Palutena's default moveset

[PHP]

I guess we could talk about forward tilt, the most useless tilt in the game (imo)

F-tilt: (HB1: 17-24) (BD: 4/6) (BKB: 43) (KBG: 65) (Angle:48°) (cannot rebound)

(HB2: 25-39) (BD: 4/6) (FAF: 68) (BKB: 43) (KBG: 100) (Angle:361°) (cannot rebound)

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Ftilt is awful

Almost any use I can think of for it is better done by another move.

Seriously the total time it takes exceeds a full second

It's like they looked at Pit's AR from Brawl and went "what if this was really, really bad?"

 

[Claxus]

I don't really know. It has about as much commitment as Forward or Down Smash, but is just a slightly lingering tilt. Yet, people roll into it all the time unharmed, sometimes they roll into it and start blocking it. I thought it could be decent at reading rolls, but apparently it's bad at that, too.

I've gotten some people by running away or past them and pivot (is this the right word?) F-Tilting. Usually after running past them. But even then, the results are lackluster, and risky.

Yeah, I don't know. Sadly, I like how the move looks, but D-Tilt and U-Tilt both do what this move could, much better and safer. About all I use it for is to clash projectiles when I want to show off. It seems to beat out most non-super projectiles in the game without canceling its own animation... it also sort of procs attacks like Arcfire and Arcthunder right in front of you so they won't hit you. If only this move became cancelable after its hitboxes, it would become an invaluable tool...

And I'm a bit late here, but for the previous discussion, I just want to add, I hardly use B-Air on stage unless it's to beat out an opponent's attack (an offensive defensive). F-Air as a whole seems much more reliable and safe, and I'm not sure how the damage formula works, but it definitely doesn't KO as well as B-Air. B-Air I think can be thrown out somewhat safely on landing, though, if it hits their shield and you're moving away, it seems to create some distance with decent shieldstun, but a lot of characters still can punish you (I do this if I think they'll dash attack or grab my landing). So F-Air in general, and B-Air for KOs and for its shield gimmick.

 

[PHP]

If it's so bad then why did they nerf it? It must do something if it was broken enough to get nerfed. I already checked if it could combo with anything. I checked all of her throws, L-cancel dair, etc. I still can't find a use for it. I've seen people roll into it and roll out without getting hit. It also seems that the first hit stops linking with the second hit at about 70% on some characters. It's not a KO move but at the same time it's less safe and has more start-up and ending lag than up and forward smash while being punishable 90% of the time, It allows for no follow ups, it can't combo with her other moves, It's a super high risk almost no reward move, It's too slow to effectively pivot with because of it's 17 frame start-up. There has to be something that we're missing I don't think Sakurai's patch team would nerf a bad move to be worse.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I feel like you have entirely too much faith in Sakurai's patch team

 

[PHP]

I feel like you have entirely too much faith in Sakurai's patch team

I don't tbh. They nerfed explosive flame in the last patch, but the I don't really use it so I'm not sure if it's good or not

I'm just saying they wouldn't nerf a bad move to be worse because they're really not stupid. They are very careful when they nerf and buff characters

EDIT: I lost 40% of my faith in that patch team in patch 1.1.0 when several of Luigi's moves were buffed and Palutena received a nerfed forward tilt and a 1% increase to fair

 

[Claxus]

I was fighting a pretty good Pikachu yesterday. They would use Thunder Jolt, and follow up with Quick Attack whenever I blocked or reflected it, or jumped over it. Since I had F-Tilt on my mind, I gave it a try. It started destroying the Thunder Jolt, and knocking them away when they used Quick Attack towards me, at the same time.

In other words... it has a vague niche of being able to destroy projectiles, while possibly hitting enemies trying to cover behind them? I imagine it would work against Luigis and Villagers, who love to run behind their projectiles all the time... Well, it's a trick that may work once or twice, and maybe make them rethink charging in with projectiles.

But really, F-Tilt doesn't have any secret behind it for getting nerfed... it's one of the worst moves in the game and that's it. It may be some sort of joke that they know it's awful but don't want to change it.

 

[kamus_aran]

Since I had F-Tilt on my mind, I gave it a try. It started destroying the Thunder Jolt, and knocking them away when they used Quick Attack towards me, at the same time.

Wow...thanks. I think this will be useful, didn't know that.

 

[PHP]

I was fighting a pretty good Pikachu yesterday. They would use Thunder Jolt, and follow up with Quick Attack whenever I blocked or reflected it, or jumped over it. Since I had F-Tilt on my mind, I gave it a try. It started destroying the Thunder Jolt, and knocking them away when they used Quick Attack towards me, at the same time.

In other words... it has a vague niche of being able to destroy projectiles, while possibly hitting enemies trying to cover behind them? I imagine it would work against Luigis and Villagers, who love to run behind their projectiles all the time... Well, it's a trick that may work once or twice, and maybe make them rethink charging in with projectiles.

But really, F-Tilt doesn't have any secret behind it for getting nerfed... it's one of the worst moves in the game and that's it. It may be some sort of joke that they know it's awful but don't want to change it.

So in the end it's absolutely useless

EDIT: so we've pretty much come to the conclusion that ftilt is 98% useless so let's just move on to her throws. This includes: forward, back, up, and down throw.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Dthrow's utility is obvious. Combo's and setting up kills off of airdodge reads.

Fthrow and Bthrow mostly exist for positioning and getting people offstage.

Uthrow's only real purpose is to -maybe- kill at 160% on a platform with rage, and maybe for better positioning to try and punish landings, either at very high percents where Dthrow follow ups stop working, or maybe when you have rage and Dthrow combos stop working for damage.

 

[PHP]

Dthrow's utility is obvious. Combo's and setting up kills off of airdodge reads.

Fthrow and Bthrow mostly exist for positioning and getting people offstage.

Uthrow's only real purpose is to -maybe- kill at 160% on a platform with rage, and maybe for better positioning to try and punish landings, either at very high percents where Dthrow follow ups stop working, or maybe when you have rage and Dthrow combos stop working for damage.

I usually use down throw combos to get percentage. At about 70% I stop using down throw and I use forward throw to do damage after I pummel them once or twice. If you mix up your throws (forward, back, and up) it can really throw your opponent off and with pummel it can really rack up % pretty quickly if you already have stage control, it also makes your opponent screw up their DI if you use down throw sparingly.

If you use forward throw + pummel to damage the opponent instead of down throw you can catch your opponent off guard at kill %s because they get into the habit of DIng up and down. This makes down throw> up air earlier to pull off.

 

[SonicNKnux]

I don't tbh. They nerfed explosive flame in the last patch, but the I don't really use it so I'm not sure if it's good or not

I'm just saying they wouldn't nerf a bad move to be worse because they're really not stupid. They are very careful when they nerf and buff characters

EDIT: I lost 40% of my faith in that patch team in patch 1.1.0 when several of Luigi's moves were buffed and Palutena received a nerfed forward tilt and a 1% increase to fair

That explosive flame BS annoyed the **** outta me when I restarted my game. My opponent deserves to be blasted out of their shield for sitting waaaaay over there instead of being able to block it; that was my reward for leaving my self wide open if I missed. If they were worried about it breaking shields they should've just toned down the shield damage like what they did with Marthcina's shield breaker. Completely killed the risk/reward fun of it.


I typically open with a long throw combo if possible:

Grab>dthrow>fair>jab>grab>dthrow>nair>uair = 40%,

Grab>dthrow>fair>regrab>dthrow>fair>jab>grab>dthrow>nair>uair = 50%, and

Grab>dthrow>fair>jab>grab>dthrow>fair>jab>grab>dthrow>nair>fair or

Jab>grab>dthrow>fair>regrab>dthrow>fair>jab>grab>pummel x1>dthrow>nair>uair = 60%

(There are many more easy variations I've found, like 48%,53%,56%; these just seem to be the most practical. I almost always land 40%, almost never land 60%, and 50% is in the middle but it's not hard to do. Don't waste time jabbing or pummeling during the second grab because you'll give your opponent time to react. For 60% you have no choice; this is why it rarely works.)

I'll then proceed to force my opponent off to one side of the stage or the other with fthrow and bthrow while using everything else (b skills, tilts, aerials, smashes for windboxes) to harass them when they try to get close.

I wait till 100~% to use smashes to kill, even then I'll use them only after my usual throw killcombos/edgeguards/reads aren't enough. Uthrow is the last resort at high percentages when they just won't die (Dedede).

 

[PHP]

I tested her throws in training mode (No rage or move stale and level 9 cup does DI) I tested her "kill throws" on an Ike
Up throw: Kills at 211%

Back throw (at the ledge) kills at 170%-180%
She doesn't have a kill throw without rage (but he is heavy so idk)

Other calculations:
(Pummel> Pummel> forward throw> AR (if it hits)= 24%)
gives Palutena stage control and allows for a potential edge guard also allows a safe way to get damage on the opponent

Pummel> Pummel> down throw> nair> up air= 31% (bread and butter low % combo)

(Pummel> Pummel> back throw> AR [if it hits] 25%)

most of the time your opponent will jump away, but I really haven't experimented with back throw at low %/ neutral, however it does have less BKB than forward and up throw so it needs to be played around with

(Pummel> Pummel> up throw = 15%)

could kill if your opponent is expecting to get forward thrown off stage (if they DI upward) but pivot back throw is almost always the better option if you're going for a kill, it does more damage if it doesn't, and gives Palutena stage control

(Pummel> Pummel> bair = 18%)

(Jab> down throw> short hop fair fast fall> jab> regrab> down throw> nair> AR [ if it hits ] = 44%) ( if used with back throw it could hit 54% )

My personal favorite ( jab> down throw> short hop nair fast fall> regrab> [repeat] ~%) only works at low% but its an easy way to quickly rack up damage. if this forced your opponent to hard fall this would be god like. It's damage output is dependent on how many times you can pull it off

That explosive flame BS annoyed the **** outta me when I restarted my game. My opponent deserves to be blasted out of their shield for sitting waaaaay over there instead of being able to block it; that was my reward for leaving my self wide open if I missed. If they were worried about it breaking shields they should've just toned down the shield damage like what they did with Marthcina's shield breaker. Completely killed the risk/reward fun of it.


I typically open with a long throw combo if possible:

Grab>dthrow>fair>jab>grab>dthrow>nair>uair = 40%,

Grab>dthrow>fair>regrab>dthrow>fair>jab>grab>dthrow>nair>uair = 50%, and

Grab>dthrow>fair>jab>grab>dthrow>fair>jab>grab>dthrow>nair>fair or

Jab>grab>dthrow>fair>regrab>dthrow>fair>jab>grab>pummel x1>dthrow>nair>uair = 60%

(There are many more easy variations I've found, like 48%,53%,56%; these just seem to be the most practical. I almost always land 40%, almost never land 60%, and 50% is in the middle but it's not hard to do. Don't waste time jabbing or pummeling during the second grab because you'll give your opponent time to react. For 60% you have no choice; this is why it rarely works.)

I'll then proceed to force my opponent off to one side of the stage or the other with fthrow and bthrow while using everything else (b skills, tilts, aerials, smashes for windboxes) to harass them when they try to get close.

I wait till 100~% to use smashes to kill, even then I'll use them only after my usual throw killcombos/edgeguards/reads aren't enough. Uthrow is the last resort at high percentages when they just won't die (Dedede).

EF is dead to now, but it can be thrown out in neutral but it's worse than it was before. This is forward tilt all over again "making bad moves worse"

 

[Claxus]

My favorite combo at super early percents is Down Throw > FF Canceled N-Air > U-Tilt - Up Smash.

I have no idea how practical it is, but I've done it a lot on For Glory. And For Glory is... For Glory.

As for throws, Down Throw is pretty much all Palutena needs, it's just that good and versatile. Though at higher percents, Down Throw combos become impossible, so I use Forward or Back Throw to get them off-stage at that point (although Down Throw at the edge, bait them to try and dodge a F-Air, then D-Air punish is the best). Against mid to light weights, Back Throw is a decent KO move, especially with some rage. Palutena is pretty decent at racking up high percentages without KOing, so having a 160%~ KO throw isn't too bad, and can really finish pesky opponents who know how to avoid all your KO options, since grabs are... easy KOs.

Forward Throw isn't too bad in setting up stuff if you want to mix it up, and there is the classic Autoreticle follow-up that can disable an air jump. Up Throw I only really use once they're at 90%+, rarely. It does get them in a pretty dangerous position to get KO'd by U-Air, but it launches them way too far that they have a lot of options to avoid it. Some characters have a harder time falling to stage safely than others, so that's worth considering.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

My favorite combo at super early percents is Down Throw > FF Canceled N-Air > U-Tilt - Up Smash.

I have no idea how practical it is, but I've done it a lot on For Glory. And For Glory is... For Glory.

Not very practical at all, if I'm understanding correctly.The move has 20 frames of landing lag and if you cancel it out before the last hit they have plenty of time to punish you for it. I sometimes scrub check with it as a combo breaker but if you land in the middle of hitting the move pretty much any character can make you regret it.

 

[PHP]

As awesome as that combo soundi

My favorite combo at super early percents is Down Throw > FF Canceled N-Air > U-Tilt - Up Smash.

I have no idea how practical it is, but I've done it a lot on For Glory. And For Glory is... For Glory.

As for throws, Down Throw is pretty much all Palutena needs, it's just that good and versatile. Though at higher percents, Down Throw combos become impossible, so I use Forward or Back Throw to get them off-stage at that point (although Down Throw at the edge, bait them to try and dodge a F-Air, then D-Air punish is the best). Against mid to light weights, Back Throw is a decent KO move, especially with some rage. Palutena is pretty decent at racking up high percentages without KOing, so having a 160%~ KO throw isn't too bad, and can really finish pesky opponents who know how to avoid all your KO options, since grabs are... easy KOs.

Forward Throw isn't too bad in setting up stuff if you want to mix it up, and there is the classic Autoreticle follow-up that can disable an air jump. Up Throw I only really use once they're at 90%+, rarely. It does get them in a pretty dangerous position to get KO'd by U-Air, but it launches them way too far that they have a lot of options to avoid it. Some characters have a harder time falling to stage safely than others, so that's worth considering.

As awesome as that combo sounds (I'm dying to see how it works) I think there's too big of a window to pull that off on a high level playing with 20 LL frames and up tilt start-up but I'll give it a shot (it sounds sick)

Also, everyone expects Palutena to down throw so I use forward throw twice then down throw to catch them DIng up/down

Down throw> frame cancel dair> bair is also possible you should give it a try.

 

[Claxus]

Yeah, I didn't mean the combo as a reliable thing (N-Air into anything is already iffy, let alone U-Tlt), but it's just some cool chain of attacks she's capable of doing under ideal circumstances, and my favorite thing to pull off with her. But I was wondering if there was a way to make the opponent react favorably to that. As long as you can get the U-Tilt out of it, it works pretty cool.

Which reminds me, something else you can do at low percentages, you can do after Down Throw > Short Hop F-Air > Fast Fall > U-Tilt > Up Smash. This is what I like to go for if my opponent likes to attack me out of my Down Throw > F-Air > Jab resets. U-Tilt will low-profile and beat their attack.

Oh, and this is just a basic tip, but chasing an opponent after Forward Throw on stage does put them in a pretty bad spot. Most of the time they have to either air dodge, attack you, or air jump in a very unfavorable position.

 

[PHP]

Up throw: Too much bkg to be a combo throw, too little kbg to be a kill throw.

Down throw: hoo haa

Forward throw: stage control in a throw

Back throw: not a kill and needs buffs, but it does do a nice 10%

We should talk about the more useful tilts
Down tilt: (14-24) (FAF: 40) (BD: 8.5) (Angle: 361°/70°) (BKB: 40/38) (KBG: 100) (cannot rebound)

Up tilt: (HB: 10-41) (rehit rate of 5 [7 times total]) (FAF: 68) (BD: 1.2 [last hit] 2.5) (angle: 366/190/366[last hit]85°) (BKB: 20/30/50[last hit]60) (KBG:100[last hit]100) (cannot rebound) (9% total)

Down tilt is a useful at the ledge option. At the ledge it cat KO at about 140% it's good at catching spot dodges too

Up tilt KOs at about 150% (Shulk) with DI. Needs a buffs in my opinion, but it's a great anti air with amazing priority.

They do everything forward tilt does better. They really need to buff that lame excuse of a tilt

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Utilt is her most useful tilt because it's niche is not filled well by anything else. It's amazing as an antiair because of how small it makes her hurtbox an how meaty it is. The pseudo-combo out of jab is useful as a last ditch effort kill when Dash attack is stale, too, or to punish some ambiguous landings that Dsmash is too slow for, since it hits both sides.

Dtilt is... not the worst. It's been buffed a couple of times, and it makes a more reliable/safer ledge re-grab punish than Usmash or aerials. It's absolutely 100% required against a crouching Kirby. It's not bad as coverage against fast characters like Sonic/Fox when you don't think you can time other stuff well enough. All in all it's an unimpressive move, but unlike Ftilt I find myself occasionally hitting this button on purpose. If it set anything up or came out faster it could be pretty good.

 

[Claxus]

D-Tilt is decent. It is relatively quick in startup and endlag (for Palutena) and has better range than her jab. It can sort of keep opponents wary of the ground in front of you if you use it for spacing. And like already mentioned, it's easy to catch spot-dodging with it, as well as can hit ledge-stallers.

U-Tilt is pretty much the best, despite it being so situational. Amazing low-profile, making the attack beat virtually anything that comes from the air. If you can force them to land near you and use it, since it's meaty, it will always hit. It will beat a ton of attacks point blank to your left or right, too. At lower percentages, it combos into Up Smash (DI may or may not make it escapeable), and higher percentages set up decent aerial chasing. And it's a late KO option. Use it when the opponent is hanging on the ledge. If they jump, it will catch them. If they get up, it will (usually) catch them). If they try to roll past you, it will catch them. Awesome. But it needs good timing and positioning, and is punishable if it whiffs. That's why you add D-Tilt into the mix, and between the two, they have to struggle with their ledge options.

 

[PHP]

Up tilt is about as useful as forward tilt is useless. It's great at catching spot dodges as well, has amazing priority, and makes her hurtbox smaller. however it has a bit of end lag that makes it a little punishable but it's pros outweighs it's cons.

Down tilt is decently fast and recovery time is short. It catches rolls and is disjointed and ranged. Even though it was buffed to hit opponents off ledges it is still bad at gimping (apparently it misses if you're too close or too far so it more effective to just go for a ledge trump). At higher %s however, it because a threat at the ledge because it is a potential kill move. 120-140% it can KO at the ledge which makes it a decent kill move at higher % because of its linger frames.

The next move we should talk about should be Palutena's jab and rapid jab

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Jab makes this poor character somewhat functional. Praise be to jab.

It's very disjointed for a jab, combos into grab on most characters (curse you, fast fallers!), can chain into itself later on, and sets up for a ton of cheeky stuff if your opponent isn't looking for it at later percents. It's a great poke in neutral against the characters you can combo out of it; a relatively quick, safe, disjointed move that leads into combos and setups? Yes please.

That all said, at eight frames, I sort of wish we had a faster jab to use in CQC and this move's utiity was moved to ftilt and ftilt was banished to the depths of the underworld for all eternity.

Rapid jab serves mostly to cover whiffed/spotdodged jabs and to get more damage out of jab against characters you can't grab. 'sokay.

 

[SonicNKnux]

That all said, at eight frames, I sort of wish we had a faster jab to use in CQC and this move's utiity was moved to ftilt and ftilt was banished to the depths of the underworld for all eternity.

Ikr, I swear I use jab to halt aerial assaults more than ftilt now. Ftilt works if they just flat-out run or attack into it, but there are some characters with good enough rolls like Shiek or Charizard (who I believe are second to Samus in terms of distance covered) that they can roll before reaching the staff and slide past and behind me.

 

[PHP]

(I use jab so much that I'm surprised when it hits 3%) her jab is fast enough to juggle, I've juggled someone with 6 neutral jabs before because they burned their second jump trying to escape. Her jab also has great priority and is decently safe on block her multi jab is disjointed enough to be spaced. The flaws with the jab is it's abnormal amount of ending lag for a jab, and her multi jab has a weird blind spot that's close to her body but it rarely plays a factor. The most significant flaw is the fact that short characters with good couches (pikachu, g&w, Kirby, jigs) can almost avoided her jab completely/ or easily fall out of it by DIng downward.
Overall it's a very solid move I just wish it had less end lag.

Jab1: (HB: 8-10) (FAF: 26) (BD: 3%)

Rapid jab believe it or not is a great ledge guarding tool especially with platforms which makes it safer if whifed. It clashes or straight up beats ledge attack because it's so disjointed that it can hit the opponent before their hitbox comes out. It's also great at adding on damage (I average ~15%) and punishing spot dodges. If you manage to multi jab someone when they're off the ledge it's better to jab them as long as possible, in this situation you can do 1 or 2 things:

1: multi jab until the fall out of it and ledge guard

2: use the final hit and ledge guard

 

[PHP]

Soooooo...has anyone seen the lagless ledge getup video? It seems that Palutena (and a few other characters) can use a new tech that cancels all lag from ledge get up, however the method sacrifices invincibility for speed. This allows standing grab, tilts, jabs, and smashes to play a factor at the ledge. This is pretty significant if you ask me

 

[kmpyj]

Soooooo...has anyone seen the lagless ledge getup video? It seems that Palutena (and a few other characters) can use a new tech that cancels all lag from ledge get up, however the method sacrifices invincibility for speed. This allows standing grab, tilts, jabs, and smashes to play a factor at the ledge. This is pretty significant if you ask me

This is pretty interesting. I'll have to look into it when I get off work.

 

[wpwood]

A little late on this but, speaking of AR jab lock could we L-cancel dair > Footstool > AR jab lock > choose smash follow up or could we possibly do it twice at lower %? I just thought of this and the only reason this won't work is the start up of AR and the angle it can be fired at. Even if we cannot combo into footstool I will work with a jumping cpu and see if that works. I will try testing this when I get home latter today and will come back and let you guys know. Unless one of you has the time today to test it for us.

Note dair can catch rolls when done out of a short hop. It could be a could way to set up for this and if this doesn't work it's still a good coverage option.

Well it pains me to say that dair cannot be used to combo into AR jab lock, but I was able to combo into footstool. The problem was AR. AR either didn't have a wide enough angle to lock on or if it did it wouldn't come out fast enough. I tested this on C. Falcon and AR wouldn't lock on to him after footstool so I switched to DK and AR would lock on but it wouldn't reach DK fast enough. Maybe there is something we could learn to do with a footstool, but idk.

 

[PHP]

A little late on this but, speaking of AR jab lock could we L-cancel dair > Footstool > AR jab lock > choose smash follow up or could we possibly do it twice at lower %? I just thought of this and the only reason this won't work is the start up of AR and the angle it can be fired at. Even if we cannot combo into footstool I will work with a jumping cpu and see if that works. I will try testing this when I get home latter today and will come back and let you guys know. Unless one of you has the time today to test it for us.

Note dair can catch rolls when done out of a short hop. It could be a could way to set up for this and if this doesn't work it's still a good coverage option.

Well it pains me to say that dair cannot be used to combo into AR jab lock, but I was able to combo into footstool. The problem was AR. AR either didn't have a wide enough angle to lock on or if it did it wouldn't come out fast enough. I tested this on C. Falcon and AR wouldn't lock on to him after footstool so I switched to DK and AR would lock on but it wouldn't reach DK fast enough. Maybe there is something we could learn to do with a footstool, but idk.

AR is way too slow in general. Frame 30!? Seriously that is literally a half a second of start up, not only that but it's vertical lock on is absolutely trash

wpwood the footstool>AR only works on Bowser at 150% it's stupid but true. Unless AR gets buffed it will always be a lackluster zoning tool

On a further note we still have nair to talk about. I can't believe it's been weeks since we've talked about Palutena tech

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Nair serves three purposes in my game: comboing people who try to DI in to stop me from getting Dthrow -> SH Fair, Harassing people on platforms, and making offstage Falcons wish they had picked a different character.

Really though, it's gimp potential is fantastic below the ledge. It's active as all get out, and the 1% hitboxes don't send people anywhere so they generally lose height when hit. It also has stage-spike potential, but we tech those etc.

Sometimes I use it while landing but that's not a good idea and I shouldn't do it.

 

[PHP]

Nair serves three purposes in my game: comboing people who try to DI in to stop me from getting Dthrow -> SH Fair, Harassing people on platforms, and making offstage Falcons wish they had picked a different character.

Really though, it's gimp potential is fantastic below the ledge. It's active as all get out, and the 1% hitboxes don't send people anywhere so they generally lose height when hit. It also has stage-spike potential, but we tech those etc.

Sometimes I use it while landing but that's not a good idea and I shouldn't do it.

It should also be noted that when it clashes with some up specials (Ex: captain falcon) it will spike them downwards.
This move also has low priority so you have to take note of which aerial moves/ special out prioritize such as Marth's up b and fair.
Landing with this move is not a good idea

 

[wpwood]

Nair is good for edge guarding, but I prefer practice hitting dair, but if I will most likely not hit dair I'll use nair. Making use of dair even if it is only 1 frame is very useful. There are situations where dair is better because dair will kill where nair won't. Everything about nair I think has been covered. It's a simple move with simple uses, but it's good at it.

 

[PHP]

Dair needs to be buffed...it's that simple
It would be a good move if it had a wider hit box with multiple active hitboxes, but that it can't be used as a combo starter or finisher because of its lag.

The only combo potential it has is when it's F-canceled

And it's unsafe on shield (even when it's frame cancled

 

[wpwood]

I'm gonna hold my tong on any buffs until December. If Palutena gets a good Christmas gift from Nintendo, there might not be a need for buffs. However if her Christmas gift isn't that good, I'll be calling for her customs to be available to buff her.

 

[PHP]

I'm gonna hold my tong on any buffs until December. If Palutena gets a good Christmas gift from Nintendo, there might not be a need for buffs. However if her Christmas gift isn't that good, I'll be calling for her customs to be available to buff her.

Like I said earlier, she wouldn't need that many buffs if lightweight was on the default set. She would have kill confirms and mobility. Looking at her frame data she's basically Shulk without his monado and less range. Imo I think lightweight was going to be on her default set but for WHATEVER reason they gave her the worst counter in the game. If lightweight was put on her default set she would be more beneficial than all of her buffs to date

 

[wpwood]

Like I said earlier, she wouldn't need that many buffs if lightweight was on the default set. She would have kill confirms and mobility. Looking at her frame data she's basically Shulk without his monado and less range. Imo I think lightweight was going to be on her default set but for WHATEVER reason they gave her the worst counter in the game. If lightweight was put on her default set she would be more beneficial than all of her buffs to date

I have been saying that for so long. I just wish people other than Palutena mains would see it that way, but without a statement from anyone on the dev team or Sakurai himself, I don't think anyone else will think that even if we give a good reason.

 

[PHP]

So what moves have we not talked about?...up air? Well...it's a kill move...that's about it

 

[wpwood]

So what moves have we not talked about?...up air? Well...it's a kill move...that's about it

Forward throw, up throw, RB set ups? IDK. I much prefer custom talks honestly. So much fun to find new custom tech and options, but that's only because more options exist with customs. I'm gonna try again at convincing people to allow custom Palutena with one set once I finish this next paper(?) on it. Gonna try a different approach other than frame data since that didn't seem to work as well as I had hoped. Maybe combine the 2 into 1 argument.

But enough about that have we talked about what to do out of ledge cancel warp. When should we do what? Should we ledge cancel warp if the opponent is too close? How to mix it up? Stuff like that, unless it's already been discussed elsewhere.

 

[PHP]

No we haven't, but pretty much everyone can agree that it's more flashy than useful

 

[wpwood]

Yeah and so is SWAG walking, but it has it's uses. Ledge cancel warp to dair, bair or nair is great. Dair can kill, bair is invincible, and nair is a lot of hit boxes. However niche a tool may be Palutena can not afford to pass it up. Also mixing up location with warp is nice like instead of going for a platform go for the ledge or something. Use warp to escape combos are something. use ledge cancel warp to get follow ups. Palutena does have a slide when she teleports into the stage if the full range of the move wasn't used going down. There's a lot of unexplored stuff with warp and it would help to know it, unless we can get the rules changed to allow Palutena 1 custom set. If that happens, screw warp; jump glide here I come.

 

[PHP]

Although the ledge cancel warp has it's uses I rarely use it myself. It's only useful if you're using it for edge guarding but most of the time waiting to see which get up option your opponent uses is overall better. Jump glide can be played with more than warp, but this discussion thread is default set only. Btw, warp SUCKS when it comes to breaking out of combos. (Am I the only one who finds it stupid that she doesn't have startup invincibility while Sheik does?) It's better to just air dodge if you want to avoid getting hit, trying to use warp to escape combos will result in you getting spiked by Mario's fair