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Palutena's default moveset

Which of Palutena's special moves (of the default set) do you find viable?


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PHP

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Okay, we all know that Palutena's default moveset is extremely lacking. She's basically a defensive character that can't play defensive. So I was wondering if as Palutena mains we could make use of this set, or rather work together to find tech that has yet to be discovered. Please keep this thread discussion focused on the default set only and not customs (unless they become legal in tournaments) The default set includes
  • Auto reticle
  • Reflect
  • Warp
  • Counter.
lets work together to make out character look good (^_^)/...or at least better (^_^ )
 

MysteriousSilver

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Everyone already knows about warp cancels, which are an amazing tool in the very limited situations where they can be performed. Warp is also generally a pretty good recovery, can regain you stage control (though this is dangerous against fast characters) and a good tool for getting your feet back on the ground.

In the general thread, I mentioned poking people through shields with the unblockable bit of Reflect when they're on platforms. This isn't really great by itself, but encourages them to take action instead of sitting safely in shield in those situations. We basically have the world's worst air grab, but it -is- more or less an air grab. Also auto-gimps little mac's side-B. Of course, it's also a decent reflector, and has some level of safety to it since it will push away many physical attacks, too, though it won't protect us from powerful/charged projectiles on landing the way many others will because they can travel under it. It makes the Villager matchup pretty workable.

AR is a passable long range poke, can't be powershielded, can't be reflected back at you, punishes/beats many projectiles, can kill a second jump in some situations offstage, jab locks/resets, punishes roll away on some characters/distances, but is awful as a traditional projectile. Strictly speaking it forces approach against characters who have no real way to deal with projectiles (Ganon, etc.) Starting positions on Smashville are almost exactly AR's max range, so against many characters hitting B as soon as the match starts is free, and if they aren't ready for it, a 9% lead is a good start.

Counter is bad, but can net you gimmick kills and is a surprise hail-Mary option on landing.

Generally though, I tend to think of Palu's best tools as her A moves.
 

PHP

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As cool as the jab resets with her neutral b are it's near impossible to land them because of all the startup. I even tried to find a successful was to do that in training mode all I could find was:
Down throw> AR: but for this to work your opponent would literally have to put his/her controller down

Down tilt> AR: but AR's startup doesn't allow it to hit the opponent before they roll (if it even locks on)

Reflect going through shield makes it very good against edge guard because it pushes the opponent and makes it easier to safety recover, but using this offensively doesn't work out because you can't react out of it. Hitting someone onstage does stall them
In the air but you can't follow up. The end lag really makes me question how effective reflect really is because you're left more valuable after using it

Warp is actually pretty useful for mix ups. Full hop> warp towards the stage tricks even top players from what I've seen it basically forces them to guess which direction you're going to slide in so it does have great defensive prowess (better than reflect).

Counter is just pure **** (just look at its bkb). It sucks at getting out of pressure, it sucks at countering In general, and is almost always the worst option. On thing to note about it though is the fact that it won't stall in the air if you're falling but will stall if you're raising which can probably be used edge guard or just stalling/ not stalling your landing. This counter seems to only be useful on landing and nothing else. (Even celestial firework does a better job at countering, not to mention that counter is the worst of all of her down bs)

If anyone finds any future tech please post it
 
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MysteriousSilver

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I think the most reliable way to get the reset is off of a footstool, but of course setting that up can be a trick. Something I should work on.
 

PHP

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I think the most reliable way to get the reset is off of a footstool, but of course setting that up can be a trick. Something I should work on.
But AR's lock on is bad so that's also ineffective

Oh! You can use the floatyness of counter to stall in the air
 
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Kathuzada

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I don't think AR is the viable because of how easy it is to be avoided. That said using it while you are falling does cover more ground which can on occasion be useful
 

Lakuto

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Against fast fallers, Fair to AR is pretty much ok for jablock if the opponent misses the tech. To do so you have to follow the Fair with a Run SH AR. It's start working at around 35%. After the reset you can punish with a Jump-Cancelled UpSmash for extra damage.

I tested this in training and I was even able to kill a Fox starting the combo at 60-65%. The only thing is that around 50-60%, it becomes way easier to tech or even jump out after the Fair.

Anyway, it still does a good 30% assuming you go for an UpSmash after the lock. Not easy to pull out but not impossible.
 
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3DS999

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I still think Warp is the most reliable one, reasons why I think stages with platforms are better for her.


As for AR, resets with it doesnt seem very reliable, because of how situational the move is. Using it along with b reverse and wavebounce has worked well for me many times. The counter is self explanatory. (Btw PHP, im Nine)
 

PHP

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I still think Warp is the most reliable one, reasons why I think stages with platforms are better for her.


As for AR, resets with it doesnt seem very reliable, because of how situational the move is. Using it along with b reverse and wavebounce has worked well for me many times. The counter is self explanatory. (Btw PHP, im Nine)
Do you think stalling someone in the air with reflect is a good option?
 

3DS999

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Do you think stalling someone in the air with reflect is a good option?
Honestly yes, I dont do it anymore because of how tricky it is, but I used to shorthop and side b when an opponent was airborn, most of the times, i could bait out an airdodge or a nair, in both cases, since the Barrier pushed them at the right distance I was able to punish with an fsmash, only the sourspot tho.
 

PHP

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Honestly yes, I dont do it anymore because of how tricky it is, but I used to shorthop and side b when an opponent was airborn, most of the times, i could bait out an airdodge or a nair, in both cases, since the Barrier pushed them at the right distance I was able to punish with an fsmash, only the sourspot tho.
Can you do it with down smash too? The sour spots sends the opponent horizontally and in some cases KOs
 

3DS999

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Can you do it with down smash too? The sour spots sends the opponent horizontally and in some cases KOs

Pretty sure ive done it too, but most of the time I used fsmash because of the damage and angle and it seems more reliable
 

PHP

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The kb that reflect has when your opponent is at 200% is so perfect.
Well it's quite obvious that warp is best used on platform stages (Battle field, dreamland, smashvill, etc.) But can it be used after throws and such for mix ups?
 

TheRealPalutena

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Things i'm currently trying to implement and how I feel about her specials:

Warp : I personally don't warp cancel TOO MUCH even on stages with lots of ledges. It can become very predictable if you do it too much and I generally use it sparingly as a mobility option or to surprise ledge trump or falling Nair/bair Offstage. But even then its really just shenanigans at best. Warp is good overall I think though. I don't mind it at all

Counter: Right now I'm trying to figure out is countering recoveries a reliable option for edgeguarding some characters. It seems to work on recoveries like Link/Tink pretty well. But when I tried it against ness it kinda just whiffs even though u counter the recovery and puts you in a bad position for no reason. Counter is REALLY REALLY bad IMO...though i'm trying to implement some reliable use for it somehow.

Reflect is...ok...I kinda just wish it wasn't so bad when falling. What i've been doing recently is when I get knocked FAR offstage I reflect the oppsite direction to have my back turned so that I can Bair anyone trying to edge-guard me. That and the unblockables when opponent is on Platforms is nice I guess..even tho we don't get much from it :(

Auto reticle is...meh...It has it uses but very situational good ones...Can't think of many advances uses for it :(
 

MysteriousSilver

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The kb that reflect has when your opponent is at 200% is so perfect.
Well it's quite obvious that warp is best used on platform stages (Battle field, dreamland, smashvill, etc.) But can it be used after throws and such for mix ups?
I don't really think so. Thanks to the cooldown, unless you're canceling it it's really just faster to run where ever you're going, and pretty much after throws you're either going to want to do a proper followup (from dthrow) or position yourself for an edgeguard (fthrow/bthrow). I guess it has some extremely niche offensive use in surprise edgeguards from ledge canceling it.
 

PHP

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Has anyone tried forward throw> warp> (insert follow-up)?

Back throw (low%)> warp> (insert follow-up)?

I think it can be of some usage. Back throw could lead to follow ups at low% I just haven't worked on it yet.

And is there any kill set-ups into forward smash or down smash?

I don't really think so. Thanks to the cooldown, unless you're canceling it it's really just faster to run where ever you're going, and pretty much after throws you're either going to want to do a proper followup (from dthrow) or position yourself for an edgeguard (fthrow/bthrow). I guess it has some extremely niche offensive use in surprise edgeguards from ledge canceling it.
I think if you're ledge canceling it it can serve as a great defensive option more than offensive because (unlike Sheik) Palutena's warp doesn't have startup invincibility. It could possibly be used for retreats

Things i'm currently trying to implement and how I feel about her specials:

Warp : I personally don't warp cancel TOO MUCH even on stages with lots of ledges. It can become very predictable if you do it too much and I generally use it sparingly as a mobility option or to surprise ledge trump or falling Nair/bair Offstage. But even then its really just shenanigans at best. Warp is good overall I think though. I don't mind it at all

Counter: Right now I'm trying to figure out is countering recoveries a reliable option for edgeguarding some characters. It seems to work on recoveries like Link/Tink pretty well. But when I tried it against ness it kinda just whiffs even though u counter the recovery and puts you in a bad position for no reason. Counter is REALLY REALLY bad IMO...though i'm trying to implement some reliable use for it somehow.

Reflect is...ok...I kinda just wish it wasn't so bad when falling. What i've been doing recently is when I get knocked FAR offstage I reflect the oppsite direction to have my back turned so that I can Bair anyone trying to edge-guard me. That and the unblockables when opponent is on Platforms is nice I guess..even tho we don't get much from it :(

Auto reticle is...meh...It has it uses but very situational good ones...Can't think of many advances uses for it :(
Personally I don't think her counter is supposed to be used like other counter. It does more damage than others, BUT has more start-up and a horizontal hit box. I think it's used after fair in low %s like down throw> fair> counter to catch sex kicks and retaliation after one of her combos

I also think reflect is extremely lacking. It's a good/ bad reflector. It comes our reasonably fast but it has end lag for days. It hits through shield, but it has so much end lag and not enough push that this is punishable. You can use it on people who like to shield at the edge though

I think surprise pivot AR is better because it's unexpected. If the marker followed the opponent before firing and it had more range this move would actually be good. Forward throw> AR is the only time I use it.

Warp should be used defensively because of it's landing lag. Try short hop> warp (downwards on the stage) for movement options and retreating. It can also be used to land safety
 
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TheRealPalutena

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Personally I don't think her counter is supposed to be used like other counter. It does more damage than others, BUT has more start-up and a horizontal hit box. I think it's used after fair in low %s like down throw> fair> counter to catch sex kicks and retaliation after one of her combos

I also think reflect is extremely lacking. It's a good/ bad reflector. It comes our reasonably fast but it has end lag for days. It hits through shield, but it has so much end lag and not enough push that this is punishable. You can use it on people who like to shield at the edge though

I think surprise pivot AR is better because it's unexpected. If the marker followed the opponent before firing and it had more range this move would actually be good. Forward throw> AR is the only time I use it.

Warp should be used defensively because of it's landing lag. Try short hop> warp (downwards on the stage) for movement options and retreating. It can also be used to land safety
Only reason why I don't use counter like that is because you can just block and punish. Much more reliable and safer.

Reflector on stage is punishable ON HIT. So yea...edge reflect + on platforms is really only offensive way to use it IMO.

AR is like semi-decent in certain matchups. Some matchups you just don't wanna do AR unless its just super free (like Fthrow as you mentioned).
 

PHP

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Only reason why I don't use counter like that is because you can just block and punish. Much more reliable and safer.

Reflector on stage is punishable ON HIT. So yea...edge reflect + on platforms is really only offensive way to use it IMO.

AR is like semi-decent in certain matchups. Some matchups you just don't wanna do AR unless its just super free (like Fthrow as you mentioned).
 

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TheRealPalutena

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Oh u meant when your higher in the air like that. Never really tried that..i usually just use a Spaced F-air in situations like that. The only thing about that is "what if they don't attack?" Granted if your playing an opponent who loves to attack after stuff like that or you make a read...Then yea >.<
 

RANDOM_Stranger

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Warp: The best up speciall she has IMO. Not becaus of warp canceling which is also nice. But becaus it has more functions. Sure, Angel Glide and Rocket Jump has there ups. But Warp could be more than recovering from being knocked out from stage. If you got knocked up and is on your way down. You could teleport almost anywhere on the stage. And if the enemy is jumping at you, you will teleport to safety while your opponent is on there way down. And if you think your not safe like, near the edge, you can teleport behind the opponent if he/she is on there way to attack.

Auto reticle: Not really good, but also not that terrible. The opponent can avoid it very easily. Soo use it only if you know the opponent can't punish you. Like let say, edgeguarding. However, it's a pretty decent tool to lock the opponent. However, becaus of the slow startup, you must have fast reflexes. I really want it to be able to lock on the targets even if they dodge it. And of course, better frame data. It would also be cool if it could lock on more than one target.

Reflect: Usefull or not depending on the opponent. If the opponent use projectiles (Samus, Megaman etc.) It's usefull. If against someone that doesn't use projectiles (Capt. Falcon, Little Mac etc.), it's useless.

Counter: Not only do I think counters are not that good, but this counter is THE worst counter in the game. Sakurai, please. Remove it. Only use this one against moves like Falcon punch and Warlock punch.
 

PHP

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Oh u meant when your higher in the air like that. Never really tried that..i usually just use a Spaced F-air in situations like that. The only thing about that is "what if they don't attack?" Granted if your playing an opponent who loves to attack after stuff like that or you make a read...Then yea >.<
Raising counter stalls you in the air. I think the end lag is done before you touch the ground

Warp: The best up speciall she has IMO. Not becaus of warp canceling which is also nice. But becaus it has more functions. Sure, Angel Glide and Rocket Jump has there ups. But Warp could be more than recovering from being knocked out from stage. If you got knocked up and is on your way down. You could teleport almost anywhere on the stage. And if the enemy is jumping at you, you will teleport to safety while your opponent is on there way down. And if you think your not safe like, near the edge, you can teleport behind the opponent if he/she is on there way to attack.

Auto reticle: Not really good, but also not that terrible. The opponent can avoid it very easily. Soo use it only if you know the opponent can't punish you. Like let say, edgeguarding. However, it's a pretty decent tool to lock the opponent. However, becaus of the slow startup, you must have fast reflexes. I really want it to be able to lock on the targets even if they dodge it. And of course, better frame data. It would also be cool if it could lock on more than one target.

Reflect: Usefull or not depending on the opponent. If the opponent use projectiles (Samus, Megaman etc.) It's usefull. If against someone that doesn't use projectiles (Capt. Falcon, Little Mac etc.), it's useless.

Counter: Not only do I think counters are not that good, but this counter is THE worst counter in the game. Sakurai, please. Remove it. Only use this one against moves like Falcon punch and Warlock punch.
If she had lightweight in her default set she would be much higher on the tier list. As for counter...it's only good for punishing laggy moves because it's so painfully slow. It is by far the worst counter in the game but unless lightweight replaces it after one of the future patches it's all we have to work with :/.

Oh u meant when your higher in the air like that. Never really tried that..i usually just use a Spaced F-air in situations like that. The only thing about that is "what if they don't attack?" Granted if your playing an opponent who loves to attack after stuff like that or you make a read...Then yea >.<
Do you think that counter could make a good antigimp tool?

So after a little poking around in every thread I have some interesting finds:

Short hop> air dodge> counter buffing apparently makes her counter more safe (still needs testing)

Dair lag canceling makes dair SIGNIFICANTLY safer on landing, improves reaction time, and Palutena's combo game significantly (by far the most useful find)

Counter sliding is a thing but I see little use in it (by far the most useless find)

EDIT: *frame cancel not lag cancel

haven't heard anything about Palutena's dair being able to be frame cancelled from here so I thought I should mention it.
Sadly I dont have any way of giving examples. Attempting it on a CPU would be nigh impossible, so you'll have to just practice and take my word for it. If you don't know what a frame cancel is, you should watch this video. Izaw explainsfalco's frame cancelled dair really well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spHWz-9F7cQ
Its basically the same, however I don't know if the timing is different. Palutena's dair isnt the best thing in the world but its not the worst either. It has a ton of hitstun and its doesnt have much landing lag either. Because of that things like
Dair>bair
Dair>fair
Dair>Dash attack
And dair>grab are possible.
However if your Frame cancel it many more options become available. Heres a list of what I could come up with, again I'm VERY sorry I can't give any examples. I'll be giving the %'s they work at the best

Combo's
Dair>jab 20%
Dair>grab 20%
Dair>bair (no frame cancel) 45%
Dair>fair (no frame cancel) 45%
Dair>dash attack (no frame cancel) 45%
Dair>up air 55%
Dair>nair 55%
Dair>up smash 50%
Dair>dair 50%
Dair>nair>bair 45%
All combo's were tested on Captain falcon a mid weight
(A lot of these are doable at very high % and some seem to be true combo's)

These are the combo's I could do, theres possibly even more. I encourage you guys to learn this. Dair isnt the most useful move and throwing it out certainly isnt that safe, but its still good to have more options open you know? I'll also try to give examples soon.

By: RavensArk
 
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PHP

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SonicNKnux

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Do you think stalling someone in the air with reflect is a good option?
I use it with a short hop to space since it covers more vertical range when used slightly above ground, and yeah, it works more than anyone would think. I also use it as a follow-up to dthrow, but it's not something you can throw out with extreme regularity like her fair because people will start air dodging through it. It's really just a mixup to throw people off, like leapfrogging (Jab>dair).
What i've been doing recently is when I get knocked FAR offstage I reflect the oppsite direction to have my back turned so that I can Bair anyone trying to edge-guard me.
Can't say I've tried this, probably because I keep thinking it'll act like Mewtwo/Samus's neutral-b and propel me toward the stage, and then get sad when it doesn't D:
 
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PHP

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I use it with a short hop to space since it covers more vertical range when used slightly above ground, and yeah, it works more than anyone would think. I also use it as a follow-up to dthrow, but it's not something you can throw out with extreme regularity like her fair because people will start air dodging through it. It's really just a mixup to throw people off, like leapfrogging (Jab>dair).

Can't say I've tried this, probably because I keep thinking it'll act like Mewtwo/Samus's neutral-b and propel me toward the stage, and then get sad when it doesn't D:
Does jab> dair true combo? or does it catch everybody off guard?
 

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I know I'm late to the party, but I think warp is pretty useful. I also find auto reticle useful. It's inconsistent, but still viable. When I am off stage and the opponent is trying to edge guard, I try using it. It's pretty useful if the person isn't expecting it.
 

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Does jab> dair true combo? or does it catch everybody off guard?
Since jab leads into almost everything pretty reliably, it's more of a conditioning situation. It's not true like Mario's Dthrow>utilt at low %, but it's definitely easier to land than her other Jab combos. Unless the opponent is mashing A during jab's cooldown to avoid Jab>jab or Jab>grab (Mario, Little Mac, C.Falcon), you should be able to land it often and catch people off-guard (no one sees this coming unless you spam it, and it also sets up for Bair or Nair); that said, it has its merits, but if you're able to leapfrog them consistently you should probably just go for Jab>grab combos for more damage.
 
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AeroLink_the_SoulMaster

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EDIT: AeroLink_the_SoulMaster AeroLink_the_SoulMaster do you have anything you might want to add to this thread?
I suppose I can give my input. Warp is her best special when it comes to utilization and versatility. Reflect is situational match-up wise but it does have its uses. Auto Reticle is decent in it's poking, and Counter is situational. Her whole default moveset is defensive-based. With these set of specials, her neutral game consists more of footsies with empty hops, jabs, fairs, bairs, dtilts, and even nairs. No one single move is viable in itself without it being part of a combination of moves. As for overall viability, in some matchups her default special tool-kit requires certain, occasional situations to be useful; it's not something that will be used often; therefore, it causes Palutena to rely more on her normal moves, which are limited to a few safe moves while the rest have a risk that comes with the reward. Palutena has a pretty good defensive moveset, but the characters that will give her the most trouble are fast and frame-safe.

TLDR: Warp is Palutena's most viable default special move. Her default special moveset is not enough to cover her in the most important matchups.
 

PHP

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I suppose I can give my input. Warp is her best special when it comes to utilization and versatility. Reflect is situational match-up wise but it does have its uses. Auto Reticle is decent in it's poking, and Counter is situational. Her whole default moveset is defensive-based. With these set of specials, her neutral game consists more of footsies with empty hops, jabs, fairs, bairs, dtilts, and even nairs. No one single move is viable in itself without it being part of a combination of moves. As for overall viability, in some matchups her default special tool-kit requires certain, occasional situations to be useful; it's not something that will be used often; therefore, it causes Palutena to rely more on her normal moves, which are limited to a few safe moves while the rest have a risk that comes with the reward. Palutena has a pretty good defensive moveset, but the characters that will give her the most trouble are fast and frame-safe.

TLDR: Warp is Palutena's most viable default special move. Her default special moveset is not enough to cover her in the most important matchups.
If you don't mind me asking, how would you possibly make use of counter? If you counter a low damage move (such as a jab) the attacker receives little to no kb or stun and you're likely to get punished, if you try to counter a smash attack it's still risky because of all the startup, If you do manage to counter something it's not likely to KO before 140%, And unlike Marth/Lucina it can't even be used to break combo chains. I'm just wondering what situation you would make use of this in. Lightweight master race
 

AeroLink_the_SoulMaster

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If you don't mind me asking, how would you possibly make use of counter? If you counter a low damage move (such as a jab) the attacker receives little to no kb or stun and you're likely to get punished, if you try to counter a smash attack it's still risky because of all the startup, If you do manage to counter something it's not likely to KO before 140%, And unlike Marth/Lucina it can't even be used to break combo chains. I'm just wondering what situation you would make use of this in. Lightweight master race
I hardly use the move myself, but I've seen its use when it comes to edgeguarding such as countering Roy's upB offstage, or going into someone charging a smash attack with it.
 

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Eh, it works sometimes. Sometimes you can sneak one in after whiffing an attack they think they can punish, if you think they'll go for an attack instead of a grab. Usually, after a whiffed Jab, Up Tilt, or Up Smash, maybe a missed grab. That's a little messy, though. But basically what I mean is, try to make them think you're punishable, rather than using it as a response. If they're the kind of player that likes to attack your approach, just jump in with a counter, and they'll start thinking twice about your jump-ins. Of course, it also helps sometimes against those really persistent players that like to chase you with attacks once you're in the air. All in all, it's really a lot less than stellar. The startup is a joke, the knockback is not going to KO, and the hitbox is extremely concentrated, so it whiffs even if you manage to counter, half the time. But hey, it's a counter. It's not something you'll actively use, but it's an option that's there, and played right, it can be an ace, and condition opponents against getting too offensive.

I like Reflect. It's a little slow, but it's a big wall, and shuts down campers since it can maintain constantly, with Palutena herself not risking becoming an easy target, since she can even move around during the later half of it. I like to use it to control space against people that like to grab a lot. If I can tell my opponent likes to shieldgrab aerials, I like to jump in with a Reflect on them right before I land. I think it's an interesting move, simply because of how gimmicky it is. True, it's a little pointless if your opponent has nothing to reflect, but the move also is unblockable point blank, and has that weird windbox that can push enemies back, or sort of suspend airborne opponents. I use it a lot more than I should, like, often, if there's some breathing room, and kind of just roll along with the results. If Palutena's default moveset has something going for her, it's weird tricks like this that mess with the opponent.

Autoreticle... it's okay. It's so telegraphed that it pretty much won't work as a straight attack, but it's an amazing poking an anti-camping tool. Mainly good at getting people to go offensive, or disrupting projectiles (like making Dededes cry). Between Reflect and Autoreticle, Palutena truly makes characters like Duck Hunt Dog or Villager have to play her own game.

Warp is... bleh. Ledge-canceling is cool, but it's too stage-situational (it's fine on flat stages, too, but it's a bit of a risky trick). The worst part is that it has a bit of time before ledge-snapping, a period with no invincibility. Feels like there's nothing I can do against Little Macs or Lucases waiting at the edge with Down Smash. Or anyone who can time any move against me reappearing at the edge. You can warp over and onto the stage, but it's so laggy they'll just turn around and punish that afterwards. Anyone else have this problem? It feels like a huge hindrance but I never see mention of it. On the other hand, on-stage warps can get you into favorable positions with good reads.
 

MysteriousSilver

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The worst part is that it has a bit of time before ledge-snapping, a period with no invincibility. Feels like there's nothing I can do against Little Macs or Lucases waiting at the edge with Down Smash. Or anyone who can time any move against me reappearing at the edge. You can warp over and onto the stage, but it's so laggy they'll just turn around and punish that afterwards. Anyone else have this problem? It feels like a huge hindrance but I never see mention of it. On the other hand, on-stage warps can get you into favorable positions with good reads.
This is universal. There's a two-frame window during a ledge snap where every character is vulnerable.

The best way to defend against it is to mix up when you warp to the ledge. It has some great distance, so if your positioning is on point you can do it from a huge radius from around the ledge.

I think I remember hearing there's no vulnerability if you warp down to the ledge from above but I haven't had the balls to try that
 
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Claxus

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This is universal. There's a two-frame window during a ledge snap where every character is vulnerable.

The best way to defend against it is to mix up when you warp to the ledge. It has some great distance, so if your positioning is on point you can do it from a huge radius from around the ledge.

I think I remember hearing there's no vulnerability if you warp down to the ledge from above but I haven't had the balls to try that
Hm, good to know. The other characters I play are mostly Robin and Shulk, and I've never had many problems with getting smacked away before I can ledge-snap, despite their much more linear recoveries. I've just had a lot of bad luck with it with Palutena. Her recovery still is pretty great, when I know they like to try and hit me at the edge, I usually warp completely horizontally to the edge, or at a very light angle downwards towards it, but geez, it feels dangerous. Warps in general seem so finicky sometimes.

Anyway, Reflect gimps are pretty cool, I've been toying with that a lot lately. I wonder... if you hit someone recovering towards the stage, with the unblockable hit of Reflect, could it gimp some recoveries by pushing them towards the stage and not allowing them to tech? Or maybe, away from the stage, so they just get pushed away with no vertical height, but that's more difficult. Another use I've found for Reflect is when they're hanging on a ledge, you can just throw it out, and it may push them back if they climb up normally, or mess with their jump-up. This has usually conditioned opponents to try rolling in, which of course is easily punishable.
 

PHP

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With the exception of L-cancel dair> AR jab lock has anyone found any extra use for AR? (That doesn't involve zoning)

At this point we might as well talk about Palutena's normal moves

A good place to start is fair vs bair
EDIT:
Fair: (HBA: frame 9-11)( FAF: 45 )( BD: 8% )( BKB: 30 )( KBG: 100 )( LL: 12 frames)

Bair: (HBA: frame 8-10 )( FAF: 50 )( BD: 12% )( BKB: 30 )( KBG: 92 )(LL: 16 frames)(Partial body invincibility)
 
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MysteriousSilver

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Fair's advantages are being fast on startup and cool down, making it very safe when spaced. My neutral game is basically SHFF, throwing out a bunch of these and jabs and trying to bait reactions. It's range and speed also make it pretty good offstage, though most of the time I find nair (because it's meaty) or bair (because armor) fits this niche better.

Bair of course is fantastic because of it's armor. It's also quite fast and safe, though it has less range and a little more landing lag. The move is fantastic for edgegaurding since you don't have to worry about getting hit with whatever, and a great move to use against people who are getting aggressive. I also empty hop a lot in neutral if I think they're going to run and me and bair on reaction to whatever they do. It's also great against anything being charged/slow moves because you know it'll win for free.

Both make for relatively fast OoS options but that's really only relevant on taller characters
 

PHP

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Fair's advantages are being fast on startup and cool down, making it very safe when spaced. My neutral game is basically SHFF, throwing out a bunch of these and jabs and trying to bait reactions. It's range and speed also make it pretty good offstage, though most of the time I find nair (because it's meaty) or bair (because armor) fits this niche better.

Bair of course is fantastic because of it's armor. It's also quite fast and safe, though it has less range and a little more landing lag. The move is fantastic for edgegaurding since you don't have to worry about getting hit with whatever, and a great move to use against people who are getting aggressive. I also empty hop a lot in neutral if I think they're going to run and me and bair on reaction to whatever they do. It's also great against anything being charged/slow moves because you know it'll win for free.

Both make for relatively fast OoS options but that's really only relevant on taller characters
Technically speaking if you were to not stale fair would it make a better kill move than bair at the ledge? Down throw> fair sounds easy to pull off even at high %s or is bair better because of its higher damage output? Just asking because fair and bair have the same 30 BKB, but fair has 100 KBG while bair has 92. KBG
 

MysteriousSilver

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I generally find Bair to be a more reliable kill move, though neither can be combed into at kill percents, and if you're killing with either of them on stage you've probably let the other dude live too long.

I'm always staling the hell out of fair though

I hear you can Dthrow -> RAR Bair but I haven't learned to do that yet.
 

PHP

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I generally find Bair to be a more reliable kill move, though neither can be combed into at kill percents, and if you're killing with either of them on stage you've probably let the other dude live too long.

I'm always staling the hell out of fair though

I hear you can Dthrow -> RAR Bair but I haven't learned to do that yet.
EDIT: the reason they live so long is because she has no kill setups if the opponent just DIs away

Down throw > bair is done by tapping the circle pad in the opposite direction after you down throw. It's like perfect pivot but you jump and bair afterwards

And what's thing that I've heard about removing landing lag from up air?
 
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MysteriousSilver

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I mean, I know how it's done, I jist haven't traines myself to do it yet

Uair has FAF way before it autocancels, so you can Fair after Uair to reduce your landing lag if you're up high enough
 
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