Palutena the Custom exception

[Ramzy]

While the debate on customs as a whole being legal seems to be an endless debate, we should at least make a universal exception that can be active as of any moment: Custom Palutena. Like everyone should be aware, Mii's and Palutena have all their customs unlocked from the beginning.

So two things,

1. The biggest issue keeping the customs from being legal are that they must be unlocked is generally what we seem to agree on
2. Mii's with 1111 are generally accepted in tournaments as of recently

With that said, the same time it takes to set up a default Mii, you would do the same in setting a custom Palutena.

Personally I think she should be able to be free range and use any customs the player chooses, but it might be a good idea to also for now to settle with a fair alt set-up for her i.e. 2322 or something that every tourney set up could already just have for her already.

I don't even main Palutena but it feels really unfair to punish the character whose sole uniqueness comes from her special versatility. Everyone complains her tilts are bad and in general lackluster, but shouldn't that just make us realize we're not using her as she should be used? If we wanna be so progressive with Smash 4 this is a nice step to take. Has this be fully addressed already? Lemme know what you guys think.

 

[Big-Cat]

Her sole uniqueness isn't her customs, but I digress. If we are going to ban customs, I do think that making an exception for Palutena and Miis is a reasonable exception.

 

[digiholic]

If Palutena gets special treatment, so should Miis.

However, I think everyone should have access to customs.

 

[Pink'd]

Custom move should ALWAYS be allowed. No exceptions.

...As soon as someone hacks the Wii U or finds an easy exploit.

 

[Ramzy]

Custom move should ALWAYS be allowed. No exceptions.

...As soon as someone hacks the Wii U or finds an easy exploit.

Right, that's what we majority agree on. What I'm saying is in the meantime while we haven't hacked it yet, we at least allow Palutena access to her customs. And I agree with Miis getting access to all as well, but I just personally feel Palutena has more importance.

 

[Ramzy]

Her sole uniqueness isn't her customs, but I digress. If we are going to ban customs, I do think that making an exception for Palutena and Miis is a reasonable exception.

I felt the way she was showcased in the trailer at least made it apprent her specials are a highlight of her character. Also if customs are officially banned I agree Palutena should definitely be the exception of that.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'll just add that Palutena is also the only character who has in-game tips (as seen on the loading screen) for all of her specials, not just the defaults.

 

[Big-Cat]

I felt the way she was showcased in the trailer at least made it apprent her specials are a highlight of her character. Also if customs are officially banned I agree Palutena should definitely be the exception of that.

You have a point, but Bowser Jr. or Wii Fit Trainer's trailers didn't really show off what made them unique. It's a big feature, yes, but it's not her only feature.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Or we could make then all legal and have people stop being lazy.

Easiest solution, unlock on 13DS and upload on every system.

It's so simple and every TO johns out.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'll just add that Palutena is also the only character who has in-game tips (as seen on the loading screen) for all of her specials, not just the defaults.

Mega Man does too.

Anyway, we've already solved the logistical issues of allowing customs with the current unlocking situation; you just have the popular sets pre-loaded and let users import from 3ds if they prefer unpopular sets. We've even gone to great lengths to document popular sets for every character. Why not just do that? I don't really see any reason at this point not to allow customs in general.

 

[Big-Cat]

Or we could make then all legal and have people stop being lazy.

Easiest solution, unlock on 13DS and upload on every system.

It's so simple and every TO johns out.

This reminds me. I need to go unlock the rest of them on mine just in case customs do become legal. Still think it's BS that we can't sync the customs between versions. That seems like such a basic thing to do really.

*Sigh* Sakurai always has to be difficult.

 

[mimgrim]

Her sole uniqueness isn't her customs, but I digress. If we are going to ban customs, I do think that making an exception for Palutena and Miis is a reasonable exception.

Making an exception for Miis is actually reasonable. Why? Because they don't actually require the "customs" toggle to be turned on to use any of their moves. This means you have to actually go out of your way to gimp them from what they really are in order to make it "fair" (emphasis on quotations). They are actually being gimped by the limitations they are receiving currently because of this. Customization is their whole thing, further proved by the fact that they don't require "customs" turned on for them. Palutena on the other hand, despite it being a big part of her trailer, still requires "customs" to be turned on which does, arguably, create a slippery slope because of this. However Miis don't have this issue because they don't require "customs" on in the first place.

Note: I'm just pointing out how it really is unfair to Miis with how they are being gimped by many rule-sets limiting them to 1111 average weight/height but I really do think customs should be allowed for all characters.

 

[Raijinken]

Pro-custom moves in all regards here, so naturally I support at least allowing them on Tena and Miis. Not just 1111 for the Miis, either.

 

[mega4000]

I'm sick of this kind of topics. Accept it! either everyone plays as 1111 or everyone gets their customs. It doesn't matter the tier list, the time it takes, if it is already unlock or if needs custom off/on. If most of us are forced to play as 1111, then every single character must play as 1111. I find pretty unfair that paluttena and miis want to use all their moves while I can't even touch danger wrap. If you are so desperate to plays with other move sets then start working and help everysingle people to unlock their custom moves. You should start making a video of how to unlock them legally the fastes way like the 100 crazy challenges or something because not everyone will have a 3ds and not everyone will buy a gameshark.

 

[mega4000]

Making an exception for Miis is actually reasonable. Why? Because they don't actually require the "customs" toggle to be turned on to use any of their moves. This means you have to actually go out of your way to gimp them from what they really are in order to make it "fair" (emphasis on quotations). They are actually being gimped by the limitations they are receiving currently because of this. Customization is their whole thing, further proved by the fact that they don't require "customs" turned on for them. Palutena on the other hand, despite it being a big part of her trailer, still requires "customs" to be turned on which does, arguably, create a slippery slope because of this. However Miis don't have this issue because they don't require "customs" on in the first place.

Note: I'm just pointing out how it really is unfair to Miis with how they are being gimped by many rule-sets limiting them to 1111 average weight/height but I really do think customs should be allowed for all characters.

It doesn't matter, you still have to create the character outside of the character select menu like an amiibo so that's the reason they can do that. An amiibo can use customs with custom off because is a character created outside of the character select screen and just like the amiibos, you can't use them online. Not everyone will create a mii and is not a default character and besides, why they can use every single move while we can't even touch our alternates? I'm sick of this, if you want customs in your miis then start to work on how to get everyone their customs. Either is 1111 for everyone or alternate sets for everyone.

 

[Signia]

@ mega4000

Characters with different moves can be thought of as different characters, and there's nothing stopping you from picking them. It isn't "they can use their alternates and you can't" it's "everyone can use a certain character and their alternates." Adding Palutena custom moves is just like adding more characters, so what's unfair about that? There is no "your customs" and there is no "paluttena and miis want to use all their moves while nobody else can" lol they're characters not people.

 

[mimgrim]

It doesn't matter, you still have to create the character outside of the character select menu like an amiibo so that's the reason they can do that. An amiibo can use customs with custom off because is a character created outside of the character select screen and just like the amiibos, you can't use them online. Not everyone will create a mii and is not a default character and besides, why they can use every single move while we can't even touch our alternates? I'm sick of this, if you want customs in your miis then start to work on how to get everyone their customs. Either is 1111 for everyone or alternate sets for everyone.

Get back to me when you bring up an actual intelligent reply.

 

[Raijinken]

I'm sick of this kind of topics. Accept it! either everyone plays as 1111 or everyone gets their customs. It doesn't matter the tier list, the time it takes, if it is already unlock or if needs custom off/on. If most of us are forced to play as 1111, then every single character must play as 1111. I find pretty unfair that paluttena and miis want to use all their moves while I can't even touch danger warp. If you are so desperate to plays with other move sets then start working and help everysingle people to unlock their custom moves. You should start making a video of how to unlock them legally the fastes way like the 100 crazy challenges or something because not everyone will have a 3ds and not everyone will buy a gameshark.

And thus, all customs should be legal.

Time isn't an excuse, just apply the loadouts in a format like that used in Ampharos's custom moveset project, and you'll cover most of the playerbase. Setting up a new one takes as much time as setting controls, less time than coaching or fingerwarming, etc.

Not everyone needs to do any of this. If a TO can't find one person in their area who has done enough single player to have all the customs on a console, then that's a pretty sad Smash scene right there.

There is basically no point to "start making videos of how to unlock them legally the fastest way", because it's random. You can get a lot just by doing Crazy Orders. Quick Batter+HomeRunBat equipment, bam, easy wave 15 or higher on any character. You can get them slightly slower but for specific characters via Trophy Rush. Or All Star on Hard. Several people have reported just leaving Smash Tour on afk and getting them all within a day. I'd love nothing more than for Sakurai to make them a straight-forward unlock so that people'd shut up about the effort to get them. But the effort is really minimal for the payoff, and this is coming from someone who bothered getting every move on both versions of the game, manually.

There is no reason for customs to be banned, aside from the utter laziness of parts of the community. But in these cases, there is no excuse of time commitment or anything. We've studied the currently perceived most-used setups per character. Pre-load them, and it's cake.

In response to the fairness of allowing some characters alternates and others being "stuck" with 1111: There's no reason Diddy and Sheik deserve their best specials while Miis and Palutena deserve some of their worst.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Get back to me when you bring up an actual intelligent reply.

Other than not having fully thought out the situation with a 3ds (you only need one guy to have a 3ds, not everyone), I don't know that his reply was unintelligent. I kinda agree that it's unreasonable to turn customs on, let Palutena use her stuff (really strong stuff!), and not let me use Shooting Star Bits and Luma Warp. Honestly I just want to use Shooting Star Bit and Luma Warp, and I'm totally behind everyone else getting to use their full characters too. Compromise solutions that let some people use their full characters but not all of us are pretty unpalatable. Like I know as a Mii main you want to have a real character and I get that, but I'm sure you can also see how it would be painful for someone to see you have all these awesome options to tweak your character while some of us are stuck with things like garbage default side specials. I can't in good faith lament poor low tier Rosalina since the game just isn't that way, but man, Star Bits is so garbage compared to either custom option and it's not even about improving my character (most other characters get more really) as it is making my character the most complete and entertaining version of herself to play as. Isn't it just so much better for us all to get what we want instead of only some of us?

How messy things are with the Mii Fighter (who is totally dysfunctional as a character without using the custom system) or Palutena (who has no unlocks at all, is clearly designed around her non-default moves, and requires setting customs to "ON") is to me just a good sign that it's much simpler and cleaner to make rules allowing everyone to use custom moves than any other possibility. Using full "For Glory" rules is arbitrarily banning three characters which is extremely excessive. Allowing some exceptions for a few characters is really playing a game of choosing winners and losers with the rules; if I lost to an "anything goes" Palutena or Mii Fighter main while being forced to use inferior special moves on my character I'd be a little salty. Just allowing custom specials for everyone is clean and simple; we get to allow all 51 characters in a neutral way. It also happens to be the best game.

@ Raijinken Unfortunately, you can only copy custom profiles once; if you unlock stuff on a Wii U, it can be copied to a 3ds but not further from that 3ds which makes it of pretty limited utility. Really you just need one fully unlocked 3ds for your scene, and out of an entire local scene if not one guy can make that happen either by actually doing the unlocking (like I did for the KC area) or by dropping the minor cost for that cheating device to unlock it all without work then I seriously question that local scene's commitment. Like I know that single player smash isn't for everyone and is pretty boring, but seriously, if it's not even one guy in your whole scene who can be bothered that is alarming about dedication levels...

For what it's worth, on Wii U I'm pretty sure the fastest unlock method if you intend to actually play is All Star on Hard with whichever character you have the fewest moves with. If you intend to let it take a bit longer idling either Smash Tour or 8 player smash with 8 amiibos is best. Doing it purely with idling, you should expect it to take a few weeks... which for a game we intend to play for years is still reasonable. The concerns about unlocking really are just silly at this point; it has been so thoroughly addressed.

 

[mimgrim]

Other than not having fully thought out the situation with a 3ds (you only need one guy to have a 3ds, not everyone), I don't know that his reply was unintelligent. I kinda agree that it's unreasonable to turn customs on, let Palutena use her stuff (really strong stuff!), and not let me use Shooting Star Bits and Luma Warp. Honestly I just want to use Shooting Star Bit and Luma Warp, and I'm totally behind everyone else getting to use their full characters too. Compromise solutions that let some people use their full characters but not all of us are pretty unpalatable. Like I know as a Mii main you want to have a real character and I get that, but I'm sure you can also see how it would be painful for someone to see you have all these awesome options to tweak your character while some of us are stuck with things like garbage default side specials. I can't in good faith lament poor low tier Rosalina since the game just isn't that way, but man, Star Bits is so garbage compared to either custom option and it's not even about improving my character (most other characters get more really) as it is making my character the most complete and entertaining version of herself to play as. Isn't it just so much better for us all to get what we want instead of only some of us?

The difference is that Miis do not require customs turned on. This means rules must be created in the rule-set to limit them, which is effectively banning them in all honesty, so as to keep them "in-line".

This is where the big difference comes from. For every other character you just turn "customs" on or off in the game. Miis however are not affected by this, they can have their customization with it on or off. My whole argument is about how they are handled in-game as clearly Miis are meant to be about customization even with "customs" turned off. The rules created that limit them defeat the purpose of the character and go against what the game says. It's easy for the other character because all you have to put is "customs" turned on or off in the rules, much like items. Is Peach limited by arbitary rules because she can pull out an item by random despite items being set to "none"? Every time she plucks a non-turnip does she have to throw it away? No. And any rule created that would do that would be arbitrary. This may not be the best example but I think it gets the point across.

I called his post unintelligent because of things like "Miis must be created out of the CSS" (which is bad reasoning), or how he compared them to Amiibos (which is also bad since Amiibos or AIs), not being able to use them online against randoms (which is also bad reasoning as they can still be used online against friends, I'm pretty sure the main reason the are banned in "For Fun" and "For Glory" is because of potential for offensive Miis), and the "them being able to use customs while no one else can" is also bad because the actual game says they can. Rules that deviate from what the game allows should only be created when something is considered so bad that no one like is. Miis, imo, do not fall under that.

How messy things are with the Mii Fighter (who is totally dysfunctional as a character without using the custom system) or Palutena (who has no unlocks at all, is clearly designed around her non-default moves, and requires setting customs to "ON") is to me just a good sign that it's much simpler and cleaner to make rules allowing everyone to use custom moves than any other possibility. Using full "For Glory" rules is arbitrarily banning three characters which is extremely excessive. Allowing some exceptions for a few characters is really playing a game of choosing winners and losers with the rules; if I lost to an "anything goes" Palutena or Mii Fighter main while being forced to use inferior special moves on my character I'd be a little salty. Just allowing custom specials for everyone is clean and simple; we get to allow all 51 characters in a neutral way. It also happens to be the best game.

I agree. I would rather see "customs" turned on for all characters. But I'm presuming current rule-sets in most areas of "customs" turned of and Mii's must use 1111 moves and average height/weight and that it is unfair to Mii's because the actual game says they don't need "customs" to be on for them to use their customization. I would still rather see "customs" turned on but limiting the Miis like this in a "customs" off environment is unfair to them as a character because of what the game says and isn't unfair to other characters because the game says "customs" must be turned on for them.

 

[ninrok]

Honestly I'd just like to see customs overall, but barring that, I agree with the general idea of Palutena and Mii's being able to use them.

There is basically no point to "start making videos of how to unlock them legally the fastest way", because it's random. You can get a lot just by doing Crazy Orders. Quick Batter+HomeRunBat equipment, bam, easy wave 15 or higher on any character. You can get them slightly slower but for specific characters via Trophy Rush. Or All Star on Hard. Several people have reported just leaving Smash Tour on afk and getting them all within a day.

Wait how does that work?! I need to try this. O__o

I'd been trying to get them via Trophy Rush for the longest time but I swear I have the worst luck. I kept getting freaking Sleepy Toad as Peach like 6 times in a row despite already having it in one session lol.

Really should just be purchasable in the in-game shop... but I digress.

 

[mega4000]

The difference is that Miis do not require customs turned on. This means rules must be created in the rule-set to limit them, which is effectively banning them in all honesty, so as to keep them "in-line".

This is where the big difference comes from. For every other character you just turn "customs" on or off in the game. Miis however are not affected by this, they can have their customization with it on or off. My whole argument is about how they are handled in-game as clearly Miis are meant to be about customization even with "customs" turned off. The rules created that limit them defeat the purpose of the character and go against what the game says. It's easy for the other character because all you have to put is "customs" turned on or off in the rules, much like items. Is Peach limited by arbitary rules because she can pull out an item by random despite items being set to "none"? Every time she plucks a non-turnip does she have to throw it away? No. And any rule created that would do that would be arbitrary. This may not be the best example but I think it gets the point across.

I called his post unintelligent because of things like "Miis must be created out of the CSS" (which is bad reasoning), or how he compared them to Amiibos (which is also bad since Amiibos or AIs), not being able to use them online against randoms (which is also bad reasoning as they can still be used online against friends, I'm pretty sure the main reason the are banned in "For Fun" and "For Glory" is because of potential for offensive Miis), and the "them being able to use customs while no one else can" is also bad because the actual game says they can. Rules that deviate from what the game allows should only be created when something is considered so bad that no one like is. Miis, imo, do not fall under that.



I agree. I would rather see "customs" turned on for all characters. But I'm presuming current rule-sets in most areas of "customs" turned of and Mii's must use 1111 moves and average height/weight and that it is unfair to Mii's because the actual game says they don't need "customs" to be on for them to use their customization. I would still rather see "customs" turned on but limiting the Miis like this in a "customs" off environment is unfair to them as a character because of what the game says and isn't unfair to other characters because the game says "customs" must be turned on for them.

I refuse to support any scene that allows miis or paluttena to have their alternate sets while other characters can't. Also even if they are AI's is the same principle because amiibos can bypass the custom off too. Turn a clean wii u without creating anything and you can't use miis so why the heck are you bringing this when the game wasn't designed for competitive game in the first place? if we are going by competitive rules that the game sets, that's clearly for glory and nobody wants that so yeah you can go and play with your custom miis and different heights all that you want, but don't count on me or alot of people. Apex banned and surely evo will do it too, so better start help with that community custom project or else play with 1111.
Also I didn't insult you nor I intent to offend you, but I'm allowed to have my point of view while you have yours. I play Mega Man and not being able to use danger wrap while you people use the piston punch or other moves is really unfair. Also, when you create a Mii, the game automatically gives you 1111, so don't expect any support coming from players like me if you don't help on the custom move proyect. Is either all of us or none of us.

 

[Ramzy]

It seems my point has been lost in translation.

While the debate on customs as a whole being legal seems to be an endless debate, we should at least make a universal exception that can be active as of any moment: Custom Palutena. Like everyone should be aware, Mii's and Palutena have all their customs unlocked from the beginning.

I'm not saying Palutena should be the only one allowed to use customs, I'm saying hers are readily available and we're not using them only because we don't have every custom for everyone else. I'm saying we allow Palutena's customs now (and Mii's for the sake of fairness) until we finally have a solution to having all other customs readily available. As of now every Wii U set up has instant access to that, no hacking or 3DS required.

 

[Raijinken]

Honestly I'd just like to see customs overall, but barring that, I agree with the general idea of Palutena and Mii's being able to use them.



Wait how does that work?! I need to try this. O__o

I'd been trying to get them via Trophy Rush for the longest time but I swear I have the worst luck. I kept getting freaking Sleepy Toad as Peach like 6 times in a row despite already having it in one session lol.

Really should just be purchasable in the in-game shop... but I digress.

That's hearsay from me, but if you just enter a round of Smash Tour and AFK it forever, it'll eventually force your turn constantly.

 

[ninrok]

That's hearsay from me, but if you just enter a round of Smash Tour and AFK it forever, it'll eventually force your turn constantly.

Ah, I see, thanks!

I admittedly played Smash Tour like... twice(?) on my own and wasn't really impressed, so I just went back to Trophy Rush lol. I'll have to give this a go and see if it works well enough, because if it does I'm down to give it a go for the sake of having all the customs available on my own to practice with.

If no one else locally has gotten all the customs on their 3DS, I might go ahead and finish that off instead, actually. I think I was like 1/2 done with getting them all when the Wii U version dropped. Getting them in Smash Run was at least entertaining, and alongside Trophy Rush (which I think was on there? Almost certain, haven't played in months) I was getting a decent amount of them.

 

[mimgrim]

It seems my point has been lost in translation.

I'm not saying Palutena should be the only one allowed to use customs, I'm saying hers are readily available and we're not using them only because we don't have every custom for everyone else. I'm saying we allow Palutena's customs now (and Mii's for the sake of fairness) until we finally have a solution to having all other customs readily available. As of now every Wii U set up has instant access to that, no hacking or 3DS required.

I get your point but it is slippery slope and you are using the wrong character for the face of customization.

For Palutena you have to have the "customs" toggle on which then means you have to create a rule not allowing the other 47 characters which goes directly against what the game says when "customs are turned on. Despite already having her Specials already unlocked she is still in the same situation as 47 other characters in that she requires "customs" turned on. I've already gone over why Miis are an exception.

And again. I'm all for "customs" being turned on and want it very much.

I refuse to support any scene that allows miis or paluttena to have their alternate sets while other characters can't. Also even if they are AI's is the same principle because amiibos can bypass the custom off too. Turn a clean wii u without creating anything and you can't use miis so why the heck are you bringing this when the game wasn't designed for competitive game in the first place? if we are going by competitive rules that the game sets, that's clearly for glory and nobody wants that so yeah you can go and play with your custom miis and different heights all that you want, but don't count on me or alot of people. Apex banned and surely evo will do it too, so better start help with that community custom project or else play with 1111.
Also I didn't insult you nor I intent to offend you, but I'm allowed to have my point of view while you have yours. I play Mega Man and not being able to use danger warp while you people use the piston punch or other moves is really unfair. Also, when you create a Mii, the game automatically gives you 1111, so don't expect any support coming from players like me if you don't help on the custom move proyect. Is either all of us or none of us.

Once again;

Get back to me when you bring up an actual intelligent reply.

 

[mega4000]

I get your point but it is slippery slope and you are using the wrong character for the face of customization.

For Palutena you have to have the "customs" toggle on which then means you have to create a rule not allowing the other 47 characters which goes directly against what the game says when "customs are turned on. Despite already having her Specials already unlocked she is still in the same situation as 47 other characters in that she requires "customs" turned on. I've already gone over why Miis are an exception.

And again. I'm all for "customs" being turned on and want it very much.



Once again;

If that's not an intelligent answer for you and you are still in denial, then enjoy not having mii customs at apex and major tournys.

 

[jmanup85]

I refuse to support any scene that allows miis or paluttena to have their alternate sets while other characters can't. Also even if they are AI's is the same principle because amiibos can bypass the custom off too. Turn a clean wii u without creating anything and you can't use miis so why the heck are you bringing this when the game wasn't designed for competitive game in the first place? if we are going by competitive rules that the game sets, that's clearly for glory and nobody wants that so yeah you can go and play with your custom miis and different heights all that you want, but don't count on me or alot of people. Apex banned and surely evo will do it too, so better start help with that community custom project or else play with 1111.
Also I didn't insult you nor I intent to offend you, but I'm allowed to have my point of view while you have yours. I play Mega Man and not being able to use danger warp while you people use the piston punch or other moves is really unfair. Also, when you create a Mii, the game automatically gives you 1111, so don't expect any support coming from players like me if you don't help on the custom move proyect. Is either all of us or none of us.

Look I think all customs should be enabled for all characters. But damn man... if you're gonna complain at least know that the name of the move is Danger WRAP, not Danger WARP.

 

[san.]

1111 is not automatically set because the Mii has not yet been created until after you choose your specials. When you first start the game, no Miis are even created on the system to decide the default.

 

[mega4000]

Look I think all customs should be enabled for all characters. But damn man... if you're gonna complain at least know that the name of the move is Danger WRAP, not Danger WARP.

sorry, my bad. Gonna change it right now.

 

[Djent]

Originally I thought it'd be dumb just to turn on customs in Palutena's case only, but I've recently changed my mind. The only good argument against customs (i.e. the Logistical Argument) doesn't apply in her case, nor does it apply to the Miis. Since these characters are exceptions to the argument, what's wrong with treating her (and them) differently?

Conflict-of-Interest Statement: I play Palutena, so obviously I have a lot to gain from this ruling. However, I'd prefer that all the other characters have access to their customs as well.

 

[mimgrim]

If that's not an intelligent answer for you and you are still in denial, then enjoy not having mii customs at apex and major tournys.

Hoo-boy. Someone is bitter. I'll go through your post line by line.

I refuse to support any scene that allows miis or paluttena to have their alternate sets while other characters can't.

You have to arbitrarily create rules so as to make them not use their customs because they are not affected by the "customs" toggle. You might as well be banning the character.

Also even if they are AI's is the same principle because amiibos can bypass the custom off too.

It's a bad point because Amiibos won't ever be used seriously in a tourney other then maybe a side event which is a whole different monster.

Turn a clean wii u without creating anything and you can't use miis so why the heck are you bringing this when the game wasn't designed for competitive game in the first place?

You need to check up on your reading comprehension and stop bringing up completely off-topic points that have no basis on the discussion. Everything you said in this line has no basis in this discussion.

if we are going by competitive rules that the game sets, that's clearly for glory and nobody wants that so yeah you can go and play with your custom miis and different heights all that you want, but don't count on me or alot of people.

We aren't going by competitive rule-sets the game states (as the game doesn't state anything like and For Glory is a joke). We are going on the fundamental principles the game gives us for use, in this case the game states that with "customs" set to off that 48 of the 51 character cannot use their custom moves but that 3 of the 51 character can use there customization with "customs" set to off. Everything else you state is that of a bitter sounding person.

Apex banned and surely evo will do it too, so better start help with that community custom project or else play with 1111.

I didn't know you could read the future. Mind telling me the winning lotto numbers?

Also I didn't insult you nor I intent to offend you,

There's this little thing called tone which goes a long way.

but I'm allowed to have my point of view while you have yours.

Sure. But you could at least trying thinking it out better and be more intelligent about it.

I play Mega Man and not being able to use danger wrap while you people use the piston punch or other moves is really unfair. Also, when you create a Mii, the game automatically gives you 1111, so don't expect any support coming from players like me if you don't help on the custom move proyect. Is either all of us or none of us.

Fairness to players is subjective and varies from player to player. Therefore fairness to the game and the characters in the game should take a front seat if there is a dispute. The game states that Miis don't need "customs" turned to use their customization. Therefore it is unfair to the Miis as characters to limit them in such a way with the "customs" toggle turned off.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'll just add that Palutena is also the only character who has in-game tips (as seen on the loading screen) for all of her specials, not just the defaults.

Miis do too, AFAIK. But they share the "all customs unlocked by default" thing so it makes sense.

 

[mega4000]

Hoo-boy. Someone is bitter. I'll go through your post line by line.



You have to arbitrarily create rules so as to make them not use their customs because they are not affected by the "customs" toggle. You might as well be banning the character.



It's a bad point because Amiibos won't ever be used seriously in a tourney other then maybe a side event which is a whole different monster.



You need to check up on your reading comprehension and stop bringing up completely off-topic points that have no basis on the discussion. Everything you said in this line has no basis in this discussion.



We aren't going by competitive rule-sets the game states (as the game doesn't state anything like and For Glory is a joke). We are going on the fundamental principles the game gives us for use, in this case the game states that with "customs" set to off that 48 of the 51 character cannot use their custom moves but that 3 of the 51 character can use there customization with "customs" set to off. Everything else you state is that of a bitter sounding person.



I didn't know you could read the future. Mind telling me the winning lotto numbers?



There's this little thing called tone which goes a long way.



Sure. But you could at least trying thinking it out better and be more intelligent about it.



Fairness to players is subjective and varies from player to player. Therefore fairness to the game and the characters in the game should take a front seat if there is a dispute. The game states that Miis don't need "customs" turned to use their customization. Therefore it is unfair to the Miis as characters to limit them in such a way with the "customs" toggle turned off.

Get back to me when you bring up an actual intelligent reply

 

[mimgrim]

Get back to me when you bring up an actual intelligent reply

Aaaaand ignored.

 

[Reaperfan]

Someone gonna answer that? Because I totally called it.

I think it's safe to say that everyone realizes there are some characters who's viability drastically increases with custom moves. To say "we should allow custom moves only on these characters because they aren't good otherwise" opens up a ton of floodgates on other similar characters such as Palutena who are considered mostly non-viable without having access to their customs. "If Miis are allowed customs just so they can compete, why can't _________, who's also really bad without customs be allowed theirs?"

Bottom line, Palutena, Miis, and a good few other characters are pretty much not viable without their customs. But the "no customs" meta game is going to be drastically different than the "Customs On" meta game. There's going to be two completely separate ways to play Smash 4 competitively, the only problem is we only are using one right now. As time goes on, eventually we will have the "Customs On" path widely available and all these arguments will stop. We're almost there already, we just need to polish off and spread the word about the Official Standard Custom Moveset Project a bit more.

Rather than keep mulling around controversies about exceptions and the definition of "custom" or the importance of the "Customs: On/Off" being a button, just give it a few more months. We'll have Customs On tournaments going, likely in much stronger force after Apex, and none of this will be an issue. We had bad characters in the previous games and we put up with them for their entire lifespan as games. Let's stop being in such a rush to play with our new options that we have to bend and break perfectly solid competitive structure that mostly hinges on semantic arguments about what makes things "official" or "custom" at all.

Let's work towards implementing Customs as a whole so we can stop having these arguments altogether instead of pretending like it's some pipe dream that will never happen and focus too hard on the in-between "while we wait on everyone to unlock them" phase. Let's instead focus on getting that phase over with faster.

Palutena and Miis will be bad characters for a while. But they'll have their time to shine, likely sooner than you think.

 

[Pink'd]

Bravo, Reaperfan. If I could lock this thread, I would.

 

[John12346]

I do want to mention, with a customs off environment, all of the Mii Fighters should be able to use their custom specials anyway, on the premise that they can USE them even if Customizations is set to Off. Heck, even their equipment gets disabled if they're wearing any. The Mii Fighters were practically designed with their focus being on customization, even in tournament scenarios, so c'mon.

With Palutena, the wording of rules gets a little more confusing and iunno how to address that, but at the very least Mii Fighters should have access.

 

[Reaperfan]

I do want to mention, with a customs off environment, all of the Mii Fighters should be able to use their custom specials anyway, on the premise that they can USE them even if Customizations is set to Off. Heck, even their equipment gets disabled if they're wearing any. The Mii Fighters were practically designed with their focus being on customization, even in tournament scenarios, so c'mon.

With Palutena, the wording of rules gets a little more confusing and iunno how to address that, but at the very least Mii Fighters should have access.

Go to make a new Mii character. Pick its appearance and class. The character is now created and playable. Back out without adjusting any of the customizable options in the following menus. This particular Mii character will have a moveset of 1111.

"Customs: On/Off" being a button/menu option means nothing. The game designers imagined a default (that is, uncustomized) Mii with all of it's 1111 moves, the same as with any other character, indicated by that being it's moveset should you choose not to change anything. To allow them access to their 2 and 3 moves in the "Customs Off" meta game is disingenuous and unfair to the rest of the cast. Even if it makes them terrible characters.

To argue further is to branch off into the more philosophical argument of "is each Mii made its own, individual character" or "are there 3 Mii characters (Gunner, Brawler, Swordfighter) and height, weight, moveset, and appearance are just customizable tweaks to these three characters." And that's an argument of personal opinion and semantics which can never be resolved.

 

[Jigglymaster]

When people say "unfair" I honestly don't know what they're talking about. We all use the same exact tools, you can choose anything I can choose. That is fair.

As bad as the current metagame is (what with everyone saying the game will die if Diddy doesn't get patched and Diddy dittos happen at EVO), it boggles my mind none of you will drop the "If all of them can't have customs then none of them can" mentality in order to add a couple more viable characters to the tournament roster, creating a better tournament experience.

It's only unfair if you're stubborn enough to not want to play the character, meaning its a direct disadvantage to you, so what, are you going to ban Mewtwo if you don't want to play as him? It's a shame really, all the moves are right there unlocked, can be played with customs OFF, but ya'll won't budge and rather let the game be as terrible as it is right now rather than take a little risk that could essentially save the metagame.