Palutena the Custom exception

[warriorman222]

I'll just add that Palutena is also the only character who has in-game tips (as seen on the loading screen) for all of her specials, not just the defaults.

And Mega Man. although those are simply origins, and not real tips. Those also apply to the rest of his moves.

Also, people are saying Diddy will kill the meta. Than stop with the all or nothing custom mindset, and let Palutena and Mii Fighters use customs. That automatically gives us 2 new top tiers, meaning more diversity, meaning less Diddy, meaning less complaining. If you are so stubborn that you would rather have Diddy potentially destroy the meta than Miis have customs... I don't know what to say to you.

 

[Reaperfan]

When people say "unfair" I honestly don't know what they're talking about. We all use the same exact tools, you can choose anything I can choose. That is fair.

Mii Fighters and Palutena would have access to 12 different moves. Everyone else would have access to 4. That is what's unfair. "I have access and so do they" only makes it fair if both players are playing Mii Fighters or Palutena.

As bad as the current metagame is (what with everyone saying the game will die if Diddy doesn't get patched and Diddy dittos happen at EVO), it boggles my mind none of you will drop the "If all of them can't have customs then none of them can" mentality in order to add a couple more viable characters to the tournament roster, creating a better tournament experience.

If we make exceptions for a couple of characters, we just prolong the arrival of a completely "Customs On" meta game. It will happen where we just have the exact same argument in this thread but for every character one at a time until all of them, month after month, one by one, we keep adding "exceptions" until all of the characters are considered "exceptions" and allowed to use customs. The current meta game is unbalanced, absolutely. But at least it's stable. All we would do by slowly implementing customs is making chaos that wouldn't stabilize for a very long time while forcing TOs to constantly keep tweaking their rulesets with these "exceptions" each time we add a new one.

It's only unfair if you're stubborn enough to not want to play the character, meaning its a direct disadvantage to you, so what, are you going to ban Mewtwo if you don't want to play as him? It's a shame really, all the moves are right there unlocked, can be played with customs OFF, but ya'll won't budge and rather let the game be as terrible as it is right now rather than take a little risk that could essentially save the metagame.

It's terrible as it is now, yes. But only allowing one or two characters won't save the meta game. Allowing all of them will, or at least prolong it. The fastest way to reach that point is not to keep trying to save the "Customs Off" meta. We need to move on from the "Customs Off" idea completely. Not implement confusing and difficult half-measures just to "shake things up."

 

[warriorman222]

Mii Fighters and Palutena would have access to 12 different moves. Everyone else would have access to 4. That is what's unfair. "I have access and so do they" only makes it fair if both players are playing Mii Fighters or Palutena.



If we make exceptions for a couple of characters, we just prolong the arrival of a completely "Customs On" meta game. It will happen where we just have the exact same argument in this thread but for every character one at a time until all of them, month after month, one by one, we keep adding "exceptions" until all of the characters are considered "exceptions" and allowed to use customs. The current meta game is unbalanced, absolutely. But at least it's stable. All we would do by slowly implementing customs is making chaos that wouldn't stabilize for a very long time while forcing TOs to constantly keep tweaking their rulesets with these "exceptions" each time we add a new one.



It's terrible as it is now, yes. But only allowing one or two characters won't save the meta game. Allowing all of them will, or at least prolong it. The fastest way to reach that point is not to keep trying to save the "Customs Off" meta. We need to move on from the "Customs Off" idea completely. Not implement confusing and difficult half-measures just to "shake things up."

My thoughts

1. Yeah it's unfair, but does it warrant letting an entire meta get potentially ruined. I don't think so.
2. I want customs on, andI agree entirely.
3. Allowing all of them will. Diddy will be dethroned for sure. And again I want customs. But thanks to Apex, that may never happen. So allowing 4, may not save the meta, but 2 more top tiers means less Diddy.

 

[Balgorxz]

the pros for custom moves are much stronger than the cons and if we are talking about palutena there is no reason to ban customs for her since they are considered one of her special features by the game and they come unlocked, it's like banning the special features of all characters like kirby being unable to absorb with b moves.

 

[san.]

"Customs: On/Off" being a button/menu option means nothing. The game designers imagined a default (that is, uncustomized) Mii with all of it's 1111 moves, the same as with any other character, indicated by that being it's moveset should you choose not to change anything.

The in-game limitations mean everything, otherwise we're creating artificial rules on top of whatever the game allows. You're reaching in regards to the intentions of the developer's design decisions. If the developers intended for 1111 standard sized Miis for "Custom Fighters" OFF, that certainly would've been the only option available. Equipment is ignored, so why didn't the developers just nullify size and special adjustments as well?

Your Mii isn't created until you confirm and save. If you back out, it doesn't get made.

 

[Reaperfan]

The in-game limitations mean everything, otherwise we're creating artificial rules on top of whatever the game allows. You're reaching in regards to the intentions of the developer's design decisions. If the developers intended for 1111 standard sized Miis for "Custom Fighters" OFF, that certainly would've been the only option available. Equipment is ignored, so why didn't the developers just nullify size and special adjustments as well?

Your Mii isn't created until you confirm and save. If you back out, it doesn't get made.

To argue further is to branch off into the more philosophical argument of "is each Mii made its own, individual character" or "are there 3 Mii characters (Gunner, Brawler, Swordfighter) and height, weight, moveset, and appearance are just customizable tweaks to these three characters." And that's an argument of personal opinion and semantics which can never be resolved.

You can back out and save without adjusting the Mii's special moves. The Mii gets made whether you give it custom moves or not, as long as you agree to save it. And if we can take "For Glory" as what the game devs meant to be the "competitive" mode, then Miis would just be outright banned, but they're not, so we're already making up rules contrary to what the game devs wanted.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Mii Fighters and Palutena would have access to 12 different moves. Everyone else would have access to 4. That is what's unfair. "I have access and so do they" only makes it fair if both players are playing Mii Fighters or Palutena.

You could say the exact same thing about any other character. How is it fair that Diddy Kong's U-air is so much better than everybody elses? By your standards that would only be fair if both players were Diddy Kong.

It also sounds like you're under the impression that the Mii Fighters and Palutena's custom moves give a clear unfair advantage in the sense that they are OP. The most OP of the entire set (Piston Punch and Helicopter Kick) are not as unbeatable as people make it out to be. In-fact after fighting Shiek a good number of times I'm fairly confident when I say that Shiek beats Mii Brawler. Her F-air cleanly stops Helicopter Kick in its tracks and he gets out ranged incredibility easy.

Look, I'm all for custom moves and I know you are too. But until somebody finally convinces the higher ups to actually use them, we can at least make the current metagame somewhat bearable. God forbid that people learn how to fight Mii Fighters, or even play as them. Do you know how many people are actually afraid of maining them because they'd have to go through what I go through? The level of disrespect I get from everybody for maining these characters is astonishing.

IMO having Mii fighters allowed but banning their customs is a slap in the face. It's humiliation. You make us have to go to the menu to make the fighter and then restrict us from pushing 1 button to switch the already available moves right then and there. On top of that all of them are borderline terrible characters with default, we can't even customize them to make them look cool, literally every fun part of the character is sucked out to be turned into a boring garbage looking character because its "not fair for the other characters". Please, let the metagame continue to be Diddy/Shiek/Sonic as the higher ups never allow custom moves ON because of Logistics.

 

[Reaperfan]

You could say the exact same thing about any other character. How is it fair that Diddy Kong's U-air is so much better than everybody elses? By your standards that would only be fair if both players were Diddy Kong.

That's...not a good comparison, and not at all what I meant. Forgive me for going a bit strawman here, but right now what I've gathered from your argument is "These characters are bad and Diddy is too good! We should give these characters who don't have to grind for their customs more options but limit every other character so that Diddy isn't as good and things will be more fun!" The unfairness is that in giving options to 4 characters, you're essentially taking away options from all the rest.

If we allow Palutena, why don't we also allow Ike? Or Villager? They're pretty bad without their customs in a 1v1 setting but if we give them their customs they can be good and we can shake up the meta! And it's not like unlocking only one or two characters on a system is really that hard so it can still be okay!

It becomes a slippery slope that does nothing but escalate in chaos and confusion until it reaches critical mass and implodes with every character eventually being allowed their customs. Sure, it will eventually result in the death of the "Customs Off" meta, but it's an incredibly rocky road to set out for ourselves when we have much smoother and quicker options available if we just apply some patience.

It also sounds like you're under the impression that the Mii Fighters and Palutena's custom moves give a clear unfair advantage in the sense that they are OP. The most OP of the entire set (Piston Punch and Helicopter Kick) are not as unbeatable as people make it out to be. In-fact after fighting Shiek a good number of times I'm fairly confident when I say that Shiek beats Mii Brawler. Her F-air cleanly stops Helicopter Kick in its tracks and he gets out ranged incredibility easy.

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I never said they were broken or OP. No customs are, not even with the OIP. Allowing Palutena and Miis access to their customs is only unfair in the sense that it's exclusionary to the rest of the cast who could benefit just as much as they could.

Look, I'm all for custom moves and I know you are too. But until somebody finally convinces the higher ups to actually use them, we can at least make the current metagame somewhat bearable. God forbid that people learn how to fight Mii Fighters, or even play as them. Do you know how many people are actually afraid of maining them because they'd have to go through what I go through? The level of disrespect I get from everybody for maining these characters is astonishing.

You know how we convince the higher-ups and TOs of this? By coming up with a clear and easy-to-implement end-game plan. Not by making them constantly worry about adding minor exceptions and clauses to their rulesets just for the sake of "shaking things up."

As for the disrespect, I feel you. You probably don't think I do, but I'm well aware of the state people attempting to play these characters are in. I'm keeping the Gunner as a secondary only because of these very limitations, and it genuinely upset me when I heard Aerolink had dropped Palutena as a main because, despite being the only player to show real promise with her even in her vanilla state, he had to accept her shortcomings as a character. But you know what? We aren't special snowflakes who get to make up rules just so we can have a better time in the short term at the expense of everyone else. The time for "Customs On" to be accepted is inevitable, and we will be rewarded with our dedication then. But all we're doing by asking for a bypass on the rules right now is complicating things and delaying that point for the community as a whole. I'll gladly put up with a few more months of obscurity if it means "Customs On" gets here a few months faster.

IMO having Mii fighters allowed but banning their customs is a slap in the face. It's humiliation. You make us have to go to the menu to make the fighter and then restrict us from pushing 1 button to switch the already available moves right then and there. On top of that all of them are borderline terrible characters with default, we can't even customize them to make them look cool, literally every fun part of the character is sucked out to be turned into a boring garbage looking character because its "not fair for the other characters". Please, let the metagame continue to be Diddy/Shiek/Sonic as the higher ups never allow custom moves ON because of Logistics.

The only thing I disagree with here is the use of your word "never" in the last sentence. It's not great the way it is now. But we're not going to get anything done by whining about the fact we aren't allowed to use our options 2 and 3. They're terrible characters without them, but they aren't the only characters with those problems. Our best bet to not divide the community and complicate rulesets is find the solution for ALL of the characters at once. Not half-ass it just because the menus allow it or we didn't have to grind for a couple of the moves.

 

[PKBeam]

People are working on a project to integrate custom moves into competitive gameplay.
Two pages of arguing just so four characters can have early access to customs. When that happens, all this becomes completely irrelevant.

 

[mimgrim]

You can back out and save without adjusting the Mii's special moves. The Mii gets made whether you give it custom moves or not, as long as you agree to save it. And if we can take "For Glory" as what the game devs meant to be the "competitive" mode, then Miis would just be outright banned, but they're not, so we're already making up rules contrary to what the game devs wanted.

You are assuming you know what the devs want. Stop with that bull****.

You also argue that it is unfair to allow the Miis their customization but not the other characters (notice I only said Miis and not Palutena because I do think it would be unfair for Palutena to have hers because she requires "Customs" turned on) but explain in a objective way that it is unfair.

I can explain in an objective way it is fair to allow the Miis their customization with "Customs" turned off. Because the game says it is fair. The game says they can use their customization with "customs" turned off. "For Glory" mode is irrelevant because it isn't "Smash" mode or "With Friends" mode. It actually complicates rule-sets to limit Miis because it requires external rules to be made for them to deviate from what the game states as standard.

 

[Reaperfan]

You are assuming you know what the devs want. Stop with that bull****.

I'm just using the same logic that you're using when you say Miis should be allowed access. I'm looking at the systems in place in the game and reading into the intent behind those particular design decisions. You're right in that I can't say with exact precision what the thoughts and feelings were, but I can get an idea of the general reasoning behind the decisions made and how those reflect what the game devs wanted for their game. With as much as they touted Omega Mode and For Glory in their promotion material alongside them emphasizing those particular features with their extra focus on the Competitive Scene, I can assume, in general, that those things were designed with what the game devs considered to be the competitive playstyle. And they imagined their competitive playstyle without Miis.

You also argue that it is unfair to allow the Miis their customization but not the other characters (notice I only said Miis and not Palutena because I do think it would be unfair for Palutena to have hers because she requires "Customs" turned on) but explain in a objective way that it is unfair.

I can explain in an objective way it is fair to allow the Miis their customization with "Customs" turned off. Because the game says it is fair. The game says they can use their customization with "customs" turned off. "For Glory" mode is irrelevant because it isn't "Smash" mode or "With Friends" mode. It actually complicates rule-sets to limit Miis because it requires external rules to be made for them to deviate from what the game states as standard.

Again, reading into the intent behind design decisions, Smash Mode is, generally speaking, the "one size fits all" mode. Or the "pick up and play mode." It's for people to just turn on the game and start playing however they like. It is not, as far as what the game organization indicates, the "purely competitive mode." With Friends is the same thing, but online.

To allow Miis at all requires us to put in special rules about height and weight. We have to regulate which Miis are allowed to be used to create a Mii fighter. If we don't, we require 3DS transfers so everyone can have their exact preferred height/weight configuration for everyone who wants to play a Mii. Even after customs are allowed, the point where we have full access to all Mii sizes is likely even further away down the road (though not as far away as equipment). We're already having to jump through hurdles and make special rules just to allow them to be playable at all with any amount of consistency.

The end-goal we both have is "Customs On" and "anything goes" in regards to Miis. But I see attempting to force exceptions incrementally as only prohibitive in reaching that point and fueled more by impatience than a desire to expand the meta game.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

When people say "unfair" I honestly don't know what they're talking about. We all use the same exact tools, you can choose anything I can choose. That is fair.

As bad as the current metagame is (what with everyone saying the game will die if Diddy doesn't get patched and Diddy dittos happen at EVO), it boggles my mind none of you will drop the "If all of them can't have customs then none of them can" mentality in order to add a couple more viable characters to the tournament roster, creating a better tournament experience.

It's only unfair if you're stubborn enough to not want to play the character, meaning its a direct disadvantage to you, so what, are you going to ban Mewtwo if you don't want to play as him? It's a shame really, all the moves are right there unlocked, can be played with customs OFF, but ya'll won't budge and rather let the game be as terrible as it is right now rather than take a little risk that could essentially save the metagame.

Some of us are pushing very hard for all of us to be able to play our real characters. Asking for your character while others get excluded is a devil's deal, asking for your full character while others have to play gimped versions of theirs. It's not just hopeless either; there's a lot of support for customs. Why not throw full weight behind fully legal customs so you can have your character and everyone else can too?

The unlocking position is pretty much a farce, and you should be calling out people who cite it not tacitly supporting it. We have to unlock lots of legal characters and stages; clearly "being unlockable" is not a general ban condition in this game (if it is, better ban Smashville). Doing *that much* unlocking on every Wii U may be an unreasonable burden, but we've solved that problem with 3ds imports. We've been doing that locally for over a month now; it works. I... actually don't know why people don't want customs on. Right now most people who don't want them on argue they shouldn't be on because other people don't have them on; it's total circular logic that makes it very clear to me that if everyone just turned them on everyone would be happier. Most players I talk to say they do want them on (or don't know about them); I don't run into many players at all who both take 4 seriously and actively don't want legal customs so as far as I can tell no customs rules in general are pretty unrepresentative of what the players actually want. That side needs to be pressured to articulate a reasonable, coherent reason to ban customs or to turn them on, not compromised with as things stand especially when you're proposing to help the mains of 3 or 4 characters while leaving the mains of the other 47 or 48 characters out in the cold.

Sorry to be harsh about it, but I just don't see the merit in pushing for rules that are slightly less bad when it would be so easy to implement rules that are significantly less bad. Like you mentioned EVO, but to my knowledge EVO's rules haven't been announced. The future is not set in stone; we are far from the position where we have to beg for tiny incremental improvements to fundamentally bad rules. Let's push for a real win on this one.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Some of us are pushing very hard for all of us to be able to play our real characters. Asking for your character while others get excluded is a devil's deal, asking for your full character while others have to play gimped versions of theirs. It's not just hopeless either; there's a lot of support for customs. Why not throw full weight behind fully legal customs so you can have your character and everyone else can too?

The unlocking position is pretty much a farce, and you should be calling out people who cite it not tacitly supporting it. We have to unlock lots of legal characters and stages; clearly "being unlockable" is not a general ban condition in this game (if it is, better ban Smashville). Doing *that much* unlocking on every Wii U may be an unreasonable burden, but we've solved that problem with 3ds imports. We've been doing that locally for over a month now; it works. I... actually don't know why people don't want customs on. Right now most people who don't want them on argue they shouldn't be on because other people don't have them on; it's total circular logic that makes it very clear to me that if everyone just turned them on everyone would be happier. Most players I talk to say they do want them on (or don't know about them); I don't run into many players at all who both take 4 seriously and actively don't want legal customs so as far as I can tell no customs rules in general are pretty unrepresentative of what the players actually want. That side needs to be pressured to articulate a reasonable, coherent reason to ban customs or to turn them on, not compromised with as things stand especially when you're proposing to help the mains of 3 or 4 characters while leaving the mains of the other 47 or 48 characters out in the cold.

Sorry to be harsh about it, but I just don't see the merit in pushing for rules that are slightly less bad when it would be so easy to implement rules that are significantly less bad. Like you mentioned EVO, but to my knowledge EVO's rules haven't been announced. The future is not set in stone; we are far from the position where we have to beg for tiny incremental improvements to fundamentally bad rules. Let's push for a real win on this one.

Could have used you on Reddit the other day. Had a lot of people citing the "burden to unlock" argument and you're much more articulate in your rebuttals than I am.

 

[Djent]

Scenarios ranked in order of desirability (IMO):

1) All customs on
2) Customs for Palutena + Mii Fighters
3) Customs for Mii Fighters
4) The current bull****

Notice the trend. I'd still be for Mii Fighters getting free access to customs, even if Palutena doesn't also get hers. But since the "burden of unlock" doesn't apply to her, it makes sense for her to be an exception. And it's not unreasonable to add another clause for her when this ****ing community has essay-length rulesets already.

 

[PKBeam]

didn't, like, 5 people already go over why that's a bad idea?

 

[Djent]

Didn't, like, their arguments suck?

EDIT: FFS, just read my first post instead of offering these ****ty responses.

 

[PKBeam]

Then you should no problem at all poking holes in them...

 

[mimgrim]

Then you should no problem at all poking holes in them...

I've been doing nothing but poking holes in them. When people start to ignore what I actually say is when I stop replying because it isn't worth the one-sided discussion. Instead of guessing what the devs intended it should instead go with what the game clearly states and any argument against what the game is clearly state that has been brought up are either ****ty arguments or go into the guessing game of what the devs intentions were. But no. People don't want to use simple logic.

This thread is now stupid and I'm done with it.

 

[DavemanCozy]

The only reason I see for people to whine about customs is because they don't want to learn how to deal with them (hey, I didn't say it was a good reason).

Honestly, they should all just be allowed. I started trying the Mii Brawler myself a while ago, and I actually liked playing as the Brawler. It's quite unfortunate that I just never get a chance to try him due to ruleset restrictions all over the place with their moves. I've barely gotten to play him and rarely get any chances to practice him. The only thing I get is the weight and height to be kept default, but come on, that should be the only restriction if there has to be one (and even then).

Yesterday night, I went to Neo Canadia 5, the Toronto monthly. In Losers Round 6, I faced off against IceNinja, a very good Palutena player. We had a very close set in the end (I won 2-1, last stock both at high %), but honestly, it was due to him getting greedy with F-smash, so I went in for a punish.
Can you imagine if he would've had celestial fireworks to properly hit me from mid-range? What about Lightweight, to keep up with Fox's jittery movement? Honestly, he would've won, and he was also doing the sickest things by ledge-cancelling Warp using Battlefield's platforms. I kinda felt bad that I beat him, because that wasn't the character he loves to play and dedicates so much time into, it was just a shell of a character that could be much better.

Back to Mii: I tried playing Brawler last night at Neo Canadia in Losers Round 7 after I got destroyed vs Ryoko on game 1. He's a very solid ZSS player, and that matchup is just hard as hell for Fox. I switched to Mii, did much better with it, but in the end I lost. How much do I wish I could've used Helicopter Kick to seal KO's. It sucks that I couldn't use Feint Jump either to avoid the paralyzer shots and essentially make it back onstage.

And to further support Customs, not just for Palu and Miis, but for everyone: I want to be able to use Flying Fox (faster recovery), Big Reflector (for the windbox), and get rid of my incredibly crappy rapid fire Blaster that just plain sucks in this game and its only use is to force approaches from opponents standing too far to punish me. I may not have a right to complain when Fox is a good character in the non-Custom meta, but it infuriates me every time I'm forced offstage and knowing that Up-B puts a big "Hit me please" sign on my forehead.

This thread might have gotten derailed, but you know what? The point it's getting across right now is what the meta should be: turn Customs On. What worries me the most is EVO doing Smash4 after the Apex ruleset, which I sincerely hope it doesn't happen.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This thread might have gotten derailed, but you know what? The point it's getting across right now is what the meta should be: turn Customs On. What worries me the most is EVO doing Smash4 after the Apex ruleset, which I sincerely hope it doesn't happen.

I tweeted to the Evo people asking if they would have customs enabled and they said the ruleset hasn't been decided yet. I promptly replied back saying I supported customs. If enough people do similarly they may get the message.