Palutena Custom Move Discussion

[Braydon]

If you're getting screwed on counter attempts, you're kind of doing it wrong. Counters are for when you either have a read, or a move with long start up lag. You're just stating whatever you do good with as if it's obviously the best. Lightwieght has limited up time, and you gain vulnerabilities, and it only gives you a few counters.

And best mobility in the game? That's Sonic.

 

[Djent]

Her aerial mobility is better than Sonic's in LW.

lolCounter

 

[InfinityCollision]

Counters are for when you either have a read

This neglects the interactive nature of mindgames. If I read an attack and prep a counter, what happens if the opponent instead does nothing or grabs? Yomi is not one-sided.

Even in these situations, using Counter is not necessarily your best or only option. Lightweight grants followups that would otherwise not be possible, including setups into kills.

or a move with long start up lag.

If your opponent is using unsafe moves in punishable situations then that's a fault on their end, not an argument for Counter's viability.

You're just stating whatever you do good with as if it's obviously the best.

Other way around: I use Lightweight because I think it's clearly her best option in that slot. If I thought Counter had viable applications that outweighed Lightweight's utility, I would use it as appropriate.

And best mobility in the game? That's Sonic.

Lightweight Palutena is slightly faster than Sonic on the ground and notably more mobile in the air.

 

[Masque]

Help me learn to custom. D:
I hit the lab yesterday to fool around with Lightweight, but I couldn't seem to replicate the Purifier (a.k.a. rising Nair into Nair) or the Sublimator (a.k.a. rising Nair into Uair for KO) with any consistency. Granted, I was working against high-level CPUs and their stupid AI, so I would imagine their insane DI had something to do with it. That said, I didn't get nearly the necessary amount of height off of my initial jump into Nair--Palu and the victim often traveled low and across--and the opponent usually popped out too far away to punish. Any advice?

 

[TastyCarcass]

Has anyone got footage of a custom palutena in tournaments? I am excited for lightweight, but I'm worried it would make her too weak. I would also like to see super speed being put to use. I don't see why so many likeelike her firework move

I believe that many people here aren't giving her upb 3 enough appreciation. It's a quick, reliable kill move and edgeguard, and it can be used OoS.

 

[John12346]

It seems like there's a lot of dissenting opinion on how Palutena's Custom Specials should be run. Well, the main issue I'm running into is that you guys are agreeing that a lot of her moves are useable, and that unfortunately makes it very hard to narrow it down to 10 sets. Considering how unique Palutenta is, it's not surprising, but it is difficult to deal with.

So with that in mind, for Palutena only, I'm going to make and leave this poll here: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/NTXNLFP

It contains all 80 combinations of Custom Special moves, and each of you can vote for the 8 you like the most. You can also go back in and change your votes at any time. Also, make sure you vote ony for the sets that you can see yourself using as a Palutena player - you don't need to use all 8 votes. It's not a surefire guarantee that the Top 10 will be used, but a poll like this can help paint a better picture. Any assistance is appreciated when it comes to this crazy character.

 

[deepseadiva]

It seems like there's a lot of dissenting opinion on how Palutena's Custom Specials should be run. Well, the main issue I'm running into is that you guys are agreeing that a lot of her moves are useable, and that unfortunately makes it very hard to narrow it down to 10 sets. Considering how unique Palutenta is, it's not surprising, but it is difficult to deal with.

So with that in mind, for Palutena only, I'm going to make and leave this poll here: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/NTXNLFP

It contains all 80 combinations of Custom Special moves, and each of you can vote for the 8 you like the most. You can also go back in and change your votes at any time. Also, make sure you vote ony for the sets that you can see yourself using as a Palutena player - you don't need to use all 8 votes. It's not a surefire guarantee that the Top 10 will be used, but a poll like this can help paint a better picture. Any assistance is appreciated when it comes to this crazy character.

2112 and 2312 are the essentials. The rest are preference and matchup dependent, but those are clearly her two optimal sets.

 

[Djent]

All 3 Up-Bs should be represented IMO. Rocket Jump always wants SS, so that frees 2 slots for Reflect Barrier sets, and I'm assuming that synergizes better with Warp than Glide. Which leaves:

1112
1312
1322
1332
2112
2312
2322
2332

 

[Rashid]

Here're the 4 sets I commonly use:

• 2312 is a given.
• 1322 is a nice, well-rounded set. (the one Aerolink uses?)
• 2122 and 2123 are the sets I use against zoners. (I really think you guys are sleeping on Celestial Fireworks) Between EF and Reflect Barrier, you destroy their zoning game. JG helps you get in, and helps you recover since you don't have SS. Whether I use LW or CF depends on their weight/fall speed. (I usually use CF for lighter characters like Villager, especially since he has lingering hitboxes, and Olimar, since LW + DoTs = death)

I assume Angelic Missle is never worth taking because SS and Reflect Barrier are too good?

 

[Piford]

Here're the 4 sets I commonly use:

• 2312 is a given.
• 1322 is a nice, well-rounded set. (the one Aerolink uses?)
• 2122 and 2123 are the sets I use against zoners. (I really think you guys are sleeping on Celestial Fireworks) Between EF and Reflect Barrier, you destroy their zoning game. JG helps you get in, and helps you recover since you don't have SS. Whether I use LW or CF depends on their weight/fall speed. (I usually use CF for lighter characters like Villager, especially since he has lingering hitboxes, and Olimar, since LW + DoTs = death)

I assume Angelic Missle is never worth taking because SS and Reflect Barrier are too good?

Aerolink uses 1322. I'd make sure that's on your list of customs as he's likely the best Palutena main

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I use Palutena custom 1322 here @ 37:00 http://www.twitch.tv/gbdojo/b/634054158

I told Aerolink to use 1322, it's the best overall custom moveset IMO, but certain matchups like Luigi I think the reflect is better but keep everything else. I think the other B attack might not be that bad either.

 

[John12346]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
1312 2312 1322 2322 2112 1332 2332 1112 1122 2122

This is purely the Top 10 of the poll I had posted earlier, in order of which sets got the most votes. After tallying up the votes and comparing it against the discussion that has occurred since then, every set with the exception of Rashid's 2123 set appeared in here. I'm not saying to take the results of this poll as your set-in-stone list of custom sets, but I believe it's a very good baseline to start from, since it seems to cover most of Palutena's more optimized loadouts.

Of course, this list needs to be organized by priority, and the other specials and sets, such as Heavenly Light and Rashid's 2123 should be taken into consideration as well. But as it stands, this list is looking very solid.

 

[PlTe]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
1312 2312 1322 2322 2112 1332 2332 1112 1122 2122

This is purely the Top 10 of the poll I had posted earlier, in order of which sets got the most votes. After tallying up the votes and comparing it against the discussion that has occurred since then, every set with the exception of Rashid's 2123 set appeared in here. I'm not saying to take the results of this poll as your set-in-stone list of custom sets, but I believe it's a very good baseline to start from, since it seems to cover most of Palutena's more optimized loadouts.

Of course, this list needs to be organized by priority, and the other specials and sets, such as Heavenly Light and Rashid's 2123 should be taken into consideration as well. But as it stands, this list is looking very solid.

What about 2213? Explosive Flame, Angelic Missile, Warp, and Celestial Firework is my main set.

 

[John12346]

If memory serves, Angelic Missile is not a very favored special, as Super Speed's very existence makes it redundant in all aspects. I didn't really see much of a buzz for the move, so I can understand why it didn't make the cut above.

But remember, those poll results aren't set in stone. Now's the time to start up discussion about why Angelic Missile and Celestial Firework(even I believe this one should have a few) are useful moves in their own right. Make a case for why they serve niche purposes and why they deserve to be on Palutena's sets.

Ignoring the poll, moveset creation seems to favor the following combinations from the Palutena boards:

1/2, 1/3, 1/2/3, 2

which is a total of 12 sets. That's very close to the 10 limit, so you could feasibly pull out the argument for some Missile and Firework sets over, say Rocket Jump, Reflector, and Autoreticle sets. Keep in mind, though, that if there isn't a enough overall support for it, it may not make the cut.

 

[Cyrrona]

I'd ditch 1112 for a Celestial Firework set. Without Super Speed, you'll really want Jump Glide to bypass Lightweight's mobility backlash--the 1122 option already included seems like the best choice for Reflect + Lightweight.

As for Celestial Firework's worth...while I'd choose Lightweight in most circumstances, I think this move has a few interesting properties that warrant a set. I think the biggest benefit is its ability to take grounded Palutena's disjoints into the sky. Its impressive range and lingering hitbox make it tricky to air dodge, so you can chase airborne opponents up for some nifty ceiling KOs. Lightweight's DThrow -> UpAir also kills pretty reliably off the top, but Firework isn't totally redundant--you're also getting a safer anti-air move than UpSmash and some very welcome super armor.

For the rest of the set, I'd run 2313. Explosive Flame pops opponents up for juggling and Firework assaults, Super Speed grants you approaches and mobility to compensate for Lightweight's absence, and Warp is just a personal preference--Jump Glide would probably work fine as well. Thoughts?

 

[Djent]

Hmm yeah that's a good point, maybe do Jump Glide on the Reflect sets (x12x instead of x11x).

 

[PlTe]

I'd ditch 1112 for a Celestial Firework set. Without Super Speed, you'll really want Jump Glide to bypass Lightweight's mobility backlash--the 1122 option already included seems like the best choice for Reflect + Lightweight.

As for Celestial Firework's worth...while I'd choose Lightweight in most circumstances, I think this move has a few interesting properties that warrant a set. I think the biggest benefit is its ability to take grounded Palutena's disjoints into the sky. Its impressive range and lingering hitbox make it tricky to air dodge, so you can chase airborne opponents up for some pretty nifty ceiling KOs. Lightweight's DThrow -> UpAir also kills pretty reliably off the top, but Firework isn't totally redundant--you're also getting a safer anti-air move than UpSmash and some very welcome super armor.

For the rest of the set, I'd run 2313. Explosive Flame pops opponents up for juggling and Firework assaults, Super Speed grants you approaches and mobility to compensate for Lightweight's absence, and Warp is just a personal preference--Jump Glide would probably work fine as well. Thoughts?

I've been using 2313 a lot more due to the customs rule, and from some practice I'm starting to see how SuperSpeed is favored over Angelic Missile. I do like Angelic Missile in terms of dealing damage and horizontal recovery, but SuperSpeed is very useful to catch an opponent off-guard and deal a good amount of damage.

 

[Bube_Marth]

Sorry for the bad english. I'm a german guy. Hopefully people can understand me in the video.

 

[PlTe]

I have been preferring 2313 lately (Explosive Flame, Super Speed, Warp, Celestial Firework). I know Lightweight is better than CF, and that CF is really hard to hit, but man when it does hit it's so satisfying. Is there any way 2313 can weave its way into the custom sets?

 

[Djent]

We have our custom sets:

Spoiler

2322, 2312, 1322, 1312, 2122, 1122, 2332, 1332, 2313, 2323

@ PlTe your set made it in the 9th slot.

 

[PlTe]

We have our custom sets:

Spoiler

2322, 2312, 1322, 1312, 2122, 1122, 2332, 1332, 2313, 2323

@ PlTe your set made it in the 9th slot.

Okay, now if more local tournaments do custom moves like this I'm getting into competitive Sm4sh.

 

[SoulRed12]

Is Lightweight --> Dthrow --> Uair inescapable? I.e., if I'm under the effects of LW, and I get a grab with the opponent at kill % on their last stock, have I won assuming I dash to up air properly? I was testing it on DK set to "run" in training mode and at 115% (without rage) it kills and seems to be inescapable, although I'm only running off the assumption that if the level 9 CPU could have air dodged or jumped it would have. Same thing seemed to happen for Mario at 110% and Kirby at 85% (again without rage).

 

[Djent]

I wouldn't be surprised if there are scenarios where it's inescapable (just like 's UThrow → UAir), but analogously it depends on weight, fallspeed, rage, and %. So it'll probably take a lot of research to say if and when it can't be DIed.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

So everyone knows about the lightweight nair -> upair combo for the early KO. But the opponent can DI away and your other option is to fair which usually won't kill. So instead, I think it's optimal to go for a turnaround nair (after dthrow and your opponent DIs away) to setup for bair if your oppponent DIs away after the nair, and that can kill near the blast-zone. Also, I was informed about pivot grabbing out of Super Speed (which I didn't know until recently lol), especially useful after crossing your opponent's shield with lightweight on to setup for the dthrow -> upair KO. Interesting stuff, to say the least.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

So everyone knows about the lightweight nair -> upair combo for the early KO. But the opponent can DI away and your other option is to fair which usually won't kill. So instead, I think it's optimal to go for a turnaround nair (after dthrow and your opponent DIs away) to setup for bair if your oppponent DIs away after the nair, and that can kill near the blast-zone. Also, I was informed about pivot grabbing out of Super Speed (which I didn't know until recently lol), especially useful after crossing your opponent's shield with lightweight on to setup for the dthrow -> upair KO. Interesting stuff, to say the least.

A turnaround... nair...??? That works? It's hard for me to imagine you turning around, jumping, nairing, and then you have enough momentum to bring them to the edge of the screen haha. But that sounds stylish and sick!

 

[Raethien]

For my Palutena, I have Explosive Flame, Warp, Super Speed, and Lightweight. Any ideas for change, or tips on my set up?

 

[Djent]

That's one of her two best sets IMO.

The only other thing I'd recommend is trying Auto-Reticle in some matchups. But even still, I don't think it's the clear better choice over Explosive Flame. Super Speed and Lightweight are essential to every matchup, and Jump Glide is still poo.

I spend about equal time split between 1312 and 2312.

 

[Djent]

Okay, so this is big:

Tsu Kiyo Me found that we can Jab->Footstool->Auto-Reticle restand into Smash attacks!

Big deal for a character that fishes for kills off of grabs. And yes, this makes 1312 her definitive best set IMO.

 

[TastyCarcass]

That sounds amazing, a guaranteed f smash after a jab would make her unstoppable.
Would need a video though, I can't recreate it. I'm on a 3DS though so someone else might want to try

Edit: I got it once vs a mario at about 150 percent in training mode. Not sure how useful that is

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

damn only 150? if it would happen earlier that would be great... since fsmash can kill at 60-80%

got it to work but it seems like they can only be put into that position at around 150% ;;

 

[Djent]

@TsuKiyoMe any luck upping the consistency against smaller chars? I still can't make it work right.

 

[JayWon]

ITT: People who don't know how to use Jump Glide effectively themselves hence concluding Jump Glide sucks.

These Jump Glide sets are a must for me:
2322
1322
2122
1122

 

[TastyCarcass]

its use is a combo extender, but you have to ask if that is worth losing the free recovery. I personally don't think it is, since usually if you land an up air above 70 percent they're dead anyway, and I find the trajectory nair sends people to be difficult to predict

 

[RavensArk]

I myself run 1312. Autoreticle is the bread to my butter. While it has limited uses I find myself using it pretty efficiently, racking up extra damage and forcing approaches/options. SS due to its amazing utility. Warp due to warp canceling and a pretty solid recovery. Theres Jump Glide but warp canceling has that special feeling to it <3
Do I even need to explain myself for lightweight?

 

[TastyCarcass]

Is Lightweight --> Dthrow --> Uair inescapable? I.e., if I'm under the effects of LW, and I get a grab with the opponent at kill % on their last stock, have I won assuming I dash to up air properly? I was testing it on DK set to "run" in training mode and at 115% (without rage) it kills and seems to be inescapable, although I'm only running off the assumption that if the level 9 CPU could have air dodged or jumped it would have. Same thing seemed to happen for Mario at 110% and Kirby at 85% (again without rage).

It's unDIable unless Palutena has rage. The rage will make the dthrow send them too far for a follow up.

 

[PHP]

Personally I prefer 1213 because angelic missile can kill at 95 near the ledge as well as being a reliable recovery, it also bounces off shields (like bouncing fish) so it's not easily punished. Celestial firework can KO extremely early if you can read your opponent's air movement, or you can use it defensively and beat every smash attack that comes your way. 1312 is still the superior set, but this one can catch the opponent off guard

 

[PKIvysaur]

I personally love this set:

Warp
Explosive flame
Angelic Missile
Counter

I like the combo of missile to explosive flame too, even though it doesn't work sometimes

 

[wpwood]

I personally prefer Explosive flame, Super speed, Lightweight, and am currently leaning more for warp but still like jump glide.

If AR could jab lock better and more reliably I would use it and say it's the superior neutral b, but it doesn't. Maybe if it's buffed in the next patch I'll like it more. Plus people can just run under AR since it locks on and takes 30 frames for the first projectile to even spawn. I prefer the spacing and coverage that EF offers and EF is a much better move to use in doubles. If say a Lucario is doing aura sphere on an opponents shield, Palutena can use EF from behind her teammate and add even more shield pressure.

Reflect is match up dependent. I would use it against villager and mega man and that is probably it. Super speed can be used in almost any match up and sets up for kills. I also prefer the options I have out of super speed compared to what I can do out of missile.

Counter is bad, there should be no denying that. CF can prove useful in situations and betters her defensive play, but as of now (in default where she is naturally defensive) I don't use any special moves in a neutral situation aside from warp or reflect depending on the situation. I find the kill confirms and movement lightweight offer to far greater than anything the other two offer. I do understand how CF can be useful, but not counter.

I used to be more for JG, but after customs have gone away, I've started liking warp a lot more. RJ just doesn't have the recovery I would like. Sure the move can kill, but when I have 3 other moves that can kill or set up for kills and 2 of those also help me recover I'm gonna choose another recovery option. I think both warp and JG are equally usable: warp has the upper hand in recovery but JG has the better offense. I think they have equal movement with ledge cancel warp and the ability to float above the stage moving forward or backwards.

If I had to choose 1 move set it would be this and as of now I would choose warp. Which brings me to a point I've been raising in other places: I think Palutena should be allowed, like Miis at other tournaments, 1 move set or at the very least give her lightweight. Like I said counter is just bad and in no way does it help her. This is the set I would vote for if TOs asked for a standard Palutena set. It gives her IMO the best mobility, best kill potential (minus RJ), and best recovery. Again, if AR gets a buff and jab locks become easier with it then I will probably switch my vote to AR over EF.

 

[PsychoPuff23]

For me i have two differents Custom palutena

Max offensive:
Auto reticle
Angelic missile
Warp
Lightweight

and a more defensive one

Auto reticle
Angelic missile
warp
celestial fireworks

 

[PHP]

For me i have two differents Custom palutena

Max offensive:
Auto reticle
Angelic missile
Warp
Lightweight

and a more defensive one

Auto reticle
Angelic missile
warp
celestial fireworks

Actually wouldn't hyper offensive:
Explosive flame
Angelic missile
Rocket jump
Lightweight
And defensive would be:
Autoreticule
Reflect
Warp
Celestial fireworks
Pseudo rush down is:
Explosive flame
Super speed
Jump glide
Lightweight