Pack Idea

[ryuu seika]

So we have a highly modified Brawl to improve the game for those who prefered speed, mobility and combos but Melee wasn't perfect either so why don't we attempt to address that? Here are my suggestions. Rebalancing would be needed ontop of this but that is best saved for after the initial changes have been properly tested.

Global Mechanics
-Ledge invincibility duration decreases with each regrab, reaching 0 when a player grabs a ledge for the fifth time in one stock. Refreshes slowly with time spent on the ground.
-Whenever a player is grabbed, they gain immunity to grabs by that character until they experience 5 or more consecutive free frames. Nana and Popo are considered seperate characters for the sake of this restriction.
-Air dodges may not be activated until full jump height has been reached.
-Grabs and grab like moves will not accept any break out input within 3 frames of a recognized input.
-Short hop cut off points are increased by 2 frames across the board.
-L-Cancelling triggers a sparkle graphic like in Project M.

Menu Changes
-Sandbag is chooseable on the character select screen.
-A Mario question mark block takes the place of the other blank spot. Picking this will immediately move the player's coin to another random character. Sandbag is considered an option.
-Majora's Mask is a stage option.

Character Specific Changes
-Players swallowed by Kirby nolonger have a hitbox, meaning that he will always die first when swallowciding.
-Fox and Falco may not jump out of their reflector moves.
-Young Link gains 0.2x more height with his Up B but has a cooldown timer that makes him dizzy (short version of shield break) if he uses it 3 times in rapid succession. A slight speed increase is also included.
-Jigglypuff nolonger dies instantly on shield break.
-Falco has an electric graphic and effect instead of fire on his recovery move. This may or may not be the continuation of a bad pun.
-Yoshi gains a small amount of height when egg throwing in the air, as was introduced in Brawl.
-Ganondorf has his own moveset.
-Sandbag experiences double the normal amount of momentum skewing when performing DI and may tech/ukemi but is unable to perform any other actions.

Stage Specific Changes
-Yoshi's Story 64 has no clouds
-Yoshi's Island's pipes and hill are shortened to make the stage non-walkoff and nearly symmetrical. These edges are grabbable but the side blast zones are still dangerously close to them.
-AR Wing fighters appear on Corneria only if items are on.
-Kongo Jungle Melee consists only of the main structure, which is positioned centrally. To accommodate this, the stage (blastzone-wise) is now significantly narrower. The platforms are all very slightly rounded.
-Onett has no ground past the houses, with the cars spawning from them instead of the screen edges.
-Green Greens has no outer platforms or wind and spawns apples only when items are on. The bomb blocks are replaced by red blocks that take an extra couple of hits to destroy and the maximum height of the block towers is raised by 1 block.
-Klaptrap is nolonger present in Jungle Japes.
-The central platform of Mushroom Kingdom II is widened slightly and given ledges, while the outer walls are reduced in width to match. The entire stage is raised slightly and, rather than appearing randomly, Birdo will now assault any player who tries to stand on the outer walls. Said walls do not have ledges.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

So... removal of wavedashing? >

I personally hate smash 4's ledge mechanics. being able to pop the other person off is not a good idea.

The nerfs to fox and falco are not their needed nerfs at all. Also, a nerf to Kirby and a ridiculous change to young link sounds weird

 

[ryuu seika]

Do feel free to suggest additions to the list.
The nerf to Kirby would be a fix to his ridiculous fall speed exploit, the swallowcide cancel, buffs elsewhere should most likely be implemented also. The change to Young Link is a thematic addition based on his Toon incarnation's games intended to increase his individuality and allow buffs to the move without making it spammable. The limit may have to apply to ground use only though.

Removal of wavedashing and chaingrabbing, in my opinion atleast, would be beneficial for the game but I am open to reconsider ledge popping. My only concern there is that the invincibility change predominantly nerfs recovery without doing much, if anything, to punish ledge hogging.

We have all seen Melee combo videos and how crazy the ledge game can get, there should be no call for ledge hogging to be a powerful option when the alternative is where a good deal of the game's excitement occurs.

 

[Y-L]

Sounds to me you just want everything melee players hate about smash 4 to be in melee.

 

[ryuu seika]

Sounds to me you just want everything melee players hate about smash 4 to be in melee.

If so, that hardly reflects well on those Melee lovers because this would primarily be a removal of some infinites and cheap tactics.

The grab restriction is a variation on Smash 4's that should prove fairer as it prevents intermittent grabs from potentially making small combos go infinite and yet still allows regrabs much sooner so as not to force one player into a reduced option combat scenario unnecessarily.
The ledge invincibility decay is, again, a variation on Smash 4 that wouldn't have the same brutal on/off function as its origin and would prevent infinite regrabs being performed to abuse the invincibility while not hindering the edge game much. Contrary to what I implied in the OP, I would have this decay recover gradually with time spent on ground so it really wouldn't have that big an impact on edgeguarding and recovery.
As for the pop off mechanic, I can see how it could be a pain in some's eyes but do see it as a valuable addition to the franchise as it makes hogging the ledge less of a go to option. I would be happy to surrender it as I feel this mechanic is far more of a subjective improvement than the above two but I would also like to suggest a compromise of having a short (~20 frame?) period before popping could occur and maybe letting the former edge holder angle their motion to evade follow up.
The Kirby thing is then just common sense as the swallowcide cancel is an obnoxious way to take a stock and relies on exploiting a curious artifact of the way in which fall speed discrepancies manifest in linked characters. As a byproduct, the fix also prevents a 4 swallowcide win due to Kirby dying first but, as the easiest possible way to get a suicide kill, I think it's perfectly reasonable for Kirby's Inhale to get such a nerf.

If there's anything else, let me know.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

because kirby is SSS tier

 

[zankyou]

Sounds to me you just want everything melee players hate about smash 4 to be in melee.

Well theres a project b g

If so, that hardly reflects well on those Melee lovers because this would primarily be a removal of some infinites and cheap tactics.

The grab restriction is a variation on Smash 4's that should prove fairer as it prevents intermittent grabs from potentially making small combos go infinite and yet still allows regrabs much sooner so as not to force one player into a reduced option combat scenario unnecessarily.
The ledge invincibility decay is, again, a variation on Smash 4 that wouldn't have the same brutal on/off function as its origin and would prevent infinite regrabs being performed to abuse the invincibility while not hindering the edge game much. Contrary to what I implied in the OP, I would have this decay recover gradually with time spent on ground so it really wouldn't have that big an impact on edgeguarding and recovery.
As for the pop off mechanic, I can see how it could be a pain in some's eyes but do see it as a valuable addition to the franchise as it makes hogging the ledge less of a go to option. I would be happy to surrender it as I feel this mechanic is far more of a subjective improvement than the above two but I would also like to suggest a compromise of having a short (~20 frame?) period before popping could occur and maybe letting the former edge holder angle their motion to evade follow up.
The Kirby thing is then just common sense as the swallowcide cancel is an obnoxious way to take a stock and relies on exploiting a curious artifact of the way in which fall speed discrepancies manifest in linked characters. As a byproduct, the fix also prevents a 4 swallowcide win due to Kirby dying first but, as the easiest possible way to get a suicide kill, I think it's perfectly reasonable for Kirby's Inhale to get such a nerf.

If there's anything else, let me know.

Youre suggestions sound as though you wish to make a smash 4 mod for melee which is fine, theres a project b going on right now. But most melee lovers are at a skill level where the things you wish to remove dont affect them and are ingrained in the meta. At high levels you might get edge hogged a stock per game but really most people DI so well that they don't need the ledge.

 

[ryuu seika]

because kirby is SSS tier

I've said it before in this thread and I'll say it again. Kirby is awful but that doesn't mean his entire moveset is. Inhale, as it stands, is a broken move, just not enough of one to save the character.
It could, however, stand to lose some ending lag to make its other use less punishable.

One broken move amidst a sea of mediocrity is not the way to make a balanced character.

@ Z zankyou : If these changes would effect the competitive scene so little then what's the harm of trying them? I'll look into "project b".

 

[schmooblidon]

What have you been smoking? I want some.

 

[zankyou]

I've said it before in this thread and I'll say it again. Kirby is awful but that doesn't mean his entire moveset is. Inhale, as it stands, is a broken move, just not enough of one to save the character.
It could, however, stand to lose some ending lag to make its other use less punishable.

One broken move amidst a sea of mediocrity is not the way to make a balanced character.

@ Z zankyou : If these changes would effect the competitive scene so little then what's the harm of trying them? I'll look into "project b".

The changes you are suggesting aren't little. Edgehogging doesnt really affect me because I can normally DI in a way to be able to make it to the stage. If I could just pop my opponent off the ledge that would make good DI irrelevant because you're basically guaranteed the ledge.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Why the heck would you nerf an F Tier character?

It's not like swallowcide is THAT bad, It can easily be avoided

 

[ryuu seika]

@ Z zankyou : I wouldn't say the ledge was guaranteed as you can still be attacked before you get to it, meaning your positioning (and thus DI) will still maintain some importance, but I can see where you're coming from with this. You raise valid concerns and I will have to reconsider the solution.

@ MudkipUniverse : You, on the other hand, merely remain fixated on one perceived problem, with no ability to look past it and see the responses given. This is an early stages draft of an idea which sets out to fix the infinites and 1 hit KOs of the game, with rebalancing to come later in whatever form is required.
If you have nothing new to say, please get out of my thread.

 

[schmooblidon]

ok let me address each point.

Who is to say smash 4 ledges are better?
Ledge regrabs wouldn't really change much. Especially if you have smash 4 ledges.
What exactly is this supposed to fix?
Why would you want to remove such a great movement option? It's not broken at all.
Again why?
Would this mean more jumpsquat or what? How would you fullhop?
Sure why not.

Sure why not.
Ok.
Why why why why? Such a random and horrible stage to add.

Such a low priority OHKO to fix, but whatever.
You just ruined the game.
So incredibly random, no one would use that laggy ass moves 3 times together.
Sure, but again a low priority, doesn't stop her from being top tier, plus you just removed the best shield pressure in the game.
K, but maybe like a seperate char or transform. Ganon players obviously like him the way he is.
So it's like a DI trainer? Maybe the best idea here.

Why not SD Remix? What you are suggesting would be a new smash game.

 

[ryuu seika]

The Smash 4 ledge mechanic is going to have to be rethought as it has had some decent points against it, as well as a lot of opposition.
The ledge regrab decay prevents ledge stalling from being safe with, as you say, little effect on the rest of the game. I see no reason therefore to be against the inclusion, though it obviously wouldn't be as beneficial here as in Brawl.
The combo regrab prevention would do what it says it does, disabling chain grabs and any mini combos that would potentially arise to bypass a more Smash 4 style limit. It still allows a slight advantage to the ICs though by giving them a second grab per combo.
Why would I not want to remove such a game changing movement from a game that never needed it in the first place and is therefore better off without a momentum from nowhere exploit?
Grab breakout inputs are reduced to stop the potential for practically instant breakout via inhuman button mashing ability. If I theorize correctly, this should have little (but still some) effect on the average grab game, while increasing the breakout time of things like Yoshi's egg to reasonable levels.
You would simply long/full hop a 30th of a second later, assuming you are already making the minimum possible input, which seems unlikely. If this is really too much of a delay, the alternative is to remove the time dependency altogether and have the two jump buttons function differently. That's something that may not be feasible to code though.

Majora's Mask would be included because it would require very little effort to do so and is a great casual stage. I understand that it's got a ton of problems if you try to play it in a serious fashion but you're losing nothing by having it on the menu screen.

True, it's just one that I'm rather familiar with. Feel free to bring up others.
Really? Having an instantaneous hitbox at nearly any moment with jump cancelability preventing it from even having ending lag is good for the game? I really don't see why those two should ever have had such crazy reflector moves in the first place.
The dizzy Young Link is a thematic change more than anything. Some of the lag could be cut to compensate but really, this should have no effect on anyone of decent skill.
Yes, the lack of instadeath would be a minor buff to Puff that isn't currently needed but, in most cases, the shield break state is almost the same. The real reason for this is simply character consistency, as there is no logical reason why Jigglypuff should have fatal knockback on shield break while noone else has any at all.
I understand why people are reluctant to change Ganondorf but we really need to get over this "every character is sacred" mentality. Roy, Young Link and Dr. Mario were not significant losses in the eyes of the vast majority of the community so why are we so afraid to change a similarly non-unique character into something more cannon?
Yes, Sandbag would be a DI trainer. I'm also considering giving him low level aerial movement so that he can get across the importance of all forms of defensive positioning.

What I am suggesting would retain the physics of Melee but without the potential for (most) infinites, cheap stall tactics or overly baity movement exploit enabled approaches and retreats. Melee SD Remix sounds good, it really does, but it is balanced with these things in place, meaning that their removal would throw that off quite dramatically.

Thanks for the input.

 

[schmooblidon]

The Smash 4 ledge mechanic is going to have to be rethought as it has had some decent points against it, as well as a lot of opposition.
The ledge regrab decay prevents ledge stalling from being safe with, as you say, little effect on the rest of the game. I see no reason therefore to be against the inclusion, though it obviously wouldn't be as beneficial here as in Brawl.
The combo regrab prevention would do what it says it does, disabling chain grabs and any mini combos that would potentially arise to bypass a more Smash 4 style limit. It still allows a slight advantage to the ICs though by giving them a second grab per combo.
Why would I not want to remove such a game changing movement from a game that never needed it in the first place and is therefore better off without a momentum from nowhere exploit?
Grab breakout inputs are reduced to stop the potential for practically instant breakout via inhuman button mashing ability. If I theorize correctly, this should have little (but still some) effect on the average grab game, while increasing the breakout time of things like Yoshi's egg to reasonable levels.
You would simply long/full hop a 30th of a second later, assuming you are already making the minimum possible input, which seems unlikely. If this is really too much of a delay, the alternative is to remove the time dependency altogether and have the two jump buttons function differently. That's something that may not be feasible to code though.

Majora's Mask would be included because it would require very little effort to do so and is a great casual stage. I understand that it's got a ton of problems if you try to play it in a serious fashion but you're losing nothing by having it on the menu screen.

True, it's just one that I'm rather familiar with. Feel free to bring up others.
Really? Having an instantaneous hitbox at nearly any moment with jump cancelability preventing it from even having ending lag is good for the game? I really don't see why those two should ever have had such crazy reflector moves in the first place.
The dizzy Young Link is a thematic change more than anything. Some of the lag could be cut to compensate but really, this should have no effect on anyone of decent skill.
Yes, the lack of instadeath would be a minor buff to Puff that isn't currently needed but, in most cases, the shield break state is almost the same. The real reason for this is simply character consistency, as there is no logical reason why Jigglypuff should have fatal knockback on shield break while noone else has any at all.
I understand why people are reluctant to change Ganondorf but we really need to get over this "every character is sacred" mentality. Roy, Young Link and Dr. Mario were not significant losses in the eyes of the vast majority of the community so why are we so afraid to change a similarly non-unique character into something more cannon?
Yes, Sandbag would be a DI trainer. I'm also considering giving him low level aerial movement so that he can get across the importance of all forms of defensive positioning.

What I am suggesting would retain the physics of Melee but without the potential for (most) infinites, cheap stall tactics or overly baity movement exploit enabled approaches and retreats. Melee SD Remix sounds good, it really does, but it is balanced with these things in place, meaning that their removal would throw that off quite dramatically.

Thanks for the input.

Oh so you mean 5 actionable frames. I dno, grab can be a great combo extender. I get it, but I'm not a fan.

Because wding is fun and an extra option without much technicality. Doing pivots instead would suck ass.

It's about fun again, they would be so boring to play otherwise.

But they didn't remove Roy, yl and doc from melee. Plus they added roy and mew2, and made mario a doc hybrid in PM.

"Overly baity movement exploit enabled approaches and retreats" please don't tell me you are talking about wding.

I get what your thinking of, but you can't exactly call it fixing melee, but rather creating something new. You may as well just balance smash 4.

 

[ryuu seika]

Oh so you mean 5 actionable frames. I dno, grab can be a great combo extender. I get it, but I'm not a fan.

You would still be able to combo into a grab and then combo after the throw/release. You would be able to extend a combo with a grab that way, just not repeatedly.

It's about fun again, they would be so boring to play otherwise.

Can you clarify the context of this line?

I get what your thinking of, but you can't exactly call it fixing melee, but rather creating something new. You may as well just balance smash 4.

That seems reasonable. Personally, I'd rather work from Melee because I find its physics preferable.

 

[Y-L]

It'd probably be much easier for you to just mod project m as brawl is much more mod friendly.

 

[Mr. S]

Why would you fix what isn't broken?

 

[ryuu seika]

Because, of the small proportion of the cast that sees regular play, two are practically the same and one relies heavily on their infinite grab ability to even stand a chance. To add to this, most of the stages are considered unplayable (addressed somewhat in OP update) and the main form of movement seems to be an unnatural sliding thing.

Now tell me that doesn't sound broken.

 

[Mr. S]

You've got to be trolling.

That's so depressingly misinformed that it can't possibly be serious.

 

[Barthurs]

As a Ganondorf main, I think Ganon has a fairly huge difference from falcon. His movement and attacks fill a different role than falcon.

 

[Mr. S]

I just don't see the point. It looks like you just want to put in some super jank ledge mechanics and arbitrarily nerf a whole bunch of characters in ways that pretty much make them awful.

 

[ryuu seika]

That's so depressingly misinformed that it can't possibly be serious.

When was the last time you saw a serious Donkey Kong or Bowser player? Or a Ice Climbers match without atleast 3 prolonged chain grabs? Or even a match on the last I checked still legal Brinstar?
And short of laser properties, what even is the difference between Fox and Falco? I can't say I really play them but I still expected to see something.

As a Ganondorf main, I think Ganon has a fairly huge difference from falcon. His movement and attacks fill a different role than falcon.

Noted. They still bear no resemblance to actual Ganondorf though, right? I will consider this predicament carefully.

EDIT: How do you feel about the changes made with Brawl and Smash 4 'Dorf?

 

[Mr. S]

When was the last time you saw a serious Donkey Kong or Bowser player?

Green Ranger, Phish-It and DJ Nintendo come to mind. At the same time, it isn't that fair to cherry-pick two bad characters and use that as your argument.

Or a Ice Climbers match without atleast 3 prolonged chain grabs?

Attacking a character based on mechanics isn't fair. Ice Climbers players grab a lot because grabs are integral to their play. It's like asking "When was the last time you saw a Young Link match without projectiles?" Would you not say that Young Link uses projectiles because he pretty much has to use them, or would you say you haven't because people keep playing those darn spacies?

Or even a match on the last I checked still legal Brinstar?

Brinstar isn't a legal stage.

And short of laser properties, what even is the difference between Fox and Falco? I can't say I really play them but I still expected to see something.

Fox's lasers come out faster than Falco's, and, unlike Falco's, they do not have hitstun. I think Fox's lasers also do less damage, but I'm not entirely sure on that one.



See, the problem is that you're coming up with uninformed and unreasonable changes to characters and game mechanics based on your opinion while not considering any repercussions to said changes.

Take your Kirby nerf for example. There's no reason to nerf Kirby, and the way in which you want to nerf him is weird. It says "I want to remove this ANNOYING mechanic!" instead of "Removing this mechanic will help to balance the game."

You also said you want to remove wavedashing from the game in a way that also severely cripples wavelanding. Think for just a second about the implications of removing a movement mechanic that is useful to an extent by every character in the game and integral to a few. If you remove wavedashing, characters like Luigi and Samus would become completely horrible, and characters like Ganon and Marth would be hit pretty hard. Wavedashing makes pretty much every character in the game just that much worse; what's the point?

I see where you're coming from with your ideas, but it feels like you're basing your suggestions completely subjectively without considering their consequences.

It just feels like you're trying to impose changes to balance and mechanics while not understanding anything about balance and mechanics.

 

[ryuu seika]

Green Ranger, Phish-It and DJ Nintendo come to mind. At the same time, it isn't that fair to cherry-pick two bad characters and use that as your argument.

No, it isn't really and that's a lot more than I've encountered but hopefully you get my point. Characters like them, Kirby, Game and Watch and even to a lesser extent Pichu have their adamant supporters but, outside of that small diehard fanbase, they don't really see play because they are, as you admit, bad characters. This is wrong. While perfect balance is an impossible task, every character in the game should be good enough to see a decent playerbase.
When all you really see are spacies, puffs, peaches and falcons, something is in need of fixing.

Attacking a character based on mechanics isn't fair. Ice Climbers players grab a lot because grabs are integral to their play. It's like asking "When was the last time you saw a Young Link match without projectiles?" Would you not say that Young Link uses projectiles because he pretty much has to use them, or would you say you haven't because people keep playing those darn spacies?

What, we should just let mechanics slide because the character wouldn't be good without them?
I have nothing against the Ice Climbers, I love those guys, even if I don't play as them. That's part of why I would like to see them do something more and show off the rest of their abilities. I get that they rely on grabs and they could, were this implemented, still chain 3 small attack strings together using their two grabs per combo limit, allowing them to still capitalize on this strength, just not to the exclusion of all else.

As for comparing chain grabs to projectile spamming, there are both similarities and differences, the most notable of the latter being that projectiles don't combo. Instead they allow the one being spammed at to manoeuvre themselves between hits in a way that potentially results in intelligent player interaction.
On the surface, however, the two are both appear one sided and have a large gain to setup ratio. The feature that balances that out is Young Link's weakness to close combat, which puts him in an awful position once the wall of arrows/bombs/'rangs is broken.

And no, Young Link isn't relegated to the sidelines by spacies, he's put there by his general inferiority when compared to Link, though the latter does see reduced play due to being a worse character choice than the aforementioned.

Brinstar isn't a legal stage.

Interesting. Any idea why the change was made from counterpick to banned?
Also, see Rainbow Cruise as my backup example.

Fox's lasers come out faster than Falco's, and, unlike Falco's, they do not have hitstun.

I asked what else was different. I know about the lasers but haven't seen any other traits that separate the two.

 

[Mr. S]

No, it isn't really and that's a lot more than I've encountered but hopefully you get my point. Characters like them, Kirby, Game and Watch and even to a lesser extent Pichu have their adamant supporters but, outside of that small diehard fanbase, they don't really see play because they are, as you admit, bad characters. This is wrong. While perfect balance is an impossible task, every character in the game should be good enough to see a decent playerbase.
When all you really see are spacies, puffs, peaches and falcons, something is in need of fixing.

I hear you on this one, and I agree. It's hard to balance a large roster though. Having 12 generally viable and unique characters and others that can fit a secondary utility role (e.g. Young Link) is pretty good. The problem with making a whole bunch of characters balanced is that you're bound to end up with a whole bunch of disgusting gimmicks that aren't fun to play against (see: Project M).

What, we should just let mechanics slide because the character wouldn't be good without them?
I have nothing against the Ice Climbers, I love those guys, even if I don't play as them. That's part of why I would like to see them do something more and show off the rest of their abilities. I get that they rely on grabs and they could, were this implemented, still chain 3 small attack strings together using their two grabs per combo limit, allowing them to still capitalize on this strength, just not to the exclusion of all else.

And that hurts them pretty bad because of how much the Icies do need to grab. Without wavedash-->f/dsmash and lots of reliable (chain)grab options, they're pretty boned.

As for comparing chain grabs to projectile spamming, there are both similarities and differences, the most notable of the latter being that projectiles don't combo.

Projectiles are fantastic at starting and perpetuating combos. There'd be no good reason to use them otherwise. The point of the argument was that it's not fair to attack a character based on something integral to their play.

Instead they allow the one being spammed at to manoeuvre themselves between hits in a way that potentially results in intelligent player interaction.

Grabbing does this too. If you're being grabbed, throw nairs and DI out (handoff is situational and wobbling is oftentimes banned). Or just maneuver so you don't get grabbed so much.

On the surface, however, the two are both appear one sided and have a large gain to setup ratio. The feature that balances that out is Young Link's weakness to close combat, which puts him in an awful position once the wall of arrows/bombs/'rangs is broken.

YL isn't even that weak to close combat though. Characters that body him are those who can combo him around (Falco, Falcon). YL has quite a few utilities for close combat.

And no, Young Link isn't relegated to the sidelines by spacies, he's put there by his general inferiority when compared to Link

I hope this isn't serious.

Interesting. Any idea why the change was made from counterpick to banned?
Also, see Rainbow Cruise as my backup example.

Rainbow Cruise is banned too.

I asked what else was different. I know about the lasers but haven't seen any other traits that separate the two.

I'm a bad reader.

Fox and Falco are completely different. Their movement properties are different. Their attack properties are all different. Their recoveries are different. Their shines are different. Fox and Falco have similar-looking movesets that are very different from one another, much like Ganon and Falcon.

 

[ryuu seika]

Fox and Falco are completely different. Their movement properties are different. Their attack properties are all different. Their recoveries are different. Their shines are different. Fox and Falco have similar-looking movesets that are very different from one another, much like Ganon and Falcon.

Interesting. That doesn't seem to come across to an observer as readily as Falcon vs. Ganon, I had no idea they were so different.
I do think they require a greater visual distinction but have no idea where to start with that.

 

[Mr. S]

I think you should watch some matches then. They're clearly very different characters.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

how the heck do you have over 3,000 messages sent on smashboards, yet don't know most of the differences between Fox and Falco?

Also Green Ranger got 9th at Fight Pitt V, and Phish-it got 9th at Zenith 2014. Donkey Kong is better than Yoshi IMO

15. DK
16. Yoshi
17. Young Link
18. Link

also the pack sounds horrible

 

[Firejew]

This is what happens when brawl people try to melee.
Everyone please learn.

 

[ryuu seika]

This is what happens when brawl people try to melee.
Everyone please learn.

Dude, don't even go there. Brawl was by far my least favourite in the series.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

@ ryuu seika judging from that statement, I have no Idea why the hell people hate brawl anymore.

 

[Firejew]

My bad bruh, just was browsing your post history because I was also wondering how you had 3,000 posts.
Most of what I read was about Sm4sh or Brawl Kirbs.

 

[ryuu seika]

My bad bruh, just was browsing your post history because I was also wondering how you had 3,000 posts.
Most of what I read was about Sm4sh or Brawl Kirbs.

My recent posts will be a mix of Smash 4 Kirby and stuff relating to stage and character ideas. The latter because I have a strong interest in hypothetical, creative and design oriented discussion. The former because 4 is the new game and I figured it might be a chance for a new start in a less monotonous game than the last. Turns out, while 4 is pretty reasonable, it's not really what Melee was, hence why I find myself here, failing to convince the community of the fact that Melee has flaws that aught to be addressed.

So, lets set aside Wave Dashing and Kirbycides for the time being, why do you lot wish to keep chain grabbing around? In a game series where there are relatively few true combos of major length and players are required to understand DI (among other techniques) to escape or to counter said escape, isn't having an unstoppable infinite detrimental to the overall ethos of the game? No matter how hard it may or may not be to continue, when the chain grab is going, only one player is playing. Wouldn't we all rather see combos that require a level of mental warfare? Wouldn't that level and type of domination be a more satisfying win?
Enlighten me as to why I'm wrong here, I'm genuinely curious as to your side of the argument.

P.S.: As for why my posts so often relate to Kirby, he's my main. He's the character who feels most natural to me and the one with whom I first learnt to play Melee. Where you get Brawl from, however, I don't know. I got bored of that game pretty quickly and nolonger even own it.

 

[Y-L]

Chaingrabbing isn't an infinite.. I mean, it works to a certain percent and then it doesn't. Plus, you can DI chaingrabs to mess up your opponent. If you DI slightly behind then it forces them to do perfect pivots to continue the chaingrab. Fox chain grabbing another spacie, the other can shine at ~30% to stop the chain grab. They can be annoying, but it's not as bad as you're making it out to be. If you use DI correctly, you can trick your opponent into losing the chain grab.

 

[ryuu seika]

Ok, noted, what about IC's chaingrab which regrabs at pretty much the instant of release?

 

[Mr. S]

The handoff? It doesn't cg past 2-3 grabs unless you're at the edge of the stage or a platform, and its execution is hard enough where it really isn't too much of a problem imo.

 

[zankyou]

Ok, noted, what about IC's chaingrab which regrabs at pretty much the instant of release?

Most chaingrabs happen on FD which everyone is aware isnt a balanced stage. Its just neutral so we keep it around. People only really care about wobbling. Handoffs are rare. If there were more people doing it I could see an argument against it but theres probably only a handful of people who can. Sheiks chaingrabs are broken and destroy anything thats not S tier but if you want to fix that nintendo already did. Grab pal sheik.

 

[ryuu seika]

While I agree that FD makes things significantly worse, I've seen tournament finals and semis which were literally just Foxes jumping down off Battlefield platforms and back up to rack up damage, while their Ice Climber opponents simply lay in wait for the single opening they needed to grab them all across the stage.

The ICs weren't perfect and so it would occasionally take 2 attempts to take the stock and they didn't win the match. Nor, IIRC, was the IC able to win when their opponent counterpicked ICs themself. Infact, when that matchup forced them to play a non-grabby game, they looked pretty mediocre.

The idea that this one technique can get someone of comparatively low skill level into the last rounds of a tournament by itself seems pretty crazy.

Also, TY on the Sheik tip off, I always wondered why that ability only seemed to exist in some tournament streams and never IRL (I'm a UK player).

 

[zankyou]

While I agree that FD makes things significantly worse, I've seen tournament finals and semis which were literally just Foxes jumping down off Battlefield platforms and back up to rack up damage, while their Ice Climber opponents simply lay in wait for the single opening they needed to grab them all across the stage.

The ICs weren't perfect and so it would occasionally take 2 attempts to take the stock and they didn't win the match. Nor, IIRC, was the IC able to win when their opponent counterpicked ICs themself. Infact, when that matchup forced them to play a non-grabby game, they looked pretty mediocre.

The idea that this one technique can get someone of comparatively low skill level into the last rounds of a tournament by itself seems pretty crazy.

Also, TY on the Sheik tip off, I always wondered why that ability only seemed to exist in some tournament streams and never IRL (I'm a UK player).

What tournaments are you watching. With those where wobbling was banned, I havent seen an IC of low level make it into the last rounds. Also you can't take matchups into consideration like that. You ever watch to high level jiggs fight each other. In some match ups the characters are just mediocre.
It also probably took 2 attempts because you have to get a read on the DI to combo into a wobble because the person can mash out under say 40.