PAC! vs. ARVY vids ~(falcon, falco, fox, and zelda inside)~

[PacStrife]

So these are some vids that were taken this last weekend at a local gaming lounge. Tell us what you guys think and as always any criticism is welcome:

PAC!(falcon) vs. ARVY(Sheik) FD - http://www.megaupload.com/?d=KHAO1VDV
youtube - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDwjkBs8vyM

PAC!(falcon) vs. ARVY(Falco) FD - http://www.megaupload.com/?d=98JPBM75
youtube - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlXxh0YuRZw

PAC!(falcon) vs. ARVY(zelda/sheik) FD - http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2WDUBA2O
youtube - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuHj5F7_ixA

PAC!(fox) vs. ARVY(zelda/sheik) FD - http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5E1Z4K5T
youtube - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0kX5n1A1a8

PAC!(falcon) vs. ARVY(sheik) PS - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gValSVdIzcA

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Added for ARVY

PAC!(falcon) vs. ARVY(zelda) FD - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNw8Y3ftHwI

PAC!(ganon) vs. ARVY(zelda/sheik) PS - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya7Ho0W3tbU

Please post comments after watching you guys

 

[justice]

I'm arvy but go by a different name here. It used to be arvelous but that is too long of a smash name so it got shortened. To arvy I guess by some people.

 

[Eggz]

Pac had a pretty good Falcon, nice tech skill developing. and I could see that Arvelous' zelda and shiek are the makings of some good spacing.

Arvelous: Work on your ledgeguarding, and use more aerial needles.

PAC: Work on your spacing and techchases.

 

[Shellshock821]

Good matches on both sides. Pac, very nice job with the waveshining. Solid Falcon, no comment. I don't really know what to say except don't suicide as much.

As for Arvy, I'm fairly certain you can smash DI out of shine to the point were all the Fox can do is shine then go for grab instead of keep getting shined till your off the level. At least with Sheik I believe.

Overall nice to the both of you guys.

 

[justice]

Pac had a pretty good Falcon, nice tech skill developing. and I could see that Arvelous' zelda and shiek are the makings of some good spacing.

Arvelous: Work on your ledgeguarding, and use more aerial needles.

PAC: Work on your spacing and techchases.

Thanks Eggz
I'll try that! Zelda and Sheik FTW. Argh it's kinda sad that my Zelda does better than Sheik.

Did I moonwalk with Zelda? O_O
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuHj5F7_ixA
at 2:27

 

[Miharu]

IMO, Pac, your Falcon is way too passive. You shouldn't be in your shield so much, and relying on shieldgrabbing/rolling around your opponent to open up opportunities. You should be using nair to grabs, then tech-chasing with dair/nair/knee/forward b or more grabs from there. And don't forget the standard throw to knee combos and Sheik.

Solid Fox, though.

 

[l0zR=)]

james i liek th efact you are getting some vids up, but how did you do it, you still got my vcr son in yo trunk i need it for munkaid to get some footage. Im about to check the vids up put up now

 

[justice]

Well, if anymore Sheik, Zelda, Falco, and Falcon players could give us some advice I would appreciate it alot!

IMO, Pac, your Falcon is way too passive. You shouldn't be in your shield so much, and relying on shieldgrabbing/rolling around your opponent to open up opportunities. You should be using nair to grabs, then tech-chasing with dair/nair/knee/forward b or more grabs from there. And don't forget the standard throw to knee combos and Sheik.

Solid Fox, though.

Also I realized how good Falcon is thanks to Pac. In some of the matches I was forced to shield or dodge the whole time. I wouldn't say his Falcon was passive at all. In some of the matches I had to go for alot of shield grabs. Because of how fast he was attacking me. Well I think he got really close to breaking my shield too. So I had to start wavedashing more. Pac is really good I bet some NC players already know what he can do. When he is really serious.

Also Eggz thanks for all the help. I will incoporate it.

 

[PacStrife]

Thanks for the input Hydro Kirby and Eggz. I would like to be like, "I play different in tourneys or w/e" but no johns. I find that I am sometimes passive do to the fact that I am reading my opponent or trying to bait my opponent into doing something I want them to do. I just try to be more reactive I guess. Adam I think Megz has your VCR man you can probably get it whenever.

Thanks for the feedback so far guys, it is really appreciated and please keep the comments coming.

 

[DaBearX]

First, way to rep shiek & zelda. Im no master at smash and my tech skill is pretty poor, but I would say arvy you need to wavedash more with sheik, you wavedash more with zelda than sheik as far as I can tell... which is awesome for zelda, but kinda poor for sheik. Too much sheik rolling. Try wavedashing out of your shield more (if pac gives you time to). Also, I have been finding recently that people crouch cancel counter my sheik downtilts a lot, so ive started using them more sparingly in replacing them with the other tilts or downsmash, if you have trouble with the same maybe consider this. Mmmm, maybe more grabbing and techchasing etc. With zelda, I dunno it looks pretty good... good mobility. You seem to use thunderkicks more sparingly than I do which might not be a bad thing. You should consider downsmashing more, its a pretty underrated move, use it almost like ganons jab. Its a pretty good edgeguard against falcon as well if timed right.

If you think I was overcritical feel free to counter critique me here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh3u-A8DLyM
Its just a random friendly but I rarely beat this guy anyway.

In short, you have the best sig ever. Tales FTW.

 

[justice]

DaBearX:
Thank you for the advice. All the stuff you said will come in handy. Yeah my tech skill is kinda bad as well. But I'm pretty sure we both can improve that soon.

Try learning when your opponent is going to do stuff and try fake outs every once in a while if that helps.

But if you do too many fake outs your opponent will catch on and attack during the period of fake outs. Needles and the chain are great against fox if you can pull it off while they are recovering to the stage. If you want to rake up alot of damage try to get fox of the edge and needle him to death or use the chain for a while or a mix. The more needles you have charged up the easier it is. It allows some room for mistakes. Since Fox is all charging and etc.

EDIT: I noticed alot of foxes when they you get to high damage likes to up throw to up air or Just Up smash. So be wary of that and keep distance. Some will try to fake you out for a sure victory then upsmash. Also since you are at high damage you are more pruned to sheilding or dodging. So your opponent might know this as well. So you could use this to your advantage maybe.

Also some simple just holding the edge hogging is good too if you wait to the right moment because most foxs and falcos try to hug the edge alot.

Also I loved the lightling kick from behind with Zelda.

Thanks for the comment on the sig. It's just some sprites I found and Aoko from Melty Blood act Cadenza.

Also I know my Zelda don't spam the Lightling kick too much. I just like more magical attacks more. I'll see what I can do next time. I use lightling kick sometimes to make my opponent get away from me, from fear of the lightling kick or dieing . That is why I do blank full jumps or short jumps sometimes.

Edit: Thanks Pac for adding the 4stocks one. I wanted to see how you did it so fast.
Pac if I remember correctly there are still some real good ones you can show. I don't mind at all. Well I'll keep on trying to become better. So next time it'll be more better for the both of us.

Also keep the comments coming for the both us and thank you.

 

[Eggz]

Also use aerial needles when they are like on the stage. you can combo it into stuff. Its like an aerial jab.

EDIT: Just noticed that PAC had a couple of fat combos. Just thought I'd point that out.

Your Falcon needs to work on it's approaches. Basically D-Air and N-air are your best approaches.

 

[PacStrife]

Well thanks for the comments guys we really appreciate them and will try to incorporate some of these suggestions into our game play. ARVY I'm sad to say that I think that is the last of the matches I will put up for now. I think they are a pretty good representation of where we are right now. We will put up some more at a later date, at which time I'm sure we will both be better! Well thanks again for all the comments and I hope yall enjoyed watching some of the fights.

~PAC!

Ps. my combos are fat

 

[justice]

Also use aerial needles when they are like on the stage. you can combo it into stuff. Its like an aerial jab.

EDIT: Just noticed that PAC had a couple of fat combos. Just thought I'd point that out.

Your Falcon needs to work on it's approaches. Basically D-Air and N-air are your best approaches.

Thanks for the tips Eggz.

Well thanks for the comments guys we really appreciate them and will try to incorporate some of these suggestions into our game play. ARVY I'm sad to say that I think that is the last of the matches I will put up for now. I think they are a pretty good representation of where we are right now. We will put up some more at a later date, at which time I'm sure we will both be better! Well thanks again for all the comments and I hope yall enjoyed watching some of the fights.

~PAC!

Ps. my combos are fat

Alright I think that is good enough anyways. Thanks for your time and help. I'll make sure to get to some of this stuff.

 

[vZakat]

O.K. for falco, you need to use lasers more. If there's anytime your opponent is not right on you, you should shl or retreating shl. Also work on your pillaring and your shine/dair combos.

for shiek, grab more. Down throw then techchase for another grab. Wavedash more and, If fox/falco is returning to the stage you can jump out and fair them.

I don't play the other characters, so I can't comment on improvement. I want to play you guys, I live in Raleigh but I go to school in florida. Over the summer I'll try to contact you and others in the area.

 

[justice]

O.K. for falco, you need to use lasers more. If there's anytime your opponent is not right on you, you should shl or retreating shl. Also work on your pillaring and your shine/dair combos.

for shiek, grab more. Down throw then techchase for another grab. Wavedash more and, If fox/falco is returning to the stage you can jump out and fair them.

I don't play the other characters, so I can't comment on improvement. I want to play you guys, I live in Raleigh but I go to school in florida. Over the summer I'll try to contact you and others in the area.

Thanks for the advice man. I'll try to do that.

Me too, but the opposite I'm from Florida, but go to school here.

 

[darkatma]

Hmm.. Zelda critique

You're missing a few important things for a zelda matchup that most people miss(this is why there aren't very many good zeldas out there)

I'll go specific to general

Zelda/Sheik vs Fox match:
-Don't approach fox that often. Against fox, you want to mix up defense and offense. Your direct approach (dash attacking into his shield on the front side) lead to a waveshine-death. You need to be careful in this matchup, keeping the spacing at all times to avoid any shine combos.

-When you're waveshined, i didn't notice you DIing away. You should always mix up DI away and crouch cancel DI, and you should always be able to escape without getting shined all the way across the stage to death. When you get shined off the stage, use double jump AWAY from the stage. There's 2 reasons: 1)You avoid fox coming down to shine you and 2)it gives you a much better angle to recover(since zelda's upB is very linear, you want to be more away instead of under so that when you are forced to teleport onto the stage, you appear closer to the ground. You leave yourself open a lot because you teleport high up into the air because you are too far under the stage and not far enough out.) You should always be able to avoid waveshine. Waveshine-upsmash is a bit harder to avoid.

-I don't see enough SH fair/bair. You need to short hop them to punish correctly. If you short hop, you space correctly. (actually i didnt see any at all, go to training mode and practice until you can get double SH bair/fair and l cancel perfectly, then try that out of shield)

-Dsmash? use Dsmash against fox a lot. Hell, spam it while moving around, it's faster than fox's upsmash, and it knocks fox away so you have breathing space.
I didn't see any good grab opportunities, so i'll leave grabs for the CF critique part


First CF vs Zelda/Sheik match:
-Lol nice song...popcorn Anyways, nice first kill, the fsmash is very useful because it has long reach and it lags their shield a lot.

-I still don't see enough SH fairs and bairs (just work on it)

-Nice double jumped kick at 0:42. That's the kind of spacing i wanna see more often

-Against sh-dair happy falcons, you really want to usmash a bunch. usmash is perfect height to catch them before the stomp. It leads to good combos often. (Also, if you can learn it, upsmash out of shield)

-again, lots more dsmash please. i notice you stop dash dancing and wavedashing when pressured, so try not to forget.



Zelda vs Falcon game on bottom
-teleport games are useless with a tag, so don't use them if you have one. Actually, take the tag off, zeldas and mewtwos never play with tags because it ruins the mindgame level.

-alright, i found a perfect example of a time to jump out of shield with a SH fair. 0:44, after you shielded a dsmash, that was perfect spacing for sh fair. learn the spacing well. memorize that space in between. If the character is any closer than that, use a retreating fair or bair going forward (cstick the attack, jump the oppostie direction). If the char is farther you can drop the shield and space more until you get within that distance again.

-usually, don't let falcons (and falcos for that matter) come from directly above. wavedash and dashdance to prevent being directly under, because you always always want to be slightly off center when you shield, for a perfect bair/fair out of shield. Or just jump up with a nair before he attacks.

-okay i noticed you got lucky and got many many grabs. You wasted all of them! every grab after 10%, use uthrow, all the way up to 80%, you can either chaingrab or land a free kick. It's almost guaranteed, all you need is the timing. zelda's grab would be godly if it started 4 frames earlier. but since you got that grab opportunity, throw upwards. (my combo vid has lots of examples of chaingrabs, but not so much dsmash, use dsmash a lot too)

-and seriously SH SH SH a lot more at 1:10, you could've gotten a sexy dair spike kill if you SHed!

-last thing for now: don't leave yourself open with overly agressive edgeguarding. I saw a time you jumped off the stage, missed, teleported way high up, and proceeded to get owned by falcon because of the laaaag. Always plan to sweetspot the ledge if you jump out, and usually just guard from the stage.


That's all i have for now.
Since you don't have a GCN, borrow a friend's, and spend an hour in training mode practicing:
1)sh fair/bair
2)sh double fair double bairs
3)sh fair/bair-wavelanding (great spacing)
4)chaingrab: (get a fox, falco, or CF, put them on evade at 10%, start grabbing and throw upwards, learn what to do in every situation for the most damage.
5)get a friend to help you learn all the ways to sweetspot the ledge. sweetspotting is very very important.
6)the ledgestall infinite, mixes up things at the ledge


overall, sometimes your zelda does pretty well, but a lot of times, you just need to be aware of your options. try to be more creative.

Hope that helped

 

[justice]

Hmm.. Zelda critique

You're missing a few important things for a zelda matchup that most people miss(this is why there aren't very many good zeldas out there)

I'll go specific to general

Zelda/Sheik vs Fox match:
-Don't approach fox that often. Against fox, you want to mix up defense and offense. Your direct approach (dash attacking into his shield on the front side) lead to a waveshine-death. You need to be careful in this matchup, keeping the spacing at all times to avoid any shine combos.

-When you're waveshined, i didn't notice you DIing away. You should always mix up DI away and crouch cancel DI, and you should always be able to escape without getting shined all the way across the stage to death. When you get shined off the stage, use double jump AWAY from the stage. There's 2 reasons: 1)You avoid fox coming down to shine you and 2)it gives you a much better angle to recover(since zelda's upB is very linear, you want to be more away instead of under so that when you are forced to teleport onto the stage, you appear closer to the ground. You leave yourself open a lot because you teleport high up into the air because you are too far under the stage and not far enough out.) You should always be able to avoid waveshine. Waveshine-upsmash is a bit harder to avoid.

-I don't see enough SH fair/bair. You need to short hop them to punish correctly. If you short hop, you space correctly. (actually i didnt see any at all, go to training mode and practice until you can get double SH bair/fair and l cancel perfectly, then try that out of shield)

-Dsmash? use Dsmash against fox a lot. Hell, spam it while moving around, it's faster than fox's upsmash, and it knocks fox away so you have breathing space.
I didn't see any good grab opportunities, so i'll leave grabs for the CF critique part


First CF vs Zelda/Sheik match:
-Lol nice song...popcorn Anyways, nice first kill, the fsmash is very useful because it has long reach and it lags their shield a lot.



and.. Dam i g2g.. i'll finish up later, i have lots more to say though..

overall, sometimes your zelda does pretty well, but a lot of times, you just need to be aware of your options. try to be more creative, and i'll post a lot of stuff you might want to work on later.

Thanks alot Darkatma you really went in depth that help alot!! Also I will try these things the next time. I don't have a cube anymore.

 

[darkatma]

Mmm just got back and edited in a hunk of text. sorry if reading that is a pain>< lots of hw atm, so hope that helped

dam sucks how you don't have a gamecube. Borrow a friend's practice a while in training mode. those things mentioned are really important.

 

[justice]

Mmm just got back and edited in a hunk of text. sorry if reading that is a pain>< lots of hw atm, so hope that helped

dam sucks how you don't have a gamecube. Borrow a friend's practice a while in training mode. those things mentioned are really important.

Thank you so much for all your help. You don't know how much it means to me that you responded and helped me. Thanks alot darkatma!! This is great.

 

[Tapion013]

Falcon vs Sheik (1)

Falcon: In this matchup you really need to down throw sheik. Sheik can nair before falcon can do anything if sheik DI's away at low percents. Then once you break about 60% damage on her, that's when you upthrow knee, or upthrow upair knee. At low percents, if you down throw sheik she either has to tech (DIing away) or gets nair comboed (DI's towards) or chain grabbed (No DI)

Speaking of combosYou really need to start gettin those combos down and make sure you're in the air before doing some moves (I noticed the fsmash that was suppose to be a knee. Woulda been great too.) Haven't watched the others yet, but a good falcon needs to be able to finish his combos.

Sheik: Your edgeguarding was very very poor. There were lots of parts where falcon shouldn't have had a chance, but you felt like falling off with back airs anyway. You're better off edgeguarding by running off, fast falling, and jumping up with a nair right along the edge. Needles also work throwing falcon off his rhythm often resulting in a hurried upB which can get faired or downsmashed.

You also need to needle more in general. Needles stop any dash dancing that falcon can do, and often hits them out of shffled aerials. You also need to get combos down better. Dash attacks and upsmashes are great combo starts for sheik on falcon. Also start tech chasing with grabs, it's annoying. You also need to start teching yourself. It appears to me (at least in this match) you tried to jump out of everything, so you never teched (except once off a nair). Sometimes you need to tech, sometimes you need to break up the combo with an aerial, don't always mash jump.

Falcon vs Falco

Falcon: Much better job keeping the pressure on, although Falco didn't make that too hard. You followed him nicely, but you still do need to work a little bit on your tech chasing after throws. You can't react, you have to know/guess. A good tactic is to use raptor boost in a direction right next to where they land. You can either run behind them and go back where you were, or stay next to them and go the direction you're facing. This cuts off 2 options each time, (Teching in place and tech rolling in one direction if timed properly)meaning you have a 2/3 chance of getting it right. raptor boost is a great tech chaser, start applying it. Upsmash is also brutal on space animals. It can combo into itself, raptor boosts, knees, etc. You looked much better here than in your last match however. little tip: If someone holds down on you when you stomp them, get used to jabbing right after a stomp. If timed right, the stomp will knock them to the ground, and the jab will force them to get up in place. Start charging that upsmash

Falco: Not agressive enough and a little too slow. If you're gonna play falco you need to learn to waveshine to be able to adjust to DI and combo better. Lasers are also much more effective if you can move and shoot them instead of running to a safe distance and shooting in place. Dsmash is a good edgeguarder, on occaision forward smash.

Again it looked like you tried to jump out of every throw without trying to tech. You HAVE to tech falcon's throws until about 75-80%. Start teching and stop mashing that jump button!

Falcon vs Sheik (2, stadium match)

This'll be the last I evaluate, since most of my tips will be the same. Great music btw.

Falcon: Something new I noticed is you have trouble edgeguarding sheik. The best way to edgeguard sheik is to hang on the ledge and wait for her to come to you instead of trying to charge a downsmash. That will probably never work. Hang on the ledge and jump up and down on it to gain the invincibility frames back, then once sheik gets to you, depending on where she goes, use the lag after her upB to your advantage for either a knee, upair knee, or something to knock her back off the stage (Maybe even a ledge hop stomp knee). Combos were a little better, but you still need to get more consistent, although I think you knew that already

Sheik: Again, like Pac, your edgeguarding was pretty poor. nairs on the stage aren't very effectve, and you got lucky that Pac doesn't know hot to properly evade on stage attacks, and instead was probably trying to ledge tech your attacks which is not as safe or effective. Sheik's really effective way out there off the stage, so have some fun. Get out there and smack 'em around, don't wait for them to come to the stage, by then your major edge guarding advantage is gone.

Little better use of needles, but still could be better. Start using them in the air and using needle canceling to your advantage. Your grab game also needs to improve a little. I agree with a couple others that falcon is in his shield too much, but I also don't think he really needs to worry about it too much since you don't grab unless it's a shield grab; you try to tilt and dsmash or dash attack instead. Start mixing in grabs.

Overall you guys are both pretty decent. The falcon looks a little better than the sheik, but also looks more experienced. Arvy, I'd recommend not playing falco unless you want to do it just for fun until you can get his short hopping attacks and shine combos down better. And of course, edge guard better. Both of you had a pretty big problem edgeguarding. There were lots of times even at low percents (below 50) where the other should have died, or if not that at least gotten another 40-50% damage on them while they were struggling to get back. Keep 'em out there!

 

[justice]

Thanks alot Tapion!!! This alot of information to take down. I'll try my best to intergrate it all.

 

[PacStrife]

Thanks you very much Tapion. I will be sure to try to incorporate all of the things you talked about in your post. This was probably the second time I have ever fought a sheik player so I will learn to get those combos down as a play more. Some of the options you gave for edge guarding were especially helpful to me as I find I have a tendency to not edge guard too well. I will review what you said more later, just know that I really appreciate it man. THANKS!

 

[darkatma]

tapion pwns lol. How come he doesnt give huge critiques for my sheik >_>
lol

Yea go practice! steal a gamecube, make sure it's ntsc1.0 too

 

[lavagolem123]

Nice matches with Zelda/Falcon. Very well used Nayryu's Love by the way. Oh and maybe use the N-Air once in a while. Sometimes I use it as a set up for tilts on fast-fallers, mainly up-tilt(they have to be shielding obviously). A little risky but has nice payoff. My Zelda is retired now though, so take this advice lightly.

 

[Tapion013]

tapion pwns lol. How come he doesnt give huge critiques for my sheik >_>

You never sent me a PM with a link to a topic loaded with videos asking for help :-P I'm too lazy to help people that don't ask since there are so many that ask as it is.

 

[darkatma]

You never sent me a PM with a link to a topic loaded with videos asking for help :-P I'm too lazy to help people that don't ask since there are so many that ask as it is.

Ah That's what i thought it was
Justice did a good job with the PMs ;P

 

[justice]

Ah That's what i thought it was
Justice did a good job with the PMs ;P

Sorry about that but I really appreciated your help and I sent a pm explaining what happened.

Nice matches with Zelda/Falcon. Very well used Nayryu's Love by the way. Oh and maybe use the N-Air once in a while. Sometimes I use it as a set up for tilts on fast-fallers, mainly up-tilt(they have to be shielding obviously). A little risky but has nice payoff. My Zelda is retired now though, so take this advice lightly.

Thanks I'll try to take some risks, to see what I can do.

tapion pwns lol. How come he doesnt give huge critiques for my sheik >_>
lol

Yea go practice! steal a gamecube, make sure it's ntsc1.0 too

Thanks man!! :D

 

[tarheeljks]

the falco needs to laser more, he should also waveshine more instead of just using normal jc'ed shines.

 

[PacStrife]

I just wanted to say Thank you again for all the great comments it really has helped a lot. after a while maybe I will be good enough to offer other people help too Thanks guys!!

 

[justice]

the falco needs to laser more, he should also waveshine more instead of just using normal jc'ed shines.

Thanks, I'll get on it.

Thanks for the comments like Pac said and I hope to help other players as well in Melee or brawls. It doesn't matter, thanks everyone for your help.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

Great matches! BTW, what was the name of the song in the 4th match?

 

[thatsmybutta]

yo the falcon's gotta chain grab

 

[PacStrife]

Thanks guys, the name of the song in the fourth match is "take me out" by Franz Ferdinand glad that some people like the matches!

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

Thanks guys, the name of the song in the fourth match is "take me out" by Franz Ferdinand glad that some people like the matches!

Oh whoops I meant the 3rd match.

 

[PacStrife]

kk, the song in the third match is called, popcorn. the artist name is Hot Butter. Hope that helps:

 

[justice]

Thanks everyone. Falcon's chain grab can be teched right?

 

[justice]

Well I'm going to Florida soon, for a little while I was wondering is there anyone in the Jacksonville area?