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I used to think this, but I'm starting to think he's bottom 15 :/ Everything you can argue for making him strong can be used against him, along with some other core flaws.
Pacack
I hate to drag our conversation out of xzx's thread, but I want to tag you. I want to point you to Kamekushi vs Earth from EVO 2016 as a great example of why getting people offstage when they shield is huge at high level.
I don't think he's Bottom 15. He has so much going for him to be a low tier.I used to think this, but I'm starting to think he's bottom 15 :/ Everything you can argue for making him strong can be used against him, along with some other core flaws.
Why do you say that for?
In short, he has a ton of mixups, but his tools can all be used against him and his up-close game is lackluster. I think other characters just out-perform him.
I now agree that he's pretty bad...but bottom 15?I used to think this, but I'm starting to think he's bottom 15 :/ Everything you can argue for making him strong can be used against him, along with some other core flaws.
Like what?
Yes. Dabuz put him in bottom 15 too. He didn't delve into specifics, but like he said, Pac just isn't scary if you understand how he works. (actually said if you're willing to time him out, but w/e)
Teshie U
. I didn't believe you two at first, but you both pointed out flaws with pac man that I now acknowledge as critical. It's a shame it took me so long to notice.Sorry for closing. Feel free to discuss the topic anywhere however, or even make a new topic with quotes linked to the closed thread. I think a lot of jabbing and toxic behavior just wasn't going to make that thread go anywhere in the long term.
That's mainly me. I'm a known pessimist when it comes to Pac-Man. Feel free to ignore me, as it is my opinion after all.It seems like you guys really don't talk positive here...
I think Pacman's normals are overall great for racking up damage. His Bonus Fruits have very obscure uses, and it takes a lot of study for the opponent to know exactly what we are doing.It seems like you guys really don't talk positive here...
PacMan's meta with his current kit will come down to fishing for the footstools the japanese megamen do. Refining his shield pressure game is crucial for his neutral to function as well, but having an item in your hand is broken in smash.Aw, the fun thread got closed.
I wanted to tag @Locke 06 and
Locke, you were right about his fruits. They're just not that threatening compared to the other charge B moves. He can 0-40% you with galaxian, but you can just...not get hit. Key takes >2 seconds to charge and only deals 15% lol.
Teshie, you told me about his trampoline not giving him an advantaged state after beating shield. I thought 7% at a time was enough back then, but that just doesn't cut it when you consider risk : reward and what other characters can do. SMH.
The game might be done as far as patches goes, but hopefully pac man gets something to spring him back in the game. His design is so creative, but the devs are just too scared of theorycraft stuff so they gut him on core aspects of a smash character :\
I dunno Rosa-Luma's matchups. Can you summarize who you think is a difficult match for you?
MachoCheeze
were you always in the "pac-man is trash" club, or did you have an epiphany moment recently?
Aaron1997
ggs. What can I do to convince you to drop pac? It pains me to see you cap yourself.
You're allowed to use whoever you want regardless of tiers. Stop trying to force people to drop their main for a top tier.
I read "stop trying to convince people to perform to the best of their ability".
I wouldn't even try to convince him to go top tier, just not pac.
BSP
I Think for now on I'm going to take the M2k route and Duo/Tri main Pac,DH,Shulk. DH has a more reliable Netrual and a WAY better grab game but what keeps me from switching fully is because of DH offstage and Pac has higher Reward off of set-ups then DH. Also I feel I do better with Pac vs good players then DH.
As I said, don't ever try to force people off of a character. Maining a certain charact doesn't hurt you much if at all. If anything, using a lower tiered (That's not really even that accurate since Pac-Man is top 30 but whatever) character or using a harder character (Pac-Man is both) would help you.I read "stop trying to convince people to perform to the best of their ability".
Feel free to put me on ignore, but I truly believe Pac-Man makes you worse at the game as a whole because he kills/stunts the development of your fundamentals. I, being the nice guy that I am, would like people to avoid that route if I can help it.
Nah for the longest time I was in that camp that Pac-Man was underdeveloped/secret high tier until I dropped him for Mewtwo in December. Then I knew what it felt like to play a real character lol.
I'm offering recommendations to a fellow competitive player. I can tell he puts effort into this game, and I would rather see him perform to the best of his ability than stunt himself. If he thinks he can do that with Pac-Man, so be it, but I don't think it's the best move. If that bothers you, I'm sorry, but it's just how I see the matter. I've been down the low tier road in the past. Trust me, unless character loyalty is truly your only motivation, you will get tired of losing to people you are better than because you're playing a limited character.
Aaron1997
told me someone told him a similar thing regarding fundamentals and Pac-Man, and I ram these ideas through @Zage once and I think he agreed. This wouldn't be such a big issue if Pac-Man had strengths to make up for it...but then there's the fact that his specials can all be turned against him easily and he doesn't have a good answer to shield.
Aaron1997
alright, you do that. Let me recommend that when you run into people like me that are content with holding block against you, just take the trampoline hits over, over, and over. Win 7% at a time.
Pac-Man's not low lol, he's top 30 so it isn't like he has no strengths, nor is he "limited" outside of grab. So there's no problem with that.I'm offering recommendations to a fellow competitive player. I can tell he puts effort into this game, and I would rather see him perform to the best of his ability than stunt himself. If he thinks he can do that with Pac-Man, so be it, but I don't think it's the best move. If that bothers you, I'm sorry, but it's just how I see the matter. I've been down the low tier road in the past. Trust me, unless character loyalty is truly your only motivation, you will get tired of losing to people you are better than because you're playing a limited character.
It's not Pac-Man's status as low tier that hurts you, it's his play style itself. Pac-Man is unique in the fact that he can spawn static obstacles that work independently of him. Said obstacles warp the most important state of the game, neutral, to Pac-Man's favor, or they're supposed to least.
How is this bad for you as a player? I guess it's not that big of a problem if you intend to solo main Pac-Man (which shouldn't work out too well, but that's another discussion), but it will surface if you play other characters, and you'll most likely be left behind when it comes to fundamentals when compared to other players.
Pac-Man's tools essentially throw the basics of neutral out of the window. I think Earth is a great example to illustrate what I'm talking about. His neutral play is top notch, and it has to be when playing a character like Pit. Watch him play and pay attention to how he handles the neutral game.
Example; Earth vs Kamemushi from EVO 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFdjKOro514
He goes for reads, safe spacing, safe pokes etc while always considering what his opponent can do in response to his actions. He must always keep in mind what his opponent can do, he can't completely rule anything out.
No matter who Earth plays against, and anyone who plays a normal character for that matter, these skills (Fundamentals) will always be relevant and improved upon.
Pac-Man on the other hand throws this development out of the window with his unique tools. Nobody has a neutral remotely close to his because he warps it so much. He can spawn obstacles that flat out remove options from both players. He has an F1 get out of jail free card that ignores spotdodges and rolls to get out of bad situations.
Spawning a hydrant and standing behind it forces your opponent to do something first in order to threaten you behind the hydrant, assuming they don't have a piercing projectile. You're safe from walk ups, dash ins, etc., and some people are still silly enough to attack the hydrant instead of focusing on Pac-Man. Same thing with a trampoline on the ground. You know that the opponent will have to go airborne to get to you as long as that trampoline is there, baring a few exceptions.
At the end of the day, assuming you're using Pac's tools, you're going to have less options to consider when you're playing neutral as opposed to basically any other character. Since you can cut off options, you won't be developing the skills to deal with said options, along with everything else the opponent can do at the same time. Everyone else that plays other characters is though. Result? You get left behind when it comes to the fundamentals of neutral because you're playing a different game.
Hydrant as defensive option when landing does the same thing. Though far from infallible, it is an option most of the cast must heavily consider when trying to juggle pac man, and a planted one disrupts attempts of catching Pac-Man's landing. No one else has access to something like this, and it breeds bad habits that I see in Pac-Man players all the time (burn double jump while above opponent in order to charge fruit instead of getting back to the ground...)
Then there's the setups....I don't think I've seen any other character mains willing to give up stage control, edge guards, juggle situations, and the like to go attempt some setup that might work. I honestly don't know where this came from, but my guess is from Pac-Man himself since he screams setup potential with his moveset.
Feel free to disagree with me, but I think the character breeds bad habits and stunts your growth based on what I said above. I know some people can play pac and then play other characters just fine, so what I'm saying definitely doesn't apply to everyone. However,
You confuse "force" with "suggest and recommend"
It's not evil, but it's a horrible thing to do.
Every character stunts SOMETHING so it doesn't mean much.
"Pac-Man is Top 30"
Bowser and Lucas are without even the tiniest bit of doubt worse than Pac-Man, and I'd be surprised if Ike and Corrin were too. Disagree with Peach too. Otherwise though I agree with all of that. I don't see what you're getting at, that's only 30 characters so you only disagree with me by a little, and that's only since you overrate a few characters."Pac-Man is Top 30"
More like at least bottom 20
Also your reasoning is very funny.
"I think he's top 30 so he must be decent"
Those are just the characters I was absolutely sure about that they were better than Pac-Man.
(I forgot him the first round, swap him for Bowser because he's not much better) all are debatably around Pac's spot.
Duck Hunt is very underrated, but he probably isn't better than Pac yet, nor is Robin (Although if Pac doesn't start getting better results soon, Duck Hunt could possibly end up just as good by the end of the year tbh). Agree that Pika and Rob are better though, maybe Lucina too idk, I still feel like Pac is most likely better than her.Those are just the characters I was absolutely sure about that they were better than Pac-Man.
DH, ROB and Robin have Pac's gameplan but either with a grab or no way to get ahold of the strenght.
BSP
I know your not forcing me off of pac but I have 1 question. What do you see in me that you dont see in other Pac players? I've never seen you or another player do something like this before. I only pointed you out because I ran into you in FG the other day. I don't generally go around to Pac-Mains telling them he's garbage and they should switch, but I mentioned dropping him to you because of how our games went when you used him. I know Mario does well against him in general, but I felt bad when you would do all of this complex stuff and i'd just block or something because I know I won't die and you know the punishment for grab isn't worth the risk. You used to regularly beat me in Pac vs Mario too, so I'm afraid other players will get to that point with you as well.
Aaron1997
and
BSP
seem like they're cool with this conversation. No need to bring the heat if the primary participants in this discussion are all cool with it.
