Overall usefulness of Counter?

[Lilfut]

First of all: it should probably be mentioned that, in most fighting games, SSB included, I tend to develop my own metagame independently, since the overall metagame tends to become very complacent, meaning I can trip up experienced players who are used to the standard metagame by not behaving predictably. So my own Marth metagame has a heavy focus on Counter, and I have to ask: why does the standard Marth metagame neglect it so much? When used right, it's an incredibly useful move, and I can actually complete a match with nothing else against an inexperienced player. Why is it so neglected compared to his (admittedly great) aerial game in the standard metagame?

 

[MasterOfGalaxies]

I wouldn't say it's neglected, more that all higher level players have moved on to a point where they don't need Counter. For example, counter is very useful against the ICs because it shuts down their desynch blizzard annoyances. Lower level ICs will use stuff like SH desynch blizzards all day against lower level Marths, until they get countered. At the higher levels, the IC main won't be using blizzard like that, because they know they'll get countered, so you don't get to see the Marth countering. Another example is how Counter is very useful if the opponent is returning to the stage with an aerial. Simply countering something like Snake's nair is quite common at the lower levels. But there's a greater chance of killing your opponent if you space a nair or bair to beat Snake's nair, so at higher levels, Marths generally try to space an aerial rather than go the lower risk route with counter.

 

[Shaya]

Counter has it's place. Primarily as a gimping and anti-getting-gimped tool.

The reason people don't have a "heavy focus on counter" is because Marth has multiple 4-6 frame moves that will win in A LOT MORE SITUATIONS AGAINST THE MAJORITY OF THE CAST A MAJORITY OF THE TIME, while doing more damage and having follow ups compared to counter's defensive and "mind game" focussed stuff (as in, it's a great conditioning move if you know how to use it as such).

I won't lie though, I love counter. But it really doesn't have a place in any player's bread and butter arsenal anywhere but the aforementioned off-stage shenanigans. You can focus counter as your primary conditioning tool, but things like retreating neutral airs, pivot grabs and walking do all of that and safer.

 

[Raziek]

Shaya and MoG pretty much hit the nair on the head. It has its place, but the risk/reward is so violently skewed that failing to counter is disastrous.

 

[PEACE7]

The stun jacket *****

 

[Lilfut]

Well, I guess I kind of have a sixth sense of when to counter. I can pretty accurately gauge when the opponent is going to attack, and can pull off a successful counter 90% of the time.

 

[Rave925]

Yes, but can't that 10% kinda kill you? I mean, a counter knocks your opponent a little back, considering you're trying to counter an aerial or something from returning to the edge, but a messed up counter could result in a fresh smash attack knocking you off the stage or even worse. . . .

I think how Shaya explained it could be used is about the best you'll get, since your opponent is forced to come back to the stage using an aerial of some kind and counter would work in many scenarios. But even still, a well spaced fair, bair, or nair would do even better in most circumstances.

 

[Zankoku]

My favorite use of Counter is to stuff players who get too comfortable in their projectile approaches (Peach's glide toss, Pikachu's falling thunderjolts, and to a lesser degree Falco's lasers). In the case of Peach I once hilariously almost KO'd at under 50% off of countering a glide-tossed stitchface.

Other than that, more or less treating it as a "mobile aerial powershield" of sorts kind of works.

 

[Sylarius]

I countered DK's Level 9 Windup Punch (or whatever the highest level is for it) and killed him once while playing someone online. ^^; we still remember it.