Overall throws revamp

The Cape · Mar 19, 2009

This is my initial rough list of what I would like to see some of the throws edited for to make them more useful for tech chasing, killing/getting off the stage, or comboing with.

Opinions please.

Bowser:
U and D throw (LBK)
F and B throw (HBK) (x)
Koopa Klaw (fixed KB or more KBG)

Captain Falcon:
D throw (Higher angle (5-10 degrees))
F and B throw (HBK)
Up and B (HBK)

Charizard:
U throw (LBK)
F throw (LBK)
B throw (HBK)

Diddy:
D throw (Lower angle (towards up))

Donkey Kong:
None

Falco:
U throw (LBK)
D throw (HBK and closer angle)
F throw (HBK)

Fox:
No changes

Ganondorf:
U throw (LBK)
D throw (Higher angle (110?))
B and F throw (HBK)
Up and B (HBK and fix launch AD)

Ice Climbers:
None

Ike:
D throw less KBG
F throw more KBG

Ivysaur:
F and B throw (HBK)

Jigglypuff:
D and U throws (LBK)
F and B throws (HBK)

King Dedede:
U throw (less KBG)
D throw (less BKB or put in ground with set time)
F throw (lower angle)
D throw (more KBG)

Kirby:
U throw (HBK)

Link:
D throw (Higher angle towards the top)
U throw (LBK)
F and B throws (HBK)

Lucario:
U throw (HKBG)

Lucas:
D throw (less KBG)
U throw (more KBG)
B throw (more KBG)
F throw (less KBG and lower angle)

Luigi:
???

Mario:
B throw (higher BKB)
U throw (HKBG)

Marth:
?

Metaknight:
F throw (HBK)
D throw (more KBG)

Mr. Game and Watch:
No changes

Ness:
U throw (LBK)

Olimar:
D throw higher ange (towards up)

Peach:
U throw (LBK)
F throw (HBK)

Pikacku:
D throw (HBK) (x)
U throw (LBK)

Pit:
D throw (LSK)

ROB:
D throw (LSK)
U throw (HBK)

Samus:
D throw (LBK)
U throw (LBK)
F and B throw (HBK)

Sheik:
No changes

Snake:
F and B throw (LBK)
U throw (higher base, lower growth)

Sonic:
F throw (less winddown)
D throw, make untechable
B throw (HBK)

Squirtle:
D throw (lower KBG)

Toon Link:
No changes

Wario:
U throw (LBK)

Wolf:
B throw (less cooldown)
F throw (HBK, HSK)
U throw (LBK, LSK)

Yoshi:
U throw (LBK)
F and B throw (HBK)
Egg poop (stay in egg longer)

Zelda:
F and B throw (HBK)

ZSS:
F throw (LBK) (Lower launch angle)
B throw (HBK)

I apologize for the non explanations, been a long day. If you have any specific questions or suggestions, please post them.

kupo15 · Mar 19, 2009

For falcon, why a higher base for the side throws? If anything, I would lower the scaling kb of the forward throw.

Same question for ganon's side throws.

Maybe we should consider ikes uthrow to have less scaling and slightly less base. What about lower base for dthrow?

I think fox's dthrow should be changed. I think the launch angel should be a spike so you can tech it like melee. As is, the kb is too high which allows fox to run across the stage into a usmash. So I suggest lower base of the dthrow or just change the launch angle.
Pits

Sonic's dthrow is techable and it sends you low to the ground. I don't see a need to touch this.

Revven · Mar 19, 2009

What about Wario's Dthrow? It's a CG on both Bowser and Ganondorf until almost 50% if buffered correctly. I don't THINK it's possible to fix this without ruining his options that he has from it but, any idea on what to do? It also seems to affect Fox until 41% as well (doesn't surprise me, he's an FF'er after all).

The Cape · Mar 19, 2009

Wario D throw is one to look at.

Sonic D throw you can tech during the throw

Now that I think about it, a lower scaling on Ike D throw would also be sweet.

kupo15 · Mar 19, 2009

Can you really tech during the throw? never happened to me

Dark Sonic · Mar 20, 2009

^^Yep, which is why it needs to be fixed.

Ulevo · Mar 20, 2009

Bowser:
U and D throw (LBK)
F and B throw (HBK)
Koopa Klaw (fixed KB)

Charizard:
U throw (LBK)
D throw (HBK)
B throw (HBK)

Ganondorf:
Murder Choke (No tech)

Jigglypuff:
D and U throws (LBK)
F and B throws (HBK)

Link:
D throw (LBK, LSK?)
U throw (LBK)
F and B throws (HBK)

Lucas:
D throw (LSK)
F, B, and U throw (HBK)

Mario:
B throw (HBK)
U throw (LBK, HSK)

Ness:
U throw (LBK)

Pikacku:
D throw (HBK)

Samus:
D throw (LBK)
U throw (LBK)
F and B throw (HBK)

Sonic:
D throw, make untechable

Squirtle:
U throw (LSK)

Yoshi:
U throw (LBK)
F and B throw (HBK)
Egg poop (stay in egg longer)

These are the suggested changes I agree with right now. The majority of the list suggests changes to a wide variety of already acceptable characters who do not need modifications at the moment, and many will likely be in fact largely unnecessary. Some exceptions to the ones I am agreeing with are Ganondorfs Murder Choke (Fix), Pikachus Dthrow (preventing powerful CG), and Squirtles Uthrow (to compensate for the changes to Utilt).

The Cape · Mar 20, 2009

I just want all throws and throw type moves to be useful :-p

I really like the idea of making Wolf D throw and Bowser Koopa Klaw fixed knockback.

Koopa Klaw link into fair or grabs depending on DI. (Think KB at 0)

And Wolf's we can make it so it knocks down and goes about as far as his F smash will tip.
So you can tech roll chase, or try to catch a missed tech with F smash.

Ulevo · Mar 20, 2009

Can you currently tech Wolfs Dthrow right when he executes it? I am almost positive you can, I'd just like clarifications though.

The Bowser idea would be something to consider. It would help Bowser with his current problem of reliable damage out put.

The Cape · Mar 20, 2009

Koopa Klaw does 18%. An 18% setup for a kill move or other slight combo move would be sweet.

Also, for Wolf's D throw, it knocks down at a certain amount of KB. I would like to find where that KB starts and make the move always go at that distance.

The move scales WAY too high.

Ulevo · Mar 20, 2009

The Cape said:
Koopa Klaw does 18%. An 18% setup for a kill move or other slight combo move would be sweet.

Also, for Wolf's D throw, it knocks down at a certain amount of KB. I would like to find where that KB starts and make the move always go at that distance.

The move scales WAY too high.

You need to consider the other options that move provides however. Assuming an opponent doesn't tech, they're off stage and in perfect position for a Dair or edge guard.

In either case, this can be discussed in the Wolf thread.

CT Chia · Mar 20, 2009

please do not consider doing all these changes right now. we have to take things step by step. thats why in each update for brawl+, we just change a small handfull of things. iv we were to do this many changes, or even half of them, it could really ruin the balance of the game we have now. i also really don't agree with a lot of them. ive found most throws to work well as they are. obviously some may need some tweaking, but some of your opinions are blasphemy.

lower knockback for DDD's uthrow? whhhhhyyyyy???? it like u want him to be a cheap chaingrabbing character again. his uthrow is perfect now. it cg's somtimes at lowerish percents. it combos awesome, however a lot of this starts to break when the opponent is at high percent and when they use good DI.

increasing falcons upB knockback.... uhg. the way it works now is that if a falcon hits you upwards above him, he has 2 options. if your opponent does not DI, DI's away or DIs towards falcon (not 100% about towards) he can strong knee them. if u DI up high, he wont be able to land the knee but an upB instead. it already has decent knockback for the range it would be used at and making it even higher is taking an already awesome character that does not need tweaking, and make him even better. no.

those r only a couple that stood out to me. i dont have much time to post, i gotta go to work. but please keep it easy. stuff like this is more suited for individual character threads so we can examine all the options, see how it will change gameplay, etc.

kupo15 · Mar 20, 2009

^^Your DDD still cgs with the dthrow? On who?? I agree with cape that everyone should have better throws. A lot of throws send too far and are quite useless.

The Cape · Jun 24, 2009

Gonna revamp this thread when I get a chance, but I also have a few throws to try out:

Pika
Dthrow (38 to 58 growth)
07053C26 00000050
053C3A00 00000050

Wario
Dthrow (70 base from 60, 115 angle from 130)
15033C12 00000082
03461200 00000073

Bowser:
F and B throws (70 growth from 50; 25 angle from 45; 12 damage from 10)
0B0A3C32 0000002D
0C3C4600 00000019

ZodiakLucien · Jun 25, 2009

I agree with most of these, especially wolfs. Except for wolfs dthrow, its fine as it is. Does snakes fthrow and bthrow really need LBK? With snake you use throws to get them off stage to edgeguard. Its not like they are too good as they are.

goodoldganon · Jun 25, 2009

Cape hates Snake

Blank Mauser · Jun 25, 2009

Maybe he wants Snake to be able to throw people into mines.

Like long range y'know?

Actually I don't know.

JCaesar · Jun 25, 2009

Ok, I know KBG and BKB, but wtf are all these other acronyms? LBK (low BKB?), HBK (high BKB?), LSK/HSK (no clue)

Revven · Jun 25, 2009

It's an old list before we started calling SK (scaling knockback) by the term the game uses KBG (knockback growth).

kupo15 · Jun 25, 2009

Falcon should have less kb on both up and down. Everyone else seems fine. The majority should have less kb for uthrow.

goodoldganon · Jun 25, 2009

kupo15 said:
Falcon should have less kb on both up and down. Everyone else seems fine. The majority should have less kb for uthrow.

I think down needs less growth not base knockback.

Agreed on up though

The Cape · Jun 25, 2009

Falcon D throw really only needs an angle change so he can follow up off it better I think, maybe Growth too.

And did I really say lower base for Snake's F and B throws? If anything I think I meant more >.>

Overall throws revamp

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