Out of shield pivot grabs

[Supermodel From Paris]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8025429

ZSS just got wrecked by this. While I'm not a huge fan of "sky is falling" type scenarios this hurts a huge part of her shield pressure game and makes a lot of her traditional approaches suck.

Never falling uair a target from behind again while they are moving.

Back air is no longer safe on block. (Shield true pivot grab)

I'm sure there are more of these, but yeah. Not good at all. Especially since we can't use it.

 

[Zero]

Instead of a huge writeup, this IRC converse should why our game is completely unaffected by this discovery.

ZeroSuitSamus: i really think sfp was overdramatising
ZeroSuitSamus: it can only be done with a dash
ZeroSuitSamus: not a walk
sfp: i didn't say you could walk it
ZeroSuitSamus: it'll benefit characters with really small dash animations
ZeroSuitSamus: marth
sfp: you can foxtrot it
ZeroSuitSamus: ie. characters that can foxtrot easy
sfp: meaning you can do it immediately
sfp: ...
ZeroSuitSamus: you still have to wait for the end of the dash animation
sfp: you can interrupt a foxtrot with a shield...
ZeroSuitSamus: no
ZeroSuitSamus: you can't
ZeroSuitSamus: you can interrupt a DASH with a shield
sfp: are you sure??
Kain17 left the room (quit: Ping timeout).
ZeroSuitSamus: you cannot interrupt the foxtrot animation with a shield
Linkshot: Yes.
snakeee: cant you do it at any point of running
Linkshot: The foxtrot isn't running.
ZeroSuitSamus: foxtrotting is just using the dash animation as a form of running
ZeroSuitSamus: no
Linkshot: It's when you stop running.
snakeee: but
ZeroSuitSamus: foxtrot is just the initial dash
snakeee: you can just shield at any point
ZeroSuitSamus: after the dash
snakeee: when youre running
ZeroSuitSamus: you begin running
ZeroSuitSamus: yes
ZeroSuitSamus: while running
ZeroSuitSamus: but you have to pass the dash animation
ZeroSuitSamus: some characters have really big foxtrot animations
snakeee: you do?
ZeroSuitSamus: like ZSS
ZeroSuitSamus: yes
ZeroSuitSamus: the ones who have longer dash animations
snakeee: wait so it cant be done during the trot?
ZeroSuitSamus: are the ones who are harder to foxtrot with
ZeroSuitSamus: no
ZeroSuitSamus: it cannot
ZeroSuitSamus: only after
snakeee: thats weird
snakeee: oh wait yeah i get it
snakeee: im tired you have to excuse me
ZeroSuitSamus: no worries
ZeroSuitSamus: it cannot be done from a still position
ZeroSuitSamus: has to be done while running
ZeroSuitSamus: or at the very end of a dash
ZeroSuitSamus: during a dash just makes it a normal pivot grab
sfp: then we're in business except against falco
ZeroSuitSamus: which everyone can, and could already do
sfp: ****
ZeroSuitSamus: no doubt this will help olimar, d3
ZeroSuitSamus: probably marth
ZeroSuitSamus: but it does not hurt us that badly
ZeroSuitSamus: if at all
Summoner [l@114.72.221.32] entered the room.
ZeroSuitSamus: and since the shield is only out for a super small period of time
ZeroSuitSamus: it will not affect our approaches
ZeroSuitSamus: and if you see them run, that's a reset
snakeee: o ok
ZeroSuitSamus: don't do anything and you're pretty much safe
ZeroSuitSamus: unless i'm proven wrong by american tournament results and players
ZeroSuitSamus: i feel that this will not hurt us
ZeroSuitSamus: at all
ZeroSuitSamus: just gonna test snake's foxtrot
sfp: I HOPE YOU'RE RIGHT ZERO
ZeroSuitSamus: because if it's small
sfp: FOR THE GOOD FO THE FUTURE
ZeroSuitSamus: it can affect our ability to pressure him with crossups
ZeroSuitSamus: as far as i know it's fairly large though
ZeroSuitSamus: nope
ZeroSuitSamus: snake can't shield very quick
snakeee: and we're forgetting human error here
ZeroSuitSamus: with buffering, it can be negated at the top level
snakeee: i mean its always best to assume ppl will do the right thing i guess
ZeroSuitSamus: but yes
ZeroSuitSamus: there's two sides
ZeroSuitSamus: yea
snakeee: but im sure ppl will miss the opportunity plenty of times
sfp: a thing you should remember is
ZeroSuitSamus: i'm not convinced that this is gamebreaking

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Well I wouldn't call it over-dramatizing. It was just a misunderstanding in exactly how this technique works. Given that you can't cancel a foxtrot with this it just isn't as effective as I thought. Had you been able to do that this would have been seriously very bad.

 

[Zero]

Oh, without a doubt. But thank Sakurai for allowing the best character to still be viable, despite having a ******** grab.

ALL PRAISE SAKURAI.

and gunpei yokei for inventing our sacred main.

 

[ThreeSided]

Obviously because it involves grab it becomes a nerf for her in the sense that everyone else can do it better than she can, but let's not let that stop us from trying to learn to abuse this.

Because of her crappy grab start up, we can't exactly use this like everyone else would, eg grabbing an opponent who moved past you on block with a fast low-lag attack, grabbing MK out of nado (as if we weren't already screwed over by that move enough more than others), and I can't think of anything right now. But we can still use this to grab the laggier moves that would pass through os on hit of our shield, and we have a grab range advantage that would be perfect for moves which would keep on going, like wizards foot, falcon kick, rollout, egg roll, MK's screw attack, mortar slide, many dash attacks, etc.

HOnestly, grabbing snake out of his mortar slide on PS sounds really cool to me.

 

[PepsiMista]

Its frustrating when something like this cant help us.

We SHOULD´ve had a grab like marth....i think.
or DDD.

 

[Zero]

If she actually did have a grapple grab, she would be broken, no doubt.

 

[Kain17]

If she actually did have a grapple grab, she would be broken, no doubt.

No, I think if the had 2 frame ending lag for her grab, she'd be more broken than that.

 

[sasook]

ALL PRAISE SAKURAI.

I dun agree.


As for the topic, I'm gonna hold off on saying anything til something, if anything, develops further.

 

[noradseven]

wait u guys mean u did'nt know you could buffer pivot on sheild stun, WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN. The olimar's here abuse this ****, or at least adam did.