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Our Female Demographic

Jynx

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
69
Location
Saskatoon, SK
Before I begin, I would like to apologize for spelling errors and such. This was typed on my iPod.

I for one would like to see an increase in all genders coming to our events. I recently read this:

http://meleeiton.me/sexism-in-smash-quotes-from-the-community/

It was both interesting and shocking. We have had players, **** and sexually assault other players. Please tell me how that's even a little okay. Our size in terms of community isn't even giant to begin with. Why do we insist on trying to make it smaller by creating an environment not pertaining to our female audience, and even some male audiences.

Last time I checked, females make up between 42% - 46% of ALL gamers. Why is the ratio in SSB a fraction of that? I have a couple female friends trying to get into SSB but it's impossible for them because of:

- The way we talk
- The way we treat them

The documentary portrays us as these accepting, amazing people. I believe this is true, to an extent. I also believe putting the extra work in to make this community as accepting as possible is totally worth it. It does nothing but good for us. It breeds new Smashers, enlarges and strengthens our community, and makes us better people.

If we trash talk, that's fine. But why is it when a female steps up, we suddenly make the trash talk about their gender. Why can't we trash talk everyone the same without using sexist slurs or terrible terminology (go to the Boss thread for that discussion).

I said it before, and I'll say it again, MilkTea in the doc put it best when she said we weren't helping female players get into the community by using terms like ****. She's right. And I hear you in the back, scoffing to yourself saying, "Grow up." But if you say that, are they really in the position to be told to "grow up" by someone who is so insensitive, unwilling to change, and unsympathetic that they'll actually RISK losing a potentially valuable player to the community and game they "claim" to love so much? I don't think so.

Our community is structured around the closeness of our peers, and our love for the game. Yet we tell this VERY large select group of people to, "Get over it." And to, "Stop letting it bother you." When in fact it's us that should grow up. Accommodating to new players is our jobs as the existing community, and as it stands, we failed. From what I've seen, we are STILL not accepting, or caring to female newcomers. And look at M2K, he was even outright disliked by some until he got good! Wife put this well in saying he didn't get respect by playing, he was respected because he as good at the game. That's all fine and dandy, but how our female gamers are going to rise to the top to gain respect if they're too intimidated by our male audience to even try in the first place.

My sister is a female Smasher. She will never get respect, even though I see her trash countless players with Bowser in SSBM. She will not be respected, and our community will find any excuse not to give her that respect. It's terrible, and I see it for even some male cases as well.

Think of this, wouldn't it be amazing to have our numbers nearly double just by being a little more accepting, and a little more respectful. Our community, praised above the 12-year old ridden lobbies of CoD and BF because we know how to treat our players. Viewed amongst all the other games as a sophisticated, organized, and professional community. We strive for perfection in the game we love so much, but half of that game is the community that plays it and it's high time we strived for perfection in that too. We are improving each and everyday, and I am beyond proud to call myself a Smasher. Our female audience is just as human as we are. It's time we recognize what they can bring, and just imagine how proud we will be when we have a female Smash competing in top 8 for the first time. Or consistently commentate games because we finally allowed them to. Us as males are not superior gamers. There are many more of us and we just haven't given the opprotunity to our opposing gender to step up to the plate and challenge others.

And even for some of us, we fear for our masculinity, scared of "being beat by a girl" yet I still hear the audacious calls of, "grow up" even though it is our shortcomings to realize we are not being humble. By losing our masculinity we set ourselves up for failure, telling ourselves that we lost just because the other person is of a different gender. We systematically insulted both genders at once by saying we shouldn't have lost to a girl.

The stereotype of female players not being good needs to vanish permanently, because we are not only telling them they shouldn't be playing, but they tell themselves that. And once they believe it, they'll tell others and trust me, that spreads like wildfire. Articles upon articles of female gamers wanting to get into the video game scene but are constantly being insulted, yelled at, and put down. Those articles are ignored and even outright laughed at by us because we think they're wrong and dumb, even though we have no place to judge. We are so willing to help new players, so why does it matter if they're male or not. If all you saw was the username, you would treat them the same regardless, so why does that have to change if they're a girl?

This isn't generalizing our male populous of course. But I implore you to think about it, and spread a positive message to everyone about the Smash community. Reflect on what our community represents not only through your words, but through your actions. Actively seek out everyone, especially female players and get them to join. And when he or she goes out and tears up the top players with an amazing Falco or an incredible Sheik, you can proudly say, "They were able to do that because of me." And if a female accuses you of hitting on her, or just trying to get in her pants (and you're not), she doesn't belong here. It's time everyone was able to unite under the jaw-dropping game, that is Super Smash Brothers and it's up to us to make the change. And there is no reason we can't.
 

9bit

BRoomer
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Messages
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Last time I checked, females make up between 42% - 46% of ALL gamers.
Just want to quickly say that this statistic, if it's legit, includes games that aren't games. Like, ****ty phone games. Those don't count / apply to something hardcore competitive like Smash.

And also, in regards to your statements on the Smash community is made up of people. Some people are assholes. They're everywhere, in all facets of life. Yes as a community we should be more welcoming, but the Smash community is one of the most progressive gaming communities around.

Once I realized how messed up some of the language we use is, I started correcting myself and am trying to use better words in stream chats and in life in general (thx Smash).

But we're still mostly made of up of adolescent males. Good luck corralling millions of years of evolutionary biology to get everyone to act all nice and professional all the time :/ Additionally, video games have long been a boys club. So gamers developed a cadence that is now being challenged. It's gonna take some time.
 
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Thane of Blue Flames

Fire is catching.
Joined
Nov 23, 2013
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3,135
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The other side of Sanity
But we're still mostly made of up of adolescent males. Good luck corralling millions of years of evolutionary biology to get everyone to act all nice and professional all the time :/ Additionally, video games have long been a boys club. So gamers developed a cadence that is now being challenged. It's gonna take some time.
I agree with this. I also feel like it's something worth working towards.
 

9bit

BRoomer
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Messages
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Yeah for sure. It's coming along. We're getting better. But there are always going to be people who are douchebags. The best we can do is try to minimize their impact / presence in the community as a whole.
 

Jynx

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
69
Location
Saskatoon, SK
Just want to quickly say that this statistic, if it's legit, includes games that aren't games. Like, ****ty phone games. Those don't count / apply to something hardcore competitive like Smash.

And also, in regards to your statements on the Smash community is made up of people. Some people are *******s. They're everywhere, in all facets of life. Yes as a community we should be more welcoming, but the Smash community is one of the most progressive gaming communities around.

Once I realized how messed up some of the language we use is, I started correcting myself and am trying to use better words in stream chats and in life in general (thx Smash).

But we're still mostly made of up of adolescent males. Good luck corralling millions of years of evolutionary biology to get everyone to act all nice and professional all the time :/ Additionally, video games have long been a boys club. So gamers developed a cadence that is now being challenged. It's gonna take some time.
It was a study on the hardcore market, I should clarify. I'll get my sources and post them.

Anyways, we are very progressive. Which is why we need to set the bar and be the shining example expected of us. We now have in image to maintain, and it's our job to make sure that our actions and words reflect positively of the community.

And I know that we are not situated quite like that, because the majority of us are male gamers. But that's something we should be working on, like now. We have no reason not to change. No Johns, that goes for our community as well.
 

Mono.

Stopmotion Love.
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
439
Imagine a world whereas we don't treat women special in any way, shape, or form with smash. No sexism, no fedoraism, no white knights, none of that. They're just smashers and that's it. That's how I look at girls who play smash until they give me a reason to think otherwise.
 

Jynx

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
69
Location
Saskatoon, SK
Imagine a world whereas we don't treat women special in any way, shape, or form with smash. No sexism, no fedoraism, no white knights, none of that. They're just smashers and that's it. That's how I look at girls who play smash until they give me a reason to think otherwise.
And this is what we need to strive for. Teach our younger generation of players on how to act, while trying to make a change in our older players in setting a good example.
 

9bit

BRoomer
BRoomer
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Messages
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I think there's a range of players that are the problem. The youngest (< 14 or so) players are fine, they grew up in a world where you treat people pretty damn equally. And the older (> 25 or so) players are wise enough to understand: it's around the age you start to wise up and realize you've been a douchebag for the past decade.

I don't know what I'm saying. does it even make sense

 
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Vashimus

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
3,308
Location
Newark, NJ
The only time you should take women seriously and treat them like you would any man is when you're directly competing with them. Like tournaments or in the workplace.

Outside of that, I will not treat women like I would a man because they're not men. That's not being sexist or white-knighty, that's just how it is.
 

Jynx

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
69
Location
Saskatoon, SK
The only time you should take women seriously and treat them like you would any man is when you're directly competing with them. Like tournaments or in the workplace.

Outside of that, I will not treat women like I would a man because they're not men. That's not being sexist or white-knighty, that's just how it is.
It's true that we are not like women. But we in fact are equal. Our ingrained rights given to us at birth are not advantageous to a specific gender. That is also how it is.

And we don't even take women seriously when in a competitive environment, and the bulk of my post was talking about how we constantly degrade them, especially if they're good which is weird. On the other side of the spectrum, we treat them like Princesses if they play video games which also isn't good.
 

Comeback Kid

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 25, 2009
Messages
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Parts Unknown
I don't think it's fair to portray **** as something happening and whatsoever deemed
even a little ok
in the smash community Jynx, like maybe you know of something your not saying but apparently one anonymous quote in link doesn't say much and proves little.

It sounds like from that quote a couple, not a random attacker, disagree about whether **** occurred or not, which believe it or not happens all the time in relationships where people get drunk.

Not enough data to make an informed judgment about either party.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
i play games like smash to escape my professional life because i work like 100 hours a week.

that article has a lot of issues with how it is written. it has some good points too but you shouldn't get mindlessly sucked into everything you read. i wrote the 3 authors of that article a dissenting email and so far i haven't gotten any response.
 

Ace55

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
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Amsterdam
It was a study on the hardcore market, I should clarify. I'll get my sources and post them.
I REALLY want to see that source because it seems like bull. Almost half of hardcore gamers are woman? Then where have they been hiding?

Not sure why the girl who claims to have been ***** seemingly hasn't involved the police but if true that's a pretty horrible story.
 
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Terotrous

Smash Champion
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Ontario
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Well, like I said in that other thread, I think step 1 is to start cleaning up stream chat. No more "6 / 10 would bang" whenever a female smasher shows up. A lot of people don't want to play on stream just because they don't want to be subject to that kind of nonsense. Moderators, please just ban these people. There aren't that many of them and it will help change the tone.

The general perception that women are inferior players will take longer to change, and really only the women themselves can change people's minds by consistently showing up and doing well. Hopefully if we can get some of the most offensive sexism out of the scene they'll be more inclined to stick with the community and start putting in results.
 

Mansta

( ̄^ ̄)ゞ
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Well, like I said in that other thread, I think step 1 is to start cleaning up stream chat. No more "6 / 10 would bang" whenever a female smasher shows up. A lot of people don't want to play on stream just because they don't want to be subject to that kind of nonsense. Moderators, please just ban these people. There aren't that many of them and it will help change the tone.
Implying every popular stream isn't like that.

It's a big problem with the gaming community as a whole, rather than just the Smash community.
 
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MechWarriorNY

Smash Master
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All the crap being spouted about this is not going to change anything.
At some point, it's gonna be you get with the program, or you get out.
Nothing less than that is gonna fix this problem.

Also, just how many people had this go completely over their heads?

^Don't answer that, it's rhetorical.
 
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Jynx

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
69
Location
Saskatoon, SK
Implying every popular stream isn't like that.

It's a big problem with the gaming community as a whole, rather than just the Smash community.
Sure, but doesn't mean we have to follow suite. We should be the progressive ones, being role models for other potential game streams and players.
 

Banjodorf

Dynamic Duo
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I've never looked at anyone differently in the Smash community, and have infact been kicked to the curb by a few female smashers in live tourneys in the past.

It saddens me others don't do the same. People will always be stupid, though.

We're all one big Smash family, damn it.
 

Giygacoal

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
1,651
Well it's a shame some people can be awful. In my local tournament scene, there is a woman that only gets respect tho. :)

On the subject of sexism in general... yeah that crap needs to stop ASAP.
 

MLGF

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
1,922
I dunno why people generalize our entire community.

Dare I say it, Leffen said it best.

We are not a big family, we're classmates who are learning the same things. I don't have to automatically like and/or associate with my classmates.

...That's not to say I dislike anyone's company, on the contrary everyone I've met has been really cool, has but by god expecting to house strangers based on a hobby sounds a little bat**** insane.

Of course there's gonna be assholes, but theres a ton of generalizing within our community and within the FGC as a whole.
 
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MechWarriorNY

Smash Master
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The big thing here is this:
Those who are calling for this aren't asking.
This is non-negotiable.
Complain if you want; you're only outing yourself as part of the problem, thanks!
 

MLGF

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Female smashers can earn respect the same way male ones do: by winning tournaments. Until then, people are just as justified in not taking female smashers seriously as they are blind smashers, because both groups currently boast the same number of Apex wins.
But when you're male, it takes a lot less to be considered good.
I'm not one to immediately consider someone good, and will generally care little for who they are until they prove their skill, but saying to win a national to prove their worth is insane.
Because all it takes to for people to consider a male good, at least on the local perspective, are a few good wins under their belt and some well executed techs in matches.
 
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Jynx

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
69
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Saskatoon, SK
Oh, and to some skeptics. Take it with a grain of salt, but there are definitely more than we think.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/08/tech/gaming-gadgets/female-gamers/
http://jezebel.com/confirmed-many-many-female-gamers-exist-50-of-all-g-512923519
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jun/11/report-nearly-half-gamers-are-women/?page=all
http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/po...verage-player-37-42-percent-of-gamers-female/
http://msmagazine.com/blog/2013/06/13/actually-about-half-of-gamers-are-women/
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/for...Women-Make-Up-Nearly-Half-of-Gamer-Population
http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/201...o-where-are-the-female-video-game-characters/
http://www.themarysue.com/women-gamers-spend-equal-on-games/
http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp

All I searched was literally, "How many females are gamers." and ~50% was the most common result by far. Everyone just breeds the stereotypes which makes it seem like there are less. Results exploded onto my front page, talking about how the female demographic is a lot large than we initially thought.

Even The Escapist confirmed this. If you don't believe me, search an unbiased search like, "What is the percentage of female gamers." and you'll get results like these. All those are the top results, and the only ones that countered these were blogs and a couple VERY biased posts.
 
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Giygacoal

Smash Lord
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Apr 30, 2011
Messages
1,651
It's a love it or hate it game, but League of Legends did a good job getting females to play "more technical" video games.
 

Mischief

Smash Cadet
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Jan 13, 2014
Messages
72
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Cali
It doesn't really matter how many women play games as much as it matters how many women play smash, at least as far as our community ought to be concerned. The honest answer is not many. Additionally, just because a girl plays a game does not mean she is playing competitively. Most men who buy games don't play competitively either and don't really even care to. We, as competitive gamers, are a very small subset of the "gaming" community, smashers make even a smaller subset of that. Also, all of these articles are derived from one study, so we might as well just reference said study. Having glanced over it, it doesn't say that these women play "hardcore" games. Who knows, the data might also include tiny wings.

Either way, regardless how many play, I don't think this is a complex thing to figure out. Treat people how you would want to be treated. Haters gonna hate, douches will be douches, and there is very little we can do about that other than try to lead by example. I think policing language or trying to steer the community into a "girl friendly" direction isn't really a solution. All it will do is create paranoia in the community and encourage this stupid hyper sensitivity that we are increasingly seeing everywhere. We shouldn't try to make a community where no one ever gets offended, or bothered, or ever has their feelings hurt. In a competitive environment this seems like utter nonsense that will turn the beautiful lively thing that is the smash community into some kind of sterile judgement environment. All we can do, as good people who seem to care about this stuff, is be the best WE can be and let the chips fall where they may. If women want to join the community they will and they will flock to the groups of people who behave in a sensible good hearted way. We can't really control much else beyond this.

Also, I think we need to get out of this mentality of judging the quality of a community somehow by its diversity. There can be good communities made up of one race / gender and bad communities filled with a variety of races and genders. Diversity has little to do with quality. We should strive for quality and let diversity come rather than striving for diversity and then expect quality.
 
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SixSaw

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 28, 2013
Messages
321
Location
Chicago, IL
Also, I think we need to get out of this mentality of judging the quality of a community somehow by its diversity. There can be good communities made up of one race / gender and bad communities filled with a variety of races and genders. Diversity has little to do with quality. We should strive for quality and let diversity come rather than striving for diversity and then expect quality.
Amen.
 

Jynx

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
69
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Saskatoon, SK
We shouldn't try to make a community where no one ever gets offended, or bothered, or ever has their feelings hurt.
That's hardly my point. And while I agree with your post, we need to realize that we need to be accepting of everyone. I'm not talking about making our game G-rated for the public. I'm talking about treated both genders equally on the playing field, which does not happen and rarely happens from what I see. We either have guys treating them like ****, or guys doing the exact opposite and treating then like Princesses. Neither of those things are good. And it's even worse when women who play Smash, get berated by other women, like what is that.

I love our community. It's one of the best. Which is why I would prefer for us to hold the "ideal" image of what a proper game community should look like. People say, "There's nothing more you can do then just let it happen." Well, no. There's plenty we can do, and that's what I'm saying. Players WITH that mentality are the very reason why we get in situations like Boss and whatnot. We can talk about how to make a better environment.

I love trash talking, and like I said in my original post, why do we turn the insults into gender-specific ones when facing against a different gender? That makes no sense. I'm down for trash talking, and ribbing another player. But if you're going to do it, don't change it for a gender. That is straight up sexism to start insulting a player's ability to play based off their gender. You shouldn't insult males either because of their gender. And that obviously happens a lot less, but it happens still. The earlier we get rid of this and evolve, the sooner things will get cleaned up. It becomes a habituated habit then we pass it on to newer players and that doesn't help.

As for the % of female players. Like I said, take it with a grain of salt. A gamer is a self-given title, really. We have our own categories, and maybe there's a smaller percentile of girls who fit into the competitive scene. Doesn't mean can't try to get more.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
There are only 42% female gamers when you include the mobile market, without that it's like <10%. If you add the fact that most smash meetups are competitive tournys, then you're reducing that population a ton again. I was amazed when I actually saw a single girl at the first tourny I went to. All the nerd bo in small rooms is probably a huge factor too lol.
 

MechWarriorNY

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Female smashers can earn respect the same way male ones do: by winning tournaments. Until then, people are just as justified in not taking female smashers seriously as they are blind smashers, because both groups currently boast the same number of Apex wins.
...Way to sum up years of people pointing out why a wholesale mentality shift for a entire game's fanbase needs to happen in just 2 sentences.
 

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

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Female smashers can earn respect the same way male ones do: by winning tournaments. Until then, people are equally justified in not taking female smashers seriously as they are blind smashers, because both groups currently boast the same number of Apex wins.
oh boy this post
First of all, you're doing something endemic of all discriminatory people, you're making broad generalizations and then applying them to individual people, categorically disregarding people because of a misguided generalization.
Second, this mentality is perpetuating a vicious cycle. Females haven't won apex because females make up less than 10% of Apex entries. Females make up less than ten percent of those entries because of the hostility of the scene. And, unfortunately, the scene is hostile to them because of silly merit-based treatment system that feeds off of itself
Which brings me to my final point. Why do we need to disrespect people because they're not as good at smash as some of us are? Why can't we just give people respect because they're human just like we are? I mean if someone is not as good at smash as you are you don't have to take their advice on the game, but you don't have to make them feel uncomfortable with who they are and harass them for factors completely unrelated to smash.
 

Broasty

Smash Journeyman
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Mar 1, 2014
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252
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Orlando, Florida
Personally I believe we should treat everyone equally...however a conudrum is encountered when one tries to do so. When I play with friends/fellow smashers, we love to use terms like "*****", "smashed", or "don't *****". If I were to play a fellow smasher, supposing the gender was arbitary, I would talk the exact same way every time...but I'm sure many of you are aware that this simply isn't considered respectful. In order to be respectful of female players, we (male players) must evidably treat them differently. From what I can see, there are 2 routes the community can go, assuming everyone wants to be proactive:

1. Everyone treats everyone equal. The compromise is that the female demographic will have to accept terms like "****" and so forth as undiscrimatory.

2. The female demographic gets special treatment. All players in community stop their urges to use the previously mentioned terms. This will most likely come with a reprocussion however, as the community will know the reason for doing so was because of the movement to make female players feel more comfortable...which in turn neglects feelings of equality. The reason I believe the causation would be remembered is because the mentioned terms are constantly used by many gaming communities at the present moment. As such, a great effort would be required and as such, people tend to want to know why they're asked to make great efforts.

I personally believe in equality, but honestly I really don't know what's the best way to go about this problem considering both routes have their downsides.
 
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Team Plasma N

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Although I'm a guy, I never really understood why most guy gamers typically treat female gamers differently. I've played with girl gamers before and I didn't have a problem with it, I just love to compete and play the game I love. But seriously, no one likes being treated in a negative manner, so why is it that the male community is treating female players with a lot more disrespect than a male one? This is the reason why men have a bad name -_-.
 

Jarbinks9/11

Banned via Warnings
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Feb 10, 2014
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71
Makes sense that project mers would be bothered by this entire situation more than melee players
 

MLGF

Smash Lord
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Jun 19, 2013
Messages
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Actually... why are we more concerned about it then the Melee players?

I'm confused on that note. Melee is the one getting all the attention, why do we need this?
 

Chevy

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Messages
736
Why do people still use the term "****" anyway? It's so saturated at this point that it doesn't have any meaning for the community, but still has shock value for those outside, portraying us as the 14 year old CoD player demographic. At this point you're effectively just saying, "he got that guy". It just seems so incredibly immature and uncreative. Expanding your used vocabulary will make you better commentators and more people interesting to talk to anyway.
 
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