OU Lead Evaluation

[Pink Reaper]

LOL shows how good SWF is >_>

also one of the best players on SMOGON!

Also, Njz, if you really think rocks is the most important move in the game youre wrong. It's definitely the most centralizing move in the game but at the end of the day its not nearly as important as the community makes it out to be.

Suicide leads are really really bad.

 

[ss118]

A decent ending to this argument, I guess.

And no I'm not one of the best players on smogon. LOL

Bro, I proved why Adamant is better than Jolly, you addressed the point without reading on.

I always read the post before addressing it: at no point did you address what the bulk is more useful for than the speed.

Also my spread is the move set I said along with -snip-. I rarely lose to Azelf leads, Fire Blast doesn't KO, so no need for OccaBerry. So they have the option of Blasting again, which can miss after I've gotten off my Rocks, and I'll just explode if they miss, or they'll die to Explosion after they get their Rocks off. Since they run sash I can just clean up with a scarfer or Scizor.

I don't like relying on my opponent missing: I prefer to rely on my pokemon hitting. And the Occa Berry is more useful for pokemon after the starter, such as Infernape, Heatran, and Salamence who try to KO me after I knock out the azelf/ aerodactyl starter, which used it's time to uselessly set up SR(which no one on my team is weak to). And I'd rather be able to stay in and deal damage to the next pokemon rather than letting it die, then my switch-in takes 12.5% and I reveal what kind of set I'm running.

The whole difference about you beating other leads with your nature and speed instead of my LumBerry doesn't make sense. Lead Roserade will out run you and so will Scarfloom (which is what Breloom leads run obviously). So you still get put to sleep as I take them out lol.

What I said was that nothing about your set other than the item made it possible for you to take out those two: and mine can do the same by replacing the occa berry with a lum berry(which I don't atm because sleep isn't as common).

Plus, even if you can take them out with your set you lose the over all power with explosion that takes out Scizor/Magezone/Lucario and other that I don't. Which is why Adamant > Jolly. It all comes down to Explosion.

Lucario you are right: I don't have the bulk necessary to take a CC and EQ it to death. Scizor dies to Explosion if it comes into any other attack, and Magnezone can never outspeed me without a scarf: and then it lacks the power to do anything. In that case I swiftly KO it with EQ.

Sorry if I came off harsh but you got mega defensive right off the bat so I reacted in the same. I wasn't trying to step on toes, but I don't see the viability in your Meta that I see in mine. Though I bet you feel the same about mine compared to yours. Though I'd give my Meta a shot if I were you. I have NEVER regretted using or been disappointed in my Meta.

I'm sorry as well: we both look like *****. I will give your meta a shot: it's very unusual, and though I don't see the practicality in it I love unexpected sets.

Though another thing I don't like about yours is that it doesn't have Rocks. If it could do all the things you say it can AND get off Rocks, then I'd give it a spin. But without rocks I see no point.

I don't rely on SR to check threats: I'd rather just pound my opponent's team into the dust as much as I can. I do use SR, just not on my starter.

So lets both agree to disagree and let bygones by bygones.

fair enough. =)

 

[Pink Reaper]

Sure you are. You used Specs Dugtrio in ubers. You're like, the best player ever.

 

[Wave⁂]

Some ****ing lock this thread.

 

[NJzFinest]

Also, Njz, if you really think rocks is the most important move in the game youre wrong. It's definitely the most centralizing move in the game but at the end of the day its not nearly as important as the community makes it out to be.

Making things OHKO/2HKO, forcing people to think twice about switching (which is half the game), literally making certain pokemon automatically UU tier, can be troublesome to just remove it... idk man. I remember reading something on smogon about banning it lol. This move is too gay and effects partically any sort of team out there.

Suicide leads are really really bad.

They get the job done. Bulkier leads are cute indeed but do not guaratee the SRs.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Making things OHKO/2HKO, forcing people to think twice about switching (which is half the game), literally making certain pokemon automatically UU tier, can be troublesome to just remove it... idk man. I remember reading something on smogon about banning it lol. This move is too gay and effects partically any sort of team out there.

They get the job done. Bulkier leads are cute indeed but do not guaratee the SRs.

The effects are gay(Moltres is UU T_T) but at the end of the day, with how the game is currently played the move itself is actually pretty over hyped. Considering the metagame has shifted to Rocks Lead/Dragon/Dragon/Steel/Steel/Rotom-H(exaggeration) Stealth Rocks has actually become alot less powerful. The game actually runs as a series of checks now, you have ScarfTar to check Latias, Scizor to check Salamence, Magnezone/Heatran/Rotom-H to check Scizor etc etc and at the end of the day only Scizor v Salamence really requires stealth rocks(I use Mamo, that DOESNT require stealth rocks) SR became the biggest move in the game back when dedicated walls still existed, but at this point you're left with only Bulky Waters really many of which can be 2HKO'd anyways if they're not abusing resists.

Im not saying having SR on your team is bad, nor am i saying having it on your LEAD is bad, but literally wasting an entire pokemon just to put up rocks in the hopes that your opponents team is a whole bunch of pokes who didnt take SR into consideration at all is dum.

 

[NJzFinest]

Pokemon that use HP Fire almost always need rocks to kill 100% HP Scizor. You do not want to be giving Scizor extra punches or uturns... Hurray for letting annoying pokemon live!

Skarm doesn't die by Zone's Tbolt if Max HP / SpD without rocks damage. Hurray for letting annoying pokemon live!

Sweepers that can be bulky or troublesome (in general) such as Gyarados, Salamence, and Zapdos can be wayyy less of a pain. Hurray for letting annoying pokemon live!

I think most people have become way to accustomed to having SR around. I mean, we don't see spinners ever used enough (in OU).

About teams being 2xDragon, 2xSteel, those Dragons can benefit alot with the extra damage... and I'm pretty sure one of those = Mence and we know if SR wasn't around, Mence would be stupidly more ******** then what it already is. As for steelies, we know one of those = Scizor, which also benefits from rocks damage, and can get ****ed it by it vs the common HP Fire. Imo, it effects enough pokemon who are commonly seen in teams.

This also can just be my huge hatred for this move. I really really really hate it ALOTTTTT haha. I miss the pre-SR metagame :/

 

[CRASHiC]

Can I hear some evaluations on Jirachi?

 

[Gates]

You can almost always SR the next turn anyways. It needs to be 2HKO'd.

Bullet Punch.

Some ****ing lock this thread.

Yeah, this is just getting stupid.

Can I hear some evaluations on Jirachi?

He's ok.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Pokemon that use HP Fire almost always need rocks to kill 100% HP Scizor. You do not want to be giving Scizor extra punches or uturns... Hurray for letting annoying pokemon live!

Skarm doesn't die by Zone's Tbolt if Max HP / SpD without rocks damage. Hurray for letting annoying pokemon live!

Sweepers that can be bulky or troublesome (in general) such as Gyarados, Salamence, and Zapdos can be wayyy less of a pain. Hurray for letting annoying pokemon live!

I think most people have become way to accustomed to having SR around. I mean, we don't see spinners ever used enough (in OU).

About teams being 2xDragon, 2xSteel, those Dragons can benefit alot with the extra damage... and I'm pretty sure one of those = Mence and we know if SR wasn't around, Mence would be stupidly more ******** then what it already is. As for steelies, we know one of those = Scizor, which also benefits from rocks damage, and can get ****ed it by it vs the common HP Fire. Imo, it effects enough pokemon who are commonly seen in teams,

The second you mentioned Max SpDef Skarm your argument became invalid. Also if Skarm can be hit by Zone at all it means they dont have Shed Shell so it's not like they're going to survive the NEXT hit.

Also the "Common HP Fire" is seen on all of 3 pokemon, Lead Roserade, Non-Choice Latias and Gengar, all of which can OHKO Scizor with or without rocks.

Also maybe im just biased since i tend to use a bunch of pokes who can just kill any and all of those annoying pokemon in one hit anyways.

 

[ss118]

Wait is that one of those crazy things people call "strategy"?

hmmmmmmmm...........

edit: Max Sp.Defense Skarmory is used to take common bulky waters and turn them to set-up bait without sacrificing the defense necessary to handle certain threats(your mamoswine won't break through a sp. defense skarm or a regular defense one)/

 

[NJzFinest]

Bullet Punch.

Almost

The second you mentioned Max SpDef Skarm your argument became invalid. Also if Skarm can be hit by Zone at all it means they dont have Shed Shell so it's not like they're going to survive the NEXT hit.

It's a smogon set...
Also, do you really want to give a Skarm an extra turn of spikes/whirlwind? lol, it can even semi scout with Roost.

Also the "Common HP Fire" is seen on all of 3 pokemon, Lead Roserade, Non-Choice Latias and Gengar, all of which can OHKO Scizor with or without rocks.

Latias vs something not good against Latias. You smell a switch and figure that you'll at least cripple something with a Draco Meteor. Scizor switches in. You can't kill it with -2 HP Fire (even with Expert Belt) if it's at 100%. HP Fire during a switch = not smart (yay tran), Draco Meteor was definitely a legit choice... but now you got a Scizor right where you want it (this scenario happens wayyyyyy to often). But, if SR is up, you can kill Scizor with the HP Fire and still save your Latias!
Of course purely 1v1, Latias can do fine, but we gotta thinking outside the box

 

[Pink Reaper]

Actually LO Latias using Draco Meteor->HP Fire will always KO Scizor, no rocks required. Nice try though.

Also, im aware Specially Defensive Skarm is a smogon set, but it's a smogon set in the same way that Choice Band Aerodactyl is a set. It exists, but at the end of the day no one gives a ****.

 

[Wave⁂]

Can I hear some evaluations on Jirachi?

If you're lucky, he can beat lots of leads, even Azelf, with Iron Head flinching.

Jirachi excels against other leads because you force them to choose between getting up Stealth Rock, likely getting crippled by a Choice Scarf, and giving Jirachi a free turn and attacking or switching.

He's kind of like lead Salamence / Gyarados, but in a more defensive (and successful) way. Jirachi attempts to get momentum going with Trick and sometimes U-Turn.

 

[NJzFinest]

Actually LO Latias using Draco Meteor->HP Fire will always KO Scizor, no rocks required. Nice try though.

LOL, I wasn't aware of this actually. Latias is broke.

Also, im aware Specially Defensive Skarm is a smogon set, but it's a smogon set in the same way that Choice Band Aerodactyl is a set. It exists, but at the end of the day no one gives a ****.

SpDef Skarm actually sounds usable though haha. It still functions the way most Skarms do, cept you can take phys and def hits. Pretty much what ppl do with Vaporeon and Bliss (giving them 252HP and DEF).

Where as CB Aero = let's take away the best thing Aero is used for completely and make it into something a handful of other pokemon can do better.


Anywho... SR is gheyyyy xD

 

[supermarth64]

Actually the testers determined that CB Aero sucks balls and should be removed from the analysis.

 

[Wave⁂]

I remember the "Drugodactyl" set with White Herb and Curse.

lol, so bad

 

[NJzFinest]

Hey hey, I used that for 5minutes on shoddy.

Don't hate xD

 

[UltiMario]

I remember the "Drugodactyl" set with White Herb and Curse.

lol, so bad

This sounded good for a second.

Then I realized it was Aerodactyl.

 

[ss118]

sad thing is I almost got swept by it the other day. T-T

 

[Rumikun]

smogon often suggests SR on offensive teams as a means to secure a KO that would otherwise be a 2HKO. While true, I think a better remedy is just to secure the OHKO through hitting harder and not investing EVs that cater to a metagame that is not always immediately present. For example, I'm pretty sure we more or less agree that agiligross has no place running defenses at this point.

SR is clearly one of the best moves in the game, but I'm not of the opinion that it belongs on every team like the metagame would suggest. What we should do is actually evaluate whether it is necessary or not before we continue.

 

[Wave⁂]

"Why do you have an Aerodactyl lead?"
"So I can get Stealth Rock up."
"Why do you need to get Stealth Rock up?"
"To turn some 2HKOs into OHKOs."
"Which ones?"
"I dunno, but there's probably something."

 

[CRASHiC]

If you're lucky, he can beat lots of leads, even Azelf, with Iron Head flinching.

Jirachi excels against other leads because you force them to choose between getting up Stealth Rock, likely getting crippled by a Choice Scarf, and giving Jirachi a free turn and attacking or switching.

He's kind of like lead Salamence / Gyarados, but in a more defensive (and successful) way. Jirachi attempts to get momentum going with Trick and sometimes U-Turn.

I'm aware of what it does and how to use it, its my staple lead, but I was hoping to hear from some others how they felt it faired in today's environment.

 

[NJzFinest]

"Which ones?"
"I dunno, but there's probably something."

Lol?

Do you really think 12.5% or 25% doesn't make that much of a difference?

....

 

[Gates]

Stall needs rocks up for phazing purposes. I guess I'm most biased towards rocks because I only really play stall.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I'm aware of what it does and how to use it, its my staple lead, but I was hoping to hear from some others how they felt it faired in today's environment.

It really ****ing hates the now very common Metagross lead but on the whole it's still one of the better leads in the game since it doesnt just set up rocks and die instantly.

 

[Wave⁂]

Lol?

Do you really think 12.5% or 25% doesn't make that much of a difference?

....

lol, way to misinterpret my post

 

[Pink Reaper]

NJzFinest literally seems to assume that every team ever doesnt take SR into consideration when being made.

Also he should have said "Do you really think 50% doesnt make that much of a difference?"

 

[UltiMario]

Lots of teams now are highly hazard resistant, with lots of flying, steel, or levitating Pokemon so that the opponent is pretty much wasting turns setting up stuff. Just getting Stealth Rock out on its own is a risk considering it might not even help you during the length of the battle, where as you could have been using that turn to get momentum going.

 

[NJzFinest]

NJzFinest literally seems to assume that every team ever doesnt take SR into consideration when being made.

NJzFinest literally seems to assume that every team ever does take SR into consideration when being made.

Correction.

And hence it's OPness. When people make teams, they don't just consider how much SR will hurt their pokemon, but also how much it can greatly benefit them. Which is why just about every team has something with SR...

 

[UltiMario]

The only time I have ever regretted not having SR is when my opponent had a Ninjask and it could switch in over and over and continue to pass speed to everything.

I still won, but it was as annoying as ****.

 

[NJzFinest]

Well aren't you a cool guy lol

Notable times I regretted not having SR is when things like Salamence, Gyarados, and Zapdos switch in with 100% and don't need to think twice the next time they do. Then again, I'm pretty annoyed when pretty much anything that isn't resistant comes in lol.

edit:

Pink Reaper, in addition to my reply to when you said "The second you mentioned Max SpDef Skarm your argument became invalid", in the recent "SmogCast" it was mentioned to be used enough by top players to be worrisome lol.

 

[Rumikun]

Stealth Rock gains utility depending on the metagame. When pokemon that deal with residual damage better are played, Stealth Rock loses value. More than ever, the metagame is commanded by 2-3 steel pokemon per team, many of which invest defenses to nullify 2HKO as well. We have also seen a recent trend of Gyarados, Salamence, and Zapdos undervalued as the premier fliers of OU. Teams that rely on switching (bulky offense down through stall or baton pass) have also dwindled in number, making SR relatively worse yet. That much being evident, ignoring SR leads is a perfectly viable play for the time being.

I also feel that Smogon is to blame to some extent, being they have some merit in shaping the metagame through publicity. It is no secret that smogon overplays the mathematical utility that stealth rock provides. Then again, this is not the first time smogon has changed the metagame based on its inherent biases. Smogon has made it quite clear that it and its members have no idea how to fight dragons, first by banning Garchomp, then setting up Salamence to be reviewed for ban while its single best counter (Cresselia) was moved to Underused.

SpD heavy Skarmory might be a clever move to regain some of its lost utility. It would be nice to see the metal bird return to its former glory.

 

[NJzFinest]

Lol, now Smogon has moved onto questioning Latias. Eh, at least Garchomp was understandable.

Anywho, I think it's established that SR is important move and it's silly to argue if it's is or not (just from statistics and pure logic).

So... about leads... I think the normal lead Machamp set is wack and people should run the more offensive one (BP, DP, SE, PB 240 HP, 16 SpD for Azelf). I don't think "anything" beats it.

 

[ss118]

A Life Orb Azelf would beat it.

And I am very close to making one my lead.

Edit: Or at least an Expert Belt one.

 

[Gates]

So... about leads... I think the normal lead Machamp set is wack and people should run the more offensive one (BP, DP, SE, PB 240 HP, 16 SpD for Azelf). I don't think "anything" beats it.

AFAIK, that IS the new standard. The set they have right now on Smogon is ***.

 

[supermarth64]

AFAIK, that IS the new standard. The set they have right now on Smogon is ***.

Yea we're working on it, calm down <_<.

 

[ss118]

How much power needs to be behind an Earthquake to kill standard starting metagross?

 

[Gates]

It's impossible for non-ground types without a boosting item and a +Atk nature. For ground types it's still hard.

STAB EQ
Adamant Max Atk. Rhyperior @ CB (416*1.5=624 Atk) vs. 252 HP/12 Def Metagross @ Occa Berry: 123.6%-145.6%
Adamant Max Atk. Donphan @ CB (372*1.5=558 Atk) vs. 252 HP/12 Def Metagross @ Occa Berry: 110.4%-130.2%
Jolly Max Atk. Mamoswine @ CB (359*1.5=538.5 Atk) vs. 252 HP/12 Def Metagross @ Occa Berry: 107.1%-125.8%
Naughty 244 Atk. Mamoswine @ LO (392 Atk) vs. 252 HP/12 Def Metagross @ Occa Berry: 101.1%-119.2%
Adamant Max Atk. Rhyperior @ LO (416 Atk) vs. 252 HP/12 Def Metagross @ Occa Berry: 107.1%-125.8%

Non-STAB EQ
Adamant Max Atk. Rampardos @ CB (471*1.5=706.5 Atk) vs. 252 HP/12 Def Metagross @ Occa Berry: 93.4%-109.9%
Adamant Max Atk. Slaking @ CB (460*1.5=690 Atk) vs. 252 HP/12 Def Metagross @ Occa Berry: 90.7%-107.1%

Everything else (outside Ubers) falls short.

More later maybe.

 

[ss118]

Maybe it's time people used Rhyperior starters. =P

We should make one.