Oregon Smash Community [OSC] - Oregon's official Smash Community est. 2005

[Peach Masta]

Yeah don't worry, we'll be advertising the next one A TON.

 

[T0MMY]

I've read Sirlin's work (though it has been a few months) before, so I understand the concepts that this summarizes.

Note from author: I wouldn't say my guide simply summarizes, it takes the concepts that David Sirlin brought in from other resources (cited) and translates them to the Smash community then progresses from there.
Anyone want to nominate it for the $200 guide prize? :^)

Also, I see very few reason why it should be only a side event, when it has a number of merits over Customs: Off.

Doesn't Items: ON have a number of merits over Items: Off though?
Not hating on either, I think they're both fun. But that's the argument I see about the subjectivity of Custom, it's a matter of opinion and eventually the novelty wears off and it's back to Off setting.
Also, I am a proponent of Equipment despite the hate on that, I'd like to see everything used, at least give it a try in a side event? I asked for a Customizaton: On event for the BCG tourney on the 13th - it'll be used for a 4v4 event :^)

@Gage:
Yeah, I heard nothing about it outside of word of mouth and some of that were complaints, I know a lot of the P:M players were burned at Red Castle so probably precarious due to that, so probably good to try to smooth things over with them somehow.
But I am looking forward to coming up and playing Smash 4 in Portland, and make sure Teams happen this next time for sure. Come down to the Big City Gamin' tournament on the 13th and advertise your next event there - people from Medford and Bend area who travel to Smash tourneys will be interested!

 

[Jaxas]

Note from author: I wouldn't say my guide simply summarizes, it takes the concepts that David Sirlin brought in from other resources (cited) and translates them to the Smash community then progresses from there.
Anyone want to nominate it for the $200 guide prize? :^)

All right, I'll sit down and read through the full thing if I have the time sometime soon then

Doesn't Items: ON have a number of merits over Items: Off though?
Not hating on either, I think they're both fun. But that's the argument I see about the subjectivity of Custom, it's a matter of opinion and eventually the novelty wears off and it's back to Off setting.
Also, I am a proponent of Equipment despite the hate on that, I'd like to see everything used, at least give it a try in a side event? I asked for a Customizaton: On event for the BCG tourney on the 13th - it'll be used for a 4v4 event :^)

Items: ON has some merits, but it's also disruptive to competitive play. If Items were non-random in spawning, then they'd probably be legal. Having an Explosive Item spawn in front of you as you're charging a Smash Attack has nothing to do with player skill, and is hugely influential on the match. Therefore, items are banned (and tournaments using them exist as side events, for those who wish to play with them anyways; choice is always good, after all!)

Custom Moves, however, do not have this issue. Each custom is selected, consciously, by the players, and there is no random element with them outside of things like G&W's hammers (not really relevant) and the unlock rate (which is, admittedly, a huge freaking pain).

Custom Equipment could theoretically be legal as it's not random (excluding the unlock grind, again), however that is simply a matter of the fact that the community (almost) as a whole doesn't want to deal with them, and the fact that they cause "Degenerate Gameplay".

It is a single standard stage intended for the competitive side of play. It was chosen specifically by the development team and is found within the game itself. I see the first statement as giving us a 'standard competitive stage' and the second statement as an 'official' decision. Opinions will differ, but if I am incorrect of any of this, please let me know.

Honestly, I can see the argument for it being the "Official Stage" of Smash (4, anyways). I still don't believe it deserves to be the only legal stage, however.

I will accept the game for what is is, weak characters or otherwise. Aside from that, you and I do not even need to artificially strengthen or weaken characters with stages. How 'strong' and 'weak' a character is perceived is not only subjective but allowing for outlandish stages is about as accurate in helping to balance a roster of 49+ characters as turning items on High. Also, let's not forget that this game also gets balance patches apparently (3DS 1.0.4, and Wii U 1.0.1, with more presumably to come).

I wasn't talking about Stages here, but Custom Moves. A character is still that character with custom moves on, it's just that they're a better version of themselves in a competitive field with stiffer competition. Also, I wouldn't say we're artificially weakening characters by enabling customs, as that is a designed portion of the character; custom moves aren't created by random-gen, after all.

I personally enjoy watching high-level Meta Knight play in Brawl. I can also enjoy watching more casual matches that showcase other parts of the game, but when I watch Smash, I tend to watch competitive play.

I enjoy watching (some) as well, however I'm not talking about you and me. People who watch streams, and a large majority of the playerbase even are tired of it. This doesn't mean we should ban MK because he's boring or anything, however it does show that more diversity keeps spectators and players interested, which is a good thing as it grows the scene as a whole.

This is where the revelation of artistic merit is born. If I do something I love, such as cooking using my favorite recipe, each time it will be something new and each time will give me another opportunity to make that recipe as best I can. This is the same with Smash; it is art, it is science - as long as someone loves playing it, it will never grow old.

Indeed, that is how it works if someone loves playing it. But what about people watching it? Even more importantly, what about people who no longer love playing the game because it's fighting only the exact same 1-2 characters every time?
Again, I'm not saying that we shouldn't keep playing something if there's only 1 character, I'm saying that many people will stop caring about the game and therefore the competitive scene will be smaller if there is less diverstity.
If we can increase the diversity (as well as the number of almost-viable characters, and get those characters closer to the top so there's less of a disparity in power) with no real downside then why should we pass up the opportunity?

It's a lot more competitive than that statement makes it out to be.
http://www.worldrps.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuEZEyDdmvQ
http://blog.priceonomics.com/the-world-of-competitive-rock-paper-scissors/

Sorry, I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn't saying that competitive RPS wasn't a thing, I was saying that it's not a particularly popular spectator sport.

I didn't say "side event", I said "alongside", which would be indicative of equal footing. There is no reason to say one is 'better' than the other. I would really enjoy trying out and entering a Customization: ON tournament.

Sure, that would be great and I'd be all for it.
It's just not going to happen.

Logistics plays a role in things as well, and with many tournaments already being strapped for time with 2-3 games in, adding Smash 4 in there twice is just not going to happen. Apex and tournaments of that size are already multiple-day affairs, and that's with 3-4 games. We now have potential for 5 (in future years, assuming P:M comes back) and there's just no way a 6th game that is the same game but with different rules would be included, even if the second version of the game were better.

This question doesn't really need answering since every TO uses whatever rules they choose for each event they run. If it happens to be the same or similar to another set of rules, so be it. On a larger scale, though, every TO/region is deciding what rules they want to use for their events right now - it's not like we're secluding ourselves by doing the same.

Who's to say I'm not discussing things with other TOs in other areas? I've helped discuss, draft and propagate rules and standards with Melee, Brawl and now with SSB4 on a local, regional, and national scale. Salem/Portland/Eugene/Oregon/Pacific North West just happens to be where I'm most visible and vociferous in this regard.

Yes, most TOs use whatever rules they feel like. We should still have one large community ruleset for people to base their rulesets off of, though. But we are secluding ourselves in this specific conversation, by having it here instead of in the Competitive Ruleset Discussion (although we seem to have picked up a different conversation over there, ha).

And I believe that you are discussing things with other TOs, and I know your track record. I'm speaking purely about this conversation, and how we're having it in the Oregon Social Thread instead of the Competitive Ruleset Discussion thread.

 

[T0MMY]

All right, I'll sit down and read through the full thing if I have the time sometime soon then

You make me happy, thanks ^_^

Items: ON has some merits, but it's also disruptive to competitive play.

I usually avoid relying on "disruptive" because it's a word that has tricky semantics. I usually replace the word with "impedes" which signifies it conflicts with competitive principles whereas disrupt could be taken as simply changing it (platforms "disrupt" competitive play, but usually in a way that players like).

If Items were non-random in spawning, then they'd probably be legal.

Interesting statement, because I was thinking how Smashballs could be used in competition. They must be broken with skill (precision, timing, AND strategy). Also I don't think there's a balance issue this time around (Warioman/Super Sonic are nerfed - also Zero Suit Samus' looks nerfed from the Invitational pre-release tournament).
What do you think?

Custom Moves, however, do not have this issue. Each custom is selected, consciously, by the players, and there is no random element with them outside of things like G&W's hammers (not really relevant) and the unlock rate (which is, admittedly, a huge freaking pain).

It's a shame Sakurai didn't give us a "Custom Moves" On/Off option without the strings attached (Equipment & farming).

Custom Equipment could theoretically be legal as it's not random (excluding the unlock grind, again), however that is simply a matter of the fact that the community (almost) as a whole doesn't want to deal with them, and the fact that they cause "Degenerate Gameplay".

I'm not sure if it does cause Degenerate Gameplay, as you say, and if it does it leaves me to wonder what fighting game doesn't have some element of degeneration of gameplay - is it good/bad (competitively)?
Ultimately even if Equipment could be the best thing competitively the community pretty much excluded it from the start and I don't think it'll make its way into standard events.
But those For Fun! events are always good for some hype :^)

I think the sooner we come to a decision on a Standard for Oregon we can move things along to a regional and national level.
Too many times rules are nit-picked, if all those involved agree a decision will be compromised sooner rather than later and keep their eyes on the big picture then things work out better.
The nit-picky details can just be understood to be regional preferences, but we really need to come to a conclusion about the number of Stocks, how much (if any) Time is used, and what the Stages will be banned (not used at all in tourney) and which ones will be available for a Striking or Random procedure.

 

[Jaxas]

I usually avoid relying on "disruptive" because it's a word that has tricky semantics. I usually replace the word with "impedes" which signifies it conflicts with competitive principles whereas disrupt could be taken as simply changing it (platforms "disrupt" competitive play, but usually in a way that players like).

Actually I feel like it fits here, as the competitive play can be happening until, as per my previous example, a random item spawns to disrupt the otherwise competitive/skill-based match.

Interesting statement, because I was thinking how Smashballs could be used in competition. They must be broken with skill (precision, timing, AND strategy). Also I don't think there's a balance issue this time around (Warioman/Super Sonic are nerfed - also Zero Suit Samus' looks nerfed from the Invitational pre-release tournament).
What do you think?

I don't think Smash balls could be legal, mostly due to how they spawn both at random times and with random amounts of HP. Not sure, but I'm pretty sure they spawn at random locations (I know they at least fly around randomly even if they spawn in the same spot all the time.)

It's a shame Sakurai didn't give us a "Custom Moves" On/Off option without the strings attached (Equipment & farming).

Yeah, honestly that is the number 1 thing I want out of any upcoming patch; Sakurai please!

I'm not sure if it does cause Degenerate Gameplay, as you say, and if it does it leaves me to wonder what fighting game doesn't have some element of degeneration of gameplay - is it good/bad (competitively)?
Ultimately even if Equipment could be the best thing competitively the community pretty much excluded it from the start and I don't think it'll make its way into standard events.
But those For Fun! events are always good for some hype :^)

I can't say for sure that it technically causes degenerate gameplay (I personally think so), but as you said the point is basically moot in light of the community's decision on equipment

I think the sooner we come to a decision on a Standard for Oregon we can move things along to a regional and national level.
Too many times rules are nit-picked, if all those involved agree a decision will be compromised sooner rather than later and keep their eyes on the big picture then things work out better.
The nit-picky details can just be understood to be regional preferences, but we really need to come to a conclusion about the number of Stocks, how much (if any) Time is used, and what the Stages will be banned (not used at all in tourney) and which ones will be available for a Striking or Random procedure.

I do agree that we need to figure out all of those and quickly, but I still feel like we should do it not so much as "Oregon needs a ruleset for Smash 4!" but as "Smash 4 needs a ruleset!"

 

[Peach Masta]

yeah at Red Castle there was that flub with TIO and the PM tournament, but we made up with that at the last Smashnest. They had their event ran first with a fatty pot bonus and some other things. This last tournament had a smaller turn out, but that was just because of finals week and it was like 3 weeks after our last tournament. The first event had like 100 unique entrants and we're planning to break that at this next one. Hopefully running off the interest of smash 4.

 

[T0MMY]

yeah at Red Castle there was that flub with TIO and the PM tournament, but we made up with that at the last Smashnest. They had their event ran first with a fatty pot bonus and some other things. This last tournament had a smaller turn out, but that was just because of finals week and it was like 3 weeks after our last tournament. The first event had like 100 unique entrants and we're planning to break that at this next one. Hopefully running off the interest of smash 4.

Sounds good, and yeah, winter months are kind of "off season" is how I see it.
Maybe next time there will be a carpool for me to jump in on then :^)

And looking forward to Smash 4 events, but please fix the ruleset for next time:

• Character Bans
• Counterpicks (mostly looking at Halberd here)
  
• Customs for Palutena legal exception

I'm not sure how someone can "go the same color" as an opponent color, that seems unclear as to what it means as far as I know the game doesn't allow opposing teams to go same colors (glitch?).

There's also some issues with RPS to for decision (it is skill-based instead of a fair random drawing of lots) and DSR which is... well, "stupid" (If someone is not good on a Stage it's their own skill holding them back and they need to get better, this is competition afterall).
But really, the core issue with DSR is "counterpick" in general and I'd prefer competitions use "Standard Stage Selection" regarding striking procedure for now until nationals have their rules up (I'm guessing the same problematic counterpick system will be used though).

 

[Jaxas]

Someone can go the same color as the opponent in teams if your opponent's team is Red team and you play, for example, Mario's Red skin.
The ruling would mean you would have to pick another color.

And... why are you calling for character bans?

 

[T0MMY]

Someone can go the same color as the opponent in teams if your opponent's team is Red team and you play, for example, Mario's Red skin.
The ruling would mean you would have to pick another color.

Is that the color issue? I'm not sure if there's some kind of glitch/exploit it's referring to or simply saying "no 3v1" type of situation or maybe something like what you said. I'm avoiding the phrase "red skin" here as that sounds rather racist - yeah I'm part of an Indigenous Nation and will scalp any paleface that tries to make a peace treaty with me, haha). But if this is the case then it could cause more problems than it solves since something like Mario's "red costume" could be considered both red and blue colored and you got yourself a potential grimy DQ.

And... why are you calling for character bans?

Oh, and I wasn't calling for character bans, I was saying that the character ban in Gage's ruleset should probably be re-examined considering that nowhere else in Oregon has a character ban nor in the Pacific Northwest Regional event nor anywhere in the west coast and the character in question had about a 90% favorable rate (far more favorable than Diddy Kong I believe) among the general audience here at Smashboards last I checked.

 

[Peach Masta]

I basically copied and pasted Ktar with changing a few things. The Palutena customs won't get changed, because every one has access to her moveset and I have yet to see a reason on why it should be banned. I don't really care about mii's legal or not. If people want them, then they can get them. The color thing, like that guy said before, is so you can't pick the same color as someone elses team. Similar to the Lucario and Sonic rule in Brawl. CP's are still a work in progress. I dislike halberd and castle siege, but so far no one has said anything against it. DSR won't ever get changed and RPS will remain the same. Stage striking is a very minimal part in the whole process of playing a set imo

 

[T0MMY]

@Gage
Oh ok, that explains some of the rules, I think KTAR was a day-after-release event so not sure how their rules have changed since then.

I don't think Palutena's customs are ever banned, I think it's more of a problem making up a rule to give her an exception which brings up the problem of having just one character being allowed customs when no others have them available.
"Custom Fighters: Off" setting works out just fine for now, TO's who want Custom On will have to figure out how to address the issues it brings up.

Personally, I don't like Halberd or Castle Siege either.
It's understandable to have Castle available with striking, but Halberd has environmental hazards which is why I'd suggest to keep it off lists and let it be there for agreement only.

DSR doesn't make competitive sense, it gives a advantage to a player which is in the literal definition of "not fair". So it obviously shouldn't be supported without compelling reason.

RPS is skill-based; the same skill-based argument would be just as valid as enforcing players to play a game of tennis to make decisions, so I don't support it.

 

[Peach Masta]

if it was up to me and it was easier to access, I'd allow all custom moves. I think it's a fair exception for Palutena to have her customs. If any other character started with all their customs, I'd allow it as well, but until someone comes out with an easy to use all custom move pack hack. I don't see custom moves really being allowed for anyone else

 

[T0MMY]

Yeah, the differing rules I mentioned in my last post are almost inconsequential. The settings are most important thing to keep together on.
And, yeah, it's mostly a problem about accessibility.

Guess it's Customs Off for now. Although "Custom Move Pack Hack" sounds pretty cool.

So is Portland going with a default 3 Stock or a For Glory style 2 Stock?
I actually don't mind too much one way or the other, but found that a swiss or round robin Best of One 3-stock before double-elim brackets of 2-stock compliment each other very well.

I'll push for the Competitive Standard Stage Selection though, because it's that good: Strike down to 3 stages in a best of 3 and use those 3 stages for the set. Too good.

 

[t!MmY]

I think it's a fair exception for Palutena to have her customs.

How is that fair? There are plenty of weaker characters with worse Special Moves than Palutena. Making exceptions for a single character to have advantages over all other characters is exceptionally unfair. Please just turn Custom Fighters either on or off and have a solid, fair setting for everyone involved.

 

[T0MMY]

True, I'm sure the rest of the players who don't use Palutena would be mighty upset at that and would either want Custom off or let all characters use their custom moves.

I actually like Custom on with any and all Equipment, makes the game much more deep and exciting, plus it makes all matchups way more even.

 

[Jaxas]

How is that fair? There are plenty of weaker characters with worse Special Moves than Palutena. Making exceptions for a single character to have advantages over all other characters is exceptionally unfair. Please just turn Custom Fighters either on or off and have a solid, fair setting for everyone involved.

The question then becomes "Okay, so Mii Fighters can use customs. Why shouldn't Palutena be able to, then?".
Both characters start the game with all their customs unlocked, and they are the only characters with this distinction as well as completely unique custom moves rather than mostly tweaked attributes.

 

[Peach Masta]

I just feel it's a special attribute to Palutena. Shes not especially strong atm with them off or on. A character having different settings depending on playstyle leads to a pretty unique character imo.

We're doing 2 stock right now I think. I think I prefer 3, but we're not sure on time management. This game either takes forever or like no time at all (when my Shulk is playing )

 

[t!MmY]

The question then becomes "Okay, so Mii Fighters can use customs. Why shouldn't Palutena be able to, then?".

Mii's don't get to use 'customs' either. With the setting to "OFF" they don't get to use Equipment, the same as everyone else.

 

[Jaxas]

Mii's don't get to use 'customs' either. With the setting to "OFF" they don't get to use Equipment, the same as everyone else.

Purely semantics; they can still use custom moves.

 

[T0MMY]

The consensus is that the Mii do not use Custom Moves because the game does not define them as such. They are actually just Special Moves that are selected when you choose which Mii you want to use.

This isn't an issue for events that use Customization on, but for basic competitive play then customs off and select your character - that's it. No special favors for Palutena players just because she has hers unlocked from the beginning, that only reasonably helps with the Customs On events.

And 2 stock works out a lot better for time. I might like 3 stocks more, but every so often a 3-stock match will drag on a bit too much and I'd rather have a random 2-stock match go too quickly than have to have 3-stocks go too long X^D
Again, I like doing pools + bracket taking advantage of the different stock options respectively.

 

[Jaxas]

The consensus is that the Mii do not use Custom Moves because the game does not define them as such. They are actually just Special Moves that are selected when you choose which Mii you want to use.

Ahh, I see what you're saying.

And 2 stock works out a lot better for time. I might like 3 stocks more, but every so often a 3-stock match will drag on a bit too much and I'd rather have a random 2-stock match go too quickly than have to have 3-stocks go too long X^D
Again, I like doing pools + bracket taking advantage of the different stock options respectively.

Indeed, 2stock works better time-wise, though I do believe that 3stock is better in most other ways.
I'm not a fan of switching the stock count at a certain point in the tournament myself, however.

 

[t!MmY]

Up to this point in playing on the Wii U version, I think 2-stocks is really only useful for the bulk of bigger events like Pools. At the very least, Finals/Grands feel much more complete as 3 stocks. Watching Mew2King in Grand Finals at PNWR was fun, but there didn't seem to be as much of a build-up or sense of finality with the final games going with 2-stocks. I asked some other people and they said they would have preferred GF to be 3-stock as well.

 

[Peach Masta]

http://smashboards.com/threads/jan-...nd-bigger-by-cacaw-gaming-portland-or.384502/

 

[T0MMY]

Hope everyone has been having a happy holiday season!

And it's strange but I thought I'd like the 2-stock setting for flow of matches/time and it's been going well, but after using it most of the time I found I personally like 3-stock better after a while. They both have their ups/downs at their best/worst times, so not sure, but Apex rules were posted with 2-stock setting so I'll expect many other events to follow suit.

Edit: Awesome, new tourney. I'll post the event on the Oregon Group (linked on front page of this thread).
Could the rules be updated though? Maybe start with Apex rules and see what everyone thinks. Mii ban was a pretty big problem at NWR.

 

[Peach Masta]

we have no problem changing the rules over time. Suggestions are always welcomed. Also there is a date change for the event. We are going for Feb 21st. Not doing it this month

 

[T0MMY]

Ok, I'll change that on the Oregon Group then.

Oh, and we were discussing having Oregon using (practical) same rulesets. Seems like people want a solid ruleset the entire Oregon Community can expect to practice with instead of a patchwork of rules that change over time.
Just starting with some basics like using 2 or 3 stocks, game settings, and which Stages to practice on would suffice for the most part of SSB4's competitive life.

 

[Sideslick]

@ T0MMY directed me here to look for a ride to Gameclucks in Lynwood, WA for the next monthly.

Any chance any of you awesome Oregonian-Smashers could help me get a ride from the Puyallup, WA-area to Gameclucks and back?

I'd try to help out with gas, if you need it. Gas is near-dirt-cheap right now, so that might not even be an issue.

PNW was amazing. I need more.

 

[kulanah]

I was wondering if there are any local frendlies meetups for smash 4? I'm just starting to get into the game and I already dislike For Glory.

EDIT: In Portland

 

[Jaxas]

I was wondering if there are any local frendlies meetups for smash 4? I'm just starting to get into the game and I already dislike For Glory.

Where at specifically?
We have the Salem Smashfests here in Salem, and there are groups in Eugene, Portland, and I think Corvallis as well.

 

[kulanah]

Where at specifically?
We have the Salem Smashfests here in Salem, and there are groups in Eugene, Portland, and I think Corvallis as well.

Ah yeah that does help haha. In Portland.

 

[T0MMY]

When is the next Gameclucks? Depending on the date I'm not sure if I'll be going up there.
Also, if there isn't a carpool listed in the Smash groups you can check the Craigslist rideshares.

 

[Peach Masta]

I don't think there are any carpools right now planned for GC, but we usually make one within 1 week of the stuff. I'd check the facebook group if you're looking for a ride. It's usually only melee players that go up to GC.

As for smash 4, I'm down to play most of the time. I had a small 7 man smashfest at my place the other day. Other than that, I'm not sure on how many people in North Oregon actually play smash 4.

I'm in Beaverton/Hillsboro btw

 

[kulanah]

As for smash 4, I'm down to play most of the time. I had a small 7 man smashfest at my place the other day. Other than that, I'm not sure on how many people in North Oregon actually play smash 4.

I'm in Beaverton/Hillsboro btw

I would love to play sometime. I work M-F so weekends are generally better for me.

 

[t!MmY]

I would love to play sometime. I work M-F so weekends are generally better for me.

Luckily most of the (bigger) Smash happenings are always on Saturday.
Oh yeah, and since you're new around here I'd like to welcome you. I like to attend tournaments so hopefully we'll get a chance to play sometime soon.

 

[Sideslick]

When is the next Gameclucks? Depending on the date I'm not sure if I'll be going up there.
Also, if there isn't a carpool listed in the Smash groups you can check the Craigslist rideshares.

I called Gameclucks about a half-hour ago.

The next Smash-monthly is on Saturday, January 10th from approx. 12pm-1am (their hours for that day).

...Now I just need a ride to and from... Anyone wanting to help, I'll pay your venue fee and part of the gas-money if you help out. I still live in the Puyallup, WA-area.

EDIT: I most-likely have a ride. Feel free to make me an offer as a backup, but I most likely have a ride. See you at GameClucks!

 

[kulanah]

Luckily most of the (bigger) Smash happenings are always on Saturday.
Oh yeah, and since you're new around here I'd like to welcome you. I like to attend tournaments so hopefully we'll get a chance to play sometime soon.

Sounds good! I'm hoping to make it to that one that got posted up the page a bit.

 

[KokiriKory]

This! This is the thread I should have searched for months ago

I've only been in Portland (gresham.. ) for a year and a half now, leaving all my buddies back in california behind

I greatly wish for more local Smash scene! I will be keeping my eyes on this thread. Consider me there Feb 21st.

only interested in Smash 4

 

[Peach Masta]

There are smash 4 fests every friday in North Portland. Join the facebook group for easy updates. If you are interested in those fests and you don't have a facebook, I'll give you the address

 

[KokiriKory]

yeah i don't do facebook, but I'd love those details!

 

[kulanah]

I can't actually find the facebook group. >_>