Opinion: Smash 4 is an empty experience.

[Phillip Stratler]

Smash 4 is the perfect example of what happens when the creator loses their desire to create, and when the professional completely compromises the personal. Smash 4 isn't a product, it's a consequence, a consequence of what happens when a company needs to make a new game to stay relevant, yet has no ideas.

When you look at all of the prior installments to the Smash Bros. series, they each had a role and a purpose;

Smash 64 was the starting point of the series designed to establish the franchise's name and establish itself

Melee was the rising action, an enhancement of the original, designed to expand on the series and perfect it

Brawl was the climax; the terminus point for the series: "The Brawl to end them all", the grand finale designed to forever engrave Smash Brothers into the history books as not only a great game, but a legend; a story.

(Even in the music, it becomes increasingly grand and dramatic as the games progress, before ending in a legendarily climactic operatic-symphony.)

So, what is Smash 4

Smash 4 is the sequel to Brawl.

Really, when looked at the game objectively, free of any preconceived emotional attachments, Smash 4 simply exists to be the "next big thing". When one actually analyses the game, there is no substance to be found in it.

Even in the music, it is just a generic "epic" song, which, ultimately, lacks the feeling of substance that Brawl had.

Even when one compares the advertising and presentation of the games, Smash 4 is undoubtedly the most generic of them all. When you look at all of the prior games (especially Brawl) the advertising had a level of intimacy and love that is absent in Smash 4; in the Brawl Dojo, you get to see Sakurai's undiluted genius at work, as he personally and meticulously develops and crafts his game into the masterpiece it became. Everything--from the updates, to teasers, to even mysteries, were specially designed by him with love and care. This was back when Sakurai actually cared about making Smash Brothers games. Compare that to Smash 4 were it's simply another "badass" streamlined website made by random Nintendo and Sakurai staff, with Sakurai's individual involvement being limited to perhaps a few words and some commentary.

Reinsert your Brawl disc and observe the game; look at the "Vault" art, and compare it to Smash 4's vault "or should I say, 'Games & More'?", particularly, look at the confirmation screen for the Stage Builder; everything, from the format, presentation, and even background are designed to look as intimate as possible, almost as a letter. Even look at the Stage Creator itself; the feeling is completely different. In Brawl, the game actually takes itself seriously, using simplistic designs and a (once again) intimate song, compared to Smash 4, which touts in incoherent level editor, complete with a dull, artsy, quasi-french song to "compliment" your experience. In Brawl, when creating a stage via Stage Builder, it feels meaningful, personal, and impactful, versus Smash 4 where it simply feels "interesting", and "cute".

The characters are problematic too; look at Mario, for example, before, in Brawl, he used to be a serious character with a cool and creative design, but now in Smash 4 he just looks like a glossy joke; not only does he look like his molecules have been plasticized, but now for some reason he now opens his mouth in a cheesy ovular shape in every animation, these traits are also consistent in characters like Pac-Man and Megaman. When you look at the animations, all of them look "cute", or "interesting", but none of them are meaningful or impactful anymore.

Smash 4 is the weird result formed from over-producing a game, then processing it through a overly-cartoony filter. Smash 4 is a game that doesn't take itself seriously. Smash 4 is a game that isn't designed to have any meaning.

Ultimately, what makes Smash 4 different from the rest of the games is one thing.

Smash 4 has no soul.

Ultimately, this is what hinders it the most. Smash 4 doesn't feel like a game designed by a man with love, care, and detail, it is merely a glossy new product that was designed to take your money. Almost everybody you'll encounter will say that Smash 4 is a blast, fun, or cool, but very few will actually say that it's a good game. Many people have said that Melee and Brawl were good and memorable games, however nobody has said that Smash 4 is a memorable game, because it isn't.

In a few years, Smash 4 will be discarded and forgotten, because that's what it was made for; to last until the next release before being scrapped and replaced. Oftentimes when people hear these arguments, they try to hide behind Competitive and "Balance" (both of which are antonymous to "Smash 4"), because the truth is that they have no counterargument. Deep down, everybody knows this truth, some simply try to hide it, and others, reject it, due to fear of rejection themselves.

The prior Smash Bros. installments will always be superior to Smash 4, not because of graphics, or relevance, but because they are experiences. Smash 4 is just a game.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

They're all just games.

 

[MercuryPenny]

you sure do take your casual party games seriously :^)

 

[flamer180]

Smash 4 is the perfect example of what happens when the creator loses their desire to create, and when the professional completely compromises the personal. Smash 4 isn't a product, it's a consequence, a consequence of what happens when a company needs to make a new game to stay relevant, yet has no ideas.

I agree there is something definitely wrong with some of the characters in smash 4. They got sloppy with the characters in Smash 4. Some will disagree because some people are blind fanboys.

They took out just charizard from pokemon trainer, which is lazy and boring. They duplicated pit and made dark pit, literally a cheap tactic.

They seperated zelda from shiek which to me is blasphemy. Lets not mention wii fit. Even the makers were skeptical about how people would react to wii fit.

The Mii, to me which is ********.

They took out a classic character like ice climbers. I dont care if there was a programming problem or something, they couldve started from stratch. Ice climbers is classic.

They definitely couldve done better picking out the characters. I feel they felt too rushed by the fans, and made some sloppy crap.

Hopefully they get rid of Wii **** for the next game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ultimately, this is what hinders it the most. Smash 4 doesn't feel like a game designed by a man with love, care, and detail, it is merely a glossy new product that was designed to take your money. Almost everybody you'll encounter will say that Smash 4 is a blast, fun, or cool, but very few will actually say that it's a good game. Many people have said that Melee and Brawl were good and memorable games, however nobody has said that Smash 4 is a memorable game, because it isn't.

Smash 4 is also one of the best selling. Also, 64 is very good and memorable too. For that matter, the game only finished DLC a bit more than a year ago. Is it really going to be memorable when it's barely been out as its full version for less than 2 years? Nostalgia requires time. It also is an extremely popular game and the Wii U version is a major tourney game. So it clearly has a huge impact. Brawl is barely played for tourneys. Melee still is. I like Brawl too, but the only thing that made it memorable for the majority of players happened to be the roster, due to feeling more diverse than 4 for some series.

Sakurai is also extremely passionate, to the point of sacrificing his own health to make the game great. He works severely hard to make everything as good as possible. He may have views people disagree with, and that's fine, but let's not undermine his work, okay? You also are forgetting that he alone didn't design it. Of course it's going to feel different. Bandai-Namco are also part of the development team.

In a few years, Smash 4 will be discarded and forgotten, because that's what it was made for; to last until the next release before being scrapped and replaced. Oftentimes when people hear these arguments, they try to hide behind Competitive and "Balance" (both of which are antonymous to "Smash 4"), because the truth is that they have no counterargument. Deep down, everybody knows this truth, some simply try to hide it, and others, reject it, due to fear of rejection themselves.

Oh, drop the condescending silliness. No, people very much knows the truth, and that's "the game exists and we should enjoy it on our own merits." It isn't going to be forgotten either. Pretty hard to when it's still the major fighting game of the Wii U, as well as one of the most defining games of the 3DS as is. Never mind it's got huge tourneys dedicated to it. Also, don't tell us what to think. That's not your job.

The prior Smash Bros. installments will always be superior to Smash 4, not because of graphics, or relevance, but because they are experiences. Smash 4 is just a game.

Smash 4 is no less an experience realistically. A game is something you experience. I could say the same thing about Brawl and it'd be just as correct as what you said. You're making your opinion sound like a fact, which kind of undermines your point. Obviously this is what you believe. Now, my main disagreements is that you're telling us what to think and giving Sakurai too little credit(again, he's working in an unhealthy way, out of pure passion for the series he loves).

 

[flamer180]

Smash 4 is also one of the best selling. Also, 64 is very good and memorable too. For that matter, the game only finished DLC a bit more than a year ago. Is it really going to be memorable when it's barely been out as its full version for less than 2 years? Nostalgia requires time. It also is an extremely popular game and the Wii U version is a major tourney game.

Just because its best selling, doesnt mean its a good game lol It doesnt always go hand in hand.

Its only popular because its the latest game to come out. And because it actually is a little decent. To claim smash 4 is the best smash bros haha would be a debate. Melee players would have a word with that lol

If you cant criticize Sakurai's work if sakurai has made mistakes, then theres something wrong with you. No one is perfect.

It doesnt matter if he died while making the game, if the game comes out like ****, then it is ****. And you know what I mean lol

There definitely can be a better smash made than smash 4 lol Sakurai couldve done better

Your giving Sakurai TOO MUCH credit. People do. They're fanboys.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Ignore this post.

I think you missed the joke.

 

[LucinaNab1]

This is where mods come in, to refresh and revitalize the game. You want to talk about revolutionary, what work the mods are is revolutionary.

 

[flamer180]

"you sure do take your casual party games seriously :^)"

haha

 

[Heracr055]

In addition to what Purrfect Cell said, there is a lot of love for the chars put in this game. You need not look much further than the reveal trailers for the newcomers and DLC characters in this game. Not to mention how nuts it is that many of these chars are in the game (Shulk, Mega Man, Ryu and Bayonetta being fantastic examples of remaining true to their source games).

 

[ThatsBullocks]

I actually feel pretty much the same as OP! If we went beyond the presentation, the game modes are essentially poor substitutes for previous modes: Target Blast replaced Break the Targets with basically Angry Birds, Smash Run replaced Adventure and Subspace with the same map every time, the Classic Mode replaces the older versions of Classic modes with a much more generic Arcade-style mode, Trophy Rush replaces Lottery/Snag the Trophies and Coin Shooter with plain skill-less "break all the falling s**t", Master/Crazy Orders are basically Event Mode Lite, Smash Tour is a less compelling stand-in for Smash Run, and the Stage Creator is a laughable shadow of what it was in Brawl.

There's a lot to collect, namely Mii Gear, custom moves, and equipment. Problem is, other than Mii Gear they're not terribly exciting for the most part. Most of the custom moves are lazy slight variations on base moves (there's some real missed opportunities like Mario/Luigi not having Hammer, Boomerang, Super Ball, or other items replace their fireballs for Customs), they're absolutely annoying to collect, and very few really solve problems that characters would ordinarily have. Equipment is also annoying to collect, but it has the issue of forcing stat changes with everything and the need to individually set up characters with these if you want a consistent experience across the board; the stat-changing should've been kept to the Miis IMO.

The character roster also had its issues. I will concede that it also had some great, exciting additions (namely, Little Mac, Villager, Robin, Mii, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Cloud) but then there are some real head-scratchers, like the 3 Clones (Doc is somewhat justified since he addresses an issue people have with Brawl/4 Mario but even then that could've been answered with giving Mario back his old d-air and his old Tornado as a Custom) and a lot of "flavor of the month" choices. Say what you will about Brawl as an overall game, but one of its biggest strengths was how well-rounded the roster was, especially since it added characters to many franchises. Sm4sh is far more wonky in the "balance" of character distribution: Mario and Fire Emblem got a bunch of characters, but some seminal franchises like DK/Zelda/Metroid/Star Fox haven't (Star Fox lost one). There's quite a lot of "same-y" characters, especially in how many swordsmen are present in the roster (depending on how you qualify a "swordsman" there's 10-14 characters, or about 1/6th-1/4th of the roster).

And then the gameplay. Other than ledge-trumping and Rage, what does Sm4sh's core gameplay offer that can't be found in previous games? Why do characters feel so similar to each other? Why did they ruin the improved movement speed with loads of hitlag and landing lag? Why is off-stage so freaking safe? Then you realize: they probably meant to have the gameplay as a "blank slate" for people to work off of, building on it with Customs and equipment, but they're both such underwhelming and monumental ass-pains to deal with that it doesn't really work to have the gameplay set up like this (plus this stuff isn't allowed online with strangers or in tournaments so that factor of gameplay goes almost totally dead).

Graphics are also a mixed bag. Some characters look fine, but others either look off due to new wonky models (e.g. Link, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf) or because they have minorly edited Brawl models (e.g. most of the Mario characters). Brawl re-used some Melee models but that was OK there since the power-gap between the GCN and Wii wasn't huge, but it is between the Wii and WiiU so these re-used models in Sm4sh stick out like a sore thumb.

Finally, stages. Not as big a mess-up as other aspects of the game, but the stage offerings leave a lot to be desired, especially on WiiU. Why would they revive so many N64 stages for DLC but no Melee ones? Omega Mode is the biggest offender for stage lineups, as it shows that Sakurai doesn't understand competitive Smash play at all and essentially designed it as a "go in the corner and f**k off you tourneytards" mode.

Overall, Sm4sh's problems tend to stem from it not being a horrible game but being astonishingly bland. An under-achiever and proud of it.

I respect what Sakurai's done for the series in most regards but it's obvious he doesn't have the touch he used to have.

 

[Heracr055]

^Those are points I can agree with (with the first paragraph). Not so with the OP's points, though.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

I like Smash 4's core mechanics better than Brawl's and maybe better then Melee (granted, I haven't played much Melee myself, but from a spectator's point of view)

No more chain-grabs. Did anybody actually like these?

Much less Ledge-stalling (with invincibility only the first grab)

Overall much more balance between the characters. There are obvious top tiers and obvious bottom tiers, but the list of "viable" characters is leagues above both Brawl and Melee.

Just enough combo-potential to make it interesting to watch, but there is also a good amount of the game played in neutral. In my opinion, Brawl had not nearly enough combos (excluding the chain-grabs)

 

[flamer180]

[QUOTE="origamiscienceguy
Overall much more balance between the characters. There are obvious top tiers and obvious bottom tiers, but the list of "viable" characters is leagues above both Brawl and Melee./QUOTE]


It's only more viable because theres more characters to choose from. You'll be saying the same when smash 5, 6, and 7 come out. Which surely the number of characters should keep increasing.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

No. I do not mean that at all.

In melee, the only characters viable enough to win a major are:
Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Puff, Peach. 6 out of 25

Brawl, it was MetaKnight, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Marth, Snake, and Maybe Falco. 6 out of 37 (counting Samus and zero suit as separate characters, because you can't switch mid-match)

Smash 4, so far, we have seen wins from: diddy Kong, Bayonetta, Cloud, Villager, Fox, MewTwo, Zero Suit, Meta Knight, Rosalina, Sonic, Mario, Greninja, Ryu, and many others that I am probably forgetting.

13 out of 58,

You do the math.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Except Brawl had significantly less balance and less viable characters. So did Melee. Smash 64 had the most viable other than Smash 4 itself. With 12 characters, balance isn't as hard. With more, it's much harder, not easier. The reason for so much viability is due to them trying to make the game more balanced. That's why Sakurai wanted Bandai-Namco on the team, to help make his game better in more than one way, including balance.

 

[flamer180]

No. I do not mean that at all.

In melee, the only characters viable enough to win a major are:
Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Puff, Peach. 6 out of 25

Thats wrong though. You can win with other characters too. You just gotta have good enough skill.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Please show me one video of an Ike winning a major.

If he is as good as you praise, you should have no problem.

 

[Nohbl]

origamiscienceguy
I don't know your definition of "major", but Wizzrobe's Captain Falcon won Low Tier City 5 in Texas just this weekend, albeit with no gods in attendance, but 319 other competitors. Your list of characters instead says who would theoretically easiest to win with, but characters like Luigi, Ice Climbers, and Captain Falcon have all demonstrated potential to win big tournaments of their own, having come close on some occasions.

~~~
P Phillip Stratler
Although the end result was a disappointment for many fans of the series who wanted something more competitive and possessing of a lot more quality of life features, tr4sh did some or a lot of things right. I won't get into the pros and cons of tr4sh right now, but it is ingenious to claim that "there is no substance to be found in it." A fairer criticism of tr4sh would be to acknowledge the few aspects of it that you enjoyed or that really possess merit and deserve some praise, and then get into the many points on which the game fails.

As to your core theory that the game was abandoned by and not attached to Sakurai, you do have points of proof, but so do others who have posted ITT claiming the opposite.

 

[flamer180]

Please show me one video of an Ike winning a major.

If he is as good as you praise, you should have no problem.

I said it's possible. It is.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

Ok, and it is possible for a jigglypuff to win EVO 2018. What's your point?

 

[Deleted member]

Ultimately, what makes Smash 4 different from the rest of the games is one thing.

Smash 4 has no soul.

You're solemnly suggesting that Sm4sh doesn't compare to its predecessors? Honey, I don't believe you. I'm 55 years old and having fun with this game (I haven't had this much fun since playing Tekken 3 back in 1999). I daresay, the vast amount of content here has me coming back for more. I think Sakurai and crew never fails to make the Smash series as enjoyable as possible, and yes, I think Smash 4 is a top-notch game in my book.

And according to critical reviews, this game won't be forgotten about for quite a while.

 

[origamiscienceguy]

There are several ways to improve this game, of course, the peripheral modes do suck quite badly compared to brawl's, but the core game is still there, and I think it is the best iteration of them all.

 

[flamer180]

Ok, and it is possible for a jigglypuff to win EVO 2018. What's your point?

I didnt say ALL characters, I just said MORE characters.

Shizuka Kawai said:
[QUOTE="You're solemnly suggesting that Sm4sh doesn't compare to its predecessors? Honey, I don't believe you. "[/QUOTE]

No. Sakurai couldve honestly done better. But each to their own. "Top-Notch" haahahah

No. XD

origamiscienceguy Said:
"and I think it is the best iteration of them all"

Please stop. XD No it's not. Its the cheapest copy of the series lol

I hope the melee fans are ready to come pound that butt

 

[origamiscienceguy]

I didnt say ALL characters, I just said MORE characters.

origamiscienceguy Said:
"and I think it is the best iteration of them all"

Please stop. XD No it's not. Its the cheapest copy of the series lol

O crap, you just said that my opinion was wrong without any credible reasoning.

I need to rethink my entire life now.

Sarcasm aside, you cannot tell me what opinions to have, nor can you tell anybody to stop sharing their opinions. In case you haven't realized, this is the internet, and you have no power over anybody.

 

[MiniSara]

I agree with OP. Smash 4 was not a necessary game, as it's way too similar to previous installments. It doesn't bring anything new to the table except HD graphics.

 

[Starkuss]

I think it speaks lengths that they didn't give it a creative name like "Melee" or "Brawl", and instead just named it's platform - "Super Smash Bros. for Wii U".

 

[SmashChu]

I agree with this. Smash 4 never felt like it was trying to outdue Brawl, it was just another game. It never has that same magic that Brawl had. Brawl, despite some of its gameplay quirks, felt like it was trying to be better than Melee. Smash 4 feels like it's just trying to be different. Look at Classic. It's way worse than any of the other games and instead, they add this overly long boss fight at the end. They focused on these little game modes while having a worse single player experience. And a lot of the characters just felt like their Brawl counter part (why does Mario still have FLUDD?). And let's not forget the overly complicated menus. It never feels like a better game, but a different game.

Smash 4 is a good game, but it's not a great game.

Smash 4 is also one of the best selling.

Well, first off, there are only 5 games in the series so it's easy to be "one of the best." In terms of it being the best selling, it is when you take sales of both games. If you try to account for double counting (someone buying both versions), its likely less than Brawl.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Never eever felt like it was ever just a game. It's felt gameplay tried to reach to be better than the previous installment.

In terms if art design, I'd actually argue smash 4 is the best if the bunch. I'm not talking about graphic solely but in terms of how the art stands out.

Brawl went for a more "serious" art style and in some terms it may not age well.

64 is fine for what it is.

Melee has some solid art design but the lighting sometimes needs work.

Don't agree with music, it's very varied overall with epic versus more laid back.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I remember how hyped I was in the months leading up to Smash 3DS's release, and how mesmerized I continued to be months after by all the new stages and characters thinking it was the next best thing. Now, nearly three years later, having hardly touched vanilla Smash in about a year, I find myself looking back at Smash 4 with an uncomfortable, dissonant disappointment that I absolutely hate to be harboring towards this game that had such an unforgettable prerelease hype train. While my experience with the online community may be a major contributing factor in all this, reading through this thread, I find that disturbingly, I agree with a lot of the points being made against Smash 4. All in all, it just doesn't seem like Smash 4 made much of an honest effort to differentiate itself from previous installments (aside from the graphical overhaul and warranted new characters/stages), and what they did add new is, frankly, a bit of a mixed bag, most infamously the neutered singleplayer modes they added at the expense of things from old games that were better (revamping Classic mode for no reason, replacing any form of Adventure Mode with City Trial w/ obnoxious enemies and a ****ing board game, throwing out Break the Targets in favor of wonky Angry Birds, etc.). Maybe it's just nostalgia talking - hell, it probably is - but I just don't feel the same way towards 4 that I did towards Melee or Brawl. Gameplay-wise, it just feels like something isn't there (although that "something" might be a proper Adventure Mode, considering how much I adored Melee's Adventure Mode as a child and love playing through Brawl's SSE to this day). While I still find myself popping in Melee and Brawl every now and then even in the absence of actual people to play with, going off of how little I play the game nowadays, I can't say I see myself coming back to Smash 4 much in the coming years, especially after they cut the servers, which is a real shame.

 

[HerbsnSpices910]

Fact: No matter how good Smash 4 could have technically been, it would never have satisfied you.

Your experience of Brawl was so joyful and starry-eyed that Smash 4 could never have lived up to your expectations.

I know this because I had the same experience a game previous.

I discovered Smash 64 and instantly fell in love with it. It wasn't too long after discovering this incredible game that the Nintendo Gamecube was due for release, and of course I had my eyes firmly on the sequel, Super Smash Bros. Melee.

To this day, Melee easily makes it into my top 5 games of all time, and that's without the tech exploits that are used for competitive play. Each of the characters truly represent their respective franchises (yes, even Pichu) as a guide through Nintendo's history. The graphical, musical and interactive qualities forge an aura of beauty unfound not only in 95% of video games, but 95% of all art ever conceived.

So, you can only imagine how excited I was for Brawl. So excited, in fact, that I literally could not wait for the PAL release date, and instead ordered the NTSC version and a Freeloader so I could play it 3 months early.

I did enjoy Brawl. I played the game in full and the experience was fulfilling, and I do believe that it's a fantastic game in its own right. However, when compared to Melee, the graphics are sterile and boring, the gameplay is slow and the new character designs are cartoony, yet still overcomplicated in terms of detail. The music is still amazing, but that's not enough to surpass the atmospheric euphoria that Melee provided me with.

I love Smash 4 as well, since it feels like a better version of Brawl (but without the story mode which really does suck hard), but again, it won't ever replace my time with Melee as a 9-12 year old.

You need to accept that no Smash game from this point forward is going to satisfy you in the same way as Brawl did. Enjoy the all Smash games as a separate experience removed from their franchise, and you will enjoy it more.

 

[SmashChu]

Fact: No matter how good Smash 4 could have technically been, it would never have satisfied you.

Your experience of Brawl was so joyful and starry-eyed that Smash 4 could never have lived up to your expectations.

I know this because I had the same experience a game previous.

I discovered Smash 64 and instantly fell in love with it. It wasn't too long after discovering this incredible game that the Nintendo Gamecube was due for release, and of course I had my eyes firmly on the sequel, Super Smash Bros. Melee.

To this day, Melee easily makes it into my top 5 games of all time, and that's without the tech exploits that are used for competitive play. Each of the characters truly represent their respective franchises (yes, even Pichu) as a guide through Nintendo's history. The graphical, musical and interactive qualities forge an aura of beauty unfound not only in 95% of video games, but 95% of all art ever conceived.

So, you can only imagine how excited I was for Brawl. So excited, in fact, that I literally could not wait for the PAL release date, and instead ordered the NTSC version and a Freeloader so I could play it 3 months early.

I did enjoy Brawl. I played the game in full and the experience was fulfilling, and I do believe that it's a fantastic game in its own right. However, when compared to Melee, the graphics are sterile and boring, the gameplay is slow and the new character designs are cartoony, yet still overcomplicated in terms of detail. The music is still amazing, but that's not enough to surpass the atmospheric euphoria that Melee provided me with.

I love Smash 4 as well, since it feels like a better version of Brawl (but without the story mode which really does suck hard), but again, it won't ever replace my time with Melee as a 9-12 year old.

You need to accept that no Smash game from this point forward is going to satisfy you in the same way as Brawl did. Enjoy the all Smash games as a separate experience removed from their franchise, and you will enjoy it more.

I disagree entirely. I've played all of the Smash game and was an adult when Brawl came out. I don't think it has anything to do with having rose colored glasses on. I think it's an issue of Smash 4 lacking a soul.

Each game in the series really tried to out due to ones that came before it in almost every way. Each game felt like a step forward from the previous. Let's take the single player for instance. The first game only had a classic mode. Then, we get a larger Adventure mode with platforming sections and scenarios. Brawl tried to take it a step further by making an entire campaign with cutscenes and an overarching story. What does Smash 4 try to do. Absolutely nothing. In no way does it try to out due to single player of the previous games. It instead takes the Classic mode, which remained solid in all three games, by making it some weird tournament in the Wii U game, adding an unnecessary scale and changing it so you only have 2 lives that just reset after each round. It doesn't advance the single player experience of the other games. It just tries to be different for difference's sake.

This can be applied to almost everything about Smash 4. Stages, music, and probably even characters. Smash 4 never sets out to beat it's compeitors but just try to be another version of them. In many ways what hurt the game the most was trying to make it too games. Rather than making a top notch experience, they had to break the games apart. So what you are left with is two good games costing $100 rather than one amazing game costing $60.

I don't think the people comapling in this thread are looking at a "simplier time." I think there are legitimate gripes with Smash 4. Any game can be critized, but at least each game gave it an honest attempt. You can complain about Brawl until the cows came home, but Brawl tried to outdue Melee. Smash 4 in a lot of ways just copies Brawl. Besdies the major two modes, what does Smash 4 try to do better than Brawl. Not sure you'll come up with much.

 

[HerbsnSpices910]

I disagree entirely. I've played all of the Smash game and was an adult when Brawl came out. I don't think it has anything to do with having rose colored glasses on. I think it's an issue of Smash 4 lacking a soul.

You might have been an adult, but the OP is 19, meaning he would have been 10 at Brawl's release. Pair this with his questionable comparisons and it really does just come across as nostalgic longing. Apparently creativity in Brawl means washy colours and overdesigns on characters that don't need them. But a true-to-form SSB4 Mario is a "glossy joke"? Give me a break.

Each game in the series really tried to out due to ones that came before it in almost every way. Each game felt like a step forward from the previous. Let's take the single player for instance. The first game only had a classic mode. Then, we get a larger Adventure mode with platforming sections and scenarios. Brawl tried to take it a step further by making an entire campaign with cutscenes and an overarching story. What does Smash 4 try to do. Absolutely nothing. In no way does it try to out due to single player of the previous games. It instead takes the Classic mode, which remained solid in all three games, by making it some weird tournament in the Wii U game, adding an unnecessary scale and changing it so you only have 2 lives that just reset after each round. It doesn't advance the single player experience of the other games. It just tries to be different for difference's sake.

Smash 4 fixes everything wrong with Brawl in terms of gameplay and graphics. It's faster paced with more flexible movement/mobility options, there's size variation amongst the characters, the combo system has drastically improved, and the game is more defined and colourful overall - like the characters have actually all poured in from their various home series' to duke it out. Pair that with the already fantastic music and you get an audibly and visually vibrant game. I agree that the 1 Player is experience is a lesser one, though. It's for this reason that I cannot choose between Brawl and Smash 4 in terms of which I prefer as a game overall. Smash 4 just comes across better in terms of application and presentation (save for the jumbled menu). Brawl is better in terms of concept.

This can be applied to almost everything about Smash 4. Stages, music, and probably even characters. Smash 4 never sets out to beat it's compeitors but just try to be another version of them.

This is just straight up wrong, for the reasons I have already listed above and also because the music is the same but expanded on quantity-wise (more musik, oh noes!). You could argue that the music is mixed and mastered differently when compared to Brawl, but that doesn't mean it's bad. I agree that some of the stages are either underwhelming or a bit of a stretch, but most of them are great. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

In many ways what hurt the game the most was trying to make it too games. Rather than making a top notch experience, they had to break the games apart. So what you are left with is two good games costing $100 rather than one amazing game costing $60.

While I agree that two versions was a bad idea, both games turned out great. If we didn't have both versions and were given just the Wii U version, we'd probably have pretty much the same game but with Ice Climbers and Pokemon Trainer included.

I don't think the people comapling in this thread are looking at a "simplier time." I think there are legitimate gripes with Smash 4. Any game can be critized, but at least each game gave it an honest attempt. You can complain about Brawl until the cows came home, but Brawl tried to outdue Melee. Smash 4 in a lot of ways just copies Brawl. Besdies the major two modes, what does Smash 4 try to do better than Brawl. Not sure you'll come up with much.

In a nutshell, gameplay and aesthetics are the main areas of improvement. Brawl may have tried to outdo Melee in terms of content, but what good is that if the gameplay is a stodgy lag of washy Nintendo characters having difficulty with extended combat?

I tried to stop myself from saying this, but this is exactly why Melee is the best game in the series. The gameplay is fluid, it's visually vivid and is artistically sound overall, with an outstanding OST to boot. It got everything right. Even the glitchiness is fun to mess with.

Brawl and Smash 4 both have their shortcomings, but to say that Smash 4 is absent of a soul? That's ridiculous.

 

[Spiwizzle]

On the contrary, I think it's a super vibrant, colorful and fun experience! I think it has it's own wacky personality along with the other games in the series. And at the end of the day, do you really need to analyze a fun little nintendo party game? As MercuryPenny said,

you sure do take your casual party games seriously :^)

 

[Crystanium]

Smash 4 is the perfect example of what happens when the creator loses their desire to create,

Prove the creator lost his desire to create. In fact, the creator that is Sakurai wasn't the only one involved, so that's an opinion all right.

and when the professional completely compromises the personal.

Contact Sakurai so you can prove this as well. Sure, what you wrote is an opinion, but I couldn't say it's informed.

Smash 4 isn't a product,

Of course it is. Look up "product".

it's a consequence,

Just like Melee. SSB did so well, Melee was made.

a consequence of what happens when a company needs to make a new game to stay relevant, yet has no ideas.

Nintendo has been around for decades. They're still relevant. I see plenty of ideas that were used for Sm4sh.

When you look at all of the prior installments to the Smash Bros. series, they each had a role and a purpose;

Oh, ****!

Smash 64 was the starting point of the series designed to establish the franchise's name and establish itself

This is true for any new IP. If it flops, the company won't spend their time on it unless people demand it.

Melee was the rising action, an enhancement of the original, designed to expand on the series and perfect it

As much as Melee gets praised and treated like the best, I doubt it perfected SSB. The tier list is grossly one-sided and the majority of the characters have no viability.

Brawl was the climax;

You mean anti-climactic? SSBB was like bad sex. No one liked it, except casual players because they were out of Melee's league.

the terminus point for the series: "The Brawl to end them all",

Fortunately, it didn't end at SSBB because I could see SSBB having possibly been the death knell of the series.

the grand finale designed to forever engrave Smash Brothers into the history books as not only a great game, but a legend; a story.

If SSBB is your idea of "the grand finale", then I'm sorry that you feel that way.

(Even in the music, it becomes increasingly grand and dramatic as the games progress, before ending in a legendarily climactic operatic-symphony.)

Maybe on Final Destination, but FD's main theme became rather too much for my ears.

So, what is Smash 4

A game.

Smash 4 is the sequel to Brawl.

And a better one at that.

Really, when looked at the game objectively, free of any preconceived emotional attachments, Smash 4 simply exists to be the "next big thing".

What sequel isn't? At least it's out-shined SSBB. But if you take SSBB objectively and free of any pre-conceived emotional attachments, you see it's a flop in the series and worthy of being forgotten in the annals of history.

When one actually analyses the game, there is no substance to be found in it.

That depends on what you mean by "substance".

Even in the music, it is just a generic "epic" song, which, ultimately, lacks the feeling of substance that Brawl had.

Then go play SSBB. Problem solved. Or is this a complaint that no one plays SSBB?

Even when one compares the advertising and presentation of the games, Smash 4 is undoubtedly the most generic of them all.

The only advertisement I've ever seen for SSB as a whole is for the first game.

When you look at all of the prior games (especially Brawl) the advertising had a level of intimacy and love that is absent in Smash 4; in the Brawl Dojo, you get to see Sakurai's undiluted genius at work, as he personally and meticulously develops and crafts his game into the masterpiece it became.

What planet are you living on? SSBB is Sakurai's genius at work and his masterpiece? My god, good thing he went to a company who knew about fighting games.

Everything--from the updates, to teasers, to even mysteries, were specially designed by him with love and care. This was back when Sakurai actually cared about making Smash Brothers games. Compare that to Smash 4 were it's simply another "badass" streamlined website made by random Nintendo and Sakurai staff, with Sakurai's individual involvement being limited to perhaps a few words and some commentary

So?

Reinsert your Brawl disc and observe the game; look at the "Vault" art, and compare it to Smash 4's vault "or should I say, 'Games & More'?",

Wait, stop here. I've actually gone back to SSBB when I didn't have any access to Sm4sh and it's ugly. Really, who thought red and white was a good idea for its interface? I honestly was surprised because I couldn't believe I hadn't noticed it before until after playing Sm4sh.

particularly, look at the confirmation screen for the Stage Builder; everything, from the format, presentation, and even background are designed to look as intimate as possible, almost as a letter. Even look at the Stage Creator itself; the feeling is completely different. In Brawl, the game actually takes itself seriously, using simplistic designs and a (once again) intimate song, compared to Smash 4, which touts in incoherent level editor, complete with a dull, artsy, quasi-french song to "compliment" your experience. In Brawl, when creating a stage via Stage Builder, it feels meaningful, personal, and impactful, versus Smash 4 where it simply feels "interesting", and "cute".

I get it. You prefer SSBB over Sm4sh. Clearly, no serious competitor is going to take your piece legitimately.

The characters are problematic too; look at Mario, for example, before, in Brawl, he used to be a serious character with a cool and creative design, but now in Smash 4 he just looks like a glossy joke;

Mario? Serious? Mario has never been a serious character.

not only does he look like his molecules have been plasticized, but now for some reason he now opens his mouth in a cheesy ovular shape in every animation, these traits are also consistent in characters like Pac-Man and Megaman. When you look at the animations, all of them look "cute", or "interesting", but none of them are meaningful or impactful anymore.

What the **** does "interesting" mean?

Smash 4 is the weird result formed from over-producing a game, then processing it through a overly-cartoony filter. Smash 4 is a game that doesn't take itself seriously. Smash 4 is a game that isn't designed to have any meaning.

And just like any assertion without evidence, we can dismiss this nonsense without evidence.

Ultimately, what makes Smash 4 different from the rest of the games is one thing.

Smash 4 has no soul.

Duh. It's a game, not a living person.

Ultimately, this is what hinders it the most.

Smash 4 doesn't feel like a game designed by a man with love, care, and detail, it is merely a glossy new product that was designed to take your money.

Sm4sh wasn't designed by a man. Also, no one can take your money, except perhaps a mugger, the IRS, or whoever has that power. People buy things they like.

Almost everybody you'll encounter will say that Smash 4 is a blast, fun, or cool, but very few will actually say that it's a good game.

Just like SSBB? And why does anyone have to use the exact words: "good game"? And who are these "very few"? Casual players?

Many people have said that Melee and Brawl were good and memorable games, however nobody has said that Smash 4 is a memorable game, because it isn't.

Because it's the current game. Duh. SSBB wasn't good and it wasn't memorable.

In a few years, Smash 4 will be discarded and forgotten, because that's what it was made for; to last until the next release before being scrapped and replaced.

Sm4sh was released in 2014. It's 2017. "A few years" have passed and Sm4sh is still around. And with all your praise for SSBB, it was discarded and forgotten once Sm4sh was released. Why is that? No tripping, more viable characters, combos, hit stun, a diverse set of characters to choose from.

Oftentimes when people hear these arguments, they try to hide behind Competitive and "Balance" (both of which are antonymous to "Smash 4"), because the truth is that they have no counterargument. Deep down, everybody knows this truth, some simply try to hide it, and others, reject it, due to fear of rejection themselves.

This sounds preachy. It's like a Christian saying, "Deep down, everybody knows God is real. They just try to suppress this truth out of fear of damnation."

The prior Smash Bros. installments will always be superior to Smash 4, not because of graphics, or relevance, but because they are experiences.

Best joke I've heard all day.

Smash 4 is just a game.

So is SSBB and every other SSB game before it.

 

[Bob]

I think you all are missing the OP's point... Or rather, aligning perfectly with it;

Oftentimes when people hear these arguments, they try to hide behind Competitive and "Balance".

--

It also is an extremely popular game and the Wii U version is a major tourney game.

Pretty hard to when it's still the major fighting game of the Wii U

I like Smash 4's core mechanics better than Brawl's and maybe better then Melee (granted, I haven't played much Melee myself, but from a spectator's point of view)

No more chain-grabs. Did anybody actually like these?

Much less Ledge-stalling (with invincibility only the first grab)

Overall much more balance between the characters. There are obvious top tiers and obvious bottom tiers, but the list of "viable" characters is leagues above both Brawl and Melee.

Just enough combo-potential to make it interesting to watch, but there is also a good amount of the game played in neutral. In my opinion, Brawl had not nearly enough combos (excluding the chain-grabs)

No. I do not mean that at all.

In melee, the only characters viable enough to win a major are:
Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Puff, Peach. 6 out of 25

Brawl, it was MetaKnight, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Marth, Snake, and Maybe Falco. 6 out of 37 (counting Samus and zero suit as separate characters, because you can't switch mid-match)

Smash 4, so far, we have seen wins from: diddy Kong, Bayonetta, Cloud, Villager, Fox, MewTwo, Zero Suit, Meta Knight, Rosalina, Sonic, Mario, Greninja, Ryu, and many others that I am probably forgetting.

13 out of 58,

You do the math.

Except Brawl had significantly less balance and less viable characters. So did Melee. Smash 64 had the most viable other than Smash 4 itself. With 12 characters, balance isn't as hard. With more, it's much harder, not easier. The reason for so much viability is due to them trying to make the game more balanced. That's why Sakurai wanted Bandai-Namco on the team, to help make his game better in more than one way, including balance.

origamiscienceguy
I don't know your definition of "major", but Wizzrobe's Captain Falcon won Low Tier City 5 in Texas just this weekend, albeit with no gods in attendance, but 319 other competitors. Your list of characters instead says who would theoretically easiest to win with, but characters like Luigi, Ice Climbers, and Captain Falcon have all demonstrated potential to win big tournaments of their own, having come close on some occasions.

~~~
P Phillip Stratler
Although the end result was a disappointment for many fans of the series who wanted something more competitive and possessing of a lot more quality of life features, tr4sh did some or a lot of things right. I won't get into the pros and cons of tr4sh right now, but it is ingenious to claim that "there is no substance to be found in it." A fairer criticism of tr4sh would be to acknowledge the few aspects of it that you enjoyed or that really possess merit and deserve some praise, and then get into the many points on which the game fails.

As to your core theory that the game was abandoned by and not attached to Sakurai, you do have points of proof, but so do others who have posted ITT claiming the opposite.

The very moment that your game gets criticized, all of you instantly start naming off competitive qualities and balance alterations. Not a single individual speaking in Smash 4's defense has given a solid retort to the claim that Smash 4 has no soul.

The closest I've seen are statements that the game is "fun", or "entertaining".

To give a more concise version of what I believe to be Phillip's argument; All of the prior Smash Bros. games felt like experiences, Smash 4 just feels like a product. When playing all of the older Smash Bros. games, there existed a feeling of passion and intimacy, while Smash 4 feels like a generic, streamlined, superfluous mobile-level app that exists solely to fill to 2014 Smash Bros. gap and make more money.

Even listen to the music; Melee's and Brawl's main themes were very soulful and deep, however Smash 4's theme just sounds like another typical "epic" theme. What happened to those natural, pleasant harmonies, or the passionate choirs singing in the background? Where's the awe-inspiring cutscenes or the feelings of enticement that were previously present in the days of old?

This is coming from someone who does play Smash 4, albeit only for Online and Mewtwo (the latter of which won't be staying a problem forever).

Ultimately, the conclusion is;

Smash 4 is entertaining, the older games were spectacular.

Update: I had a spoiler here, but it got modded out cuz censorship. To see it, scroll down to one of the saltymen's quotes.

 

[MercuryPenny]

eh.

the aesthetics of the previous smash games have NOT aged well in the slightest. 64 is blocky and blurry, melee has the plasticine and poorly-shaded style of the late 90s, brawl goes for detail on a very underpowered console (much like twilight princess did...how do people think that game looks now again?). 4 ditches all that in favor of a similar aesthetic choice to 64 - kinda goofy, and more inspired by the laid-back attitudes of typical nintendo fare.

the fact that it's on an hd console makes it look absolutely spectacular. it's vibrant, colorful, everything looks distinct and isn't the drab browns and greys of brawl, nor the ugly late 90s aesthetic of melee. it's like you're playing a saturday morning cartoon on crack.

and the main theme...it's not supposed to be this sweeping or beautiful choir and orchestra, it's supposed to fit the energy of a fight. the pvp was obviously a major focus of the game; balance patches effectively meant public beta testing for two years, and the aesthetic intensity of battles makes it clear that lots of effort was put into making it satisfying. the singleplayer modes are lackluster because they are nowhere near the main focus of the game - this is also why the vast majority of the cast is open from the start, and it takes about 2 hours to unlock the remainder. the FIGHTING is what's best about smash 4. getting friends together and playing some rounds of smash, hopping online and playing complete unknowns, going to tournaments and fighting your rival - pvp was placed over all other aspects of the game because that's what the longevity comes from in these games. brawl's subspace takes you a few days, then you walk away and move on to something else. you unlock everything in melee and then find something else to do. but what makes us come back to the games, and what makes them truly memorable, are the experiences you share with your friends and enemies.

THAT is the essence of smash 4. not in its singleplayer or unique aesthetic as the old games, balance, nor its "wow competitive"ness, but in what is shared between its players as it is played.

thats how i look at it anyway

 

[Nohbl]

Not a single individual speaking in Smash 4's defense has given a solid retort to the claim that Smash 4 has no soul.

And yet half of your post is using your "feelings" as evidence.

 

[Crystanium]

I think you all are missing the OP's point... Or rather, aligning perfectly with it;

Nah. It sounds like the OP prefers casual game play over competitive game play. SSBB is really indefensible. It's a fun game if you're a casual player and don't care about winning or losing.

The very moment that your game gets criticized, all of you instantly start naming off competitive qualities and balance alterations. Not a single individual speaking in Smash 4's defense has given a solid retort to the claim that Smash 4 has no soul.

Sm4sh doesn't have a soul for two reasons: 1. It's a game, not a living organism. 2. Souls don't exist.

To give a more concise version of what I believe to be Phillip's argument; All of the prior Smash Bros. games felt like experiences, Smash 4 just feels like a product.

Nope. Sm4sh is clearly not a product, according to the OP. It's a consequence.

When playing all of the older Smash Bros. games, there existed a feeling of passion and intimacy,

Personal, subjective experience. Anecdotal evidence isn't sufficient for why one game is better than another or why one game has a "soul" and the other doesn't. Funny, now that I think about it. I was pretty sure the OP said something about emotional attachment. So much for the objectivity that he touted.

while Smash 4 feels like a generic, streamlined, superfluous mobile-level app that exists solely to fill to 2014 Smash Bros. gap and make more money.

Congratulations. You just described marketing.

Even listen to the music; Melee's and Brawl's main themes were very soulful and deep,

So, the main theme is what makes the music great?

however Smash 4's theme just sounds like another typical "epic" theme. What happened to those natural, pleasant harmonies, or the passionate choirs singing in the background?

That choir stuff is overly used.

Where's the awe-inspiring cutscenes or the feelings of enticement that were previously present in the days of old?

That's a loaded question.

Smash 4 is entertaining, the older games were spectacular.

Personal opinion.

 

[HerbsnSpices910]

The very moment that your game gets criticized, all of you instantly start naming off competitive qualities and balance alterations. Not a single individual speaking in Smash 4's defense has given a solid retort to the claim that Smash 4 has no soul.

If you go back and read my posts again, I made references to graphics, music, character size etc. etc. There are plenty of other posts in this thread by other users who have done exactly the same thing. You are completely wrong about this.

The closest I've seen are statements that the game is "fun", or "entertaining".

Wrong. See above.

To give a more concise version of what I believe to be Phillip's argument; All of the prior Smash Bros. games felt like experiences, Smash 4 just feels like a product. When playing all of the older Smash Bros. games, there existed a feeling of passion and intimacy, while Smash 4 feels like a generic, streamlined, superfluous mobile-level app that exists solely to fill to 2014 Smash Bros. gap and make more money.

We're sorry you feel that way. Like I said in my previous post, you and OP probably wouldn't feel this way if you didn't keep looking back at whatever Smash used to be. I am not disputing that Smash 4 may be the worst in the series. What I am disputing is that Smash 4 is an empty experience. It's not. Treat it as its own game as opposed to comparing it to the other games in the series.

Even listen to the music; Melee's and Brawl's main themes were very soulful and deep, however Smash 4's theme just sounds like another typical "epic" theme. What happened to those natural, pleasant harmonies, or the passionate choirs singing in the background? Where's the awe-inspiring cutscenes or the feelings of enticement that were previously present in the days of old?

Completely disagree with this. I actually have qualifications in Music and Music Technology, and the phrase "natural, pleasant harmonies" is just a throwaway phrase you're using to try and prove your point. All of the main themes use either functional harmony (Melee, Brawl, SSB4 and Smash 64 intro) or non-functional/non-diatonic harmony (Smash 64 menu). Your point as a whole here is a completely subjective point and honestly, I feel that both Brawl and Smash 4 have the generic epic theme, if you want to call it that. I personally prefer Melee's orchestral themes and Smash 64's abstract, somewhat temperamental OST.

This is coming from someone who does play Smash 4, albeit only for Online and Mewtwo (the latter of which won't be staying a problem forever).

There's a surprise.

Ultimately, the conclusion is;

Smash 4 is entertaining, the older games were spectacular.

However true this may or may not be, this does not mean that Smash 4 is an empty experience or lacking in any soul, which is exactly what the OP is saying, and exactly what many of us are disputing.

Is Smash 4 an empty experience? Yes. Most definitely.

For you maybe. For most, no.

<content redacted>

At least I'm not insecure enough to hide my age.