Online: The real reason Sakurai made Brawl so different

[Unknownlight]

Don't attack me if this has been said before (I'm too lazy to read through the comments) but I seem to remember you talking about this in one of the SMYN episodes (E for Brawl, I think).

I agreed with it then and I agree with it now.

 

[Zankoku]

A month or so back I made the theory that the buffer system was coded because it would be able to handle inputs online without losing any inputs on either side. Nobody agreed with me.

Good to know that someone else making the theory that a whole bunch of other things were done because of online is widely agreed with. -_-

 

[goodoldganon]

^^^^^

You scare us Ankoku. I mean Panda has an avatar with an adorable rolling panda and you have some maniacal guy and a bloody knife with a sig.

 

[ShengNu]

i agree with you on this entirely.

 

[NJzFinest]

SamuraiPanda, Mario Kart Double Dash and DS where the only two that had snaking

 

[swim2007]

In my opinion it seems that Sakurai stuck too stubbornly to the smash tradition of a bunch of trophies and fun minigames such as all the special brawl options. It seems that the actual fighting mechanics were put on the back-burner. After he was done with all the frills, then the fighting system was addressed. The developers took melee's base fighting scheme, and made it more "noob friendly". The speed was lowered, combos were nurfed, cheaper techniques such as chaingrabs were created, and the game was overall reduced to an easier level of play. This was all covered up by the Havoc physics system that pretty much told us: this is how smash is meant to be played. The developers tried to use the realism spin to divert our attention away from how the game is actually played and the true changes that were made.

Now I do not believe that this is all Sakurai's fault. As Panda has said, the online system probably played a big role. The melee system would never work on the laggy WIFI. Also the top Nintendo executives were probably breathing down Sakurai's neck with their new marketing approach of: everyone can win and do good, pure skill or age doesnt matter as much anymore since the Wii is so revolutionary. This "anyone can compete" concept that the top dogs at Nintendo have is, I believe, the reason why Brawl was changed so much.

 

[Cooper736]

In my opinion it seems that Sakurai stuck too stubbornly to the smash tradition of a bunch of trophies and fun minigames such as all the special brawl options. It seems that the actual fighting mechanics were put on the back-burner.

I have to agree with this. What are there now, 544 trophies? Not to mention all the stickers, which are only good for Subspace. And wasn't the translation stuff the reason that Brawl took an extra three months to come out in the US? Sakurai may have wanted the game to become more casual-friendly, but to have so many frills is pushing it to the extreme. Imagine if the memory from those trophies was put into a faster Wi-Fi or more techniques....

 

[SAMaine]

Real competitive fighting game players don't use online. No matter what fighting game it is, it will have enough lag online to be unplayable to any person who plays competitively. Even Virtua Fighter 5 for Xbox 360 suffers from too much button lag to be playable for competitive tournaments using its online.

Franchises like Super Smash Bros and Mario Kart have two fanbases... the competitive fans and the casual fans. However, the competitive fans tend to ruin it for the casual fans once online is involved. Just look at Mario Kart DS. It was made much like previous Mario Karts, and the competitive fans loved to snake, and thus ruined it for the casuals.

You seriously don't think that if Brawl had Wavedashing, that there WOULDN'T be complaints about online play? There would be topics about how Wavedashing ruined online because everyone is doing it. If you cater to the fanboys, you lose most of your casual fanbase, while the fanboys will almost always complain that you didn't do it right. What Nintendo has figured out is that you should cater to the casual fanbase because the fanboys will buy your game anyway. That's in fact the whole point of the Wii.

I want everyone who has played Brawl and hated it to think about this... If Super Smash Bros. 4 actually was annouced right now, are you willing to wait to hear about SSB4 before shelling out money for it? A fan should be willing to stop being a fan if they start hating the work. I myself am a fan of Sonic the Hedgehog, but I've stopped buying console games after Sonic Heroes, because I am not a fan of messy glitchfests. However, I do still like the fact that Sonic is in Brawl, though not because I've ever really wanted a Mario vs. Sonic showdown. I owned both a Sega Genesis and a Super Nintendo during the 16-bit era, and liked both Mario and Sonic. No, I actually like the fact that he is the Sonic I remember.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Don't attack me if this has been said before (I'm too lazy to read through the comments) but I seem to remember you talking about this in one of the SMYN episodes (E for Brawl, I think).

I agreed with it then and I agree with it now.

Yeah, I think I've mentioned this a few times on SMYN. Maybe even before the game came out. Like I said in the OP, I've had this theory for a long time. I'm talking like since the game came out I've thought this way.

A month or so back I made the theory that the buffer system was coded because it would be able to handle inputs online without losing any inputs on either side. Nobody agreed with me.

Good to know that someone else making the theory that a whole bunch of other things were done because of online is widely agreed with. -_-

Thats too in-depth for people to process. Most people don't even know what buffering even means. Btw, I completely agree with you on that. It was going to be one of the points but I got bored at #4 ^_^''

SamuraiPanda, Mario Kart Double Dash and DS where the only two that had snaking

Really? I could've sworn 64 had it too... Meh, I'm not much of a Mario Kart guy anyways, thats why I said I wasn't sure =P

In my opinion it seems that Sakurai stuck too stubbornly to the smash tradition of a bunch of trophies and fun minigames such as all the special brawl options.

I disagree. Sakurai had an immensely large development team. How many people do you think it takes to code for the multiplayer options? I'm sure that the people who worked on the trophies and what not were not required for the other aspects of the game.



By the way, one more interesting thing people probably haven't thought of yet. The next Smash, if there will be one, will be very similar to Brawl. Its nearly impossible to make a fast fighting game go online without suffering so much that its almost pointless to even play. Most fighting games require ridiculously fast inputs, split-second timing, and incredibly accurate movements. The reason the fighting genre is having a tough time with the new generation is because something that should be a given for a game of its type, which is online play, is just not very feasible with the internets we have now. Unless Nintendo magically gets better than every other company at online before the next Smash is released, to the extent of making the fighting genre viable over the internet, then that means the people looking for SSB4 to be more like Melee will probably be dissapointed in the end again.

Of course, thats just assuming that we don't discover anything in Brawl or in this theoretical SSB4 that could change the way we play the game.

 

[Cookiez]

Online...

Aside from that, I most definantly agree with your statement about fighting games in this current generation. However, I know that there is software still in its Alpha-phase which would allow for viable play and almost lagless interaction...

Ill see if i can dig up the link >.<

 

[Dojo]

By the way, one more interesting thing people probably haven't thought of yet. The next Smash, if there will be one, will be very similar to Brawl. Its nearly impossible to make a fast fighting game go online without suffering so much that its almost pointless to even play. Most fighting games require ridiculously fast inputs, split-second timing, and incredibly accurate movements. The reason the fighting genre is having a tough time with the new generation is because something that should be a given for a game of its type, which is online play, is just not very feasible with the internets we have now. Unless Nintendo magically gets better than every other company at online before the next Smash is released, to the extent of making the fighting genre viable over the internet, then that means the people looking for SSB4 to be more like Melee will probably be dissapointed in the end again.

Of course, thats just assuming that we don't discover anything in Brawl or in this theoretical SSB4 that could change the way we play the game.

Haha. Games been out for about a third of a year and there's slight talk of a next smash. I dont understand it's theoretical and not a major part (or any part at all) of this discussion i just find it funny. Shouldn't even be heard of. xD

 

[fkacyan]

Really? I could've sworn 64 had it too... Meh, I'm not much of a Mario Kart guy anyways, thats why I said I wasn't sure =P

Snaking is the practice of powersliding contstantly to rack up the miniboosts you get for powersliding. MKDD and MKDS were the ones to have it, and they quickly realized that it required skill and thus would alienate the casual masses.

God, Nintendo looks more hopelessly casual to me every day.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Aside from that, I most definantly agree with your statement about fighting games in this current generation. However, I know that there is software still in its Alpha-phase which would allow for viable play and almost lagless interaction...

Ill see if i can dig up the link >.<

If I remember correctly, its called Kaillera, right? I probably spelled that completely wrong, but I'm aware of that project underway to create the most lag-free online experience possible for fighting games. I think I heard it was actually quite good already.

Snaking is the practice of powersliding contstantly to rack up the miniboosts you get for powersliding. MKDD and MKDS were the ones to have it, and they quickly realized that it required skill and thus would alienate the casual masses.

God, Nintendo looks more hopelessly casual to me every day.

Yeah, they really are getting more casual, which is a scary thought. But what I don't get is why they can't somehow implement a "happy fun care-free" ranking system for their games. Casuals don't like playing competitives. And competitives don't like playing casuals. In order to make an online game that appeals to both markets, implement some sort of ranking system (it could even be hidden) to circumvent that kind of problem from happening. Nintendo is just plain stupid when it comes to these kinds of things.

 

[BigRick]

It's probably GGPO.

http://ggpo.net/blog/

 

[Kado]

If they really designed this game for online play then it would have... well... better online play =.=;

 

[Jam Stunna]

If Brawl was really made the way it was in order to implement online play, then they failed horribly. The Wii's online is a joke, and I'm pretty sure even Sakurai knew it. I don't think he designed a game from the ground up to take advantage of such a terrible online system.

After reading this thread and Gimpyfish's thread, it seems more likely that Brawl is the way it is because of off-line considerations (Sakurai not being very competitive himself, brining in new players, etc.). Even the people who are new to Smash consistently complain about Wi-Fi. Brawl is the way it is because that's the way Sakurai wanted it, not because of the technical limitations of the Wii and Wi-Fi.

 

[Phaazoid]

personally, i believe brawl was made this way for the whole 'casual' gamers instead of making like this for online. the one main reason i still have this point of view is because of the lack of online options. if they had really catered this game for online mode, it would have had a lot more, like leaderboards, rankings, stuff like that. but becuase they are catering towards the casual player, who would look bad if he had a ranking, they left that stuff out. plus the only type of with anyone online mode has absolutely no communication between players, and it's always four players. even if four people don't connect, they add computers. so maybe it was a mixture of both, but the whole catering towards casuals had a lot of impact. it's ironic that the same genius who created the fighting system that we know and love is the same idiot that keeps time mode as standard and chose the roster before sending out the polls... i almost hope that for smash 4 they get someone else to do it, and make sure he isn't aloud to make a one player mode, just tons of characters and stages. because that's where the real replay value is. just gotta hope he doesn't ruin the game...

 

[ZeldaSmasher]

After reading all that, it actually makes a lot of sense.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

All of what you (Panda) said i must agree with.

Nintendo has to get it's act together though and build their next console accordingly. If you look at Halo, a lot of the people who play online are competitive. Online helped spread of the word "competition." The next console needs better graphics (obvious one), more memory, faster processor and whatnot. Or else Nintendo will be stuck with PS2 graphics and speed for the rest of life.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Giving up online is not fair for a lot of people, although it sounds nice for a lot of competitive people, a lot of people can't drive, or have nobody good at Smash around them. The only way I get a challenge is if I play online.

Yeah it has lag, but that was to be expected, there's no surprises there.

I can't get to tournaments, online is my only way of connecting to the rest of the world, yeah it's not perfect, but atleast it's online.

EDIT:

Not directed at SamuraiPanda btw, I actually agree with most of his post.

*sigh* I never really was able to make the tournament scene, so I envy all of you who got to experience that. But am I the only person who actually enjoys the online component of Brawl? I finally get to play against semi-competent human competition (My human friends aren't hardcore gamers like me) and it's just so fast paced and zany that I love it. I loved getting technical on my friends in Melee because they had no idea how to counter it and watching them glare and mutter curses under their breath was fun, but I find the element of randomness in Brawl to be even more entertaining. Some of my best replays come from watching others rack up insane kills, not me. Sorry if this isn't what this topic is about, I just felt like sharing.:\

These three posts reflect my thoughts and experiences almost to a T. Most of my friends stopped playing Melee on a regular basis in 2003 and, because of where I live, worthwhile tournaments almost never happened.

Also, regarding Mario Kart DS, I do agree that the online was ruined by snaking. I knew how to snake and I played online a lot for three months but it stops being fun when all the races you are in are either A) laughably easy or B) retardedly hard. There was also the problem of people disconnecting whenever they were about to lose. Didn't Metroid Prime Hunters experience the same problem?

 

[C.Olimar788]

Wow. Excellent post. It... all makes sense now.

Seriously. Everyone needs to read this. Everyone. That way maybe they won't complain so much because, in essence, it's all the community's fault for wanting online so bad. And Nintendo's for sucking at said online, but meh...

Let's just hope that Nintendo makes better online (a LOT better) next generation. And that we can then get the online that Sakurai wanted with less lag and voice chat and such. Let's hope.

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Very nice post. I also feel that making the game support four different controls led to Brawl's gameplay being the way it is.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Seriously. Everyone needs to read this. Everyone. That way maybe they won't complain so much because, in essence, it's all the community's fault for wanting online so bad.

How is it ever the consumer's fault for demanding what has become a standard service? If anything, we're foolish for settling for such a half-***** service.

 

[arrowhead]

the reason brawl is less deep than melee shouldn't be because of online play. they could have developed online play so noobs looking for random fun don't bump into players trying to play competitively. a ranking system or different online rooms would have solved that problem. instead, he unnecessarily dumbed down the game with low hitstun and tripping

 

[Fatmanonice]

the reason brawl is less deep than melee shouldn't be because of online play. they could have developed online play so noobs looking for random fun don't bump into players trying to play competitively. a ranking system or different online rooms would have solved that problem. instead, he unnecessarily dumbed down the game with low hitstun and tripping

Keep in mind that we're talking about Nintendo's wifi service. You're neglecting that.

 

[Tom]

@Panda

... dude, go study. <3 <3 <3

 

[SamuraiPanda]

WOW Tom. You posted that at the exact minute that I clicked the topic. Nice timing.

And fine, I'll go study :/

 

[SAMaine]

People complain about the whole friends codes thing, but Nintendo was only able to DO Friend Codes from a logical standpoint.

If Wii had the same online feature set that Xbox 360 and PS3, you can bet it would appear in news reports alongside 'sexual predator.' Then there is the language in Voice Chat. Nintendo has a family-friendly image, which is currently helping it with the Wii and DS... If concerned parents saw and heard stuff like that, sales would drop through the floor.

 

[arrowhead]

Keep in mind that we're talking about Nintendo's wifi service. You're neglecting that.

oh, i didn't know nintendo wifi is really that limited

but like many others have said, i'd prefer a better quality game with no online mode. brawl just makes me cry inside

 

[Mr.Victory07]

I would not have given up online for anything
And I guess this is true, but this is also due to accomodate casuals

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

Samurai Panda is now my favorite user. Long live the panda.

SamuraiPanda - You rock.

I wish you weren't right, Panda...

I have never thought of it that way before. It was a very good and enlightening read. Thanks Panda.

Makes sense, thanks for the new perspective Panda.

i agree with you on this entirely.

Wow. Excellent post. It... all makes sense now.
Seriously. Everyone needs to read this. Everyone.

Very nice post.

There's no such thing as too much love. =]


As stated numberous times, Brawl was built from the ground up, Wifi being one of the only ground rules/additions (can't find a better word in description). With Melee turning out the way it had, Sakurai was determined to create the game that was his original intent, a party game. He most likely knew that Brawl fans would play on Wifi quite often, so the quality needed to be there. Using the Wifi system it has, there are no rankings, no records, nothing to seperate the competative players from the rest. As we know, Sakurai tried his hardest to cader the game to a more casual audience, "so everyone feels like their a winnner" (everyone remembers this from the Iwata interview).

Time could have also impacted the type of Wifi that was implamented in Brawl. Though given a little under 3 years to complete, time was always a factor. Indefinably, there were highly questioned and almost unnecessary add-ons, Masterpieces, Chronicle, Mulit-Man Brawl on Wifi (seriously, who has done that?) and possibly Home-Run contest on Wifi (50-50 for myself). They could have used that time to expand on Wifi or put more time/effor into the SubS*** Emissary.

Wifi was one of the (if not the most) requested aspects of Brawl, that, and the roster, some may argue that both were screwed up. =/

 

[smashbro29]

This still doesn't explain the underwhelming online options and those stupid friend codes

 

[Http]

This should be required reading for anybody wanting to take part in the Melee vs. Brawl debate.

 

[iph03n1xi]

Wow, never really thought about it like that...

Too bad both Brawl and Brawl online sucks...

 

[Levitas]

Online play is why there's a buffer system for controls now. Think about how much worse online would be if when you tapped a and it lagged, nothing happened after the lag ended.

Edit: I still dislike online play.

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

This still doesn't explain the underwhelming online options and those stupid friend codes

It is so true that more options for Wifi should have been implamented. Sakurai not only wanted to make the game more casual, but make the game more 'safe', in a way. This sort of explains why there are no names, no mics, a small means of communication. He must be looking at a very young/casual audience, it greatly influenced Wifi. (not to mention the lousey functions that were installed, such as Mulit-Man Brawl, Home-Run Contest, and a voting system on items/stages on Basic Brawl)

 

[Crizthakidd]

i dont get them. if im beat so badly like sakurai is everyday by his mom for being so bad at smash, id train, find out and u know practice to get better. being rnak 10,000 would only encourage me to get better.

all the pple who made brawl are emo! lol they think they can make a rated T game for kids with hyper sensative feelings . notice how the characters clap when they loose. wtf i want hardcore fights and fun duels like in melee. looked so fluid and fun. if they added things to the actualy gameplay the vs mode, instead of taking things away to make random kids online feel better then thats just dumb.

 

[Tofu Beast]

Your movie will kick *** !

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

Online play is why there's a buffer system for controls now. Think about how much worse online would be if when you tapped a and it lagged, nothing happened after the lag ended.

Yeah, there's always controvercy with the buffer system, just like with the melee system.

Direction Nintendo is going towards gameplay = phAIL (as if it wasn't obvious)

 

[GreenKirby]

This makes whole a lot of sense. Even some people before said that due to the 'button mashing' (for lack of better term I can think of) L-canceling and wavedashing, they weren't surprised when it was removed.

Off topic: How's your movie coming along, SamuraiPanda? Are you excited? Nervous? lol :D