Omni Presents: Three Reasons Why You Should Pick A Top Tier

[Andromear]

Player skill is more important then what tier a chacter is in. If tiers where what decided who won everyone would lose to

 

[-Nebula-]

Great job ignoring half of what I said and demonstrating that you have little knowledge of your own game.

Even those characters still need to play extremely defensively before they can actually do anything. The main problem people have with Smash 4 is that the games are constantly being reset to a neutral position leaving very little room for anything interesting to happen. In Smash 4 combos will rarely exceed 4 hits before you have a neutral reset and keeping an advantageous position as a character that isn't heavily defensive like Rosalina doesn't happen.

Except the game is not hype, many of the complaints levied against Brawl have also been levied against Smash 4, such complaints include but are not limited to: the floatiness of the physics making games extremely slow, having a nearly non existent combo game, and making bait and punish before neutral reset the only viable way to reliably win. While combos do exist in Smash 4, as previously stated they rarely exceed 4 hits and with a few exceptions it's rarely a big deal when you are on the receiving end of one. By comparison in Melee, if you lose the neutral, odds are you're taking at least 70% and if your DI is poor you're dying outright.

I don't know why you're using Pac-Man as an example. The metagame should not be revolving around one character, a metagame that is centralized around a single character is indicative of poor game balance. Just because Pac-Man has room for growth does not mean the meta as a whole does. This is also true for Melee, the only character that hasn't been mostly figured out is Fox, although he is fairly close to it, despite this the metagame for Melee at this point is fairly stable and it's very unlikely that we'll see any huge changes anymore. Again, given Sakurai's disdain for the competitive community it's extremely unlikely that anything of significance will be found that propels Smash 4 to Melee levels of popularity. The main thing keeping it alive right now is the "new and shiny" factor, once that wears off, if nothing has come up that makes it a worthy title in the eyes of the FGC it will die off the sme way Brawl has.

Great job missing the point of my response and resorting to sarcastic remarks.

They don't need to play "extremely defensively", they just have to be smart. Melee is all about pulling off combos, while Smash 4 is about strategy, and that's what people like you fail to understand. If you think making one mistake and losing for it is hype, you obviously don't have the same appreciation for adaptation that I do. In Smash 4, you make a mistake and learn from it, figuring out your opponent as you play, and if you're good enough, overcoming even the toughest of challenges. That's hype.

As for Pac-Man, you completely missed the point and put a bunch of words in my mouth.

"The metagame should not be revolving around one character, a metagame that is centralized around a single character is indicative of poor game balance."

You do realize how poorly balanced Melee is, right? You really shot yourself in the foot with that remark. Putting that aside, though, I brought up Pac-Man because he is just one example of how much more this game has to it than we've discovered. New techniques are constantly being found for him. It's astounding how much creativity you can have with him, and the same goes for other characters as well. I'm sorry, but it's pretty hard to say that there's more to Melee than Smash 4. Lastly, if Sakurai had that much disdain for the competitive community, do you really think there would be so many balance patches? Come on now.

 

[YoHeKing]

hmmm....

most of the video, I disagree with, namely cause the first two points are debatable.
1) what defines the best style for a player is exclusive to each, there are some folks who just aren't suited for the highest tiers.
2) sure, Mirror matches are easily the best way to determine who's better with a character... but if people are going to use someone else and blame them for their loss, they're not worth your time, No Johns.
3) THIS point, I do agree with, namely from experience. I've found myself much better able to handle matchups in Sm4sh because I learned the basics of each fighter. I can't say the same for Melee, cause I can't keep up, but this can apply to PM as well.

Mirror matches are no way to determine whos better... Competitive smash 101!

 

[Delta Chae]

Great job missing the point of my response and resorting to sarcastic remarks.

They don't need to play "extremely defensively", they just have to be smart. Melee is all about pulling off combos, while Smash 4 is about strategy, and that's what people like you fail to understand. If you think making one mistake and losing for it is hype, you obviously don't have the same appreciation for adaptation that I do. In Smash 4, you make a mistake and learn from it, figuring out your opponent as you play, and if you're good enough, overcoming even the toughest of challenges. That's hype.

As for Pac-Man, you completely missed the point and put a bunch of words in my mouth.

"The metagame should not be revolving around one character, a metagame that is centralized around a single character is indicative of poor game balance."

You do realize how poorly balanced Melee is, right? You really shot yourself in the foot with that remark. Putting that aside, though, I brought up Pac-Man because he is just one example of how much more this game has to it than we've discovered. New techniques are constantly being found for him. It's astounding how much creativity you can have with him, and the same goes for other characters as well. I'm sorry, but it's pretty hard to say that there's more to Melee than Smash 4. Lastly, if Sakurai had that much disdain for the competitive community, do you really think there would be so many balance patches? Come on now.

You're only proving my point further.

You clearly don't know what defensive play is. Defensive play in the context of Smash Bros. is playing cat and mouse with the opponent then punishing them when they mess up by stringing together 3 or 4 hits before resetting the game to neutral. That's what Smash 4 is and Brawl to an even greater degree.

Implying that there is no strategy to Melee? People rarely lose for a single mistake unless their DI is terrible. What a single mistake WILL do in Melee is put you at a serious disadvantage which is how it should be. Melee players do figure each-other out as they play, that's why the first stock of each game is typically much longer than any other stock, because the players are figuring out each-others habits and how they can exploit them.

Oh really? Then what so called "advancements" have occurred in the metagame in the past few months that had nothing to do with patches?

Does Melee's metagame revolve around one character? No, you are demonstrating once again that you have no idea what you are talking about. Fox is the most used character in Melee, yes, but the metagame is far from centralized around Fox.Two of the top 5 players don't even use Fox in any capacity and one uses Fox only because he uses every single one of the top 8 characters at some point. Melee's case is not unusual for a competitive fighting game title, the fact that almost 1/3 of the cast is tournament viable is pretty impressive when you look at some other titles. Even then there's also 5 other characters you can potentially compete with in a tournament (Technically 6 but there's no reason to pick Mario over Dr. Mario).

You really are that ignorant aren't you? If Sakurai cared about the competitive community he'd be balancing his game based on tournament results. No, he makes balance patches based on online standings and complaints from the casual fanbase, he has demonstrated on numerous occasions that he does not like the competitive community and even said that someone who wants to play a serious fighting game should not play Smash 4. Related to the first point: major patches should only happening if a character is demonstrated to be such an overwhelming force to the point that you HAVE to use them to be successful (Eg, if out of the top 8 in a major tournament all of the players were using the same character).

 

[YoHeKing]

Whats the point of all this arguing when 80% of it has nothing to do with the video.

 

[HanZee]

GOSH OMNI WHAT'S WRONG WITH BEING YAMCHA
I'D LOVE TO BE YAMCHA

 

[Rboy]

Tiers are kind of relative, aren't they? I believe that a tier list is basically a popular opinion list. A tier list is a series of educated preferences backed up by countless hours (and sometimes years) of research, so it is definitely important to take them into consideration. However, it is also important to note that tier lists are somewhat self-fulfilling. A top tier character gets more attention than a low tier character, so the top tier character becomes more developed. I think that the development of low tier characters is crucial to the advancement of the meta game because it allows each character to reach its potential, much like playing a top tier character could help you reach your potential in the current meta game. There is a question that you have to ask yourself when thinking about tiers: do I want to advance myself, or do I want to advance the game as a whole?

 

[Rboy]

You can also think of using low tiers kind of like weight training. If you can perform well with a lot of resistance (using a low tier), then when the resistance is removed (switching to a top tier), you will have grown and become a stronger player.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

well i do still think puff has the tools to do well in tourneys because she has some of the best aerials in the game (frame 3 nair, wall of pain fair, bair that kills at 100 depending on char, uair that sets up into rest, etc), great options to counter spot dodging and rolls, a move that will kill most top tiers at 60+, and fantastic aerial mobility. those were the original reasons i thought she was top tier, but i didn't think that her dying so early would be such an issue but it did become one. and i used to duo main puff and sheik so i do know sheik but i dont think i could go back because i don't think i could play the neutral with top tiers the way i do with puff. puff is a really fun to play character, and personally i think she makes you learn the neutral the hardest. playing her makes you value every punish you get and makes you respect every hit your opponent does because you could easily die to a forward smash at 70. just my 2 cents though and thank you for being respectful

I didn't really have a reason to be disrespectful. I made my original post out of curiosity moreso than an omg how dare you people main lowtiers. You answered my questions, that exactly what I wanted. Helpful people are hard to disrespect. (or at least disrespecting them would make me an asshole)

"What do YOU know about my dreams, Gaston?"

I've caused upsets at every tournament I've been to.

That's very nice to hear harold. The way you were defending your low tier pick made it sound like you just wanted some cheesy wins against bads. (or as some like to call it the struggle) Hence I tried convincing you to dream bigger cause the struggle is far more real at the higher end of the tournament where lowtiers usually are already weeded out due to the flaws in their characters.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

double post mb

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Maybe someone should make a video:"3 Reasons You Shouldn't Pick A Top Tier" to counteract this?

If our character choices just follow the crowd, the metagame will very quickly stagnate.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

Maybe someone should make a video:"3 Reasons You Shouldn't Pick A Top Tier" to counteract this?

If our character choices just follow the crowd, the metagame will very quickly stagnate.

The metagame will only stagnate if there isn't enough to keep it fresh in said top tiers and if said top tiers really do stagnate so easily said top tiers won't lose to any lowtiers due to how is it is to master them.

 

[-Nebula-]

You're only proving my point further.

You clearly don't know what defensive play is. Defensive play in the context of Smash Bros. is playing cat and mouse with the opponent then punishing them when they mess up by stringing together 3 or 4 hits before resetting the game to neutral. That's what Smash 4 is and Brawl to an even greater degree.

Implying that there is no strategy to Melee? People rarely lose for a single mistake unless their DI is terrible. What a single mistake WILL do in Melee is put you at a serious disadvantage which is how it should be. Melee players do figure each-other out as they play, that's why the first stock of each game is typically much longer than any other stock, because the players are figuring out each-others habits and how they can exploit them.

Oh really? Then what so called "advancements" have occurred in the metagame in the past few months that had nothing to do with patches?

Does Melee's metagame revolve around one character? No, you are demonstrating once again that you have no idea what you are talking about. Fox is the most used character in Melee, yes, but the metagame is far from centralized around Fox.Two of the top 5 players don't even use Fox in any capacity and one uses Fox only because he uses every single one of the top 8 characters at some point. Melee's case is not unusual for a competitive fighting game title, the fact that almost 1/3 of the cast is tournament viable is pretty impressive when you look at some other titles. Even then there's also 5 other characters you can potentially compete with in a tournament (Technically 6 but there's no reason to pick Mario over Dr. Mario).

You really are that ignorant aren't you? If Sakurai cared about the competitive community he'd be balancing his game based on tournament results. No, he makes balance patches based on online standings and complaints from the casual fanbase, he has demonstrated on numerous occasions that he does not like the competitive community and even said that someone who wants to play a serious fighting game should not play Smash 4. Related to the first point: major patches should only happening if a character is demonstrated to be such an overwhelming force to the point that you HAVE to use them to be successful (Eg, if out of the top 8 in a major tournament all of the players were using the same character).

Wall of text...

Lol, I hope you realize how bad you're making yourself look. Half of your responses completely replaced my point with something easier for you to answer. If you insist on continuing this, PM me instead.

I will give you a few quick responses though in case you decide not to. There's a difference between defensive play and responsive controls, you'd do well to remember that. The fact that I can actually dodge when I want to doesn't make the game less competitive. And if you honestly think Melee players can figure their opponent out in one stock and then wreck them because of some huge weakness they find you're deluding yourself. It takes a lot longer than a stock to figure someone out. As for metagame development, if you PM me I have about a hundred videos I can link you if you want. No, I'm really not "that ignorant", but I appreciate your attempt at an insult. I'm terribly offended. Finally, Sakurai does patch based on tournament results. Obviously someone didn't see Diddy's rankings pre-patch...

If you respond here again I will ignore it, because the rest of these people don't need to see another (really stupid) argument.

 

[Delta Chae]

Wall of text...

Lol, I hope you realize how bad you're making yourself look. Half of your responses completely replaced my point with something easier for you to answer. If you insist on continuing this, PM me instead.

I will give you a few quick responses though in case you decide not to. There's a difference between defensive play and responsive controls, you'd do well to remember that. The fact that I can actually dodge when I want to doesn't make the game less competitive. And if you honestly think Melee players can figure their opponent out in one stock and then wreck them because of some huge weakness they find you're deluding yourself. It takes a lot longer than a stock to figure someone out. As for metagame development, if you PM me I have about a hundred videos I can link you if you want. No, I'm really not "that ignorant", but I appreciate your attempt at an insult. I'm terribly offended. Finally, Sakurai does patch based on tournament results. Obviously someone didn't see Diddy's rankings pre-patch...

If you respond here again I will ignore it, because the rest of these people don't need to see another (really stupid) argument.

What the hell are you saying? Defensive play and responsive controls have nothing to do with each other, both Melee and Smash 4 have responsive controls, Melee simply has longer shield drop time which prevents people from doing nothing but rolling back and forth. Shields in Melee are not obscenely powerful like in Smash 4, they still block attacks but you can and will be punished for overusing them. Not the case in Smash 4 where there is hardly any shield stun and it rengerates ridiculously fast.

It's incredibly ironic that you're doing the exact same thing you're accusing me of doing. I never said Melee players could figure each other out in one stock just that it's when the majority of information is obtained by each player that will dictate flow of the match.

Sakurai did not nerf Diddy Kong because of his tournament results, he nerfed him because CASUAL players were complaining about him. As hard as this might be for you to believe, yes, the majority of complaints about Diddy Kong were coming from casual players. Sakurai has stated outright that he designs balance patches around online rankings and not tournament results, the fact that you refuse to believe this is your problem not mine.

You said you won't respond to this, that's not my problem. Not once have you disproven anything I've said, you've been doing the equivalent of saying " you're wrong because I said so".

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I love reading some of these "thi s video sucks!!!!!!!!" In a squeaker voice. It totally fits.

 

[GroundZero996]

I'm not a fan of all this "top tier" talk while the game is so young and still receiving balance patches. Pick who you want to pick based on whatever criteria you feel like using. You're more likely to get good with a character you mesh with than a character that's been forced down your throat because he's "top tier".

 

[JohnViolet_]

I won't drop Kirby, not now, not tomorrow, not on my sleep.

I understood if this was Brawl or Melee (after all, the characters have a giant gap on their balance), but now, on Smash 4 (let's admit, every character is viable now), it's not the time to drop our mains. Also, we will keep maining our character if we want it to rise and shine (Armada did it with Peach, Mango did it with Jiggly, aMSa is doing it, but the number of Yoshi mains is not growing).
TL;DR: We should not give up our mains now that they are good (or, at least, more on par with the others)

Edit: View attachment 60781Just pointing this out, lol

Kirbys pretty fast

 

[S4C]

The video is for those who want to win and get better. I see you aren't either. I don't say "oh well" when I lose. I ask myself why I lost and what I can do to improve. Losing is essential.

Yeah, I learned through my time playing that I improve most by going through phases of saying "oh well" and phases of being so angry and looking for every possible way I messed up in a match. but since I stopped being so competitive I got dramatically better, unpredictable, frustrating my opponent by ******** movements. But everyone is different. My rival improves by watching replays and I get better by not thinking. Maybe your learning way is by a methodical analysis, while mine is just having fun and letting loose. Maybe readers on here can try both methods and see what fits them and helps them the most. but I will say, I learned ALOT by losing. haha

 

[Infinite901]

Melee has seen the same matchups for over a decade and no one cries. Either this is a Smash 4 issue or people just need to grow up.

Honestly I believe it is a bit of a Smash 4 issue. Melee has survived with ~8 characters because of all the immense depth that goes into the game and each character. Smash 4 lacks the deep gameplay of Melee, so in a way we sort fo need to take a different approach to make it interesting. Melee can do just fine with Fox dittos everywhere because there are much deeper aspects of play that Smash 4 lacks. For Smash 4 to stay interesting, I believe it needs to take less of a gameplay approach to depth and more in the fact that there are a lot more characters, leading to rewarding MU knowledge. Side not, it's also why I think Smash 4 will die if customs stay banned. Just my thoughts.

 

[SuperSwagBros]

Yeah, I learned through my time playing that I improve most by going through phases of saying "oh well" and phases of being so angry and looking for every possible way I messed up in a match. but since I stopped being so competitive I got dramatically better, unpredictable, frustrating my opponent by ******** movements. But everyone is different. My rival improves by watching replays and I get better by not thinking. Maybe your learning way is by a methodical analysis, while mine is just having fun and letting loose. Maybe readers on here can try both methods and see what fits them and helps them the most. but I will say, I learned ALOT by losing. haha

Win by not thinking? lol I'm curious to how far that could take you. It sounds like you do think though I can see how purposely doing odd/******** movements can make an opponent confused xD Like baiting a shield by slowly walking up to them lol

 

[Desu~]

I understand what Omni is trying to tell us in the long run, but the reasons mentionned for picking a top tier are (mostly) based of his perspective alone. "Disrespect to the other player"? I don't really think so.

Look, I know I don't really have anything to say that could influence anyone since I don't really take part to the "cool guys" group, but from "my" perspective picking a character that isn't part of the "big cheese" bandwagon means that the player has a certain "dedication" to fulfill with this said character. By mastering and perfecting one's character who's not top tier would mean overcoming one's hardships.

And that is what's so magical about them "lower tiers" character. What would the character's boards even matter in smashboards then?
Many people make these boards and discuss more about what a character could do. And from all these people who test and theorize about stuff, one player eventually sticks out of the group due to experience and participation of many tournaments. And no matter how that player made it to the top without sticking to arbitrary standards, we could say that "x community" were directly or indirectly implied in this player's growth.

Because let me tell you this.

I'd totally lose my **** the day I see a top player rep'ing Jigglypuff in sm4sh.

 

[Hunybear]

Omni is the 20XX spokes person :T all fox all day

 

[-Nebula-]

I understand what Omni is trying to tell us in the long run, but the reasons mentionned for picking a top tier are (mostly) based of his perspective alone. "Disrespect to the other player"? I don't really think so.

Look, I know I don't really have anything to say that could influence anyone since I don't really take part to the "cool guys" group, but from "my" perspective picking a character that isn't part of the "big cheese" bandwagon means that the player has a certain "dedication" to fulfill with this said character. By mastering and perfecting one's character who's not top tier would mean overcoming one's hardships.

And that is what's so magical about them "lower tiers" character. What would the character's boards even matter in smashboards then?
Many people make these boards and discuss more about what a character could do. And from all these people who test and theorize about stuff, one player eventually sticks out of the group due to experience and participation of many tournaments. And no matter how that player made it to the top without sticking to arbitrary standards, we could say that "x community" were directly or indirectly implied in this player's growth.

Because let me tell you this.

I'd totally lose my **** the day I see a top player rep'ing Jigglypuff in sm4sh.

I hope you one day find your Abadango equivalent.

 

[JimmyHedgehog]

I play whoever the **** I wanna play as.
I decide based on whether or not I like this character.
A character's fighting potential plays no role in deciding my mains. It's how I use them that matters.
In general, Tier lists are for *******.

My thoughts exactly, in every fighter. Not a fan of tier lists whatsoever.

 

[Sunstar]

What he said is so true!

 

[Delta Chae]

My thoughts exactly, in every fighter. Not a fan of tier lists whatsoever.

Have you not been paying attention? This video is directed at people who are serious about their fighting game careers, if you aren't then none of what Omni has said here applies to you. People who main low tiers often have pocket top tiers. For instance, a Roy main would find much benefit in having a pocket Marth because there are certain matchups that Roy just can't win at the top level of play.

 

[-Nebula-]

Have you not been paying attention? This video is directed at people who are serious about their fighting game careers, if you aren't then none of what Omni has said here applies to you. People who main low tiers often have pocket top tiers. For instance, a Roy main would find much benefit in having a pocket Marth because there are certain matchups that Roy just can't win at the top level of play.

Get off your high horse already, he said nothing that would indicate he isn't serious about his career. People can do fine with low tiers, it just takes more effort and practice.

 

[Delta Chae]

Get off your high horse already, he said nothing that would indicate he isn't serious about his career. People can do fine with low tiers, it just takes more effort and practice.

I didn't know that stating facts meant that I was on a high horse. Nobody said you couldn't main a low tier, most players would encourage it, myself included. That being said maining a low tier means that you need to know more characters so you can cover more matchups because several low tier characters have multiple matchups that are nearly uncloseable. You can argue about skill all you want but that will not invalidate the fact that some characters are just flat out terrible like Bowser in every single one of his Smash appearances with Project M being the exception for obvious reasons.

Also, most people that say "not a fan of tier lists", "tier lists are garbage", "tiers don't exist" or any variation thereof generally aren't serious about their fighting game careers.

 

[tbtechwiz]

you should pick your favorite character

finally someone who believes in this

 

[-Nebula-]

I didn't know that stating facts meant that I was on a high horse. Nobody said you couldn't main a low tier, most players would encourage it, myself included. That being said maining a low tier means that you need to know more characters so you can cover more matchups because several low tier characters have multiple matchups that are nearly uncloseable. You can argue about skill all you want but that will not invalidate the fact that some characters are just flat out terrible like Bowser in every single one of his Smash appearances with Project M being the exception for obvious reasons.

Also, most people that say "not a fan of tier lists", "tier lists are garbage", "tiers don't exist" or any variation thereof generally aren't serious about their fighting game careers.

I think you mean "tires don exits."

Bowser's not terrible in Smash 4. If you fought the top player in my state's Bowser I think you'd agree. I'm not a huge fan of tier lists either, simply because they end up affecting players' character choices and give people a reason to get upset over a loss. That said, there's no denying that some characters are inherently stronger than others. But I think every character (or at least almost every character) in Smash 4 is viable with the right player behind them.

 

[Delta Chae]

I think you mean "tires don exits."

Bowser's not terrible in Smash 4. If you fought the top player in my state's Bowser I think you'd agree. I'm not a huge fan of tier lists either, simply because they end up affecting players' character choices and give people a reason to get upset over a loss. That said, there's no denying that some characters are inherently stronger than others. But I think every character (or at least almost every character) in Smash 4 is viable with the right player behind them.

In a vacuum Bowser in Smash 4 isn't terrible though he is significantly worse now than he was at launch. Relative to other characters like Sheik he's abhorrent.

I for one do not believe that as many characters are as tournament viable in Smash 4 as people believe. I will concede that the balance of Smash 4 is better than every other iteration with the exception of Smash 64 simply because of Smash 64's small roster. However as time goes on the gap between the top tiers and the low tiers will widen, it happened with Melee, it happened with Brawl (And that gap was already ridiculously large at launch), and it will no doubt happen with Smash 4. Now you may be able to argue that they can just patch the game, the issue there is that power creep is a thing, when that's a factor you get things like Project M 3.02 where every character was ridiculously powerful, while that is fun for a while it gets really old really fast. By the end of Smash 4's competitive lifecycle I believe that absolute best case scenario 2/5 of the roster will still be tournament viable to varying degrees. Granted that's still impressive but it's a far cry from "most of the cast".

Tier lists do not influence people's character choices as much as you think they do. Many people enter all sorts of fighting game tournaments using low tier characters. The reason you never hear of them is because they tend to get eliminated very quickly. You do have some characters like Yoshi in Melee who do have a ton of potential but the reason they're low tier is because the amount of work you have to put in compared to someone to plays Marth just to get similar results. Then you have characters like Brawl Ganondorf who are low tier because they genuinely suck. Most low tier characters fall into the latter category.

Part of being serious about your fighting game career is accepting that tiers exist and are very much relevant when you play. They are not the be-all end-all but they are still relevant. As a low tier player in Smash you'll need to dedicate yourself to learning 4 or 5 different characters to cover all possible matchups if you don't use a top tier character as well. By comparison a top tier player will only have to learn 1 or 2, worst case 3 characters to have a good matchup spread.

 

[JimmyHedgehog]

I didn't know that stating facts meant that I was on a high horse. Nobody said you couldn't main a low tier, most players would encourage it, myself included. That being said maining a low tier means that you need to know more characters so you can cover more matchups because several low tier characters have multiple matchups that are nearly uncloseable. You can argue about skill all you want but that will not invalidate the fact that some characters are just flat out terrible like Bowser in every single one of his Smash appearances with Project M being the exception for obvious reasons.

Also, most people that say "not a fan of tier lists", "tier lists are garbage", "tiers don't exist" or any variation thereof generally aren't serious about their fighting game careers.

Pretty sure it's very possible to be serious about something without agreeing 100% with everything it encompasses. I am serious, I just don't like the idea of tier lists and how it, in some cases, essentially dictates character choice for some of those that take them more seriously. I just feel it's an unnecessary split/classification, especially in more balanced fighters. And that's without going into unnecessary salt in the form of "ugh of course you'd use a top tier" or "can't believe I lost to low tier garbage".

 

[Delta Chae]

Pretty sure it's very possible to be serious about something without agreeing 100% with everything it encompasses. I am serious, I just don't like the idea of tier lists and how it, in some cases, essentially dictates character choice for some of those that take them more seriously. I just feel it's an unnecessary split/classification, especially in more balanced fighters. And that's without going into unnecessary salt in the form of "ugh of course you'd use a top tier" or "can't believe I lost to low tier garbage".

See my previous post. Again, part of being serious about your fighting game career is accepting that tiers exist and that they exist for a reason. On what grounds are they unnecessary? People who think tiers lists are the be-all end-all usually aren't serious about their fighting game careers either or are lacking in experience. There are very few "balanced" fighters out there, in most fighters that exist the tier list is accurate enough to be a useful tool. If the game is so balanced to the point that it's more matchup than tier based like Project M then I agree that a tier list is not a good tool for any situation. In most fighters however, this is not the case.

As far as influencing people's character choices, I covered this in my post before this one: many people do enter tournaments using low tier characters, they just have a tendency to get eliminated very quickly. We also have some players in Melee that initially mained lower tier characters and then switched to a top tier, in all notable instances their results saw fast improvement (Leffen from Yoshi to Fox, Shroomed from Dr. Mario to Sheik). Many low tier characters in fact have professionals dedicated to learning them and discovering their advanced techniques but they still typically fare much worse at tournaments than top tier players. In a few instances a character is low tier because of the amount of work you need to put in to effectively use them (Yoshi in Melee), however in most instances a character is low tier because they suck (Ganondorf in Brawl) or because another character that is high tier possesses some sort of gimmick or shenanigan that allows them to harshly counter that character (Marth's grab release infinite on the PK kids in Brawl).

 

[Infinite901]

I think this is a good summary: if your favorite characters are high or top tier, this is the game for you. If they're not... well, maybe being serious about a different game would be for the better. Because, hey, if you don't click with the top ~10 in Melee, you're most likely not gonna go so far.

 

[smashboy12]

I believe the reason no one complains when Melee uses the same characters is because its Melee. I know I might get some flag but I couldn't care less.
I don't hate Melee, but I HATE how you can't say nothing wrong about it. You have to praise it to the heavens and beyond. IF you don't say anything competitive or say something negative you get looked down on.

Not everyone is like this, but I believe this is why. You can't debate with the Melee community, otherwise you are a casual.

 

[Delta Chae]

I believe the reason no one complains when Melee uses the same characters is because its Melee. I know I might get some flag but I couldn't care less.
I don't hate Melee, but I HATE how you can't say nothing wrong about it. You have to praise it to the heavens and beyond. IF you don't say anything competitive or say something negative you get looked down on.

Not everyone is like this, but I believe this is why. You can't debate with the Melee community, otherwise you are a casual.

No actually it's mostly because of the amount of depth behind each character's strategies. Melee is almost 15 years old and the meta is still evolving because new things are still being discovered. Granted nothing big will probably be discovered anymore but there are still several small things that keep the matches interesting.

Brawl by comparison had worse balance than Melee but significantly less depth. The meta for Brawl has been more or less stagnant since 2012 with Meta Knight dominating most tournaments and with very little variance in tactics. Smash 4 will not see this become as big of an issue because of better character balance. Good character balance can compensate for a lack of depth, the inverse is also true, enough depth can compensate for sub-par character balance. That being said it only works up to a point, once both games have been figured out completely the complaints will start rolling in even more. If the balance in Smash 4 is good enough then it can last as a competitive title, if it's not then it will fizzle and die like Brawl did. What constitutes "good enough" in this case remains to be seen.

 

[MegaTuks]

I'm a melee fox (yeah yeah nearly every melee player) I picked him because of how fun it is to play fox and I believe it is easiest for me to get myself to practice with a character that is fun to move around with.

I can't understand people that want to play lowtiers. You have less things you can do. You get pressured easier, there is less stuff to learn. I understand someone wanting to main luigi cause they love his unique toolset despite him not being the best but for the life of me I don't see why anyone would pick for example bowser. There are characters that do everything he does but better. The only reason I can see people wanting to pick characters like that as a tournament main is to feel proud of beating that random top tier that played for like a month to feel good about being able to beat players that clearly had the advantage in characters.

Since this is most likely going to be visited by a lot of low tier players (hopefully some that go to tournaments too) I'd like them to come up with other reasons they're crippling themselves. Cause I don't really think there's lowtier players that don't play for said struggle.

If you are a lowtier playing for the struggle instead of playing for said struggle with a lowtier I recomend to aim for a higher placing in tournament with a better character instead it's a harder and deeper struggle.

the thing is i DO understand it , i started as a melee player, and that is my beginning, i agree with you if you dont understand the game you wont enjoy it. but i have played melee since i had a gamecube and watching EVO since 2012, but the growth or surprises are a lot lower , since i know to much the matchups well enough how it works. the beauty of PM and smash 4 is the rebalancing, since the meta never states consistent, tools that worked before may not work now . hence it sounds that i am saying melee , but hell i am not i WILL watch both of them at EVO. what i was trying to say is that sm4sh and pm will can still change a lot thanks to the possibility of patching, this is what i meant to a sense of freshness, never know what to expect from games that changue a lot.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

the thing is i DO understand it , i started as a melee player, and that is my beginning, i agree with you if you dont understand the game you wont enjoy it. but i have played melee since i had a gamecube and watching EVO since 2012, but the growth or surprises are a lot lower , since i know to much the matchups well enough how it works. the beauty of PM and smash 4 is the rebalancing, since the meta never states consistent, tools that worked before may not work now . hence it sounds that i am saying melee , but hell i am not i WILL watch both of them at EVO. what i was trying to say is that sm4sh and pm will can still change a lot thanks to the possibility of patching, this is what i meant to a sense of freshness, never know what to expect from games that changue a lot.

I think you have the wrong quote. By no means am I saying that sm4sh is wrong to watch or even that melee is better to watch. (Though as a melee er I think it's fair to say I won't watch sm4sh cause I don't like the game)

My post was about not understanding why people would pick a lowtier with less options over a good character. wether that means playing bowser in melee or lucina in sm4sh (or prolly like olimar in pm I think?) The confusion remains the same. Of course since sm4sh is newer it is fair to want to play a lowtier cause you think it has potential but at least from your own view you're not playing a lowtier that way. (I don't actually know if lucina is lowtier I just heard something along the lines of marth is ass in sm4sh and lucina is worse marth)

 

[[yung] Link]

you should pick your favorite character

that's why i main link in every game. even my tag is link.

 

[S4C]

Win by not thinking? lol I'm curious to how far that could take you. It sounds like you do think though I can see how purposely doing odd/******** movements can make an opponent confused xD Like baiting a shield by slowly walking up to them lol

Well... of the spirit of competition and fun, we can fight and you can measure me on how I play. lol I don't mind at all :D
But yeah, perhaps behind all the fun I'm having and 'not thinking'... maybe behind the scenes in my head I am like super analyzing every thing. lol I play purposely with no shielding, no rolling or dodging. It gives me a challenge and I enjoy thinking of other ways or methods to punishing or moving around other than my instinctive use of my L/R buttons. So in a fight, I will say I do pay very much attention to pattern, opponents' reaction, and such.