Olimar's Matchup Thread (Old thread)

[Mr Moosebones]

Metal Blades travel through pikmin but pikmin eat ALL of his other projectiles. Once again it's just "outcamp and outplay." Make the mega man commit to dumb options to try and close the gap and punish him for it. If you can get your hands on the metal blade before he does he loses his only zoning tool and it's extremely hard for him to get in on you if you refuse to let it go.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Olimars (and Alphs) out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Olimar (Alph). Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Olimar (Alph) match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/414442/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

 

[Mr Moosebones]

You can just say Olimar

 

[Syne49]

How do you guys handle the Roy match up? It seriously is frustratingly difficult.

 

[Freezie KO]

How do you guys handle the Roy match up? It seriously is frustratingly difficult.

Shield grab. Roy doesn't have a great neutral.

I like to throw reds and yellows at him a lot. Reds are immune to his fire attacks, and yellows seem to travel in a nice arc over his attacks to stick to him. Other than that... just shield everything he does. Drop shield and jab into grab.

Combo him because he falls fast and has terrible recovery. Dtilt combos work well for his fall speed. If he approaches in the air, pretty sure nothing he does autocancels but he can act immediately out of fair if he hasn't landed, so be aware of that. I'd say the match up is very much in Olimar's favor.

 

[StripedNinja]

Wow. Thanks for the detailed response! Really surprised you think the MU is in our favor with how all the fruit shenanigans interact with pikmin.

One problem I've had is that Pac Man can put the hydrant mid-stage to camp behind it. So if I use pikmin toss, that's how my pikmin get separated. If I whistle, that's when Pac Man goes in or throws his items. If I go in and cross the hydrant "dividing line" on the stage, that's when Pac Man runs up and does janky things.

I do try to stay grounded, but that's when I feel in the least control. I'm getting pushed around with water and Pac Man is floating around, charging projectiles or throwing weird bouncing ones that put me into shield and consume my pikmin. I guess I have to be more patient.

Good advice on the grabs and trying to use his hydrant against him. I generally shell up when the hydrant is doing weird things because it feels like Pac Man causes too much chaos while I am trying to run a game of controlled aggression with pikmin management. I'll also concentrate on keeping center stage control. Looking back, I can see how I tried to bait Pac Man with pivots, and that's how he was successful at pushing me towards the ledge.

Thanks!

I would also say it's in Oli's favor. It's true that Pac has a few quirks that interact with the pikmin in a janky way but the fact is it's still easier to hit him with your projectiles than vice versa. If you just stay grounded and force Pac to approach you should do fine. Just don't throw out all your pikmin at once and he can't do much.

 

[Syne49]

Shield grab. Roy doesn't have a great neutral.

I like to throw reds and yellows at him a lot. Reds are immune to his fire attacks, and yellows seem to travel in a nice arc over his attacks to stick to him. Other than that... just shield everything he does. Drop shield and jab into grab.

Combo him because he falls fast and has terrible recovery. Dtilt combos work well for his fall speed. If he approaches in the air, pretty sure nothing he does autocancels but he can act immediately out of fair if he hasn't landed, so be aware of that. I'd say the match up is very much in Olimar's favor.

You were right. After I took a step back and mentally analyzed the match up I started two stocking my opponent. I found a new challenge thougg in my other friends Luigi. He is super aggressive and I don't know how to deal with his rushdown. Any advice on that match up?

 

[-The Gucci Fairy-]

You were right. After I took a step back and mentally analyzed the match up I started two stocking my opponent. I found a new challenge thougg in my other friends Luigi. He is super aggressive and I don't know how to deal with his rushdown. Any advice on that match up?

One day all the information will be put so its organized and people dont have to keep on asking the same things lol. But regardless,

( quoted from Myran):Alright so for the Luigi MU you wanna keep in mind a few of things. First off his fireballs are safe on standard shielding. Second his throws are where he will do most of his work. Lastly his traction is bad so if you hit his shield he will slide away.

With that said Luigi players are usually gonna try and space you out with fireballs until they can get a grab follow up. Power shielding works well with these, and stopping them with Pikmin works even better in some cases. Fsmash is a great tool for going through fireballs, and can catch Luigi players off guard if they run in after the fireball looks like it will hit. Just keep camping him out with your superior projectiles, and punish when he tries to run in.

Now about his throws. We all know that Luigi capitlizes huge off a throw. That means you need to constantly keep him away or on the defensive to make it so he can't be going for them. Pivot fsmashes and grabs are great tools to keep space in between you, and purple side-b is a solid tool to get him away whenever you can't use a smash or aerial. Don't be afraid to catch him with your jab and dtilt. They are your fastest low commitment tools that will at most clank with him. When he does grab you just try to mix up your DI so he won't always be ready for certain follow ups.

Luigi players will try to catch you off guard with their fireballs, and mix ups in the up close game. Just be ready for what they have, and try to keep your space. Whistle is a solid way to land after being popped up from a Luigi juggle, it can let you land for free and even give you punishes. I highly recommend more Olimar players work this into their landing tools. You can even use the whistle on the ground if you read an attack.

Other than what myran said a few posts back, Id suggesting keeping in mind that luigis are forced to approach from the air if u spam pivot and regular fsmash/ and purple pikmin are nice for covering their air approaches in general. He can be aggressive all he wants but your mental note for this matchup is walling him out and wait for him to mess up or do a read to get a kill, the only real thing he can do is powershield but he cant powershield several fsmashes in a row, and even going deep can work but thats highly situational as his down B has alot of priority to begin with, and the off chance he gets a misfire. His traction makes it hard for him to deal with your fsmash and having a pikmin on him stops his tornado from gaining height when hes recovering I believe.

 

[Freezie KO]

You were right. After I took a step back and mentally analyzed the match up I started two stocking my opponent. I found a new challenge thougg in my other friends Luigi. He is super aggressive and I don't know how to deal with his rushdown. Any advice on that match up?

Here's my anti Luigi guide and the one tip that changed my entire perception on the Luigi match up:

F-smash not only hits his fireballs, but the pikmin continue on to hit Luigi as well. And that goes for any color pikmin.

Luigis love to throw fireballs and then run up to grab. So whenever they try this, fsmash the fireball. The pikmin gets a slight pause in air when it hits the fireball, but it's not a clank. Hitting the fireball does not nullify the pikmin hitbox, meaning Luigi cannot ever run up to you after shooting a fireball. If they try to run up after the fsmash is over, just fsmash again! Gotta love Olimar.

Keep in mind that all Luigi wants to do is grab. That's his whole game. So fsmashes and pivot fsmash (as @ -The Gucci Fairy- said) are your best weapons. If Luigi thinks he's going to be clever and just sit back and spam fireball, then throw a red pikmin at him. Not only do they cleanly go through fireballs, they also start eating the fireballs when stuck to Luigi. He'll probably try to throw out a few more fireballs before realizing there's a pikmin stuck to him, so you can run up and grab him. You can also try throwing a yellow at him since they arc nicely over the straight line that his fireballs travel.

More Luigi tips:

- Because you will have effectively shut out his options for running at you and because his aerial mobility is trash, he may start approaching from the air with a falling tornado. Everything clanks with tornado, so respect it. Just run away and fsmash, grab, or pivot option his end lag.

- When Luigi is trying to recover, throw a pikmin directly at his side-b. Pretty sure pikmin do *not* stop the down-b tornado, but they absolutely stuff the side-b.

- Luigi will often aim to side-b directly under the ledge. This is for two reasons - either he can directly up-b to snap to the ledge or he can tornado to rise up. When Luigi side-b's directly under the ledge, run off, hold down, and dair spike him. There's enough lag on the end of his side-b missile to make him never side-b under the stage again, which forces him to recover high.

- Luigi is very vulnerable during recovery. Once you've conditioned him to recover high, swat at him with fairs. Be careful for an active tornado, but both tornado and missile have end lag that make them vulnerable.

- When you dthrow -> fair Luigi, he will instinctively try to nair out of the combo. After the fair, you can fade back in the air just enough so that Luigi's nair will miss you, then fade back in to hit him with another fair over his nair kick. Only works when Luigis are so conditioned to just spam nair to get out of any combo, but you'd be surprised how much it does work. Basically you dthrow -> short hop and hold forward to fair -> hit Luigi -> immediately hold back in air to move Olimar's hurtbox out of range of the nair -> Luigi nairs -> hold forward to move back into range in the air -> fair his nair or his landing.

 

[Syne49]

Here's my anti Luigi guide and the one tip that changed my entire perception on the Luigi match up:

F-smash not only hits his fireballs, but the pikmin continue on to hit Luigi as well. And that goes for any color pikmin.

Luigis love to throw fireballs and then run up to grab. So whenever they try this, fsmash the fireball. The pikmin gets a slight pause in air when it hits the fireball, but it's not a clank. Hitting the fireball does not nullify the pikmin hitbox, meaning Luigi cannot ever run up to you after shooting a fireball. If they try to run up after the fsmash is over, just fsmash again! Gotta love Olimar.

Keep in mind that all Luigi wants to do is grab. That's his whole game. So fsmashes and pivot fsmash (as @ -The Gucci Fairy- said) are your best weapons. If Luigi thinks he's going to be clever and just sit back and spam fireball, then throw a red pikmin at him. Not only do they cleanly go through fireballs, they also start eating the fireballs when stuck to Luigi. He'll probably try to throw out a few more fireballs before realizing there's a pikmin stuck to him, so you can run up and grab him. You can also try throwing a yellow at him since they arc nicely over the straight line that his fireballs travel.

More Luigi tips:

- Because you will have effectively shut out his options for running at you and because his aerial mobility is trash, he may start approaching from the air with a falling tornado. Everything clanks with tornado, so respect it. Just run away and fsmash, grab, or pivot option his end lag.

- When Luigi is trying to recover, throw a pikmin directly at his side-b. Pretty sure pikmin do *not* stop the down-b tornado, but they absolutely stuff the side-b.

- Luigi will often aim to side-b directly under the ledge. This is for two reasons - either he can directly up-b to snap to the ledge or he can tornado to rise up. When Luigi side-b's directly under the ledge, run off, hold down, and dair spike him. There's enough lag on the end of his side-b missile to make him never side-b under the stage again, which forces him to recover high.

- Luigi is very vulnerable during recovery. Once you've conditioned him to recover high, swat at him with fairs. Be careful for an active tornado, but both tornado and missile have end lag that make them vulnerable.

- When you dthrow -> fair Luigi, he will instinctively try to nair out of the combo. After the fair, you can fade back in the air just enough so that Luigi's nair will miss you, then fade back in to hit him with another fair over his nair kick. Only works when Luigis are so conditioned to just spam nair to get out of any combo, but you'd be surprised how much it does work. Basically you dthrow -> short hop and hold forward to fair -> hit Luigi -> immediately hold back in air to move Olimar's hurtbox out of range of the nair -> Luigi nairs -> hold forward to move back into range in the air -> fair his nair or his landing.

Wow, I was completely underutilizing f-smash. I had no idea it had that much damn utility. Also thanks for the advice! I was really struggling against that stupid n-air. Now I am doing way better against it. The match up no longer feels ridiculous to me.

 

[Syne49]

Just wanted to thank you guys. With the advice you guys have been giving I went from struggling greatly, to winning, and to even two stocking some of my tougher challengers. 0

 

[Freezie KO]

Just wanted to thank you guys. With the advice you guys have been giving I went from struggling greatly, to winning, and to even two stocking some of my tougher challengers. 0

Never tell them where you gained your knowledge.

 

[Syne49]

So I have one more question. Even though I am not going to really touch anyone for the next few months until I feel satisfied with my Olimar growth. Who would make a good secondary for him?

 

[Planty]

How do you guys deal with ZSS? What's the best strategy against her besides don't get grabbed? Who's favor is it in?

So I have one more question. Even though I am not going to really touch anyone for the next few months until I feel satisfied with my Olimar growth. Who would make a good secondary for him?

The best secondary for any character in the game is Sheik simply because Sheik doesn't lose any matchups. Other than Sheik, Mario is a great option. His worst matchup is only 40:60 (Vs Sheik) so he can definitely help you out. Fox might be a good pick too.

 

[Blue Banana]

How do you guys deal with ZSS? What's the best strategy against her besides don't get grabbed? Who's favor is it in?

Play keepaway and don't get stunned. Stuff Paralyzer shots with side B or Fsmash, and watch how you play defensively so you don't get caught by Dsmash (such as rolling too much). Purple side B and Fsmash also helps with dealing with grabs; since it takes a bit to reel in the caught opponent, the two projectiles will interrupt the grab and knock her away from you.

Otherwise, play safe and punish what you can. She's quick, so expect her to give you barely any leeway in terms of spacing and punish opportunities. Some of her attacks--dash attack, dash grab, and side B--cover a lot of space, so don't get too carried away with projectiles and focus on what the ZSS player is planning to do.

 

[Blue Banana]

Does anyone have any advice on the Ike matchup? I played against a dude who secondaries him at a tourney yesterday in a lot of friendlies, and I keep falling short of a win many times mainly because I can't figure out how to deal with the player's method of short hop/double jump aerial approaches to negate my ground control.

 

[-The Gucci Fairy-]

Does anyone have any advice on the Ike matchup? I played against a dude who secondaries him at a tourney yesterday in a lot of friendlies, and I keep falling short of a win many times mainly because I can't figure out how to deal with the player's method of short hop/double jump aerial approaches to negate my ground control.

For ike don't commit cuz he can punish you hard. Try to keep a pikmin on him cuz when they have a hitbox it activates his counter, and in general your spacing game gotta be on point. Pivot grabs/smash attks to catch his landings. Like literally all u gotta do is run away and choose a stage where you can runaway and if he approaches through the air know that purples stop aerials approaches and with mess with his rhythm. tl;dr : Hit and runaway and space yourself and play the patient game.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Yo Olimar Mains, it seems the PAC man mains could use some Olimar knowledge considering they say that you don't have the advantage at all
http://smashboards.com/threads/pacm...iscussion-thread.370926/page-22#post-20090827
If you have anything to say, just go ahead and do it

 

[Mr Moosebones]

It's okay if they think that.

 

[Freezie KO]

A few character specific questions:

Fox:

How do pikmin (and Olimar) interact with his up-B firefox? I may be misremembering, but I feel like I've hit him out of it before sometimes and not other times. Do you need red pikmin to hit him out of it (fair or bair) once it starts moving?

Can you nair to interrupt and trade?

Wario:

How do pikmin interact with his bike? Again, I feel like sometimes I can fsmash it and make it blow up and other times it doesn't work? Is it a damage threshold? Do you need red pikmin? Do you need to initiate an fsmash at closer range to get the sweetspot?

How about grabbing him off of the bike? Is there a reason sometimes the bike hits you and other times you get the grab?

 

[ITTOOK]

A few character specific questions:

Fox:

How do pikmin (and Olimar) interact with his up-B firefox? I may be misremembering, but I feel like I've hit him out of it before sometimes and not other times. Do you need red pikmin to hit him out of it (fair or bair) once it starts moving?

Can you nair to interrupt and trade?

Wario:

How do pikmin interact with his bike? Again, I feel like sometimes I can fsmash it and make it blow up and other times it doesn't work? Is it a damage threshold? Do you need red pikmin? Do you need to initiate an fsmash at closer range to get the sweetspot?

How about grabbing him off of the bike? Is there a reason sometimes the bike hits you and other times you get the grab?

I'm new here but I'm pretty sure that you can destroy the Wario bike with a f smash also fire fox a red pikmin can latch on to fox and still do damage since Fire fox move is fire based.

 

[koken]

A few character specific questions:

Fox:

How do pikmin (and Olimar) interact with his up-B firefox? I may be misremembering, but I feel like I've hit him out of it before sometimes and not other times. Do you need red pikmin to hit him out of it (fair or bair) once it starts moving?

Can you nair to interrupt and trade?

Wario:

How do pikmin interact with his bike? Again, I feel like sometimes I can fsmash it and make it blow up and other times it doesn't work? Is it a damage threshold? Do you need red pikmin? Do you need to initiate an fsmash at closer range to get the sweetspot?

How about grabbing him off of the bike? Is there a reason sometimes the bike hits you and other times you get the grab?

Fox:
The Pikmin do not cancel the Up B if its latched on and you can hit him with any pikmin if the timing is right. There's no need to use a red but a yellow one is easier to connect because of the greater hitbox.
As far as I know, nair will not interrupt or trade against Fox's Up B.

Wario:
This is just my experiencie, I don't have knowledge about so:
You can Fsmash against the bike and destroy it, but will depend on the damage done. Whenever the bike is a "new" one or at least it doesn't have damage, that will count if is destroyed with the sweetspot or sourspot.
I'm not completely sure about this though.
About the closer range to the sweetspot, isn't a bike stuff. It is a game thing.

I wish I could have facts to prove all these .

 

[Freezie KO]

Thanks for the answers. I feel like I just don't know when to intercept the firefox at all.

I'm beginning to believe Fox is in the top 3 of horrible match ups for Olimar. A good Fox can just hop around (camping in the air, basically), and Olimar can't contest him there. A nair stuffs everything and kills pikmin. Every aerial Fox would do confirms into an up smash. He has a projectile that can outcamp Olimar and stops pikmin toss. And his reflector gives him basically an insta-kill counter on any hard read he gets off a smash.

Playing Olimar makes me realize how much I disagree with the weird decision Sakurai makes to give really good projectiles to super-fast characters like ZSS, Sheik, Fox, Pikachu, and Mario. I mean, give the other characters a chance, no?

 

[koken]

The MU it's quite difficult but not that hard. I may believe you just need more experience, because Fox has "limited" options against us.
I always fight at least against 2 fox every tourney I attend and I have never lost the set, I may lose 1 game or something like that.
Let me explain this a little bit more.

• Fox's laser can be nullified by just crouching... that's all, even tho he doesn't stop, you can "advance" with Dtilt XD.
• It's true, he can short hop all the match waiting for your approach.. so my answer to that is: why approach? Just throw pikmin and wait for him to shake them off. That's where you act and punish.
• Keeps jumping? Try to run and Usmash or Uair under him.
• He keeps jumping? Try something weird like short hop + dodge + bair. You can run under his jump and do a pivot grab, that helps a lot.
• Seriously he's still jumping? Pivot smash or Fsmash a lot. At some point he will start to reflect instead of jump.
• Every Fox player tries to Usmash you as soon as possible. Well, they have to run to you and our grab is AMAZINGLY huge. So don't bother if the reflect exist, just grab and enjoy. Pivot Grab is more safe.
• Fox is a "light" character and a fast faller. Abuse of that in your favor and be annoying when he tries to recover. If he use side b to grab the ledge, you can punish with fair at "perfect" timing. If you can do a Bair ... you are my idol, because that would cause a stage rebound.
• Fox players doesn't expect at all a ledge trump, so use it as a set up to Dair when he regrab or wait for him to stand at the platform because they will try to side b to the stage.

At least these are the things I do and works for me. Isn't the bible of how to fight against Fox but you can build your strategy from what works for me .

 

[ITTOOK]

Ok gentlemen since the last video was laggy I've uploaded a new video here's the link to it https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LMCpV_YvQgE Olimar: Me vs Falco this match was perfect so please give me criticism on my aggressive Green Olimar.

 

[Volk3]

#koken
I think you gave some good advice, I agree with most of it

these are some I agree less with

Fox's laser can be nullified by just crouching... that's all, even tho he doesn't stop, you can "advance" with Dtilt XD.

If I'm not mistaken, crouching will still let fox blaster hit you, it's at the moments when you dtilt (when olimar worm's), where the blaster won't. So you can dtilt to approach (slowly), but some lasers will still hit you (blaster is weak, but still, every % matters ).

Keeps jumping? Try to run and Usmash or Uair under him.

I personally think usmash shouldnt be used to approach or whiff. because fox has good nair, he can clash with the usmash and it wont hit him, unless he spaced he incorrectly ofcourse, then he will get hit, but the usmash has lagg and can be punished if the nair stops usmash and he lands almost lagless

All in all, good advice, so thank you

 

[Freezie KO]

The MU it's quite difficult but not that hard. I may believe you just need more experience, because Fox has "limited" options against us.
I always fight at least against 2 fox every tourney I attend and I have never lost the set, I may lose 1 game or something like that.
Let me explain this a little bit more.

• Fox's laser can be nullified by just crouching... that's all, even tho he doesn't stop, you can "advance" with Dtilt XD.
• It's true, he can short hop all the match waiting for your approach.. so my answer to that is: why approach? Just throw pikmin and wait for him to shake them off. That's where you act and punish.
• Keeps jumping? Try to run and Usmash or Uair under him.
• He keeps jumping? Try something weird like short hop + dodge + bair. You can run under his jump and do a pivot grab, that helps a lot.
• Seriously he's still jumping? Pivot smash or Fsmash a lot. At some point he will start to reflect instead of jump.
• Every Fox player tries to Usmash you as soon as possible. Well, they have to run to you and our grab is AMAZINGLY huge. So don't bother if the reflect exist, just grab and enjoy. Pivot Grab is more safe.
• Fox is a "light" character and a fast faller. Abuse of that in your favor and be annoying when he tries to recover. If he use side b to grab the ledge, you can punish with fair at "perfect" timing. If you can do a Bair ... you are my idol, because that would cause a stage rebound.
• Fox players doesn't expect at all a ledge trump, so use it as a set up to Dair when he regrab or wait for him to stand at the platform because they will try to side b to the stage.

At least these are the things I do and works for me. Isn't the bible of how to fight against Fox but you can build your strategy from what works for me .

Cool. Thanks for the tips. When Fox keeps hopping around, I try to just throw pikmin at him but as soon as I jump, that's usually when they approach. I use pivot fsmash a lot but his nair is so good. It's so frustrating when it clanks with everything!

 

[koken]

#koken
I think you gave some good advice, I agree with most of it

these are some I agree less with

If I'm not mistaken, crouching will still let fox blaster hit you, it's at the moments when you dtilt (when olimar worm's), where the blaster won't. So you can dtilt to approach (slowly), but some lasers will still hit you (blaster is weak, but still, every % matters ).


I personally think usmash shouldnt be used to approach or whiff. because fox has good nair, he can clash with the usmash and it wont hit him, unless he spaced he incorrectly ofcourse, then he will get hit, but the usmash has lagg and can be punished if the nair stops usmash and he lands almost lagless

All in all, good advice, so thank you

I'm sorry but Fox's lasers don't hit you if you crouch. Falco's laser does.
And yes, the Usmash might be too risky so thanks for the correction .

 

[koken]

Cool. Thanks for the tips. When Fox keeps hopping around, I try to just throw pikmin at him but as soon as I jump, that's usually when they approach. I use pivot fsmash a lot but his nair is so good. It's so frustrating when it clanks with everything!

You're welcome, I hope it help you :D.

It may work or not (it depends on the distance when fox lands) but you may shield + grab after blocking the nair.
Nevertheless I believe the safest move to nair would be pivot + something.
Regarding to your hop and he punishing that:
short hop + side b + fair
short hop + side b + up B + falling nair
short hop to backwards + side b + fair
and so goes on and on.

Don't forget you have dash around. If you feel more safe when he's approaching with Nair, just dash backwards and react according. Dash back and then go for grab, may be more safe if he tries to Neutral attack or smash, because of our big grab distance.
I strongly believe we dominate the neutral against Fox so don't be afraid and try some stuff .
Also you can play the mindgame and start short hoping to fair if he approach, or just short hop to confuse him XD.

 

[Volk3]

I'm sorry but Fox's lasers don't hit you if you crouch. Falco's laser does.
And yes, the Usmash might be too risky so thanks for the correction .

Aah, you're right, fox blaster dont hit . Falco's does because his lasers are a bit thicker than fox's.
The Usmash isnt a bad option though, if it hits, with purple and some rage, fox can die about 80-90%. So satisfying. Just dont get punished on whiff

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Aah, you're right, fox blaster dont hit . Falco's does because his lasers are a bit thicker than fox's.
The Usmash isnt a bad option though, if it hits, with purple and some rage, fox can die about 80-90%. So satisfying. Just dont get punished on whiff

A good substitute for purple upsmash is red dthrow into purple upair at 80-90%. Will still kill and there's no risk.

 

[Flawlessh]

A good substitute for purple upsmash is red dthrow into purple upair at 80-90%. Will still kill and there's no risk.

i tested this a bit, if they DI away from us during the throw, it will never hit a floaty character.

But characters like fox, falcon, shiek, it should be fine. but im pretty sure there nair can come out before our u-air, on certain percents / rage.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

i tested this a bit, if they DI away from us during the throw, it will never hit a floaty character.

But characters like fox, falcon, shiek, it should be fine. but im pretty sure there nair can come out before our u-air, on certain percents / rage.

Considering we were specifically talking about fox idk why the floaties were relevant and nah, at the right %s panic nair is too slow.

 

[StripedNinja]

i tested this a bit, if they DI away from us during the throw, it will never hit a floaty character.

But characters like fox, falcon, shiek, it should be fine. but im pretty sure there nair can come out before our u-air, on certain percents / rage.

You can always try to condition them to DI in but you'll likely have to purposefully whiff a few follow ups

 

[koken]

Aah, you're right, fox blaster dont hit . Falco's does because his lasers are a bit thicker than fox's.
The Usmash isnt a bad option though, if it hits, with purple and some rage, fox can die about 80-90%. So satisfying. Just dont get punished on whiff

• Fox's laser can be nullified by just crouching... that's all, even tho he doesn't stop, you can "advance" with Dtilt XD.

At least these are the things I do and works for me. Isn't the bible of how to fight against Fox but you can build your strategy from what works for me .

You're welcome, I hope it help you :D.
Regarding to your hop and he punishing that:
short hop + side b + fair
short hop + side b + up B + falling nair
short hop to backwards + side b + fair
and so goes on and on.

Also you can play the mindgame and start short hoping to fair if he approach, or just short hop to confuse him XD.

Here is the proof of how to approach to Fox with crouch and walk.
As you can see in the end, the game was finished by a short hop to backwards + dodge + bair

 

[Freezie KO]

Sorry, but I've been following the advice in this thread, and I still think Fox is a nightmare match up. Everything confirms into up smash. Camping is hard because he can cross the stage in the time it takes you to get a pikmin toss out. At best, you take damage by trying to hop over and toss or duck. Even if he gets 3-5% every time he resets to "camping neutral," he doesn't care if you duck because that doesn't actually hurt him. And that's if he's not reducing your options with air camping with his nair.

Fox's Side B is awful for Olimar. If Fox can land it, it's yet another free move to put Olimar into the air. If he spaces properly on shield, Olimar can't punish it because he has crap mobility. Illusion is a free recovery to the ledge. At best, you can chance it to run off and fair Fox, but he can still just do it again right after to recover. If he still has his double jump, he can even double jump and Illusion back to the ledge before you can make it back.

A good Fox can also get into your face as well as he can camp. While he can spam up tilt or jabs, all of which lead into juggling options with fairs, up airs, etc, Olimar's options are jab and a shield grab that will probably whiff at close range. Pivots are good for alleviating pressure, of course, but his dash attack has great range and can frequently beat out a pivot grab and a running shield/powershield beats pivot smash. Fox's run speed is a real problem and, at best, you get a coin flip of who will get punished, him or you.

A Fox shielding at the ledge makes Olimar's recovery even more difficult than it already is. And even throwing pikmin to the stage is an easy way for him to use reflector (which is always a threat anyway). His up tilt is an easy move to put Olimar in the air with quick frame data and leads to all sorts of combos. His dash attack is amazing at covering both landings and any getting back to the stage options. His downsmash covers lots of distance. Ultimately, he just has too many free options that put Olimar in the air for tons of damage. And did I mention that everything confirms into upsmash? 'Cause... yeah.

The only thing Olimar has over Fox is a kill throw, but landing a grab on a short hopping Fox is near impossible. Any Fox that knows you're going for a kill throw is going to make that very hard. Fox doesn't have a kill throw, so staying in shield is often the best option. That said, Olimar's disadvantage state is so bad that getting grabbed is just a license to get combo'ed.

It's a 60/40 at least IMO until someone shows me a top Olimar repeatedly beasting on a top Fox in a national.

 

[Volk3]

Sorry, but I've been following the advice in this thread, and I still think Fox is a nightmare match up. Everything confirms into up smash. Camping is hard because he can cross the stage in the time it takes you to get a pikmin toss out. At best, you take damage by trying to hop over and toss or duck. Even if he gets 3-5% every time he resets to "camping neutral," he doesn't care if you duck because that doesn't actually hurt him. And that's if he's not reducing your options with air camping with his nair.

Fox's Side B is awful for Olimar. If Fox can land it, it's yet another free move to put Olimar into the air. If he spaces properly on shield, Olimar can't punish it because he has crap mobility. Illusion is a free recovery to the ledge. At best, you can chance it to run off and fair Fox, but he can still just do it again right after to recover. If he still has his double jump, he can even double jump and Illusion back to the ledge before you can make it back.

A good Fox can also get into your face as well as he can camp. While he can spam up tilt or jabs, all of which lead into juggling options with fairs, up airs, etc, Olimar's options are jab and a shield grab that will probably whiff at close range. Pivots are good for alleviating pressure, of course, but his dash attack has great range and can frequently beat out a pivot grab and a running shield/powershield beats pivot smash. Fox's run speed is a real problem and, at best, you get a coin flip of who will get punished, him or you.

A Fox shielding at the ledge makes Olimar's recovery even more difficult than it already is. And even throwing pikmin to the stage is an easy way for him to use reflector (which is always a threat anyway). His up tilt is an easy move to put Olimar in the air with quick frame data and leads to all sorts of combos. His dash attack is amazing at covering both landings and any getting back to the stage options. His downsmash covers lots of distance. Ultimately, he just has too many free options that put Olimar in the air for tons of damage. And did I mention that everything confirms into upsmash? 'Cause... yeah.

The only thing Olimar has over Fox is a kill throw, but landing a grab on a short hopping Fox is near impossible. Any Fox that knows you're going for a kill throw is going to make that very hard. Fox doesn't have a kill throw, so staying in shield is often the best option. That said, Olimar's disadvantage state is so bad that getting grabbed is just a license to get combo'ed.

It's a 60/40 at least IMO until someone shows me a top Olimar repeatedly beasting on a top Fox in a national.

I dont think it was stated that we have an advantage over fox. Fox is indeed a hard matchup as he is also a high tier. Olimar in general has trouble against fast characters because Olimar relies on spacing and he needs the time to do it. A character that can close distance quickly will make it hard for Olimar to camp. Olimar best option is to play punish game. Not that we cannot win, its just harder

 

[koken]

I dont think it was stated that we have an advantage over fox. Fox is indeed a hard matchup as he is also a high tier. Olimar in general has trouble against fast characters because Olimar relies on spacing and he needs the time to do it. A character that can close distance quickly will make it hard for Olimar to camp. Olimar best option is to play punish game. Not that he cannot win, its just harder

I think I said we have advantage against Fox but I didn't meant to be like a 80:20, just meant to say we have more options to build damage. I confirm (in my opinion) we have a sort of advantage against Fox.

Sorry, but I've been following the advice in this thread, and I still think Fox is a nightmare match up. Everything confirms into up smash. Camping is hard because he can cross the stage in the time it takes you to get a pikmin toss out. At best, you take damage by trying to hop over and toss or duck. Even if he gets 3-5% every time he resets to "camping neutral," he doesn't care if you duck because that doesn't actually hurt him. And that's if he's not reducing your options with air camping with his nair.

Fox's Side B is awful for Olimar. If Fox can land it, it's yet another free move to put Olimar into the air. If he spaces properly on shield, Olimar can't punish it because he has crap mobility. Illusion is a free recovery to the ledge. At best, you can chance it to run off and fair Fox, but he can still just do it again right after to recover. If he still has his double jump, he can even double jump and Illusion back to the ledge before you can make it back.

A good Fox can also get into your face as well as he can camp. While he can spam up tilt or jabs, all of which lead into juggling options with fairs, up airs, etc, Olimar's options are jab and a shield grab that will probably whiff at close range. Pivots are good for alleviating pressure, of course, but his dash attack has great range and can frequently beat out a pivot grab and a running shield/powershield beats pivot smash. Fox's run speed is a real problem and, at best, you get a coin flip of who will get punished, him or you.

A Fox shielding at the ledge makes Olimar's recovery even more difficult than it already is. And even throwing pikmin to the stage is an easy way for him to use reflector (which is always a threat anyway). His up tilt is an easy move to put Olimar in the air with quick frame data and leads to all sorts of combos. His dash attack is amazing at covering both landings and any getting back to the stage options. His downsmash covers lots of distance. Ultimately, he just has too many free options that put Olimar in the air for tons of damage. And did I mention that everything confirms into upsmash? 'Cause... yeah.

The only thing Olimar has over Fox is a kill throw, but landing a grab on a short hopping Fox is near impossible. Any Fox that knows you're going for a kill throw is going to make that very hard. Fox doesn't have a kill throw, so staying in shield is often the best option. That said, Olimar's disadvantage state is so bad that getting grabbed is just a license to get combo'ed.

It's a 60/40 at least IMO until someone shows me a top Olimar repeatedly beasting on a top Fox in a national.

Look, if you are going to push yourself for Uthrow Kill, then have at least 2 blue Pikmin in line. If you have 3, they will never know when you are going for a Grab.

Are you sure you are playing different against Fox? Because there has to be differences fighting against him regarding to other character.

Do you approach constantly? Does he approach always the same? Do you play aggressively? Do you wait and have patience? Have you tried to short hop + dodge + nair in the same place when he approach with dash attack?

Yes, everything confirms to Usmash, so you need to stay at the ground asap. Abuse of your shield, roll and detect the behave of your enemy.
I don't know.. if the Fox players you are fighting are VERY VERY good, then you only need to keep practicing and training.

Believe me, I had the same issue against Diddy Kong and yesterday I beat a few of them which time ago destroyed me, with a solid performance and improvement of my game.

Would you like me to upload some more fights against Fox players? I might not be the great example but I'm pretty sure you can take some ideas an put it on your game .

 

[Freezie KO]

Look, if you are going to push yourself for Uthrow Kill, then have at least 2 blue Pikmin in line. If you have 3, they will never know when you are going for a Grab.

Are you sure you are playing different against Fox? Because there has to be differences fighting against him regarding to other character.

Do you approach constantly? Does he approach always the same? Do you play aggressively? Do you wait and have patience? Have you tried to short hop + dodge + nair in the same place when he approach with dash attack?

Yes, everything confirms to Usmash, so you need to stay at the ground asap. Abuse of your shield, roll and detect the behave of your enemy.
I don't know.. if the Fox players you are fighting are VERY VERY good, then you only need to keep practicing and training.

Believe me, I had the same issue against Diddy Kong and yesterday I beat a few of them which time ago destroyed me, with a solid performance and improvement of my game.

Would you like me to upload some more fights against Fox players? I might not be the great example but I'm pretty sure you can take some ideas an put it on your game .

I think the Fox I was playing is about as good as the one you posted the video of. I would say that I probably approached as much as he did. If he retreated to the edge of the stage and shot lasers, I would approach, but I tried to bait him into approaching, so I could catch him with pivots or grabs.

I noticed he would approach with running shield a lot to counter my pivot fsmash. I tried to mix up with pivot grab but any reward he got from a dash attack would be way more than what I get off anything else. If you had more vids against Fox, I'd definitely watch them (and steal your tactics)!

 

[Ridel]

I've been M.I.A on this thread for a long while. What did I miss?