Olimar's Frame Data [Deleted]

[KuroganeHammer]

Link to Olimar's Complete Frame Data: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Olimar​

 

[Myran]

Umm purple Pikmin have a 1.4x multiplier not 1.6.

Also mfw you put Olimar's difficulty so low.

 

[Angbad]

Yeah olimar is definitely one of the hardest characters in the game to play at a top level.

 

[koken]

Totally agree... who could believe that Olimar is an easy character?
I know people who have asked me to teach them to play and they drop it after a week for another character D:

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Oops, thanks for picking up on that typo @ Myran !

I remember thinking Olimar was difficult to play in Brawl.

I also remember thinking he was hard to play in Smash 4 but then Dabuz came second at Apex by just c-sticking with Olimar, so

 

[KakuCP9]

To be fair, Olimar is extremely awkward to pick up since you have be aware the uses of the pikmin in the heat of battle. Can't really comment on his skill ceiling, but his skill floor alone at least makes him more difficult than f-smash the character.

 

[koken]

Now to be honest, and talking about the topic, nice work @ KuroganeHammer

 

[Myran]

I also remember thinking he was hard to play in Smash 4 but then Dabuz came second at Apex by just c-sticking with Olimar, so

This is what gets me, he used Rosa for most of Apex. -_-
Bust out Olimar on stream and everyone thinks he's the best...

 

[Angbad]

Oops, thanks for picking up on that typo @ Myran !

I remember thinking Olimar was difficult to play in Brawl.

I also remember thinking he was hard to play in Smash 4 but then Dabuz came second at Apex by just c-sticking with Olimar, so

if u think dabuz got 2nd with olimar you're insane. he used olimar in one set.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I can appreciate that.

Regardless, there's a whole bunch of factors that were nerfed or removed from Brawl Olimar (who was, quite frankly, braindead) that's made him easier to play. Micromanaging is still there to a VERY SMALL extent but it's so much easier with 3 Pikmin and set order.

All Pikmin in Brawl had unique KB values, angles, damage values, but to save space they gave damage multipliers instead. Pretty much every Pikmin attack is the same, except with different % values.

 

[Myran]

I can appreciate that.

Regardless, there's a whole bunch of factors that were nerfed or removed from Brawl Olimar (who was, quite frankly, braindead) that's made him easier to play. Micromanaging is still there to a VERY SMALL extent but it's so much easier with 3 Pikmin and set order.

All Pikmin in Brawl had unique KB values, angles, damage values, but to save space they gave damage multipliers instead. Pretty much every Pikmin attack is the same, except with different % values.

Brawl Olimar was braindead until you hit the top level, then it became ridiculous to keep up with the best MKs. I don't know how Nietono did it.

Smash 4 Olimar has quite a few tools in this game that I feel flesh out his gameplay more, he still likes to side-b and pivot grab a **** ton, but can do more than just that.

 

[Indexxical!]

This is very cool. I'm curious though, what research do you have to do to get these numbers?

he still likes to side-b and pivot grab a **** ton, but can do more than just that.

Yes, the addition of a kill move (f-tilt) without pikmin changes up his CQC in a big way. With only three pikmin, you have to know what to do when someone is up in your grill. D-tilt is immensely useful against quicker characters and combos into itself very well.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

This is very cool. I'm curious though, what research do you have to do to get these numbers?

Capture card for frames and game data for the BKB/KBG and other values.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

...lol

If Olimar is easy to play then you really need to start playing vs better opponents.

It's real easy playing a character that occasionally just doesnt have a hitbox on their attacks if your microspacing is off. Also, ledgegame in general makes Olimar extremely difficult to use well. Have you tried resetting neutral from the ledge? Pikmin ledge behaviour is really wonky and you need to straight up outplay your opponent just to not die or eat 50%+

That said, ty for this as always.

 

[-The Gucci Fairy-]

Oops, thanks for picking up on that typo @ Myran !

I remember thinking Olimar was difficult to play in Brawl.

I also remember thinking he was hard to play in Smash 4 but then Dabuz came second at Apex by just c-sticking with Olimar, so

This is what gets me, he used Rosa for most of Apex. -_-
Bust out Olimar on stream and everyone thinks he's the best...

Lets just say pikmin with most top tiers are very easy to remove, once u start going to top level play vs top tier's your moves are basically out prioritzed by everyone elses moves, yes you have a spammable fsmash but it can be punishable very easily its not the one solution solve all thing falcon can just dance around and punish the endlag coming from it and nair, Olimar dies very early so if he really was so simple read by a hard hitting smash , you die ,its not really that simple to wall people out, for the general consensus its a silly misconception that doing so is easy and playing campy is for brain dead people. There are ways around it pressuring olimar as he isn't that fast to begin with, his jab is frame 4 and thats his fastest move, everything else, when attempting to beat out another characters move,loses to alot of the cast. As far as close quarters, yes his ftilt maybe a nice kill move but thats at later percents and it takes quite alot of startup which is overall an unreliable option with faster characters,he is forced to space himself and if not, get grabbed then juggled for days because as we all know he is floaty. All he really needs to be put in an unfavorable position is prop him up in the air and his offensive options become risky and he loses in the air ,and if anything with micro management it makes it easier for players who are playing against olimar to predict what option they make come out if they are well experienced, but hey I respect your opinion, just makes me wonder a bit and nice job on gathering the data keep up on the good work!

 

[Xygonn]

Been waiting for this. Thanks! Frame 9 dair is pretty great. Maybe the fastest reliable one in the game.

 

[NotAsian]

Found something interesting the other day I was playing a fox and he kept up tilting me and I was mashing buttons and my up air came through and broke the combo knocking him up and then I followed up with another up air. I found this really useful and I didn't expect up air to have such a fast hit box underneath olimar, coming out frame 7 IDK what foxes up tilt is

 

[koken]

That happened to me once, too! But I can't repeat it, the Uair keeps coming up but doesn't hit or connect at all.
I think it has to be something very very specific according to the movement or the distance or whatever.
I'm still waiting for someone can explain why and when.

 

[Freezie KO]

I love the site with all this data, but I have to disagree with that "difficulty" ranking as well. It's so weird. I mean, I guess it's just there to say how much "tech skill" you need, but that seems more irrelevant for Smash 4 than Melee. Sheik is really high in "difficulty" because you need to b-reverse needles and bouncing fish off walls? Arguably she's among the easier characters because she's a character that can get away with murder just needle camping, endlessly fair-ing, and learning how to mix up your up airs.

I guess Olimar doesn't have a lot of advanced techniques, but the difficulty is in constantly thinking on the fly, using knowledge of every match up, and playing a mini-RTS in the middle of a Smash match. And I'd argue that once you play Olimar against a good player and find that you have no active pikmin and just lost the majority of your available moveset, you'll say Olimar is a difficult character.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I want to get rid of it at some point but honestly I would be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the drama it brings.

 

[Freezie KO]

Have you tried resetting neutral from the ledge? Pikmin ledge behaviour is really wonky and you need to straight up outplay your opponent just to not die or eat 50%+

By the way... why hasn't this been patched? If you run from the ledge towards center stage, the pikmin fly into the air randomly. I've died soooo many times to pikmin that were previously by my side suddenly becoming inactive. You have to be a good distance from the ledge to not have this effect. I feel if Olimar was used by more players, this would've been patched.

 

[Myran]

By the way... why hasn't this been patched? If you run from the ledge towards center stage, the pikmin fly into the air randomly. I've died soooo many times to pikmin that were previously by my side suddenly becoming inactive. You have to be a good distance from the ledge to not have this effect. I feel if Olimar was used by more players, this would've been patched.

I'ma be real, I'll take this trade off for some of the wonkiness that Olimar can get with desyncs.

 

[Freezie KO]

I'ma be real, I'll take this trade off for some of the wonkiness that Olimar can get with desyncs.

Personally I'd rather just have the security of my moves come out when I need them. I mean, sometimes Olimar goes off stage and the active pikmin is stuck running against the edge, but it won't fall off and go to Olimar. And other times, two pikmin are standing right next to you while the active one is wandering around somewhere, yet the red arrow won't switch over.

If they ever wanted to give Olimar a buff and still preserve everything about the character, they could patch this up and maybe speed up the post-move recovery of some of the pikmin attacks. Keep the desyncs for Myran though...

 

[Myran]

Just gimme priority and I'll take desyncs, never clanking would be awesome.

 

[Freezie KO]

Just gimme priority and I'll take desyncs, never clanking would be awesome.

How exactly do the pikmin work in terms of priority with Smash? I know they clank with everything, but why exactly? Like, my understanding was that in Smash, if two moves deal within 9% damage of each other, then they clank. And if one move deals 10% more, then that move wins. And then there's transcendent priority which always wins.

So what are pikmin? Are they the opposite of transcendent priority? They always clank no matter what and they can never "win" a priority exchange?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

They just clank lots because they're not attached to hurtboxes. They do average damage so it'd be rare for something to outprioritize them.

 

[Myran]

They're considered projectiles I believe. Their hurtboxes are always active when attacking to, even during aerials. I believe that since they are considered projectiles though they clank with any attack, being aerials or grounded moves. There are ways you can make certain attacks win trades though. For instance if you're charging a dsmash when some attacks if they hit your Pikmin while charging the dsmash your attack will win even if they're attack animation is still out. Instead of clanking as if you released both attacks at the same time. Also for quite a few of the attacks in the game if they hit something else before your smash gets to them your smash will hit them without clanking.

 

[Freezie KO]

Their hurtboxes are active even when attacking? That can't be right or most clanks would kill them. Or do you mean during attack animations, like someone hitting the pikmin during a fair after the hitbox is no longer active?

When you say you want priority, how would you like them to be treated?

 

[Myran]

Their hurtboxes are active even when attacking? That can't be right or most clanks would kill them. Or do you mean during attack animations, like someone hitting the pikmin during a fair after the hitbox is no longer active?

When you say you want priority, how would you like them to be treated?

I guess I mean when you attack with them, but maybe after their hitbox is out. Like you can have aerials be hit, but the Pikmin won't die since they can't die during attacks. Also their hurtboxes are active when charging smashes.

As for priority just give me the same stuff as everything else, I'm tired of my smashes losing to aerials.

 

[Freezie KO]

Oh yeah... and can we get a grab that doesn't whiff at point blank range? That'd be nice too.

 

[NotAsian]

Isn't it only the dash grab that wiffs and point blank? I'm sick of NAIR beating our smash attacks you hit 1 button and that clanks with a powerful move?! WTF

 

[Myran]

Well Nair would always hit you that close I'd assume. Also I believe standing grab can whiff if they're walking right in front of you too.

 

[Freezie KO]

Standing grab can definitely whiff. Happens to me when getting pressured. If someone does an aerial into your shield, if they land really close (like on top of you), you can miss the shield grab.

 

[StripedNinja]

Oops, thanks for picking up on that typo @ Myran !

I remember thinking Olimar was difficult to play in Brawl.

I also remember thinking he was hard to play in Smash 4 but then Dabuz came second at Apex by just c-sticking with Olimar, so

Dabuz played Olimar in literally 2 sets, and LOST the harder set 3-0 specifically because that's all he did. Dabuz does not play Olimar optimally in this game. He plays him as a secondary and plays him the same as he did in Brawl. Brawl Olimar is not this Olimar. Research this a little more with actual Olimains and you'll see how "easy" he is.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Dabuz played Olimar in literally 2 sets, and LOST the harder set 3-0 specifically because that's all he did. Dabuz does not play Olimar optimally in this game. He plays him as a secondary and plays him the same as he did in Brawl. Brawl Olimar is not this Olimar. Research this a little more with actual Olimains and you'll see how "easy" he is.

Sorry, Brawl Olimar has more depth than this Olimar.

 

[Myran]

Sorry, Brawl Olimar has more depth than this Olimar.

Nice joke, got any others?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Nice joke, got any others?

Yeah,

Knock Knock

 

[StripedNinja]

Sorry, Brawl Olimar has more depth than this Olimar.

You serious? What change gave him less depth, the ability to strategize what pikmin you want in your line, the nerf to his spam game or the fact that he has a huge offstage game now? Or was it all the new combos he got? Or all the utility he gets out of the new pivot mechanics?

 

[Myran]

Yeah,

Knock Knock

Who's there?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Who's there?

People