Olimar Export

[#HBC | J]

Alright let's get to work Lucas'. We have a long way to go and a lot of MUs to discuss. We are going to be starting Olimar due to interest in this MU and the controversy in terms of this MU being really skewed in the MU Chart where it is -2. Let's dive straight into it.

Character: Olimar
Current BBR MU Rating: -2
Stages:
-Ban: Final Desination/Halberd/Delfino
-Strike: FD/YI/Lylat
-Counterpick: Brinstar/Frigate
Lucas Boards MU Rating: -1
MU Summaries.
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[collapse=MU Summaries]

Alright let's go into this MU with a bit of detail.

PATIENCE IS KEY. Do not even dare thinking that this MU is going to have you approaching this little man and his army without a plan in your head. You will be punishing Olimar's mistakes in this match-up for the most part and looking for openings to get into his face where we can do some damage.

Let's talk about the Pikmin Patrol.

Nair is great in this MU and definitely helps when getting into Olimar's face and messing him up a bit. It also helps with getting the Pikmin off of you when you need them off, however, Yellow pikmin are immune to Lucas' electric attacks so try to jab them off or some other quick way like Dtilt. You can get them off with Nair eventually, but if you want quickness there are other ways. These are probably the most annoying use of the yellow Pikmin. Fun trivia knowledge, our Dair loses to his Uair if he has a Yellow Pikmin out. Annoying eh? However, let's go into a plus into these annoying yellow guys. If you use Nair with them on you, it makes Nair lag and you can pull some tricks against Olimar in terms of getting him to drop his shield earlier. They also (along with all the other pikmin) make your Dsmash lag too so that leaves an option there.

Red pikmin are another thing, they make camping really annoying because they are immune to PK Fire unlike the rest of the other pikmin which you must be careful about but you can't really worry about it too much. Basically, be prepared to have some of your PK Fire's blocked by these annoying ones and they will just sail on through to latch onto you. *Then again a thing to remember, when your PKF hits a pikmin it hits them like it hits an object/player so the splash will come out* Watch out for a Red Pikmin Fair and the Red Pikmin is the third strongest out of them all if memory serves (and assuming Blue/Purple are stronger).

White pikmin, they can rack up damage...quick. They are by far the weakest and the least to worry about in terms of worrying about smashes/grabs from these pikmin but the fact is, they are still annoying if they get attached to you due to their poison. Not much to really worry about with White due to the other pikmin being a bigger threat/nuisance.

Purple Pikmin. Oh for the love of goodness, these are probably the most annoying in dealing with this MU. They are strong and they block us from having an easy way to get into Olimar's face. You will have to watch where these things fly because if you are offstage and Olimar throws with good enough aim, you can find yourself in a worse place than you were before. Purple Pikmin are just the bane of this MU in terms of approaching. Lucky for us, they have the shortest range for grabs. The bad thing is, you get grabbed at high percentages you will possibly be losing a stock dependent on DI/stage. Regardless, watch out for these guys. Uthrow is really strong.

Blue pikmin. I really do not have too too much to say on them besides when you are grabbed by these guys, it is intensely annoying. They are the second strongest Pikmin and really a pikmin to be afraid of in terms of getting hit at higher percentages. Great Bthrow and Fthrow with Blues.

Now that the patrol is out of the way, let's work at Olimar's game and how he incorporates these guys against us.

This MU will result in a camping match of Olimar being defensive because he does not want to get into a face to face battle with Lucas where he can be messed up more than do damage. He is playing a similar strategy to us except he has a much better camping game then us.

Great tip for fighting Olimar, get him in the air or offstage. That is where you will do wonders in this MU. PKT messes with Olimar offstage and at the minimum, with good control, you will be racking up damage. Remember, Olimar's recovery fails if you grab the ledge but be careful of the dreaded stage spike if you do not do this correctly. SH Uair is a blessing to have at your disposal.

Grabbing is a neat little mix-up but his grab is leagues better than ours so it's not really recommended to use your grab in this MU because if you mess up, Olimar gets to have a little field day with us. Speaking of Grabs, Olimar's pivot grab is omg god-like. Never ever chase a running Olimar, the chance of you getting pivot grabbed is much higher than you would think.

His smashes are all annoying and are great at getting us back out of his face. The only tilt I see Olimar's use to get people out is Utilt and it's semi-annoying but not as much as his smashes. Trivia: Do not SDI out of Utilt, you will most likely be at the receiving end of a Dsmash if you do. SDI our of his Nair though.

Olimar's Fsmash/Dsmash/Usmash are great kill moves (moreso Usmash/Dsmash depending on the pikmin out) and can kill us at like 85-90 with even proper DI *once again, dependent on Pikmin* which is a really scary though which again, I will stress PATIENCE. Greediness will hurt you more than not. So be careful and make sure you are thinking wisely with your moves when getting close to Olimar.

Let's talk approaching now. Wait for the opening and when you get the chance, go for it and throw that little man around for a bit. Dair is a great approach in this MU, the only down-side is because he is so short it can make hitting him with it semi-annoying. Nair->Jab is decent as usual to do but mix-it up.

Lucky for us, Olimar is light as all get out which means we can kill him at earlier percentages. And even if we don't kill him with out smashes, we can set him into positions he would rather not be like offstage or in the air.

When Olimar is in the air, we have a huge advantage against him especially when we are below him due to Uair being well-timed and even when he is coming back down to the ground, he has a hard time landing. Olimar's good move to use while landing is usually Nair and you can at least get a good jab/ftilt/pivot grab if timed properly on his landing. Gotta mind-game that a bit though.

PK Fire is really great to annoy Olimar with in between his camping game and also giving him an annoying thing that is horizontally coming at him. It will make him approaching annoying and also gives a bit of the shove back to his camping game.

I'm going to try and write a conclusion to this entire thing. This MU is going to be a long one, but it's definitely not a disadvantage. If anything, it could be a -1 due to Olimar having to make us approach but it's not that big of a deal in terms of dealing with his camping. Lucas can get in just by being patient. I'll say it again, it's going to be a long drawn out fight or a really short one dependent on the speed of it all. Pick your opportunities to go after Olimar and make the best of them because if you do, it could be the change of the fight. However, Olimar has the same thing where if he can get his grubby little hands on us, we can be seeing damage being wracked up greatly. Watch the guy's pikmin order when you are reaching higher percentages because it could mean the difference between a stock or not. This is actually a MU where I would recommend using Dsmash a little more liberally than not in terms of when Olimar is landing/pikmin attached and the like. Fsmash is still a great killer as per usual.

Mathematical information:

Dair->Dtilt lock: 65% *yes, that low*
Dthrow kill potential: 135% (iirc, I can't find the thread. It is low though compared to the standard 150%)

Overall, this MU is really dependent on players simply being able to out-play the others. My honest opinion on the MU is an even 0, however, I can live with a -1 do to he can keep us out. On certain stages though, it is a lot easier fighting him.

Here is the most recent video I could find of a good fight/example of the MU which is of Pink vs. Logic. Really close fight and the ending is just hearbreaking.

Which reminds me, that damn whistle and it's supergaurd thing is annoying to deal with on occasions. Just remember he has it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP6jxLUn4lc

Pink Fresh vs. Logic (2011)

Great match and showcases a bit of what I would like to say about this MU.

When talking about stages, I would strike YI/Final Destination. FD is probably Olimar's best stage if I can remember because of it just being completely flat and works to his advantage. Only positive I can think of for this MU is higher ceilings, even then with his powerful smashes, isn't that much of a plus.

Consider banning stages like Halberd or Delphino because those stages can really get annoying in this MU. FD is another good option.

Counterpicking, you want places where you can do more and annoy Olimar. Stages without ledges to grab on always are nervewracking for him so Frigate and Rainbow are options for counterpicking him. Go to Brinstar on your own dime. Yes, you will do well here, but Olimar can kill you ridiculously earlier. However, his camp game isn't as good here as others.

That's my input on the Olimar MU. ^^

Mekos vs Logic, just thought i should include these.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y-G23Fkzww
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKVUwF9XsXY

Btw Red Pikmin are the best for aerials (apart from purps). they do they most % im sure. (im not sure)

To avoid the stage spike when Olimar is recovering, ever so slightly (lol) hold up, and you should just get whacked up due to DI.

Olimar has no shield armour either.

Try to home run (reflect) some white pikmin.

Olimar can spike our PKT2 i think with a yellow pikmin or just good spacing.

try to dtilt olimar down and off the ledge, then grab it real quick (if youve eaten his dj) for a flashy gimp. some players will DI under a stage then just miss the ledge altogether.

Jab + dtilt mixups > Fsmash is amazing since hes so light and is usually at the edge of the stage.

personally im not sure whether it is a -1 or a -2, as lucas has some gimmicks, but olimar is hard to approach. ill need more mu experience D:

Gonna do this mafia style X:

Using J's post as a foundation for mine, anytime I say "you" it's directed at Lucas as a character, haha. That's not entirely true. Electric attacks will not actually force pikmin off of you, however the act of performing a nair can. The way pikmin latch works is that the amount of time the pikmin stays latched onto you is based on your percentage when it first makes contact. Iirc it's 169 frames at 0% and one less for each percentage (with a minimum of ~70, I forget the number). The amount of time the pikmin stays on you is reduced further in the same way that breaking out of a grab is. The more controller inputs you make (whether they're buttons or either of the sticks) reduce the frames further. So that might be why you'd think the nair's getting the yellows off faster than if they just naturally fell off without you doing anything at all.

Are you talking about damage or knockback? Reds do the most damage out of everything except for throws, which they're not so good at. If you're talking about knockback, they're the second strongest in that regard. Purples have more knockback in everything, but reds have more knockback than blues, other than throws.

Yep, pretty much this. They do a stupid amount of damage if they latch on, but that's their only use, really. They're terrible.

Be careful if the Olimar starts storing up purples. Don't be afraid to go out of your way to kill them if he throws them towards you carelessly. Doing sixteen damage or more should kill the pikmin and most stages supply Olimar with less purples than the other four colors. That said, keep in mind that Olimar will oftentimes pick a stage that will give him more of these (or perhaps more yellows, or both). One more thing regarding purples, watch his line for them constantly. It's nowhere nearly as important to watch for red/blue/yellow as it is to watch for purples. It'll save you a lot of headache, and there will be a few options that the Olimar can't take as easily when it's coming up. When whites are coming up you should be able to take advantage of it, since the Olimar's options will be severely limited.

A common misconception. Blue upthrow actually has more knockback and kills earlier than the forward and back versions. If you're next to the ledge, that's a different story. But expect an upthrow to kill just as early, if not earlier, than the others. It's harder to DI than the others too. Blues do almost as much damage/knockback as reds for smashes and aerials. For throws, blues do the most damage (12% on dthrow, 14% on bthrow). Blues will be very valuable to Olimar no matter what the matchup, they're the all-around pikmin, good at almost everything.


The trick is to not hit Olimar with the PKT until after his UpB has made contact with the ledge, but before (or during which) he pulls himself to the ledge. If you hit Olimar too early with the PKT and he knows how to DI it well enough, you'll only come ahead with a few percents on him and won't have the opportunity to ledge hog him.

An emphasis should be put on getting him into the air, though. Olimar's options on landing are very poor. The time frame between half a second before he lands to right when he lands is a very vulnerable moment and is where you'll be able to mess him up the most. Take advantage of this. Keep the juggle going.


Tip. Be careful spamming Nair/Dair too close to Olimar on his shield without landing fast enough to cover yourself. Up Smash Oos punishes a lot of things you wouldn't expect it to. Doesn't even have to be a yellow. It's stupid.

Oh cool didn't know you covered this, haha. On this topic though, be careful for nair -> usmash. It's difficult to DI out of and doing so is different based on where you are in relation to him when he hits you. If you're already near the ground, it's smarter to smash DI down to get solid footing and try to shield the smash instead of trying to get out of it entirely (you won't).

I agree, mostly. -1 for Lucas, but I could see arguments for -2.

And that it lasts longer than you'd normally think. Frames 2-16 out of 20.

FD, Smashville, BF, YI (relatively, based on the bumps), PS1, Lylat (relatively, based on the tilting) all have the same ceiling height. I agree with FD definitely being a stage you'd want to strike, though. However, FD isn't that great of a stage for the spaceman. In this matchup, perhaps, but not in general. Halberd and Delfino are the general consensus on being his best stages. Battlefield, Lylat and Castle Siege are thought by most to be great stages for him. FD in certain matchups (this one included) is really good, though. But Olimar needs platforms, both for making approaches easier to counter (which he's already good at) and providing an escape route when he finds himself in trouble. Olimar is very, very stage dependent for matchups, though. We're probably not going to counterpick you to battlefield, for example. And many Olimars have varying stage preferences. Some hate smashville and thinks it's his worst neutral (I'm one of those guys, haha) and some hope you'll take them to Rainbow Cruise or Frigate.

In my opinion, counterpicking Brinstar would be a better bet than Rainbow. RC gives him the option of running away constantly, taking advantage of the stage layout to make your approach even more difficult against him. It also puts you in an unfamiliar setting, since even though you may know how to play on Rainbow Cruise, you likely won't be as familiar playing the approach game against Olimar on Rainbow Cruise. It's stupid.

Last bit from me for awhile. Olimar is not a character, don't think of him as one. He's a minigame that you have to learn, prepare for and familiarize yourself with. If you're going into the matchup treating him like he's anything but this, you'll come out of the match with a headache. But once you learn the direction you're suippose to take, the rules of the minigame, it's a whole different story. Getting to that point is the first step in the matchup.

Most attacks will cancel Olimar's pikmin attacks, upsmash in particular. Reason being the Pikmin have hurtboxes, and the hitboxes aren't very much larger than their hurtboxes. If you hit the pikmin before the hitbox makes contact with you, it'll lose its hitbox. Just about anything with range (your your nair, dair, etc) should work for this. I'm not entirely sure how it works for Olimar's aerials (I know they still have hurtboxes and can lose their hitboxes, but that's the extent of what I know). The only pikmin attacks in which they don't have a hurtbox are pikmin chain and grab.

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[#HBC | J]

Alright let's go into this MU with a bit of detail.

PATIENCE IS KEY. Do not even dare thinking that this MU is going to have you approaching this little man and his army without a plan in your head. You will be punishing Olimar's mistakes in this match-up for the most part and looking for openings to get into his face where we can do some damage.

Let's talk about the Pikmin Patrol.

Nair is great in this MU and definitely helps when getting into Olimar's face and messing him up a bit. It also helps with getting the Pikmin off of you when you need them off, however, Yellow pikmin are immune to Lucas' electric attacks so try to jab them off or some other quick way like Dtilt. You can get them off with Nair eventually, but if you want quickness there are other ways. These are probably the most annoying use of the yellow Pikmin. Fun trivia knowledge, our Dair loses to his Uair if he has a Yellow Pikmin out. Annoying eh? However, let's go into a plus into these annoying yellow guys. If you use Nair with them on you, it makes Nair lag and you can pull some tricks against Olimar in terms of getting him to drop his shield earlier. They also (along with all the other pikmin) make your Dsmash lag too so that leaves an option there.

Red pikmin are another thing, they make camping really annoying because they are immune to PK Fire unlike the rest of the other pikmin which you must be careful about but you can't really worry about it too much. Basically, be prepared to have some of your PK Fire's blocked by these annoying ones and they will just sail on through to latch onto you. *Then again a thing to remember, when your PKF hits a pikmin it hits them like it hits an object/player so the splash will come out* Watch out for a Red Pikmin Fair and the Red Pikmin is the third strongest out of them all if memory serves (and assuming Blue/Purple are stronger).

White pikmin, they can rack up damage...quick. They are by far the weakest and the least to worry about in terms of worrying about smashes/grabs from these pikmin but the fact is, they are still annoying if they get attached to you due to their poison. Not much to really worry about with White due to the other pikmin being a bigger threat/nuisance.

Purple Pikmin. Oh for the love of goodness, these are probably the most annoying in dealing with this MU. They are strong and they block us from having an easy way to get into Olimar's face. You will have to watch where these things fly because if you are offstage and Olimar throws with good enough aim, you can find yourself in a worse place than you were before. Purple Pikmin are just the bane of this MU in terms of approaching. Lucky for us, they have the shortest range for grabs. The bad thing is, you get grabbed at high percentages you will possibly be losing a stock dependent on DI/stage. Regardless, watch out for these guys. Uthrow is really strong.

Blue pikmin. I really do not have too too much to say on them besides when you are grabbed by these guys, it is intensely annoying. They are the second strongest Pikmin and really a pikmin to be afraid of in terms of getting hit at higher percentages. Great Bthrow and Fthrow with Blues.

Now that the patrol is out of the way, let's work at Olimar's game and how he incorporates these guys against us.

This MU will result in a camping match of Olimar being defensive because he does not want to get into a face to face battle with Lucas where he can be messed up more than do damage. He is playing a similar strategy to us except he has a much better camping game then us.

Great tip for fighting Olimar, get him in the air or offstage. That is where you will do wonders in this MU. PKT messes with Olimar offstage and at the minimum, with good control, you will be racking up damage. Remember, Olimar's recovery fails if you grab the ledge but be careful of the dreaded stage spike if you do not do this correctly. SH Uair is a blessing to have at your disposal.

Grabbing is a neat little mix-up but his grab is leagues better than ours so it's not really recommended to use your grab in this MU because if you mess up, Olimar gets to have a little field day with us. Speaking of Grabs, Olimar's pivot grab is omg god-like. Never ever chase a running Olimar, the chance of you getting pivot grabbed is much higher than you would think.

His smashes are all annoying and are great at getting us back out of his face. The only tilt I see Olimar's use to get people out is Utilt and it's semi-annoying but not as much as his smashes. Trivia: Do not SDI out of Utilt, you will most likely be at the receiving end of a Dsmash if you do. SDI our of his Nair though.

Olimar's Fsmash/Dsmash/Usmash are great kill moves (moreso Usmash/Dsmash depending on the pikmin out) and can kill us at like 85-90 with even proper DI *once again, dependent on Pikmin* which is a really scary though which again, I will stress PATIENCE. Greediness will hurt you more than not. So be careful and make sure you are thinking wisely with your moves when getting close to Olimar.

Let's talk approaching now. Wait for the opening and when you get the chance, go for it and throw that little man around for a bit. Dair is a great approach in this MU, the only down-side is because he is so short it can make hitting him with it semi-annoying. Nair->Jab is decent as usual to do but mix-it up.

Lucky for us, Olimar is light as all get out which means we can kill him at earlier percentages. And even if we don't kill him with out smashes, we can set him into positions he would rather not be like offstage or in the air.

When Olimar is in the air, we have a huge advantage against him especially when we are below him due to Uair being well-timed and even when he is coming back down to the ground, he has a hard time landing. Olimar's good move to use while landing is usually Nair and you can at least get a good jab/ftilt/pivot grab if timed properly on his landing. Gotta mind-game that a bit though.

PK Fire is really great to annoy Olimar with in between his camping game and also giving him an annoying thing that is horizontally coming at him. It will make him approaching annoying and also gives a bit of the shove back to his camping game.

I'm going to try and write a conclusion to this entire thing. This MU is going to be a long one, but it's definitely not a disadvantage. If anything, it could be a -1 due to Olimar having to make us approach but it's not that big of a deal in terms of dealing with his camping. Lucas can get in just by being patient. I'll say it again, it's going to be a long drawn out fight or a really short one dependent on the speed of it all. Pick your opportunities to go after Olimar and make the best of them because if you do, it could be the change of the fight. However, Olimar has the same thing where if he can get his grubby little hands on us, we can be seeing damage being wracked up greatly. Watch the guy's pikmin order when you are reaching higher percentages because it could mean the difference between a stock or not. This is actually a MU where I would recommend using Dsmash a little more liberally than not in terms of when Olimar is landing/pikmin attached and the like. Fsmash is still a great killer as per usual.

Mathematical information:

Dair->Dtilt lock: 65% *yes, that low*
Dthrow kill potential: 135% (iirc, I can't find the thread. It is low though compared to the standard 150%)

Overall, this MU is really dependent on players simply being able to out-play the others. My honest opinion on the MU is an even 0, however, I can live with a -1 do to he can keep us out. On certain stages though, it is a lot easier fighting him.

Here is the most recent video I could find of a good fight/example of the MU which is of Pink vs. Logic. Really close fight and the ending is just hearbreaking.

Which reminds me, that damn whistle and it's supergaurd thing is annoying to deal with on occasions. Just remember he has it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP6jxLUn4lc

Pink Fresh vs. Logic (2011)

Great match and showcases a bit of what I would like to say about this MU.

When talking about stages, I would strike YI/Final Destination. FD is probably Olimar's best stage if I can remember because of it just being completely flat and works to his advantage. Only positive I can think of for this MU is higher ceilings, even then with his powerful smashes, isn't that much of a plus.

Consider banning stages like Halberd or Delphino because those stages can really get annoying in this MU. FD is another good option.

Counterpicking, you want places where you can do more and annoy Olimar. Stages without ledges to grab on always are nervewracking for him so Frigate and Rainbow are options for counterpicking him. Go to Brinstar on your own dime. Yes, you will do well here, but Olimar can kill you ridiculously earlier. However, his camp game isn't as good here as others.

That's my input on the Olimar MU. ^^

 

[Jamwa]

Mekos vs Logic, just thought i should include these.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y-G23Fkzww
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKVUwF9XsXY

Btw Red Pikmin are the best for aerials (apart from purps). they do they most % im sure. (im not sure)

To avoid the stage spike when Olimar is recovering, ever so slightly (lol) hold up, and you should just get whacked up due to DI.

Olimar has no shield armour either.

Try to home run (reflect) some white pikmin.

Olimar can spike our PKT2 i think with a yellow pikmin or just good spacing.

try to dtilt olimar down and off the ledge, then grab it real quick (if youve eaten his dj) for a flashy gimp. some players will DI under a stage then just miss the ledge altogether.

Jab + dtilt mixups > Fsmash is amazing since hes so light and is usually at the edge of the stage.

personally im not sure whether it is a -1 or a -2, as lucas has some gimmicks, but olimar is hard to approach. ill need more mu experience D:

 

[yoshi8984]

I have no MU experience as I haven't played an Oli yet but...

Isn't Oli's U-Throw stronger than his F-Throw? =P

If Frigate is CP'd we want to keep the pressure to the right?

Anyways, good job writing this up J, really helps.

 

[#HBC | J]

Yes, you will want to keep pressure to the right of the stage and I don't think Oli's Fthrow is stronger than his Upthrow dependent on Pikmin.

No problem at all haha, I really do hope this helps with the Oli MU.

 

[yoshi8984]

Well I thought Blue/Purple Pikmin U-Throws and B-Throws are his kill throws, but not his F-Throw.

 

[#HBC | J]

His back-throw and up-throw are definitely his kill throws with Blue/Purple but F-throw can be annoying.

I don't think it's a garunteed kill-throw like his other two at certain percentages.

 

[Luco]

I hate versing a good olimar because if the stage is even and I don't time my SH PKF well enough, it goes straight over his head. Literally. Oli's the only character I know of who can just stand there while you desperately try to SH PKF. You have to actually time this one if you want to hit him.

If an olimar is looking at his pikmin and thinking about what is best to do with each one, that makes it even worse (my brother is a god at doing this).

J has it though, when you do get in, that's where you outright destroy him. Keep putting the pressure on and you can rack up sooooo much with percentage. After that it's just a well-timed Smash and you've probably got the stock, if you haven't already edgeguarded him.

I like using PKT1 when he's offstage, it's good to rack up damage and can really annoy him when he's using his upB to grab the ledge. It can kill him too if used properly.

Anyway, the main thing here is to watch out for his pikmin. The plus side is, if by some mistake he runs out of pikmin and you get him in to the air... He's yours.

 

[#HBC | J]

I posted in the Olimar boards to hopefully get some insight from their side of the fence. So yay for that.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Gonna do this mafia style X:

Using J's post as a foundation for mine, anytime I say "you" it's directed at Lucas as a character, haha.

Nair is great in this MU and definitely helps when getting into Olimar's face and messing him up a bit. It also helps with getting the Pikmin off of you when you need them off, however, Yellow pikmin are immune to Lucas' electric attacks so try to jab them off or some other quick way like Dtilt. You can get them off with Nair eventually, but if you want quickness there are other ways.

That's not entirely true. Electric attacks will not actually force pikmin off of you, however the act of performing a nair can. The way pikmin latch works is that the amount of time the pikmin stays latched onto you is based on your percentage when it first makes contact. Iirc it's 169 frames at 0% and one less for each percentage (with a minimum of ~70, I forget the number). The amount of time the pikmin stays on you is reduced further in the same way that breaking out of a grab is. The more controller inputs you make (whether they're buttons or either of the sticks) reduce the frames further. So that might be why you'd think the nair's getting the yellows off faster than if they just naturally fell off without you doing anything at all.

Red Red Pikmin is the third strongest out of them all if memory serves (and assuming Blue/Purple are stronger).

Are you talking about damage or knockback? Reds do the most damage out of everything except for throws, which they're not so good at. If you're talking about knockback, they're the second strongest in that regard. Purples have more knockback in everything, but reds have more knockback than blues, other than throws.

White pikmin, they can rack up damage...quick. They are by far the weakest and the least to worry about in terms of worrying about smashes/grabs from these pikmin but the fact is, they are still annoying if they get attached to you due to their poison. Not much to really worry about with White due to the other pikmin being a bigger threat/nuisance.

Yep, pretty much this. They do a stupid amount of damage if they latch on, but that's their only use, really. They're terrible.

Purple Pikmin. Oh for the love of goodness, these are probably the most annoying in dealing with this MU. They are strong and they block us from having an easy way to get into Olimar's face. You will have to watch where these things fly because if you are offstage and Olimar throws with good enough aim, you can find yourself in a worse place than you were before. Purple Pikmin are just the bane of this MU in terms of approaching. Lucky for us, they have the shortest range for grabs. The bad thing is, you get grabbed at high percentages you will possibly be losing a stock dependent on DI/stage. Regardless, watch out for these guys. Uthrow is really strong.

Be careful if the Olimar starts storing up purples. Don't be afraid to go out of your way to kill them if he throws them towards you carelessly. Doing sixteen damage or more should kill the pikmin and most stages supply Olimar with less purples than the other four colors. That said, keep in mind that Olimar will oftentimes pick a stage that will give him more of these (or perhaps more yellows, or both). One more thing regarding purples, watch his line for them constantly. It's nowhere nearly as important to watch for red/blue/yellow as it is to watch for purples. It'll save you a lot of headache, and there will be a few options that the Olimar can't take as easily when it's coming up. When whites are coming up you should be able to take advantage of it, since the Olimar's options will be severely limited.

Blue pikmin. I really do not have too too much to say on them besides when you are grabbed by these guys, it is intensely annoying. They are the second strongest Pikmin and really a pikmin to be afraid of in terms of getting hit at higher percentages. Great Bthrow and Fthrow with Blues.

A common misconception. Blue upthrow actually has more knockback and kills earlier than the forward and back versions. If you're next to the ledge, that's a different story. But expect an upthrow to kill just as early, if not earlier, than the others. It's harder to DI than the others too. Blues do almost as much damage/knockback as reds for smashes and aerials. For throws, blues do the most damage (12% on dthrow, 14% on bthrow). Blues will be very valuable to Olimar no matter what the matchup, they're the all-around pikmin, good at almost everything.

Great tip for fighting Olimar, get him in the air or offstage. That is where you will do wonders in this MU. PKT messes with Olimar offstage and at the minimum, with good control, you will be racking up damage. Remember, Olimar's recovery fails if you grab the ledge but be careful of the dreaded stage spike if you do not do this correctly. SH Uair is a blessing to have at your disposal.

The trick is to not hit Olimar with the PKT until after his UpB has made contact with the ledge, but before (or during which) he pulls himself to the ledge. If you hit Olimar too early with the PKT and he knows how to DI it well enough, you'll only come ahead with a few percents on him and won't have the opportunity to ledge hog him.

An emphasis should be put on getting him into the air, though. Olimar's options on landing are very poor. The time frame between half a second before he lands to right when he lands is a very vulnerable moment and is where you'll be able to mess him up the most. Take advantage of this. Keep the juggle going.

His smashes are all annoying and are great at getting us back out of his face. The only tilt I see Olimar's use to get people out is Utilt and it's semi-annoying but not as much as his smashes. Trivia: Do not SDI out of Utilt, you will most likely be at the receiving end of a Dsmash if you do. SDI our of his Nair though.

Tip. Be careful spamming Nair/Dair too close to Olimar on his shield without landing fast enough to cover yourself. Up Smash Oos punishes a lot of things you wouldn't expect it to. Doesn't even have to be a yellow. It's stupid.

When Olimar is in the air, we have a huge advantage against him especially when we are below him due to Uair being well-timed and even when he is coming back down to the ground, he has a hard time landing. Olimar's good move to use while landing is usually Nair and you can at least get a good jab/ftilt/pivot grab if timed properly on his landing. Gotta mind-game that a bit though.

Oh cool didn't know you covered this, haha. On this topic though, be careful for nair -> usmash. It's difficult to DI out of and doing so is different based on where you are in relation to him when he hits you. If you're already near the ground, it's smarter to smash DI down to get solid footing and try to shield the smash instead of trying to get out of it entirely (you won't).

I'm going to try and write a conclusion to this entire thing. This MU is going to be a long one, but it's definitely not a disadvantage. If anything, it could be a -1 due to Olimar having to make us approach but it's not that big of a deal in terms of dealing with his camping.

I agree, mostly. -1 for Lucas, but I could see arguments for -2.

Which reminds me, that damn whistle and it's supergaurd thing is annoying to deal with on occasions. Just remember he has it.

And that it lasts longer than you'd normally think. Frames 2-16 out of 20.

When talking about stages, I would strike YI/Final Destination. FD is probably Olimar's best stage if I can remember because of it just being completely flat and works to his advantage. Only positive I can think of for this MU is higher ceilings, even then with his powerful smashes, isn't that much of a plus.

FD, Smashville, BF, YI (relatively, based on the bumps), PS1, Lylat (relatively, based on the tilting) all have the same ceiling height. I agree with FD definitely being a stage you'd want to strike, though. However, FD isn't that great of a stage for the spaceman. In this matchup, perhaps, but not in general. Halberd and Delfino are the general consensus on being his best stages. Battlefield, Lylat and Castle Siege are thought by most to be great stages for him. FD in certain matchups (this one included) is really good, though. But Olimar needs platforms, both for making approaches easier to counter (which he's already good at) and providing an escape route when he finds himself in trouble. Olimar is very, very stage dependent for matchups, though. We're probably not going to counterpick you to battlefield, for example. And many Olimars have varying stage preferences. Some hate smashville and thinks it's his worst neutral (I'm one of those guys, haha) and some hope you'll take them to Rainbow Cruise or Frigate.

Counterpicking, you want places where you can do more and annoy Olimar. Stages without ledges to grab on always are nervewracking for him so Frigate and Rainbow are options for counterpicking him. Go to Brinstar on your own dime. Yes, you will do well here, but Olimar can kill you ridiculously earlier. However, his camp game isn't as good here as others.

In my opinion, counterpicking Brinstar would be a better bet than Rainbow. RC gives him the option of running away constantly, taking advantage of the stage layout to make your approach even more difficult against him. It also puts you in an unfamiliar setting, since even though you may know how to play on Rainbow Cruise, you likely won't be as familiar playing the approach game against Olimar on Rainbow Cruise. It's stupid.

Last bit from me for awhile. Olimar is not a character, don't think of him as one. He's a minigame that you have to learn, prepare for and familiarize yourself with. If you're going into the matchup treating him like he's anything but this, you'll come out of the match with a headache. But once you learn the direction you're suippose to take, the rules of the minigame, it's a whole different story. Getting to that point is the first step in the matchup.

 

[#HBC | J]

I honestly chuckled at the "doing this mafia style bit". xD I'm just gonna comment on a few things here and there.

Are you talking about damage or knockback? Reds do the most damage out of everything except for throws, which they're not so good at. If you're talking about knockback, they're the second strongest in that regard. Purples have more knockback in everything, but reds have more knockback than blues, other than throws.

What I was talking about was throwing haha. Red do do the most damage but throwing is not something to worry about too much from from the Reds.

A common misconception. Blue upthrow actually has more knockback and kills earlier than the forward and back versions. If you're next to the ledge, that's a different story. But expect an upthrow to kill just as early, if not earlier, than the others. It's harder to DI than the others too. Blues do almost as much damage/knockback as reds for smashes and aerials. For throws, blues do the most damage (12% on dthrow, 14% on bthrow). Blues will be very valuable to Olimar no matter what the matchup, they're the all-around pikmin, good at almost everything.

Huh, that is very interesting to know. I usually see/observe Olimar's going for the Bthrow with their blues but I didn't know that. Thanks.

And that it lasts longer than you'd normally think. Frames 2-16 out of 20.

Uuuuuuugh that's more annoying than I remember.


Anyways, thank you very much for your input Hilt and it is very greatly appreciated! It definitely provides insight from your side and helps us understand things more from Oli's PoV. Plus, I even got to learn some more stuff.

 

[Jamwa]

do we know data like which of our moves cancel out his pikmin moves? eg ness nair stops olimars usmash, and continues to hit oli

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Most attacks will cancel Olimar's pikmin attacks, upsmash in particular. Reason being the Pikmin have hurtboxes, and the hitboxes aren't very much larger than their hurtboxes. If you hit the pikmin before the hitbox makes contact with you, it'll lose its hitbox. Just about anything with range (your your nair, dair, etc) should work for this. I'm not entirely sure how it works for Olimar's aerials (I know they still have hurtboxes and can lose their hitboxes, but that's the extent of what I know). The only pikmin attacks in which they don't have a hurtbox are pikmin chain and grab.

 

[#HBC | J]

So are we content leaving this at a -1? I feel that's the common agreement here.