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Okay, to end this pointless banter...

Engage

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People who keep seeing this new patch as a "failure" and a "mistake on Sakurai daddy san's side. . ." are so sadly wrong. This patch is great, it fixed things that made matches become as one sided as Fox / Falco matches were back in Melee when chain grabs were involved. Also, these fixes are phenomenal, they fixed the things that were otherwise GAME BREAKING, and they also changed A WHOLE WAY OF THE GAME WORKING, and brought back a feature MANY PEOPLE were wanting to return. . . Welcome home, Directional Influence. (not confirmed yet, but debated!) Vectoring has been removed from Smash 4 as a whole, but in return, Directional Influence (or, DI) has been brought back, allowing us to play the game a whole different way, AND not have to worry about Wario becoming the new "Deep Kong" around here, letting him recover from Tokyo to New York. Realize, they removed Vectoring and (Wectoring as you people called it for Wario), which involved removing a WHOLE SYSTEM from their game, and replacing it with an old one (for DI support). (Again, THIS IS NOT CONFIRMED YET.)

Now, onto the 'banter' in the opening headline: Someone was very unhappy about their main (Greninja and Toon Link) getting nerfed like they did, he says it "changed my meta game and mind on Smash 4 as a whole." Now, this made my palm exercise extended force upon my face (face palm), because ARE YOU KIDDING ME, MATE? Smash 4 has only been around for 2 MONTHS, and people found out some pretty game breaking tricks in 2 MONTHS. "Shadow Sneak cancelling for Greninja put the other character at an unfair advantage, if you whiffed an attack with long lag on it, while Greninja does a laggy aerial like down air but then Shadow Sneak cancels out of it, he can punish you like a masochi-- like a professional." As a great youtube commenter once said: "That's the community."

And along with that, someone else also complained about Toon Link's and regular Link's and even Peach's (Toss cancelling) being removed, now, to you all who don't know what that is, it's when you can do ANY aerial in the game besides Up special and Down special. You could do it from a neutral special aerial, side special aerial, Fair, Dair, Uair, Bair, Nair, any attack that has lag on it or some at all, and you could cancel the lag automatically into a throwing of your bomb with Link(s) or your Turnip with Peach, causing again, UNBALANCED match ups. It gave Link WAY MORE OPTIONS than it should of, because he could arrow you, then bomb you, then run in and follow up with something that's not supposed to work in that order THAT FAST. Or it even gave Peach a 0 - Death (from 0% to 130%+ and a free Kill) set up combo. Which again, got patched along with Toss Cancelling being patched, and I'm glad to see it go, as I never even played Smash 4 yet, but as a player who has seen how annoyingly broken it can be, I'm just happy it's gone.

Now, I approve of the BUFFS they put in place too, Falco's Lazer being shot faster (want to see a video of this though!), Shulk's monado being stronger on every attack by at least 2% - 3%, Yoshi getting more damage on his Dair?! (Also, Yoshi's Egg teleport and Hyper Ground Pound are gone.) And also, the removal of Hyper Rollout with Jiggly Puff is always welcome, it wasn't game breaking and just seemed harmless but when it happens and you're at a high %, it becomes (shiver). One of my favorite things they didn't remove, just nerfed though, is Rush Cancelling and Thunder Cancelling (Look these up). Rush cancelling isn't removed, you just can't do it on the first frame anymore, it has to be on about the 3rd or 4th frame of Megaman being hurt now, so you gotta spam that Up B A LOT faster now for it to activate, but it's there still. And Thunder Cancelling is the same, on a different frame of Pikachu being hurt.

Now, I hope this clears up why Sakurai does what he does though, I mean look at all the stuff you people found in 2 MONTHS of the game being out, I'm sure it'll be 2 - 3 months more until you all find out MORE stuff, besides, not all advanced techs are gone. Sheik still can bouncing fish technique all over the place, from using it to "Platform skip" or "Platform hop" to some insane onstage off stage tactics. There's so many more "techniques" to be found and evolved into a Metagame, you won't believe. And as someone else said, I'm sure there won't be patches every 2 months because of the fact that when the Wii U game is out in 2 days, Sakurai will most likely be wanting to rest up and take a breather. Give the game a chance to 'live', unlike people who want Smash 4 modded to be like other Smash mods ALREADY, like are you people that obsessed with Super Melee Brothers that you can't give a BRAND NEW GAME time to evolve? Yeesh, anyways, thanks for reading if you did this far, you deserve a medal.
 
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Hayzie

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5 paragraphs to end a pointless banter? tl;dr :psycho:
 

Hayzie

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Put into separate paragraphs for the lazy people to skip ahead and find something they're interested in.
Well paragraphs are a necessity when writing something very long. My point is you try to end a banter with another banter. Thanks for sharing your opinion on the changes you seem to enjoy. You never know, those might get changed to ones you don't like in the future. It's good they're caring for Smash much, much more than they have for Brawl.
 

Engage

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Well paragraphs are a necessity when writing something very long. My point is you try to end a banter with another banter. Thanks for sharing your opinion on the changes you seem to enjoy. You never know, those might get changed to ones you don't like in the future. It's good they're caring for Smash much, much more than they have for Brawl.
It's not that I won't like any change, because I'm certain they won't change anything to the point where it's a more visually appealing Brawl, but the same gameplay as it.

I agree though, Smash 4 needs the care, i'm not writing it in Paragraphs, more like, different sections for different people. Some appeal to Link, some to Greninja, some to other.
 

AngeloHollow

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Which part in specific?

Or do you mean the patch for Smash 4, in topic?
Well, I appreciate the game is getting patched and loved myself, but you can't please everybody. People will whine about their mains being nerfed. However, people will find any reason to complain or nitpick at stuff in the game regardless of how much good any of this actually does.

I guess I'm just saying to be careful what you say, because this may attract others who will berate your opinion for any reason.
 

Hayzie

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It's not that I won't like any change, because I'm certain they won't change anything to the point where it's a more visually appealing Brawl, but the same gameplay as it.

I agree though, Smash 4 needs the care, i'm not writing it in Paragraphs, more like, different sections for different people. Some appeal to Link, some to Greninja, some to other.
Let's hope there's more buffs and tweaks to come. Some characters already feel that much better. I'm pretty sure it won't be the last, but I hope they just don't make this a "first few months" type of thing :)
 

Comeback Kid

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I'm sorry, but vectoring has been replaced with directional influence?

Do you have a link for that or are you talking out of your behind?
 

Engage

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Well, I appreciate the game is getting patched and loved myself, but you can't please everybody. People will whine about their mains being nerfed. However, people will find any reason to complain or nitpick at stuff in the game regardless of how much good any of this actually does.

I guess I'm just saying to be careful what you say, because this may attract others who will berate your opinion for any reason.
I agree wholeheartedly there will always be people who will not just find a work around, I found many work arounds to play with Kirby in Brawl when he was changed so much from Melee, and I didn't complain a bit.
 

Engage

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I just wish people didnt bite Sakurais head off eveytime he does something. the Smash community at its best.
Agreed, people are too quick to yell at Sakurai. like he doesn't know what he's doing, seriously people?

I'm sorry, but vectoring has been replaced with directional influence?

Do you have a link for that or are you talking out of your behind?
Patch the game yourself, and go into a Smash match against a level 9 Link, when he up tilts or up smashes you, while you play Mario or Wario, try to Vector and then try to DI to the left or right.

Let's hope there's more buffs and tweaks to come. Some characters already feel that much better. I'm pretty sure it won't be the last, but I hope they just don't make this a "first few months" type of thing :)
I'm sure as I said in my post, that when the Wii U one is out, Sakurai and team will be taking a long deserved vacation.
 
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Comeback Kid

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Why would you have to play as only Mario or Wario to vector?

Do you even know what DI is and what vectoring is? (Hint all characters can vector.)
 

AngeloHollow

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I agree wholeheartedly there will always be people who will not just find a work around, I found many work arounds to play with Kirby in Brawl when he was changed so much from Melee, and I didn't complain a bit.
I use MegaMan, and while I am a little upset that I can no longer Rush Cancel, I can't deny that being able to escape dangerous attacks was a little unfair. Having said that, I'm not angry or upset about any of the changes made by the patch. I use Greninja as well, so all the changes to him do not affect how well I do with him.

I find that the patches can be viewed both as a blessing and a punishment. We had all these nice tools before the patch, but because we abused some of those tools in a way the developers didn't intend, everybody is punished by these techniques being excluded by means of a patch. In exchange, we get some buffs and nerfs to other characters which may or may not be necessary.
 

Engage

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Why would you have to play as only Mario or Wario to vector?

Do you even know what DI is and what vectoring is? (Hint all characters can vector.)
Because Mario and Wario had some of the worst cases of Vectoring, you must not of seen Wario's "Wectoring" issue, where he'd turn into a paper bag and fly around if you held up in a certain direction while being hit. The only fix to this was to remove Vectoring in general.

And Mario could Vector off into the blast zone if he wanted to for some reason, or by accident.
 
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Engage

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I use MegaMan, and while I am a little upset that I can no longer Rush Cancel, I can't deny that being able to escape dangerous attacks was a little unfair. Having said that, I'm not angry or upset about any of the changes made by the patch. I use Greninja as well, so all the changes to him do not affect how well I do with him.

I find that the patches can be viewed both as a blessing and a punishment. We had all these nice tools before the patch, but because we abused some of those tools in a way the developers didn't intend, everybody is punished by these techniques being excluded by means of a patch. In exchange, we get some buffs and nerfs to other characters which may or may not be necessary.
Angelo, as I said in my post up there mate, Rush Cancelling IS NOT removed, I put it in the opening post for a reason.

And yes, I see this patch as a blessing for balance, but a punishment for all of the abuseable techniques people found being gone from their 'metagame'.
 

AngeloHollow

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Angelo, as I said in my post up there mate, Rush Cancelling IS NOT removed, I put it in the opening post for a reason.

And yes, I see this patch as a blessing for balance, but a punishment for all of the abuseable techniques people found being gone from their 'metagame'.
I guess I'm getting mixed answers everywhere. Some are saying Rush Canceling is out and some are saying it's not. I'm just confused by this point. lol I know Rush Escapes are still possible.
 

Hayzie

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I use MegaMan, and while I am a little upset that I can no longer Rush Cancel, I can't deny that being able to escape dangerous attacks was a little unfair. Having said that, I'm not angry or upset about any of the changes made by the patch. I use Greninja as well, so all the changes to him do not affect how well I do with him.

I find that the patches can be viewed both as a blessing and a punishment. We had all these nice tools before the patch, but because we abused some of those tools in a way the developers didn't intend, everybody is punished by these techniques being excluded by means of a patch. In exchange, we get some buffs and nerfs to other characters which may or may not be necessary.
I use Mega Man, too, and really... I never used Rush Cancel :surprised:

The fact that it isn't removed completely and only changed for the better is pretty nice. His other changes are good, too. Mobility in the air with the leaf shield is a must. I could've used that when I accidentally activated leaf shields and fell to my SD.
 

Comeback Kid

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Smash 4 "hold in toward the stage not to get killed" or "hold out from the stage not to get comboed" isn't called directional influence as this deals with knockback scaling and DI has never done so. I don't know what to tell you but your use of terms is incorrect and therefore confusing in the original post.
 
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Engage

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I guess I'm getting mixed answers everywhere. Some are saying Rush Canceling is out and some are saying it's not. I'm just confused by this point. lol I know Rush Escapes are still possible.


Smash 4 "hold in toward the stage not to get killed" or "hold out from the stage not to get comboed" isn't called directional influence as this deals with knockback scaling and DI has never done so. I don't know what to tell you but your use of terms is incorrect and therefore confusing in the original post.
Holding up and away from the stage in a different direction is Vectoring, mate. I've read up on all of this, it's even got its own post if you want to check that out. But, let someone who has the game (I don't, but it has been tested already) tell you. Wario's Vectoring was a problem due to the physics engine AND something to do with his weight given to him, but they changed something and Vectoring is gone completely now.
 
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AngeloHollow

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I use Mega Man, too, and really... I never used Rush Cancel :surprised:

The fact that it isn't removed completely and only changed for the better is pretty nice. His other changes are good, too. Mobility in the air with the leaf shield is a must. I could've used that when I accidentally activated leaf shields and fell to my SD.
It was nice to have, since it let me escape from some pretty dangerous attacks before they finished, but I won't be super bummed if it's taken out.
 

Engage

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It was nice to have, since it let me escape from some pretty dangerous attacks before they finished, but I won't be super bummed if it's taken out.
I linked a video of it not being removed.

Oh god.. How has Toon Link changed..?
They removed Bomb Cancelling is all, you can't grab a bomb and throw it anymore after an aerial.
 

Comeback Kid

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You don't even have the game but are making strong claims about the value of the balance changes and claiming new mechanics are in it with no evidence to back up your assertions.

That banter of yours seems to be coming from the posterior M8.
 

Engage

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You don't even have the game but are making strong claims about the value of the balance changes and claiming new mechanics are in it with no evidence to back up your assertions.

That banter of yours seems to be coming from the posterior M8.
So instead of you being not so lazy unlike me and doing your OWN research, you want me to spoon feed you, Shovel Knight? Sorry, but i'm not going to feed you info you can find yourself, good luck.
 

AngeloHollow

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I linked a video of it not being removed.



They removed Bomb Cancelling is all, you can't grab a bomb and throw it anymore after an aerial.
That's a Rush Escape. Rush Canceling would have let MegaMan immediately use Rush when the attack hits.
 

Engage

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That's a Rush Escape. Rush Canceling would have let MegaMan immediately use Rush when the attack hits.
Ah, now I see, well the video called it a cancel, at least it's still there though, the escape at least.

Lol that's what I thought.
Don't get what you mean?
Just saying, when you don't own a game but want info about it that bad, you do research, do some of that if you want answers. Googling this stuff takes no time at all.
 
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AngeloHollow

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Ah, now I see, well the video called it a cancel, at least it's still there though, the escape at least.
The person that made that video should change the title then. I've been told by my other MegaMan friends that Rush Canceling has been removed, but we still get the nice Rush Escape.
 

Engage

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The person that made that video should change the title then. I've been told by my other MegaMan friends that Rush Canceling has been removed, but we still get the nice Rush Escape.
http://smashboards.com/threads/at-zledge-boost.378499/

Another AT has been confirmed to of been kept in this update, and also Link has a few of his old AT's still around, he can kind of bomb cancel his Back air (which has almost no landing lag so it doesn't count sort of) and he can still IZAC as well with his Neutral Air.
 

Hayzie

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Why is Tails not an AT? Ugh.
 

AngeloHollow

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Wait, Vectoring was removed for DI again? Is there a thread where this was discussed and I missed it?
Yes, vectoring has replaced DI, but whether or not it has been removed, I don't know. I don't have the new patch out, so I'm not able to provide you with that information.
 
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