Okay, to end this pointless banter...

[Engage]

Great post! Unfortunately, it changes nothing. People in this community will keep blaming Sakurai for fixing glitches in the game and they would blame Sakurai if he hadn't fixed the glitches too! Literally damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Personally, I am glad Nintendo is willing to release patches to fix bugs, glitches, things characters aren't supposed to be able to perform, etc. If one of my favorite characters is nerfed because of the removal of a glitch, then that is cool and perfectly fair for me. I prefer the game to be played like it was designed to be played, instead of becoming the glitch fest that was a certain game in the series, popular among some competitive players.

Glitches aren't advanced techniques. Glitches are glitches and should be fixed.

I swear, this is one of the best post I've read on SmashBoards. First, i'd like to say, sick picture mate. Secondly, people will always find a way to call out blasphemy against Sakurai, he makes a game that was meant to be played a set way, and people complain because of unintentionally having glitches is a good game. It's like, what if Mario Bros. had a glitch that made you skip to the end of the game, and that was the full game, 60$ for a glitchy mess. Would they be satisfied if he kept the glitches in tact? People are never satisfied.

And the worst part is, as you said, the glitchy mess that a past iteration of Smash had, that became a competitive game was just pure luck, but I don't want that glitchy mess to become Smash 4, this game is good as it is now. And can only get better from here on out.

 

[Reila]

I swear, this is one of the best post I've read on SmashBoards. First, i'd like to say, sick picture mate. Secondly, people will always find a way to call out blasphemy against Sakurai, he makes a game that was meant to be played a set way, and people complain because of unintentionally having glitches is a good game. It's like, what if Mario Bros. had a glitch that made you skip to the end of the game, and that was the full game, 60$ for a glitchy mess. Would they be satisfied if he kept the glitches in tact? People are never satisfied.

And the worst part is, as you said, the glitchy mess that a past iteration of Smash had, that became a competitive game was just pure luck, but I don't want that glitchy mess to become Smash 4, this game is good as it is now. And can only get better from here on out.

Thanks (twice)! This picture of Galacta Knight is really nice. But yeah, what you said is truth.

One thing I particularly funny is how games like Sonic 06 and more recently, Assassin's Creed Unity and Sonic Boom are commonly trashed by people on the internet, due to the huge amount of glitches, bugs, etc... Yet Smash players are angry that the developers are willing to fix the glitches in Smash 4? It just doesn't make any sense to me. I get that certain glitches can potentially make the game more "dynamic" or certain characters better, but that is 1. subjective and 2. not how the game was designed to be played.

I also want to say that I have absolutely nothing against the competitive scene and I would truly love if Smash 4 was embraced by the competitive community, but for what it is and not for what it supposedly should have been, according to the aforementioned community. Smash 4 is a great game, very likely the best in the series so far and you say, with the support of the developers, it can get even better with eventual future patches and potential DLC.

 

[Raijinken]

I checked vectoring myself, and would have sworn it worked like normal, though now that I think about it, I only tested up/down on a horizontal hit, which would function identically to oldschool DI...

Either way, Zamus's infinite on Robin got removed, so I automatically sing this patch's praises.

I always welcome balance patches, even when they hit my characters (no apparent harm to mine yet, but it could happen), because I play flexibly and learn more than a single character. Plus, the fact that they're even TRYING means they CARE and know they CAN affect balance in a positive way.

The ability for games to numerically change is great. Without that, you get Melee, which is fun in its own rite, but there is only so much growth the metagame can undergo when the game itself literally never changes. To me, and many others, freshness more than outweighs your "precious time spent mastering the old character". Adapt, or cry and quit, it's really your choice.

If you don't want it to change, don't patch, it's not required unless you have some psychological need for online play. Splinter off into your own community of players using 1.03, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

 

[Engage]

I checked vectoring myself, and would have sworn it worked like normal, though now that I think about it, I only tested up/down on a horizontal hit, which would function identically to oldschool DI...

Either way, Zamus's infinite on Robin got removed, so I automatically sing this patch's praises.

I always welcome balance patches, even when they hit my characters (no apparent harm to mine yet, but it could happen), because I play flexibly and learn more than a single character. Plus, the fact that they're even TRYING means they CARE and know they CAN affect balance in a positive way.

The ability for games to numerically change is great. Without that, you get Melee, which is fun in its own rite, but there is only so much growth the metagame can undergo when the game itself literally never changes. To me, and many others, freshness more than outweighs your "precious time spent mastering the old character". Adapt, or cry and quit, it's really your choice.

If you don't want it to change, don't patch, it's not required unless you have some psychological need for online play. Splinter off into your own community of players using 1.03, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Exactly this, ADAPT. And if you can confirm DI is not back, that's highly welcome.

 

[Raijinken]

Exactly this, ADAPT. And if you can confirm DI is not back, that's highly welcome.

I'll test it with some friends in the morning, the CPU is far too uncooperative in Training Mode, and that adds too many variables.

 

[Engage]

I'll test it with some friends in the morning, the CPU is far too uncooperative in Training Mode, and that adds too many variables.

No need.

 

[Raijinken]

No need.

So.... some weird change between both.

I found a friend willing to test on Wifi, and while we couldn't be as scientific, we got similar results. It's definitely changed from 1.03.

 

[Engage]

So.... some weird change between both.

I found a friend willing to test on Wifi, and while we couldn't be as scientific, we got similar results. It's definitely changed from 1.03.

They agreed, it's some type of new... odd DI. It's not the old DI for sure

 

[Kikaioh]

Now, onto the 'banter' in the opening headline: Someone was very unhappy about their main (Greninja and Toon Link) getting nerfed like they did, he says it "changed my meta game and mind on Smash 4 as a whole." Now, this made my palm exercise extended force upon my face (face palm), because ARE YOU KIDDING ME, MATE? Smash 4 has only been around for 2 MONTHS, and people found out some pretty game breaking tricks in 2 MONTHS. "Shadow Sneak cancelling for Greninja put the other character at an unfair advantage, if you whiffed an attack with long lag on it, while Greninja does a laggy aerial like down air but then Shadow Sneak cancels out of it, he can punish you like a masochi-- like a professional." As a great youtube commenter once said: "That's the community."

I think you're really overstating the 'game-breaking' nature of the Shadow Sneak cancelling. It was more of a mixup option than anything OP, since the Shadow Sneak is a slow and somewhat easy to read move with limited follow-up options.

And whoever you read that complained about the nerfs changing their meta game, I agree with that person, and that's after having played 2000 battles online with Greninja prior to the patch. A lot of the new difficulty comes from the changes to upsmash (particularly with the very exacting change for the dash upsmash) along with various changes to lag. My gameplay style and the options I use are having to evolve fairly dramatically from how I played before the patch, making matches on a whole much more of an uphill battle than they used to be. I empathize with anyone complaining, because it honestly sucks to invest so much time and practice into a certain playstyle, only to have to shelve it and relearn your character. Realizing that these sorts of mechanics-changing patches can continue to happen in the future would understandably make someone more hesitant about investing too much time in a given character early on in the game's life. If that makes you facepalm, then I figure you must not be able to sympathize because you haven't been affected as much by the changes.

What's strange is that supposedly the c-stick actually accommodates for the dash upsmash in the WiiU version, so the patch change in a way makes the current 3DS version a fairly worser version to play on. From an investment standpoint that's also kind of grimacing, since I have to wonder if I'll continue nearly as much with the 3DS version once the WiiU version releases.

 

[Johnny Heart Gold]

People who keep seeing this new patch as a "failure" and a "mistake on Sakurai daddy san's side. . ." are so sadly wrong. This patch is great, it fixed things that made matches become as one sided as Fox / Falco matches were back in Melee when chain grabs were involved. Also, these fixes are phenomenal, they fixed the things that were otherwise GAME BREAKING, and they also changed A WHOLE WAY OF THE GAME WORKING, and brought back a feature MANY PEOPLE were wanting to return. . . Welcome home, Directional Influence. (not confirmed yet, but debated!) Vectoring has been removed from Smash 4 as a whole, but in return, Directional Influence (or, DI) has been brought back, allowing us to play the game a whole different way, AND not have to worry about Wario becoming the new "Deep Kong" around here, letting him recover from Tokyo to New York. Realize, they removed Vectoring and (Wectoring as you people called it for Wario), which involved removing a WHOLE SYSTEM from their game, and replacing it with an old one (for DI support). (Again, THIS IS NOT CONFIRMED YET.)

Now, onto the 'banter' in the opening headline: Someone was very unhappy about their main (Greninja and Toon Link) getting nerfed like they did, he says it "changed my meta game and mind on Smash 4 as a whole." Now, this made my palm exercise extended force upon my face (face palm), because ARE YOU KIDDING ME, MATE? Smash 4 has only been around for 2 MONTHS, and people found out some pretty game breaking tricks in 2 MONTHS. "Shadow Sneak cancelling for Greninja put the other character at an unfair advantage, if you whiffed an attack with long lag on it, while Greninja does a laggy aerial like down air but then Shadow Sneak cancels out of it, he can punish you like a masochi-- like a professional." As a great youtube commenter once said: "That's the community."

And along with that, someone else also complained about Toon Link's and regular Link's and even Peach's (Toss cancelling) being removed, now, to you all who don't know what that is, it's when you can do ANY aerial in the game besides Up special and Down special. You could do it from a neutral special aerial, side special aerial, Fair, Dair, Uair, Bair, Nair, any attack that has lag on it or some at all, and you could cancel the lag automatically into a throwing of your bomb with Link(s) or your Turnip with Peach, causing again, UNBALANCED match ups. It gave Link WAY MORE OPTIONS than it should of, because he could arrow you, then bomb you, then run in and follow up with something that's not supposed to work in that order THAT FAST. Or it even gave Peach a 0 - Death (from 0% to 130%+ and a free Kill) set up combo. Which again, got patched along with Toss Cancelling being patched, and I'm glad to see it go, as I never even played Smash 4 yet, but as a player who has seen how annoyingly broken it can be, I'm just happy it's gone.

Now, I approve of the BUFFS they put in place too, Falco's Lazer being shot faster (want to see a video of this though!), Shulk's monado being stronger on every attack by at least 2% - 3%, Yoshi getting more damage on his Dair?! (Also, Yoshi's Egg teleport and Hyper Ground Pound are gone.) And also, the removal of Hyper Rollout with Jiggly Puff is always welcome, it wasn't game breaking and just seemed harmless but when it happens and you're at a high %, it becomes (shiver). One of my favorite things they didn't remove, just nerfed though, is Rush Cancelling and Thunder Cancelling (Look these up). Rush cancelling isn't removed, you just can't do it on the first frame anymore, it has to be on about the 3rd or 4th frame of Megaman being hurt now, so you gotta spam that Up B A LOT faster now for it to activate, but it's there still. And Thunder Cancelling is the same, on a different frame of Pikachu being hurt.

Now, I hope this clears up why Sakurai does what he does though, I mean look at all the stuff you people found in 2 MONTHS of the game being out, I'm sure it'll be 2 - 3 months more until you all find out MORE stuff, besides, not all advanced techs are gone. Sheik still can bouncing fish technique all over the place, from using it to "Platform skip" or "Platform hop" to some insane onstage off stage tactics. There's so many more "techniques" to be found and evolved into a Metagame, you won't believe. And as someone else said, I'm sure there won't be patches every 2 months because of the fact that when the Wii U game is out in 2 days, Sakurai will most likely be wanting to rest up and take a breather. Give the game a chance to 'live', unlike people who want Smash 4 modded to be like other Smash mods ALREADY, like are you people that obsessed with Super Melee Brothers that you can't give a BRAND NEW GAME time to evolve? Yeesh, anyways, thanks for reading if you did this far, you deserve a medal.

LOL Al wey ardido xD

 

[AngeloHollow]

Thanks (twice)! This picture of Galacta Knight is really nice. But yeah, what you said is truth.

One thing I particularly funny is how games like Sonic 06 and more recently, Assassin's Creed Unity and Sonic Boom are commonly trashed by people on the internet, due to the huge amount of glitches, bugs, etc... Yet Smash players are angry that the developers are willing to fix the glitches in Smash 4? It just doesn't make any sense to me. I get that certain glitches can potentially make the game more "dynamic" or certain characters better, but that is 1. subjective and 2. not how the game was designed to be played.

I also want to say that I have absolutely nothing against the competitive scene and I would truly love if Smash 4 was embraced by the competitive community, but for what it is and not for what it supposedly should have been, according to the aforementioned community. Smash 4 is a great game, very likely the best in the series so far and you say, with the support of the developers, it can get even better with eventual future patches and potential DLC.

It is depressing and very contradictory, but I think I can enlighten why we have this great double standard when it comes to glitches in some of our games. Sonic '06 was actually going to be a very promising 3D Sonic game, but because the executives wanted a holiday release, the production was rushed and we are basically left with an unfinished game. People complain about Sonic '06 so much because it is essentially an unfinished game, and the game is so buggy and glitchy because it is unfinished. The bugs in that game caused weird and annoying things to happen. I doubt there were bugs that people could actually take advantage of the game engine to make it easier.

For Smash 4, we have a finished game, where the glitches are not inherently harmful, and instead are exploits that take advantage of the game's conventions to gain the upperhand in battle through techniques that are not being used in the intended manner. There aren't any glitches (that we currently know of) that cause super bad things to happen, like people falling through stages, or a glitch that causes enemies to not die or something. That's where this difference comes in. People discovery these glitches to use as techniques in the game to make it easier. Some of these techniques allow for some fighters to be lazy, as that technique was what made them good, and the removal of said technique makes them play worse. These techniques shouldn't be what make the player good, the player should be good at the game based on how skilled they are. One of those skills in any smash game is ADAPTING, and players complaining about the patch refuse to make use of a fundamental technique to play this game and just accept the changes.

What this says about smashers who complain about these changes are that they do not like it when the game is made more fair for the other players because they removed an unintended technique that they liked. I use MegaMan and Greninja and they both had techniques removed, but I'm not mad about it at all. I actually found Greninja's little Shadow Sneak trick more unsafe as I tried it, so I didn't ever use it. As for Rush Canceling, I can live without it. I don't absolutely need those tricks to be good with those characters and be good at the game. The player makes the fighter, not the fighter makes the player.

 

[Samus Harang]

Sonic 06 is a bad game because it's reallllllllly bad. Boom has a cool glitch where you can fly up as Knuckles into another part of the level with an infinite jump. Glitches that help you are fun! Glitches that hurt you are bad. It makes sense right?

 

[AngeloHollow]

Sonic 06 is a bad game because it's reallllllllly bad. Boom has a cool glitch where you can fly up as Knuckles into another part of the level with an infinite jump. Glitches that help you are fun! Glitches that hurt you are bad. It makes sense right?

It wasn't going to be bad as long as the production wasn't rushed, but because it was, they were forced to take shortcuts, so we have a pretty bad Sonic game.

 

[Samus Harang]

Oh yeah, Sega shouldn't rush the games for the holidays. It hurts the Sonic brand, I like Sonic a lot almost as much as Metroid.

 

[Kikaioh]

What this says about smashers who complain about these changes are that they do not like it when the game is made more fair for the other players because they removed an unintended technique that they liked.

I find it hard to believe the Smash development team didn't know that Greninja's SS lag cancelling was in the game. All you have to do is perform a dive kick, followed by the SS --- it's not exactly a tricky hidden maneuver, or something that you couldn't find after an hour of practicing. Also, they clearly knew that the HydroPump could be used for attacking and pushing back opponents since that's how they programmed it --- what they didn't seem to expect was that people would use it so well when KO'ing opponents. Not to mention, the dash upsmash technically isn't even removed, it's just severely hampered by the regular 3DS' lack of a C-Stick.

So the complaints aren't all about unintended techniques or unfair mechanics. It's more about the game not being fully balanced ahead of the release, and players being asked to adjust a lot to the rebalancing. It would be one thing if the adjustments were fairly small, but Greninja's changes in the patch generally affect his overall playstyle.

Plus you also have to consider, if the game wasn't completely balanced before its initial release, who's to say that these recent changes will actually fairly balance everything out? There are bound to be further balance patches in the future, and who knows if mechanics lost in this patch will come back in future ones.

In any case, I think it's perfectly understandable that people who spent time trying to learn the game would become upset if they're asked to considerably change their playstyle. I think its presumptuous to think that Smashers are somehow against a fair playing field, when it's more along the lines that it's frustrating to be simultaneously told that you had an unfair advantage, and that you'll need to learn a new playstyle. Not only does it undermine the validity of your past victories and progress, but it also sets back your learning, largely because the development team didn't get it quite right the first time around.

Anyways, hopefully these sorts of changes don't become a regular thing (I mean, not every two months), because that would be a pain to constantly have to adjust.

 

[Yellowpikmin476]

So what did this special Greninja trick even do? What's so important about it?

 

[Kikaioh]

So what did this special Greninja trick even do? What's so important about it?

Well that's kind of the thing, Greninja's shadow sneak land cancel wasn't really that strong a move, since it seemed experienced opponents could read it fairly well, partially because it was easy to guess when a Greninja might use it, but also because the SS itself was generally a fairly readable move (even AngeloHollow mentioned it seemed unsafe after he tried it). But even then it was still a good mixup move, and it gave an option as a followup for moves like the dive kick --- but now that the option is gone, it leaves Greninja's dive kick with a very laggy landing, making it overall much less safe to perform.

The larger change that really affected my playstyle was in narrowing the timing for performing the Dash usmash (I think I read it was related to DACUS being removed, though I'm not sure). Dash usmash was a great move because it was highly mobile and fairly strong, and had a fairly good range. For me it was one of the go-to KO and attacking tools, but now it's very difficult to at all perform it consistently. To be clear, the Smash dev team apparently didn't see this move as an unfair advantage, since apparently it still works normally on the Wii U version with a C-Stick --- but that's not much of a consolation for me with my current 3DS.

There were a number of other nerfs too, with lag being added to shurikens I think, as well as to usmash in general. Also changes limiting the effectiveness of the up A aerial, and also greatly reducing Hydro Pump's pushing power (also a painful KO tool that got nerfed). I think there were some speed buffs added for the SS, and also for Down-Smash, but so far I'm not finding them to be all that useful/reliable as consistent tools for fighting, not like all of the patched techniques were anyways, but we'll see.

 

[AngeloHollow]

Well that's kind of the thing, Greninja's shadow sneak land cancel wasn't really that strong a move, since it seemed experienced opponents could read it fairly well, partially because it was easy to guess when a Greninja might use it, but also because the SS itself was generally a fairly readable move (even AngeloHollow mentioned it seemed unsafe after he tried it). But even then it was still a good mixup move, and it gave an option as a followup for moves like the dive kick --- but now that the option is gone, it leaves Greninja's dive kick with a very laggy landing, making it overall much less safe to perform.

The larger change that really affected my playstyle was in narrowing the timing for performing the Dash usmash (I think I read it was related to DACUS being removed, though I'm not sure). Dash usmash was a great move because it was highly mobile and fairly strong, and had a fairly good range. For me it was one of the go-to KO and attacking tools, but now it's very difficult to at all perform it consistently. To be clear, the Smash dev team apparently didn't see this move as an unfair advantage, since apparently it still works normally on the Wii U version with a C-Stick --- but that's not much of a consolation for me with my current 3DS.

There were a number of other nerfs too, with lag being added to shurikens I think, as well as to usmash in general. Also changes limiting the effectiveness of the up A aerial, and also greatly reducing Hydro Pump's pushing power (also a painful KO tool that got nerfed). I think there were some speed buffs added for the SS, and also for Down-Smash, but so far I'm not finding them to be all that useful/reliable as consistent tools for fighting, not like all of the patched techniques were anyways, but we'll see.

I heard that DACUS was removed. Somebody had to explain to me yesterday that a dashing up smash is different from a DACUS, as a DACUS provides you with a small slide when you perform the up smash, while a dashing up smash provides no such slide.

Before the patch, I used Shadow Sneak as a quick unexpected killing attack when I had forced my opponents into a bad situation. I didn't need this little trick to still be really good with him. I also rarely used the up smash unless I had was waiting for my opponent to free fall while in helpless. I tried using it during other times, but it was unsafe for me to do so, so I didn't use the up smash very often like some others were using. So, I guess the patch doesn't affect me at all with Greninja. That's just me though. Apparently, it cripples others to the point of not wanting to use Greninja at all anymore, or like yourself, you find him simply too difficult to use now.

 

[Kikaioh]

I heard that DACUS was removed. Somebody had to explain to me yesterday that a dashing up smash is different from a DACUS, as a DACUS provides you with a small slide when you perform the up smash, while a dashing up smash provides no such slide.

Before the patch, I used Shadow Sneak as a quick unexpected killing attack when I had forced my opponents into a bad situation. I didn't need this little trick to still be really good with him. I also rarely used the up smash unless I had was waiting for my opponent to free fall while in helpless. I tried using it during other times, but it was unsafe for me to do so, so I didn't use the up smash very often like some others were using. So, I guess the patch doesn't affect me at all with Greninja. That's just me though. Apparently, it cripples others to the point of not wanting to use Greninja at all anymore, or like yourself, you find him simply too difficult to use now.

Is Greninja your main? Have you played a lot with him? TBH, I kind of have a hard time believing the patch didn't affect you much unless you hadn't really played much with him. For me, within the first 2 minutes of playing after the patch I noticed his mechanics had changed a lot, and that's with well over 2000 FG battles online.

The usmash in general was a great move, especially as a dash usmash. It covers a broad area over Greninja's head and sides, so if your opponent is trying to make an aerial escape in a certain direction, it was a great chase-down move --- fast to pull out, had a good chance of connecting, great damage and was easy to escape from if you wound up whiffing. Even without the dash, usmash was good as a mixup option to aerial up A. Especially being able to charge it was great for mindgames and throwing off your opponent's expectations, and with a good read it was also an option for edgeguarding. But now there's lag added to the usmash that makes it harder to run off when you miss, and of course on the 3DS the dash usmash is just generally hard to pull off now (apparently you can change some of the control configuration to accommodate, but it's more of a tradeoff than a fix).

With the new patch I don't think Greninja has become too difficult to use. He's just been nerfed in a lot of respects that makes winning with him more difficult than before, and also makes him feel slower and less agile than before. Even with the slight buffs he still feels like he's been taken down a considerable notch in his overall game, not crippled, but definitely harder to use. Hopefully with time a comparable metagame will emerge for his new play mechanics, we'll see, but for now it's a bit of starting over again.

 

[AngeloHollow]

Is Greninja your main? Have you played a lot with him? TBH, I kind of have a hard time believing the patch didn't affect you much unless you hadn't really played much with him. For me, within the first 2 minutes of playing after the patch I noticed his mechanics had changed a lot, and that's with well over 2000 FG battles online.

The usmash in general was a great move, especially as a dash usmash. It covers a broad area over Greninja's head and sides, so if your opponent is trying to make an aerial escape in a certain direction, it was a great chase-down move --- fast to pull out, had a good chance of connecting, great damage and was easy to escape from if you wound up whiffing. Even without the dash, usmash was good as a mixup option to aerial up A. Especially being able to charge it was great for mindgames and throwing off your opponent's expectations, and with a good read it was also an option for edgeguarding. But now there's lag added to the usmash that makes it harder to run off when you miss, and of course on the 3DS the dash usmash is just generally hard to pull off now (apparently you can change some of the control configuration to accommodate, but it's more of a tradeoff than a fix).

With the new patch I don't think Greninja has become too difficult to use. He's just been nerfed in a lot of respects that makes winning with him more difficult than before, and also makes him feel slower and less agile than before. Even with the slight buffs he still feels like he's been taken down a considerable notch in his overall game, not crippled, but definitely harder to use. Hopefully with time a comparable metagame will emerge for his new play mechanics, we'll see, but for now it's a bit of starting over again.

Yes, Greninja is a main, and I use him quite often, actually. I have 5 mains, and I have been playing Smash Wii U and playing with the patch on 3DS, and my performance is not any different than before the patch, so yes, ho w good I am with Greninja has actually been unaffected whatsoever.

 

[rabbit.soaring]

I'm pretty cool with the patch changes. MK got buffed, so I can't really complain. Keep in mind 1.0.4 was really just vanilla Smash U, so Nintendo will almost certainly be changing a lot of stuff in the future. The only thing that really bothers me is toss canceling's removal, but I've never had the pleasure of playing a good Peach or Link(s), so I can't really say much on the topic.

Yes, Greninja is a main, and I use him quite often, actually. I have 5 mains, and I have been playing Smash Wii U and playing with the patch on 3DS, and my performance is not any different than before the patch, so yes, ho w good I am with Greninja has actually been unaffected whatsoever.

Sorry, to be that guy, but... five mains is too much. If you really play five characters completely equally, and consider them all primaries, it's unlikely you can get really deep into any of them. Like @ Kikaioh said, with all the changes Greninja got, if you actually played him enough for him to be your main, it's unlikely the way you play wouldn't be affected somewhat. Also, performance in this case doesn't really mean anything, since Greninja's design wasn't completely changed, how good you are with him wouldn't change either.

 

[deech]

as I never even played Smash 4 yet

Here's the tl;dr version for you guys who are as confused and in disagreeance with OP as I am.

Bomb lag cancel wasn't game breaking.

 

[chipndip]

I just wish people didnt bite Sakurais head off eveytime he does something. the Smash community at its best.

Well, AFTER Melee. Not sure if that's gonna be flagged or not, but it's true...>_>

On topic: Toss canceling, Wectoring, Greninja's Shadow Sneak...all those unintended bugs are gone. It's funny really...the Smash community apparently seems so removed in its own little world that it failed to realize that their view on the game and the dev's view on the game are like...miles apart. Even with all these pro-competitive play changes, they still don't line up at all.

 

[Kikaioh]

Yes, Greninja is a main, and I use him quite often, actually. I have 5 mains, and I have been playing Smash Wii U and playing with the patch on 3DS, and my performance is not any different than before the patch, so yes, ho w good I am with Greninja has actually been unaffected whatsoever.

How often is 'quite often'? And what sort performance do you have with Greninja? I mean, if 'quite often' means a few dozen matches, and 'performance' means a 20% win rate, that would seem to suggest you haven't learned the character enough to have much of an opinion on him. Most of the other Greninjas I've seen that actually have a lot of time put into the character are quite open about the fact his mechanics have changed quite a bit. If you'd like to go toe-to-toe online to see where our Greninjas stack up against each other I'm game, you've piqued my curiosity as to what sort of playstyle you have that would wind up completely unaffected by the recent patch.

Here's the tl;dr version for you guys who are as confused and in disagreeance with OP as I am.

I sort of think this thread is a good example of how a person doesn't need to have deep experience in something in order to have a strong opinion about it.

 

[AngeloHollow]

How often is 'quite often'? And what sort performance do you have with Greninja? I mean, if 'quite often' means a few dozen matches, and 'performance' means a 20% win rate, that would seem to suggest you haven't learned the character enough to have much of an opinion on him. Most of the other Greninjas I've seen that actually have a lot of time put into the character are quite open about the fact his mechanics have changed quite a bit. If you'd like to go toe-to-toe online to see where our Greninjas stack up against each other I'm game, you've piqued my curiosity as to what sort of playstyle you have that would wind up completely unaffected by the recent patch.



I sort of think this thread is a good example of how a person doesn't need to have deep experience in something in order to have a strong opinion about it.

I invest more time in Shulk and MegaMan than I do with Greninja. If you want a match though, that's fine by me.

 

[rabbit.soaring]

I invest more time in Shulk and MegaMan than I do with Greninja. If you want a match though, that's fine by me.

...that would make Greninja a secondary, or "a character you like to play."

 

[AngeloHollow]

...that would make Greninja a secondary, or "a character you like to play."

I have 5 mains that I try to devote time with playing, but I practice more with MegaMan and Shulk since they are a bit more difficult to use against every character for me, compared to me using Greninja.