Official Official Updated Melee Panel Tier List and Community Voted Results

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#81
Hey guys, I know the tier list has been out for a while, and I wanted to share my thoughts.

Firstly, blahblah blah fox in ss tier blah blah blah. We get it,he isn't that much better than falco.
I made a tier list over on the voting thread, and thoughts I'd share some of my differences. I'd like to point out since I posted it, I have made some changes, so check this spoiler for my new tier list.

So overall, here is what I think.
Falcon is only slightly better than ICs.
I'm not too familiar with mid tiers, but I see more potential in Yoshi than I do with Luigi and Doc.
I think that Link is better than DK, Link just doesn't get any representation.
Now, the Low Tiers. My favorite. Here we go.
Let me preface this by saying that this is kinda biased, but I'll try to keep it as factual as possible.
G&W deserves to be at the top of the list, but still definitely worse than DK.
Mewtwo has some good potential, but only gets some use here and there, not really showing what he could be capable of.
Pichu. Oh boy. Some people might be shouting at me for him to be a lot lower, and there was actually one guy when I posted this originally saying it should be higher. Pichu, along with a lot of these low tiers has one really good move, his nair. But Pichu is limited by the move that hurt itself, and the fact that its extremely light. But you can pull off some crazy fun combos with Pichu.
Zelda is probably the character I am least familiar with in this matchup. Zelda does get some usage, with The Lake and Narcissa a long time ago. But, she is definitely very limited.
Roy. Ugh. What a disappointing piece of garbage. I'm putting him tied with Ness for my list, as I really think that Roy is just way too underwhelming. A lot of his attacks do barely anything, and his sweetspots are on the hilt of his blade. His down air meteors instead of spikes, so no awesome ken combos. His only real upside compared to marth is his downtilt, but thats about it.
Ness I am also very unfamiliar with. He gets some usage by Hbox and JimJamFlimFlam, but that is really about it. From my little experience with him, you could have some fun, but he is very limited.
And here is my big surprise - Kirby above Bowser!! This is where my bias unfortunately really shines. I really love Kirby, and love his potential. He has positive matchups against Bowser and Roy definitely, and I would say is about even with like 3 or 4 characters. Kirby gets some nice usage by C Rabbit, and some top players have used him once or twice in matches, along with most other low tiers. I am giving Kirby ll this praise, but I am only saying he is better than Bowser. Sure, Kirby can beat Roy, but Roy does better against Pichu and Ness. So I'm not saying that Kirby is good. He is awful. I'm just saying that he is better than Bowser.
I can't really say much about Bowser, except that he is awful. DJ Nintendo is Bowser's last hope, and his matchups against all of the cast are not in his favor.

So tell me what you think, I know that I really only focused on the low tiers, but they are my specialty.

Yes, I totally agree
 

Yoite

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#83
Does Fox really need his own tier? I don't claim to be an expert on melee but based on tournaments I've seen I've never seen Fox look THAT much better than Falco or Marth.
 

NJzFinest

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#84
Does Fox really need his own tier? I don't claim to be an expert on melee but based on tournaments I've seen I've never seen Fox look THAT much better than Falco or Marth.
IMO Fox getting his own tier is a result of bad data analysis. Most should have fox at number 1, but then there's more debate over whether Falco or Marth comes next. This then brings down both of their average placings to the point that it seems like Fox is so much higher.
 

-ACE-

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#85
I don't know why people keep asking about Fox. The tier placement is obviously wack, as they are based solely on voting trends. I'd personally have never stamped the word "official" on this list, but hey, that's what it is. The tier list has always been BS. take that for what it's worth. It has always been an arbitrary mixture of results and theory/what is generally accepted.

I think they should have 2 lists.

List #1: Super Theory Bros List. Who are the best characters in the game in order. This list should be based primarily off matchups.

List #2: Tournament tier list. Which characters are showing the most dominance in tournament currently, in order.

We can't say that one character is at a particular spot because of results, and then say another character is at another spot because "come on bro". Lol. It just doesn't make sense.
 
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#86
I don't know why people keep asking about Fox. The tier placement is obviously wack, as they are based solely on voting trends. I'd personally have never stamped the word "official" on this list, but hey, that's what it is. The tier list has always been BS. take that for what it's worth. It has always been an arbitrary mixture of results and theory/what is generally accepted.

I think they should have 2 lists.

List #1: Super Theory Bros List. Who are the best characters in the game in order. This list should be based primarily off matchups.

List #2: Tournament tier list. Which characters are showing the most dominance in tournament currently, in order.

We can't say that one character is at a particular spot because of results, and then say another character is at another spot because "come on bro". Lol. It just doesn't make sense.
Queue request for 3rd tier list to average them in some way lol
 

Thor

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#88
All these people who talk about Pichu "not being trash"...

Do you any of you have any idea what his tech options are? Fun fact: Ice Climbers dsmash literally covers ALL 7 tech options [and apparently, Roy fsmash does too, with tech roll away getting hit by the tip, and everything else getting sweetspotted].

Better than Ness? Does Ness have any truly unwinnable MUs? Sure, Sheik is nigh-impossible, but 100-0? It's bad, but it's not Fox-Bowser on Temple bad.

Meanwhile, Pichu-Ice Climbers is actually atrocious. "Nair is great!" Yeah ok, watch your nair get CC-grab into infinite. Pichu doesn't have any real answer to wavedash back CC except don't go in. All his other tools are outranged and his grab is outranged by theirs, never mind his abysmal tools for dealing with CC and splitting them up. And I'm pretty sure he gets chaingrabbed by SoPo, so if he is, that means any time SoPo lands a grab with Nana desynced, it's CG into wobble. And I'm no expert on the MU, but there are other issues besides.

Any of you notice that Axe almost never goes Pikachu against ICs? It's because that MU is trash, straight garbage, easily Pika's hardest MU [with Peach and Puff and Sheik not too far behind, but still a notable distance]. Now multiply that by everything awful about Pichu - worse usmash for KOing [still formidable, but weaker], worse range on nearly everything, self-damage, considerably worse teching options, and dsmash being worse at splitting them up/beating CC. But I guess you get one extra frame of shieldstun on your nair.

Only two MUs that I know of have ever been truly labeled 100-0, and those are Pichu-ICs and Bowser-Sheik [I've heard jokes about Samus Roy being 100-0 but I don't think that's the case]. For all the complaints people have about Link/Zelda/Mewtwo/GnW/Roy/Kirby/etc., at least they can pretend to have a semblance of a chance, and real options in a variety of MUs [where they have like 5 options, and Fox has 10, but all 10 of his cover at least 4 of theirs, or whatever, however you want to express it]. Those two characters have MUs so bad, they are labeled literally unwinnable by some, not really really hard, but "You will never ever win this MU against a very good player who knows the MU with this character, ever."

Meanwhile, with Pikachu's genuinely atrocious ICs MU, terrible Puff, Peach, and Sheik MUs, people decided that Samus's hard [but less hard] Marth Sheik Peach Puff MUs leave Samus behind Pikachu, despite her doing better vs spacies, tons better vs ICs, and probably around the same vs Falcon. Did people just do tier math and decide that losing to higher tiers makes you worse, even if the degree of those losses are quite different, or what? It's not like there aren't multiple Samus mains repping the character quite solidily either, but we can only point to Axe for so much...

Otherwise, I think the list is decent. I actually like Fox in his own tier for a variety of reasons, but I don't feel like going into them since him being in that position makes people uncomfortable.
 

Encorey

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#90
This is a great list. Feels much more accurate now.

A bit upset that Bowser is 25th now, I already bought a custom sweatshirt with BOWSER and 24 on the back :(
Make him 24 again with your epic results in tournament. There is always Smash 4 Bowser too.
 

Large Dad

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#91
I love the new tier list. Feels a whole lot more accurate now.

But what really baffles me the most isn't Ganons placement it's that why does Fox have his own tier now?

Also Yoshi being much higher then Ganon? I guess I can live with it.

Still, great tier list.
 

Thor

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#98
I mean that's really all there is to it, Kirby is just a trash character
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alccs3CrFXI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe8VSZm33e4

I don't think Bowser isn't better than Kirby, it's just that DJ Nintendo is more known about than Triple R and so people know about Bowser's tools more than Kirby's. Bowser doesn't have a single winning MU in the game, while Kirby has at least Bowser and probably one or two more [poor Roy].

I also maintain that Kirby is better than Pichu, because he doesn't have any MU thought to be 100-0 [unlike Bowser and Pichu, who have Sheik and ICs respectively], only MUs that tend to play out that way (95-5 or whatever), but most people would rather listen to M2K go on about how Pichu has one good move as opposed to Kirby's several pretty solid moves.

That said, they're both still bad characters.
 
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#99
The problem is that while Bowser is worse than Kirby, and it has no of MU in his favor, unlike Kirby (that precisely the MU positive against Bowser), Bowser has overall MU less poor than himself, which prevents me from being last
 

extraneous

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alccs3CrFXI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe8VSZm33e4

I don't think Bowser isn't better than Kirby, it's just that DJ Nintendo is more known about than Triple R and so people know about Bowser's tools more than Kirby's. Bowser doesn't have a single winning MU in the game, while Kirby has at least Bowser and probably one or two more [poor Roy].

I also maintain that Kirby is better than Pichu, because he doesn't have any MU thought to be 100-0 [unlike Bowser and Pichu, who have Sheik and ICs respectively], only MUs that tend to play out that way (95-5 or whatever), but most people would rather listen to M2K go on about how Pichu has one good move as opposed to Kirby's several pretty solid moves.

That said, they're both still bad characters.
I am aware of Triple R, he is an amazing player. However, I think what Ace said holds true
If a character has all losing matchups that are 70/30

And another character has one winning matchup, and the rest are 80/20.

First character is better, just saying.
 

-ACE-

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I should have said better overall. If that one winning matchup is against a top or high tier, the second character is more tourney viable due mostly to character popularity. But, we were talking about two low tiers, so.. Lol
 
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Thor

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I still fail to see how Bowser's MUs are less worse than Kirby's, frankly... his Sheik MU is certainly less difficult than Bowser's (shoutouts to ducking and stealing her needles), and his Falcon, Marth, and Ganondorf MUs are likely less difficult as well. I can't see how Fox or Falco would be notably less difficult (a range issue maybe...?), and I'd have to guess ICs/Peach is awful for both of them [although Kirby has an easier time powershielding turnips from what I've heard about the MU].

Are there some mid-tier MUs where Bowser does better that influence this?
 

Comet7

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kirby doesn't get trashed by marth, it's actually only skewed around the level of pika-spacies

i think kirby gets more wrecked by spacies than pichu (and i know how the matchups are played at a basic level). ICs are debatable, i don't think there's any 100-0 matchups in the game since that suggests a character has literally no advantages in any field (even little niches) which isn't true in any MU.
 

Zethoro

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For anyone wondering why Fox is in his own tier, if I'm seeing this correctly the scores are by these top smash players' votes. While second (Falco) is debated quite a bit, Fox is almost unanimously seen as the best character in the game. This makes his score substantially higher than Falco's, and thus, it's a big enough gap to warrant him having his own tier.
At least, that's how I see it. Good stuff, this tier list looks super accurate to me; I think it's about time Pichu got brought above Bowser.
 

jigglesthepuff

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i don't think bowser is better than kirby. bowser is strong, if you can wait through five years of startup lag to hit your opponent. he has up b out of shield, and that's it. kirby can use what little mobility he has and combo the **** out of him.

about the fox having his own tier thing, i would say that's fine
 
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i don't think bowser is better than kirby. bowser is strong, if you can wait through five years of startup lag to hit your opponent. he has up b out of shield, and that's it. kirby can use what little mobility he has and combo the **** out of him.

about the fox having his own tier thing, i would say that's fine
Yes but again, it is played to their MU. Bowser and globally confrontations less catastrophic Kirby
 

Spak

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Just wondering, why Jiggypuff is high?
Because he Smoked2Jointz. Oh wait, that's Falcon.

The real answer is because of HBox has been at the top for so long and this is a poll of people's opinions on characters. If a character has a rep from the top 5 in the world, he will naturally be ranked fairly high.
 

reobebo

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Because he Smoked2Jointz. Oh wait, that's Falcon.

The real answer is because of HBox has been at the top for so long and this is a poll of people's opinions on characters. If a character has a rep from the top 5 in the world, he will naturally be ranked fairly high.
Oh wow. I didn't really expect that. No Up B recovery, when shield breaks, you die instantly, there's a chance with rest, if it doesn't work, you're screwed, and a very light character. It doesn't really matter now since this is a balloon type pokemon, what do I expect?
 

Spak

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No Up B recovery,
Jiggs has 5 jumps and rising pound to compensate for that
when shield breaks, you die instantly
I've very rarely seen shield breaks in tourney sets
there's a chance with rest, if it doesn't work, you're screwed
There are guaranteed rest setups and if it works it's an instakill; I don't see your problem with rest.
and a very light character.
And a lot of characters have a harder time comboing floaties. It's true that Jiggs gets killed off the top really easily, but he also has the fastest (horizontal) aerial movement in the game, strong aerials, and can space really well with his disjoints (like Bair). Jiggs is a good character, and deserves the spot he's in right now.
 

reobebo

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Jiggs has 5 jumps and rising pound to compensate for thatI've very rarely seen shield breaks in tourney sets There are guaranteed rest setups and if it works it's an instakill; I don't see your problem with rest. And a lot of characters have a harder time comboing floaties. It's true that Jiggs gets killed off the top really easily, but he also has the fastest (horizontal) aerial movement in the game, strong aerials, and can space really well with his disjoints (like Bair). Jiggs is a good character, and deserves the spot he's in right now.
Like I said, there is a chance that explosion will happen or just sleep. If it's on sleep, your opponent will have a chance.
 

reobebo

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I dont get how Ganon is so low,but okay.

This game is to good.
Ganon is more like a clone to Captain Falcon, except he has strength over speed. Captain Falcon has speed over strength.
 
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