Data Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Wario

[TheReflexWonder]

Are you asking what happens if someone tries to roll behind you on stage if you do it at the edge orrr... ?

Yes, basically. Suction Bite would be nice tool if it weren't reactable into a roll behind Wario. Could be great for Teams disruption or helping to camp for Waft if you're hanging out near the edge.

 

[Hyper]

Yes, basically. Suction Bite would be nice tool if it weren't reactable into a roll behind Wario. Could be great for Teams disruption or helping to camp for Waft if you're hanging out near the edge.

After testing it out for a bit, it turns out it super depends on where they are when they roll.
Too close and they roll into your mouth.
Far out and they'll roll behind you.
Somewhat midway and they'll be pulled off stage. Though they're in a perfect spot to bair you

And it seems percentage is a factor in this as well. When at low percent, they wouldn't get sucked off stage.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

And it seems percentage is a factor in this as well. When at low percent, they wouldn't get sucked off stage.

-That's- an interesting finding. If you put them at 999%, do they just fly past you and die?

 

[Hyper]

-That's- an interesting finding. If you put them at 999%, do they just fly past you and die?

Holy **** yes they do.
I'm laughing so hard.

 

[Nintendrone]

Okay, so the soft deadline for submission is in 2 days. If no one argues for a change in the list, I will call AA over and show him this:

Wario's Custom Sets (March 15, 2015):

1211
1212
1213
1112
1113
1123
1221
1222
1223
1313

 

[A Rogue Cop]

I wish Burying Bike had more representation. It's extremely useful as a projectile and it'd be nice to have a set with both it and Wide Corkscrew which could be used to catch opponents and send them at a very horizontal trajectory as they jump out of the ground.

I'm glad that rose-scented waft got paired with it though. The burying and ginormous hotbox of the waft makes dealing insane amounts of damage easy.

 

[Nintendrone]

Maybe next time Bury Bike could have another set or two, if people vouch for it well. It wasn't on more sets because the other bikes were much more popular, which means they'll be used more. If you see something in it that wasn't seen before, then let us know for the next update.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It neuters his recovery by a huge amount and has a much smaller number of mix-ups when you're riding it into someone. What matchups does having a bike with that much health actually help?

 

[A Rogue Cop]

Granted that it is less useful for recovering, it still gives you what is essentially another small air jump, and the fact that it should be paired with the faster-charging waft variants means recovery still shouldn't be an issue. If it really becomes a problem it could also be paired with the corkscrew leap, but that feels a bit overkill.

In terms of matchups I feel like it isn't any different from the other bikes when it comes to being thrown. I mean, obviously it is different because of the health, but the actual mechanics of throwing it are the same, i.e. the supposed weight of the bike doesn't affect throw distances at all. This just means that the heavy bike does the same job as the other bikes, but better, as soon as it's in your hands. (Unfortunately when it's in your opponent's hands as well.) Maybe I just focus on using the bike too much in my play style.

It also serves as an effective projectile shield. Driving it at someone and hopping off will allow you to safely approach behind the bike through just about any form of projectile other than explicitly piercing forms. This also works when simply leaving it on the ground.

These are all things that I'm sure you knew already, but perhaps haven't considered from another perspective. It's really no fault other than myself that it has less representation. I only made an account here a couple days ago when I knew full-well that the project was going on. I'll make sure to argue in the burying bike's favor the next time a customs revision comes around.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Nobody is going to be hit by a bike throw more than a couple times in one throw, so the extra health generally hurts more than it helps, as it will likely stay in a spot when you want it to be gone. Respawning a broken bike takes about a full second, so it's not like it requires much commitment to get out.

 

[Rakurai]

After actually using the speeding bike in a semi-competitive tournament (Four player free-for-all with items on), I think it's easily my preferred custom in pretty much every situation.

It moves too quickly for people to realistically punish you if it gets shielded or dodged, it knocks people noticeably farther then the standard bike at all percents (Enough that I was able to KO somebody at the edge at 80% and max rage by ramming them), the low HP makes it easier to dispose of, it makes extremely easy to escape aerial pursuers and reset to the ledge, and it creates true combos on hit.

I actually managed to land the Speeding Bike to fully charged waft setup on one occasion, which felt like the highlight of what was my first Smash 4 tourney experience. Pity it happened off-camera, though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I had a similar combo with regular Bike -> full Waft at Final Round this past weekend.

 

[Magik0722]

Just won a 44 man tournament using 1113. Never really used customs but I'm really liking quick waft.

 

[Rakurai]

I did some testing, and at lower percents, you can actually footstool after a Speeding Bike hit and go for a jab reset using a late fair as they hit the ground.

I knew the bike had some good combo potential before, but I don't think I'll ever use anything else now.

 

[Nintendrone]

I'd have to agree, I love Speeding Bike so much. It makes his recovery even crazier, it combos, it gets him all the way across the stage, and it breaks easily so it can be thrown out a lot. I'm glad that most of the sets have Speeding Bike, and hope that it doesn't change, unless something big is discovered.

 

[Johnniewalkker]

honestly i don't think changing any of his special moves is worth it. I prefer the OG moveset <3

 

[Rakurai]

I think the bike and waft are the only moves I'd change at this point.

Both bite customs are slow and very punishable on whiff, while both corkscrew customs have a major drawback (Reduced range and no hitbox respectively). along increased start-up lag.

On the other hand, speeding bike has so many merits over the standard bike, and both waft customs have niche uses. Quick Waft is especially good in conjunction with the aforementioned bike for having ready access to a combo that can KO surprisingly early, while the Rose Scented Waft is god-like for edgeguards due to the bogus hitbox letting it connect way easier.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Suction Bite appears to have the same startup as regular Bite, and the suction effect starts just as early, even if it the graphic doesn't show up that quickly.

 

[Rakurai]

It's mostly the endlag on the suction bite that bothers me.

Wario has to hold his mouth open for a whole second or so if it misses, which basically guarantees that you're getting punished if your opponent manages to roll behind him.

 

[Magik0722]

Are we still doing this? I'd like to nominate 1213. Seems like an obvious set but its not in there.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Are we still doing this? I'd like to nominate 1213. Seems like an obvious set but its not in there.

It's done, and 1213 is there.
http://smashboards.com/threads/official-custom-moveset-project-summer-2015-edition-evo-sets.395721/

1211, 1212, 1213, 1112, 1113, 1313, 2211, 2111, 1221, 1122

 

[Waroh]

I'm not sure if it's been noted... but Quick Waft 2 also trips opponents. It's quick enough to follow up with a grab, F-tilt, D-smash almost an F-smash and perhaps other things as well. Charges about every 10 seconds. Does ~5%, as well.

Quick Waft 1 may have some situational usage, too. Being it has a larger trip hitbox than default waft 1. Though you'll have to read the opponent for a follow-up with this one.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I'm not sure if it's been noted... but Quick Waft 2 also trips opponents. It's quick enough to follow up with a grab, F-tilt, D-smash almost an F-smash and perhaps other things as well. Charges about every 10 seconds. Does ~5%, as well.

Quick Waft 1 may have some situational usage, too. Being it has a larger trip hitbox than default waft 1. Though you'll have to read the opponent for a follow-up with this one.

Yeah I just tested it out. I think FSmash is guaranteed if you react reaaaally quick but idk.

I like this a lot so imma experiment with it more. Not sure how safe it is exactly though.

 

[Waroh]

Biggest drawback I see is watching the clock more than we already have to!

 

[Ikes]

I'll just post my setup here

-Chomp

The increased damage is a good enough tradeoff not to use inhaling chomp (I really would rather be able to use more bites, inhaling chomp has a much lower bite rate from my experience)

-Burying Bike

Burying leads to a lot of good setups, especially since it lasts so much longer than other burying moves (Seriously, I can get off my bike and land a forward smash well before they're able to mash out at the point that they hit 60-70%, it's crazy) and the recovery is still good from it since it still grants a high jump

-Corkscrew leap

It's a better recovery and i rarely see myself using Corkscrew as an attack anyways, it's too situational to use as an attack and a better recovery is good anyways since my horizontal recovery is a bit more limited due to burying bike

-Waft

it's the only one that kills early, the others just seem to have too large of downsides to consider using.

That would make my setup 1331 if I'm correct (correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yes, what you're saying is 1331.

It sounds like people are relatively bad at mashing unless they're hit by the rolling Bike after you jump off, which shouldn't be happening because they have plenty of time to react to that and it will only bury a grounded opponent. Also, a buried opponent takes about half damage and significantly less knockback from moves while buried, so the only high-knockback option Wario would have available from that is D-Air (and only potentially; I haven't tested if the multi-hits are enough to get someone out reliably, as Sonic U-Smash does).

All three Wafts are affected by Rage pretty significantly, so when you're at high percents, Turbo Waft and even Rose-Scented Waft start KOing at solid and reasonable percents. The fact that you get Turbo Waft so often and that the hitbox comes out significantly faster is something to consider, and Rose-Scented Waft's greater damage output, significantly faster charge (but not as fast as Turbo Waft), and ridiculously big hitbox are huge benefits; the only things they don't have going for them is that they don't kill at ridiculously early percents.

 

[Ikes]

Yes, what you're saying is 1331.

It sounds like people are relatively bad at mashing unless they're hit by the rolling Bike after you jump off, which shouldn't be happening because they have plenty of time to react to that and it will only bury a grounded opponent. Also, a buried opponent takes about half damage and significantly less knockback from moves while buried, so the only high-knockback option Wario would have available from that is D-Air (and only potentially; I haven't tested if the multi-hits are enough to get someone out reliably, as Sonic U-Smash does).

All three Wafts are affected by Rage pretty significantly, so when you're at high percents, Turbo Waft and even Rose-Scented Waft start KOing at solid and reasonable percents. The fact that you get Turbo Waft so often and that the hitbox comes out significantly faster is something to consider, and Rose-Scented Waft's greater damage output, significantly faster charge (but not as fast as Turbo Waft), and ridiculously big hitbox are huge benefits; the only things they don't have going for them is that they don't kill at ridiculously early percents.

When playing against my brother who is the king of mashing, even he has trouble mashing out of burial bike, I think the burial has special properties that makes it simply harder to mash out of

also at kill percents, f smash will kill out of burial, I've done it on multiple occasions, so killing buried opponents isnt an issue since

A. Burial is hard to mash out of
B. Burial lasts long enough to dismount and land an uncharged (or sometimes partially charged) smash attack.

 

[Spinosaurus]

How often would you get the burial effect though?

 

[Nintendrone]

^^^^^
That's the main reason why I'm skeptical of using Bury Bike and/or having a lot of sets with it. People have to be on the ground and not shielding to be buried, so how often could one get the setup for the bury? Is it enough to justify using it over the other bikes?

Also, I just looked up how the game recognizes button mashing: every frame, it will check if any action button (as in, not Start or something) has been pressed, as well as if the control stick has been moved in a cardinal direction. If your brother is not alternating between a button plus a stick direction, then a different button and direction, then he is not mashing most effectively.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

My old mashing method of "press all four face buttons at once" that was famous in the Brawl days is no longer effective as a result of that. Your brother may be doing something similar.

 

[Ikes]

How often would you get the burial effect though?

Honestly, a lot, it's really easy to mix up your opponents and it's a very strong punish, I get burials pretty consistently, and when I dont they're either in shield or in the air, where I can punish accordingly.

My old mashing method of "press all four face buttons at once" that was famous in the Brawl days is no longer effective as a result of that. Your brother may be doing something similar.

Nah, he mostly twists the sticks and mashes the triggers/bumpers as fast as he can
He doesnt play brawl, he plays melee and PM alongside 4

also the bike itself seems to be a better thrown projectile from my experience, since it seems to have a heavier weight? (I'm not sure on this one, since i havent used stock bike in some time)

 

[meleebrawler]

Honestly, a lot, it's really easy to mix up your opponents and it's a very strong punish, I get burials pretty consistently, and when I dont they're either in shield or in the air, where I can punish accordingly.



Nah, he mostly twists the sticks and mashes the triggers/bumpers as fast as he can
He doesnt play brawl, he plays melee and PM alongside 4

also the bike itself seems to be a better thrown projectile from my experience, since it seems to have a heavier weight? (I'm not sure on this one, since i havent used stock bike in some time)

Well it definitely has more health letting you use it more and soak up more damage.

 

[Ikes]

I'm definitely of the opinion that Burying Bike is a better tool for setups and I use it better anyways since I dont find myself very far offstage most of the time, so the recovery issue is more or less a non-issue for me.

It's also IMHO more hype cause burial setups are pretty sick ;¬)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If you're in this for the hype, you're likely playing the wrong character, hah.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Since Meta Knight gains pretty much nothing substantial from customs, Wario is going to be my go-to for customs event. My scene isn't very supportive of customs so I will be traveling a lot out of state anyway (Smash N Splash and a few other big events). Right now my go-to seems to be 1212 but I've got other sets in mind. I'll keep you guys updated for data's sake!

 

[ZeGlasses!]

What are some matchups that people find Rose Waft is a better option for? I usually find it difficult to give up the insane kill potential of stock waft.

 

[Warumon]

Don't forget that speed bike also can guarantee a footstool as well as fart and any Ariel.

And since it's faster people have less time to react so it allows u to get in their zone

 

[Rakurai]

What are some matchups that people find Rose Waft is a better option for? I usually find it difficult to give up the insane kill potential of stock waft.

It feel it helps against characters who normally have a significant range advantage and/or a speed advantage they can abuse to wall Wario out with properly spaced attacks without fear of being punished. They can't afford to do anything within two body-widths of Wario if they don't want to get wafted.

It's not that strong, but it scales with rage well enough to get kills at the same percents a half waft would. It's also laughably easy to edgeguard people with.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What are some matchups that people find Rose Waft is a better option for? I usually find it difficult to give up the insane kill potential of stock waft.

All of them, IMO. Being able to land it more consistently is significantly more useful than potentially KOing at 50%, IMO. Having a way better spacing tool that charges faster and deals more damage compliments the rest of your moveset instead of games entirely being made or broken on whether or not you land your regular Waft.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The only matchup I can think of that would make me question Rose Waft is Lucario; that might be a better shot for the regular Waft because getting KOing extremely early is more useful against him than anyone else.

I know that when you jump off the Bike on the ground, your Bike ceases to have a hurtbox that people can hit/grab. I think that would apply for Wario Neutral-B, too, so I wonder if you can jump off of Burying Bike and get a Neutral-B off while the opponent has to deal with the Bike before it falls over, since the jump is smaller. That could be a respectable offensive option. Worth testing, for sure. Burying Bike also has the advantage of having the Bike next to you after you bury someone, so just throwing the Bike down gets a ton of damage and/or takes them out of the ground so your follow-up can deal its full knockback.

Still pretty convinced that Up-B3 is the best option. It's marginally higher than the regular one, but that extra height actually allows you to do a lot of things Wario is otherwise limited with. You can go suuuuuper-deep with edgeguards, you can attempt "regular" edgeguards without being required to use the Bike to get back to the ledge, and you move up faster, so in a way it's harder to intercept. I think the benefits to our edgeguard and recovery do a great amount of good.