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I imagine melee-specific custom sets would benefit from being tall, while projectile-specific customs would benefit from being short. Although being able to move and jump around much faster is a substantial benefit either way...
I don't see why each of the 10 need to be the same height? Can't we tailor the height/weight to the set itself?
Also, since weight affects the range of Slash Launcher, does it affect the range of Airborne Assault? If it does, AA may be much less risky on wide swordfighters.
I imagine melee-specific custom sets would benefit from being tall, while projectile-specific customs would benefit from being short. Although being able to move and jump around much faster is a substantial benefit either way...
I don't see why each of the 10 need to be the same height? Can't we tailor the height/weight to the set itself?
Also, since weight affects the range of Slash Launcher, does it affect the range of Airborne Assault? If it does, AA may be much less risky on wide swordfighters.
No Swordfighter wants to be taller than about 1/2, maybe default, you literally lose a HUGE movement stats for some extra range and a tiny bit of weight/damage/KO potential
We need to have a standardized height/weight class for each Mii Fighter because it would be an absolute logistical hell to try to convince TOs to import 30 different Miis for the sake of tailoring like that. On the flipside, though, you guys get to have more than 10 sets so that's a plus, I'd say.
The slight difference in timing can be accounted for human error, that's all. I'm pretty sure fat and thin Miis are exactly the same when it comes to endlag.
Hmm... not sure. Since Mii Swordfighters now follow the pros and cons as the other Miis when changing the weight and height, a Thin/Short SF should have a faster recovery/startup than a Heavy/Tall. For example,
So... what's the general consensus in regards to Swordfighter's height and weight? Or does that also depend on the kind of moveset you want to use. Like I said before, I use the 1231 set, so do I need to go Small Thin, Small Fat, Mid-Height Fat, etc?
For now, it is preference. Sadly, I have been preoccupied with other things (Monster Hunter 4) to figure out the most optimal size, I personally use Short/Medium and I might check out 1/4 height & weight or 1/2 Height/Thin Weight.
I want to agree with General Ledge (different size for different sets) but that will give TOs and other players more "problems". For now, we need to think of different sets for different situations, matchups or common playstyles.
You can see the endlag differences by simply spamming dtilt. Height seems to have full affect on dtilt's endlag, as a max height it takes a little bit to come out, while a minheight it comes out very fast.
I'm curious if weight affects landing lag on moves. It'd make sense, but... Well, a lot of the size differences so far haven't, so *shrug*
Here's a shoddy MSPaint chart where the topic has led me to understand we want our Default Mii size to be at (in which I prtscr an excel sheet and draw a circle):
Does this look correct, or am I misunderstanding something?
So wait, what do "1/4" and "1/2" mean in context of the previous page? Is "1/4" a quarter of the way up the line, or is 1/4 the minheight? Is 1/2 the half mark?
That's what I figured. I missed any mention of minheight on the previous page so I left it out.
EDIT:
Min height is also not optimal because you lose range...If the optimal Swordfighter were to be made it be somewhere in between min height and default and thinish.
Well, Here's version 2 of the previous chart. Blue is more optimal, orange is 'acceptable'. Although it sounds like this may also be incorrect, by Antonykun's recent post.
I don't know if it's supposed to be talked about here, but do you peeps think this stuff will even be discussed in the Smash Back Room or will they ignore the Miis and their variables in the production of their analyses and lists?
I guess I'll make 1/4 Height - Thin and Default - Thin Mii Swordfighters just in case (and to test stuff out myself). Then again, I wonder if this setup really gives a different meaning to Sword Mii's viability, since it's just a slightly faster and whatnot. It's still a slow character in the general case, no?
I don't know much about the Smash Back Room. Just judging from how inactive the Swordfighter forum is, I seriously doubt it. Especially when you have people that come here to taunt/mock how terrible this class is. Sigh... right. This is not place to vent my frustration. Anyways...
Yeah, he is a slow character. You can tell just by playing default compared to the other Mii Classes. His attack speed is overall faster than Mii Gunner (http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU) but Gunner has range, faster movements (airspeed mainly), and F-Air mobility. You see, being a melting pot of Pre-patch Ike, Link, and Kirby (without carrying the traits that made them good) did not help him much. Especially with the ending lag in most of his moves. With this size change, we help him a lot. We decrease his startup on most of the attacks and increase his movement in exchange for shorter range and less power (both negligible).
I don't know much about the Smash Back Room. Just judging from how inactive the Swordfighter forum is, I seriously doubt it. Especially when you have people that come here to taunt/mock how terrible this class is. Sigh... right. This is not place to vent my frustration. Anyways...
Yeah, he is a slow character. You can tell just by playing default compared to the other Mii Classes. His attack speed is overall faster than Mii Gunner (http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU) but Gunner has range, faster movements (airspeed mainly), and F-Air mobility. You see, being a melting pot of Pre-patch Ike, Link, and Kirby (without carrying the traits that made them good) did not help him much. Especially with the ending lag in most of his moves. With this size change, we help him a lot. We decrease his startup on most of the attacks and increase his movement in exchange for shorter range and less power (both negligible).
Still, you'd think they're obligated to analyze every character for the sake of match-ups and tier lists.
Anyway, in regards to the size and whatnot, I suppose speed is a necessity since the difference in power is only a few % anyway. I'm just wondering how easier you'll get smashed out of the stage (if you go with Thin-Small set especially) in comparison to Heavy Tall, since you don't want to be too floaty or light as well.
Meh, should they do it? Yes, of course. Are they obligate to analyze? Nope. I mean Mii Fighters are left out in Running Speed/ Walking Speed, Reflect/Absorb/Counter Analysis and so for. But now that, Mii and Custom are becoming "standard", we might see something. The fact that John12346 is here means we are getting somewhere.
Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!
We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.
Since Miis get to have more than 10 sets, of course we're going to grant the power to you guys. With a good amount of special moves to choose from, I'm sure no Swordfighter can object to this nice combination of specials. I did see a bit of discussion over Power Thrust's utility, and while I'm not sure it really has any use, you guys did seem interested in it. If we were to include it in the combinations, you guys would have 24 sets which might be overkill, but if you need to have some sets including it, I'm sure we could fit them in.
And of course, please confirm that 1/4 height and thinnest is what you want in Swordfighter. I took him into training mode myself and it seemed like the optimized way to use him. If you guys have any better combinations I'd like to hear it, but keep in mind we're going to stick with a standardized height and weight, okay?
Mii Swordfighter(16 sets):
1/4 height, thinnest
1/2, 2/3, 1/3, 1/2
2231 2211 2232 2212 1231 1211 1232 1212 2331 2311 2332 2312 1331 1311 1332 1312
Note: Do you want any Power Thrust sets?
Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!
We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.
Since Miis get to have more than 10 sets, of course we're going to grant the power to you guys. With a good amount of special moves to choose from, I'm sure no Swordfighter can object to this nice combination of specials. I did see a bit of discussion over Power Thrust's utility, and while I'm not sure it really has any use, you guys did seem interested in it. If we were to include it in the combinations, you guys would have 24 sets which might be overkill, but if you need to have some sets including it, I'm sure we could fit them in.
And of course, please confirm that 1/4 height and thinnest is what you want in Swordfighter. I took him into training mode myself and it seemed like the optimized way to use him. If you guys have any better combinations I'd like to hear it, but keep in mind we're going to stick with a standardized height and weight, okay?
Mii Swordfighter(16 sets):
1/4 height, thinnest
1/2, 2/3, 1/3, 1/2
2231 2211 2233 2213 1231 1211 1233 1213 2331 2311 2333 2313 1331 1311 1333 1313
Note: Do you want any Power Thrust sets?
No 213 (2/3)? It's currently the best set imo.
we already know that SoL is the best nspec for Swordfighter.
AA is the least bad/redundant of side bs so why not.
Hero's Spin is the best recovery overall and a good OOS
Cape and PT are also good in neutral.
Okay, first off I made a typo. All the sets I posted were supposed to have Blade Counter and Reversal Slash as the only available DownBs, with no Power Thrust sets. I fixed that just now.
Next, keep in mind that I based these sets solely from what I could gather from the conversation. I didn't seem to see any desire towards Airborne Assault nor Power Thrust whatsoever, so they weren't included. From what I could gather, as far as SideBs, Slash Launcher was the superior "mobility and recovery" custom and kind of made AA redundant as a result.
Keep in mind none of this is my opinion, just what I saw from the discussion here. If you want to see those moves in, just make a case for 'em, here and now.
Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!
We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.
Since Miis get to have more than 10 sets, of course we're going to grant the power to you guys. With a good amount of special moves to choose from, I'm sure no Swordfighter can object to this nice combination of specials. I did see a bit of discussion over Power Thrust's utility, and while I'm not sure it really has any use, you guys did seem interested in it. If we were to include it in the combinations, you guys would have 24 sets which might be overkill, but if you need to have some sets including it, I'm sure we could fit them in.
And of course, please confirm that 1/4 height and thinnest is what you want in Swordfighter. I took him into training mode myself and it seemed like the optimized way to use him. If you guys have any better combinations I'd like to hear it, but keep in mind we're going to stick with a standardized height and weight, okay?
Mii Swordfighter(16 sets):
1/4 height, thinnest
1/2, 2/3, 1/3, 1/2
2231 2211 2233 2213 1231 1211 1233 1213 2331 2311 2333 2313 1331 1311 1333 1313
Note: Do you want any Power Thrust sets?
Hmm... interesting. I believe you mean Airborne Assault set since none of the sets have X1XX in them but have XXX3 (which is Power Thrust). Just change any set that has Sword Launcher and Power Thrust (X2X3) to Airborne Assault and Power Thrust (X1X3) because former is redundant imo. Sword Launcher is basically a hybrid of Power Thrust and Airborne Assault in terms of recovery and gap closer, however, it lacks Power Thrust - early kill potential and ability to beat weak projectiles and Airborne Assault - Better arc in recovery.
Just saw the edit: Hmm let's see. After a long evaluation on all the sets, I believe you should trade these three (1331,1212,1211) in favor for (2131,2132,2133) for now. If anyone has objection, we have up to 17th to fight about it.
It seems like the biggest point of contention is what kinds of combinations you should be running with. As it stands your possible set combinations look like this:
1/2, 1/2/3, 1/3, 1/2/3
Which is a total of 36 sets, which I think we can all agree is a mite overkill. Since it seems apparent that the existence of Power Thrust neutralizes the use of Slash Launcher, and ALSO needs to be paired with Airborne Assault, we can actually narrow this down.
1/2, 1, 1/3, 3 = 4 sets(these would be the essential sets and come first on the list of course)
1/2, 2/3, 1/3, 1/2 = 16 sets
For a total of 20. The drawback here is that Airborne Assault won't be paired up with the other Down Specials, but this is a much more manageable lineup. How does that sound?
Hmm... interesting. I believe you mean Airborne Assault set since none of the sets have X1XX in them but have XXX3 (which is Power Thrust). Just change any set that has Sword Launcher and Power Thrust (X2X3) to Airborne Assault and Power Thrust (X1X3) because former is redundant imo. Sword Launcher is basically a hybrid of Power Thrust and Airborne Assault in terms of recovery and gap closer, however, it lacks Power Thrust - early kill potential and ability to beat weak projectiles and Airborne Assault - Better arc in recovery.
Just saw the edit: Hmm let's see. After a long evaluation on all the sets, I believe you should trade these three (1331,1212,1211) in favor for (2131,2132,2133) for now. If anyone has objection, we have up to 17th to fight about it.
Could you go to training mode, use the raccoon leaf and go as far offstage with Quarter/thin in a single jump to see if Double Jump plus Hero's Spin means a recovery? My 3DS is too busy dowloading MH4U
I tested this on 3DS Final Destination - You can recover from offscreen, but you cannot go TOO far offscreen otherwise you're obviously not going to make it. Regardless, the recovery distance is massive, you can trust me on that.
Also, regarding the sets I just proposed, it may also be prudent to combine AA with one other Down Special to help allow for more options. If you add one to 1/2, 1, 1/3, 3 the number of sets will go up from 20 to 24, and I suppose that's the absolute limit of movesets we want to have for one specific Mii Fighter. So expanding on that point, I would assume you would want one of the following combinations of sets:
And If I had to guess, it would probably be the one with the reflector, but you guys mull it over for yourselves. But let's say 24 is the maximum we can allow for movesets on a Mii, okay?
Hero's Spin recovery is amazing! We are lucky to have something like that.
Bold Claim - Hero's Spin is the best recovery out all the Mii Classes (if they are forced to use their Up Bs only and no Wall Jump).
I still believe 24 - hell 20 is insane. Swordfighter is a small niche group. We don't need so many sets imo. But I am fine with this:
1/2, 1, 1/3, 3 = 4 sets(these would be the essential sets and come first on the list of course)
1/2, 2/3, 1/3, 1/2 = 16 sets
Or what Antonykun mention - Drop Gale Strike.
EDIT: Gale Strike make characters like Link/Megaman sort of useless since the move blocks all their projectiles. Sigh... I don't know anymore. Haha... you know, this fun. It has been a while since theorycraft for Swordfighter.
Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!
We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.
Since Miis get to have more than 10 sets, of course we're going to grant the power to you guys. With a good amount of special moves to choose from, I'm sure no Swordfighter can object to this nice combination of specials. I did see a bit of discussion over Power Thrust's utility, and while I'm not sure it really has any use, you guys did seem interested in it. If we were to include it in the combinations, you guys would have 24 sets which might be overkill, but if you need to have some sets including it, I'm sure we could fit them in.
And of course, please confirm that 1/4 height and thinnest is what you want in Swordfighter. I took him into training mode myself and it seemed like the optimized way to use him. If you guys have any better combinations I'd like to hear it, but keep in mind we're going to stick with a standardized height and weight, okay?
Mii Swordfighter(16 sets):
1/4 height, thinnest
1/2, 2/3, 1/3, 1/2
2231 2211 2232 2212 1231 1211 1232 1212 2331 2311 2332 2312 1331 1311 1332 1312
Note: Do you want any Power Thrust sets?
What does the "1/2, 2/3, 1/3, 1/2" part mean, is that in regards to the moveset or the height?
I am glad that 1231 and 2231 are included. I'm still doubting between Gale Strike and SoL, mostly because I fail at using SoL because whenever I try to use it to create distance it's like I'm throwing a ball at someone but that ball ends up falling to the ground just a few meters short from the target.
I notice the inclusion of Skyward Slash Dash in the movesets. I haven't seen people mentioning Skyward Slash Dash (Up-B2), but I could be wrong. Does it have any pros that outweigh or rival what Airborn Assault or Hero's Spin have to offer?
Hero's Spin recovery is amazing! We are lucky to have something like that.
Bold Claim - Hero's Spin is the best recovery out all the Mii Classes (if they are forced to use their Up Bs only and no Wall Jump).
I still believe 24 - hell 20 is insane. Swordfighter is a small niche group. We don't need so many sets imo. But I am fine with this:
1/2, 1, 1/3, 3 = 4 sets(these would be the essential sets and come first on the list of course)
1/2, 2/3, 1/3, 1/2 = 16 sets
As far as UpB recoveries, yes.
I personally would have the essential sets be:
2,1,1/3,1/2/3 =6 sets
and a few others to catch the different but otherwise inferior Gale Strike and Chakram
As far as UpB recoveries, yes.
I personally would have the essential sets be:
2,1,1/3,1/2/3 =6 sets
and a few others to catch the different but otherwise inferior Gale Strike and Chakram
*2, 1/2, 1/3, 1/2/3
Don't you dare underestimating Sword Launcher. It's at least more reliable whereas opponents can easily dodge an Airborn Assault through sheer dodging (example: them Shiek hitboxes). It's funny how Chakram is no longer being heralded as "One of Swordfighter's best assets". That makes me kind of fear we might still overlook stuff regarding Swordfighter even after the Custom Moveset Project has come to an conclusion.
*2, 1/2, 1/3, 1/2/3
Don't you dare underestimating Sword Launcher. It's at least more reliable whereas opponents can easily dodge an Airborn Assault through sheer dodging (example: them Shiek hitboxes). It's funny how Chakram is no longer being heralded as "One of Swordfighter's best assets". That makes me kind of fear we might still overlook stuff regarding Swordfighter even after the Custom Moveset Project has come to an conclusion.
Still, it's an undeniable fact that Slash Launcher does have it's own set of uses in terms of recovery, as well as somewhat safe onstage applications. Upon further consideration the 2, 1/2, 1/3, 1/2/3 set seems to be a good way to go, but we can add to it further like so:
2, 1/2, 1/3, 1/2/3 = 12 sets, the current "essential" sets
1, 1/2/3, 1/3, 3 = 6 sets. From what I can tell, the use of Gale is to fight specific projectile-heavy matchups. As such, it would be more preferable to have the Reversal Slash in any set involving Gale. You may also want the projectile utility of Chakram with SoL out of the picture in these sets.
This gives us a much more manageable 18 sets, and seem to cover the various playstyles a Swordfighter might want to pull out. So how does this sound?
As funny as it is to have more essential sets than other characters have sets at all. I will admit that this covers pretty much everything Swordfighter wants to do.
