Data Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Mii Gunner

[Amazing Ampharos]

Welcome to the official Smashboards Standard Custom Set project. In brief, this project is designed to be a logistical solution to using custom movesets in tournaments by filling many of the in-game slots with the most popular and powerful sets for each character so they can be quickly selected without further 3ds import. This will allow tournaments with customizations on to save large amounts of time throughout the event. More details about the project's ideas and mission can be found here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

Our goal here is to find out what the most popular and powerful sets are for your particular character the best way we know how: asking you the mains of this character. To be clear, we're not talking about disallowing any particular custom sets or even imposing any rules in general; we're talking about making sure the popular and powerful options are simply accessible quickly in a tournament environment as our sole mission. We need up to three critical sets that represent the best options your character has that have wide general utility and from there to fill up to slot 6 with supplemental movesets that will cover less mainstream, more match-up specific, or even teams sets. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow all moves to be explored more easily in the new metagame, and slots 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import of non-standard sets.

Please list all movesets in the order NSUD, that is neutral special, side special, up special, and down special. This four digit code will be the naming convention so players can quickly and easily identify which moveset is which.

Since your character is a Mii Fighter, we will need to know Mii Size in addition to moveset. We'll be representing minimum size as Small, maximum size as Big, min height max width as Wide, max height min width as Tall, and the default Mii as Normal. If you wish to use a size that does not fit any of those criteria, please indicate it as Custom and describe precisely how the parameters are to be set.

As a Mii Fighter, your character does not have slot limits like an ordinary fighter. You are free to include as many sets as will be useful and are not limited to six, but please do try to only include sets that are reasonably likely to be picked as creating Miis is a slower and more time consuming process than setting custom movesets for an ordinary fighter.

I would ask that everyone please be respectful of each other's opinions; this game is young, and the metagame is still very much forming so we are likely to each perceive it differently. This project will be revisited throughout the game's lifespan and revised to properly include the most mainstream movesets at the time. What we want for now is what will be commonly selected for now, and don't worry, other options are not being discriminated against as those last two slots are left open for 3ds transfer for a reason. This first version of this project will be refined throughout the rest of the year, but I hope to have a very rough draft up and usable by December 5 so TOs who wish to use the results of this project will have something to plug in for that weekend's worth of events. Thank you for your cooperation in this project, and we look forward to making sure the most useful options are quickly available for your character under this system.

 

[Reaperfan]

The setups I tend to use most go something like:

3111
3211
3112
3212
1111
1112

Height/Weight is minimum height, average weight (achieved by turning the height slider as far down as possible and leaving weight slider at the default). Occasionally I also use Average/Average since I still personally can't decide between whether I prefer the subtle range>speed tradeoff as a gunner.

 

[san.]

I prefer just above minimum height and maximum weight. Just enough height to hit people on Battlefield's platform with up smash, but a good enough ratio to fire 2 fairs from a full hop.

Setups are going to be this:

Neutral B: Always 3. It dominates the other options. Occasionally the others may be used, but I can't see this happening often. Even if it's reflected or absorbed, it doesn't do much. If you absorb it before it explodes, you only heal 1 damage.
Side B: You'll see any one of these used. I personally prefer 1. However, 3 is great against Ness since magnet doesn't work on the missle.
upB: All are decent and there will be people who want to play each. I prefer 3 since it gives you the most reliable recovery, and you don't need to attack with upB with this character.
downB: 1 and 2 need to be available for use for everyone. A choice between shine and magnet are great tools. If your opponent has a reflector, energy projectile, or explosive projectile, you'll want magnet bar none. If your attack is reflected, you have more than enough time to absorb your own attack and heal yourself. Shine is great at pretty much everything else. 1 is alright, but it just gets outperformed by other specials.

So overall it looks like this:

3
X (though I prefer 1)
X (though I prefer 3)
1 or 2 (though many still like 1)

Yeah, good luck with that.

 

[warriorman222]

I prefer just above minimum height and maximum weight. Just enough height to hit people on Battlefield's platform with up smash, but a good enough ratio to fire 2 fairs from a full hop.

Setups are going to be this:

Neutral B: Always 3. It dominates the other options. Occasionally the others may be used, but I can't see this happening often. Even if it's reflected or absorbed, it doesn't do much. If you absorb it before it explodes, you only heal 1 damage.
Side B: You'll see any one of these used. I personally prefer 1. However, 3 is great against Ness since magnet doesn't work on the missle.
upB: All are decent and there will be people who want to play each. I prefer 3 since it gives you the most reliable recovery, and you don't need to attack with upB with this character.
downB: 2 and 3 need to be available for use for everyone. A choice between shine and magnet are great tools. If your opponent has a reflector, energy projectile, or explosive projectile, you'll want magnet bar none. If your attack is reflected, you have more than enough time to absorb your own attack and heal yourself. Shine is great at pretty much everything else. 1 is alright, but it just gets outperformed by other specials.

So overall it looks like this:

3
X (though I prefer 1)
X (though I prefer 3)
2 or 3 (though many still like 1)

Yeah, good luck with that.

1 is Echo Reflector, 2 is Bomb Drop if I remember correctly.

 

[san.]

I think you're right, thanks!

 

[Big O]

I think it's already been mentioned Neutral B 3 is way better than the others, so I'm just gonna say I agree with that sentiment.

Side B 1 and 3 both have merits. Side B 1 is probably more useful in projectile wars since the flame pillar it creates also eats other projectiles. The trapping and setup potential of the homing variant of Side B 3 can be useful against characters without projectiles.

Personally I like his Up B 2 as an OoS option. It has invincibility frames and comes out fairly quick. I think short Mii's have good enough mobility to not really need much to make it back. That said Up B 1 is probably my number 2 choice. I feel like Up B 1 is just plain better than Up B 3. Up B 3 feels like a more exploitable recovery to me and has not hitboxes.

All variants of Down B are viable and are largely MU dependent. Bombs vs non-projectile characters, magnet vs absorbable projectiles, and shine for the rest.

As far as height/weight is concerned, Small/Wide is best imo. You get the most mobility, most weight, strongest damage/knockback, and the least amount of lag on your attacks. Being Tall could be useful vs characters weakest to your zoning, but the lack of mobility is pretty jarring. Being Thin makes you weaker in damage and knockback. It also doesn't boost your mobility as dramatically as being short does, while being fat also makes certain attacks larger. Small/Wide is really the best of both worlds.

Small/Wide

3121

3322

3123

3111

3312

3113

I like pairing missiles with the bombs against non-projectile characters, otherwise I opt for Side B 1. Half have Up B 2 and the rest have Up B 1.

 

[dbwithlemon]

I've been enjoying
2112
2122
Laser to rack up dmg and force their approach,
then Flame Pillar and Bomb to space them.
I'm still torn on recovery, the uppercut doesn't give great range, but it's a fantastic move, especially OOS.

 

[GS3K]

My main sizes are

• nearly tall, average weight gunner
• slightly above average height, average weight gunner

3111 (grenade, flame pillar, lunar launch, reflector)
1111 (same as above, but with charge shot instead)
3312 (grenade, missile, lunar, bomb)
3311 (grenade, missile, lunar, reflector)

 

[dbwithlemon]

My current build is one Big O and GS3K mentioned
3312.
Grenade, missle and Bomb just put up a wall of explosives that is hard to penetrate.
Coupled with a short/fat mii and Lunar Launch makes for very mobile harassment

It doesn't have the killing power of including Charge Shot or Uppercut, but I've found it doesn't need it as it makes approaching you very difficult

 

[mimgrim]

I always go minimum shortness and minimum weight for max mobility and making it damn hard for me opponent to hit me for Gunner now.

My general set-up is 3222. The general idea is to induce fear into the opponent with your traps and zoning capabilities that can kill and that you can converge off of and I can't see myself switching to another set-up for any particular MU. If I'm going against another projectile user I would rather just combat against them with my own projectiles as I'm fairly confident mine are superior.

The thing that is probably making most of you got "wtf" is Stealth Burst. Well you see, all of Gunner's Sides are laggy and need smart use to not be punished. Burst is a really good trapping tool with killing capabilities and fits into me inducing fear into my opponent. Grenade and Bomb should be obvious. Uppercut is to make my opponent more afraid of getting close to me due to adding another close range option for gunner that serves and getting the opponent out of his space.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

I keep my Mii version of myself at max height and medium weight while having a 1233 moveset.

 

[Marigi174]

Most tournaments are running with the limitation of special number one. However, due to this not always being the case, there are nine setups which allow for optimal utility with Mii Gunner:

1. 3111
2. 3121
3. 3131
4. 3112
5. 3122
6. 3132
7. 3113
8. 3123
9. 3133

These are all variations of custom moveset number one, listing all possible combinations of Mii Gunner's competitively viable options* Here is the reasoning for the variations in each one:

*Stealth Burst is missing as I could not find a single scenario where I'd rather use Stealth Burst - which has that irritating float ing effect of Din's Fire which has literally no competitive use due to its poor range of recovery and need for existing foreward momentum/a hill to work just to troll you even more than the move's mediocrity would otherwise - over a FAir, Grenade Launch or Bomb Drop. Its straight trajectory, which lacks the directional influence of the move it is based around (Din's Fire), makes it really difficult to hit or zone with, and it lacks the trapping effect of Grenade Launch, giving it no useful utility.

Constant: Neutral 3 - Grenade Launch: Grenade Launch has so much utility going for it, making it something which should never be passed up if it is available. Grenade Launch is such a great zoning option due to its good damage output, curving arc, variable range and utility with B-reversals, allowing for a greater range of mix-ups which utilise it. It can help Mii Gunner get in close enough for the opponent to be in range of its FAirs, it can help Mii Gunner zone his/her opponent to get them where they are wanted by the Gunner player and, similarly, it can be used to force a low recovery - which means that, on movesets which utilise Up 2 (Cannon Uppercut), you can go in for a spike back to the stage in a similar manner to how Zelda zones recoverys with on-stage phantom slash zone into DAir spike, and to how Duck Hunt uses the explosive can to force the opponent to where they can be picked off with a DAir spike - and allowing Mii Gunner to maintain his/her offensive presence even when their opponent is at a point where they are safe from the barrage of projectiles.​

Now onto the moveset descriptions:

1. This moveset can be thought of the 'base moveset' - the template around which the moves are rotated - and it is primarily focused on palying from a distance. This moveset focuses on forcing the opponent back with a barrage of projectiles, making it hard for said rival to come in and start racking up damage. In addition, it focuses on the rejection of opponents who utilise similar strategies against it and, in cases where they do penetrate the pseudo wall of pain, allow for easy access back to the ground to continue the barage, courtesy of the projectile hitbox of Lunar Launch forcing your opponent to the side so that you can fastfall in opposite direction to get back to the ground. Flame Pillar's Lucas-esque effect allows the Mii Gunner player not only to force them back (and, as such, space effectively), but the fact that it lingers for a few seconds, similar to Robin's Arcfire or Ness' PK Fire, means that it is a little easier to capitalise on the way that your opponent reacts; if they hang back, you can move in a little closer with a wall of FAirs to punish jumping approaches or hold back and fire off a slightly extended Grenade Launch to force them into the air or further backward and act accordingly. If they go for a jumping approach, feel free to punish with an instant-release Grenade Launch or foil the approach with a barrage of FAirs before forcing them back again with another Flame Pillar. If they towards you, capitalise on that with jabs, a grab, an FTilt or a UTilt. If they fall back, great; just get another barrage of projectiles going; its free damage.
2. This one works similarly to moveset 1, except it sacrifices recovery from both off-stage and in the air for the ability to utilise the spiking hitbox of Cannon Uppercut in conjunction with the low recoveries forced by Grenade Launch. This means that it is more offensively oriented, allowing it to steal a little extra momentum from recovering opponents, and it allows Mii Gunner to focus more on early KOs as opposed to recovery.
3. Once again, a similar premise to moveset 1 except that it is more about survivability as opposed to off-stage offense or above-stage recovery.
   
4. This is the same as number one, except that it exchanges the reflection and shine-effect of the Echo Reflector for the edgeguarding utility provided by Bomb Drop. Bomb Drop is one of Mii Gunner's best moves due to the single hitbox having higher priority than any of the hits of Grenade Launch (allowing it to rip through Mechakoopa) and its trajectory making it a good option to catch low recoveries and ledge grabs.
5. This is the same as number two with Bomb Drop>Echo Reflector, allowing for edgeguarding utility and the ability to just rip through moves like Mechakoopa.
6. This is the same as number three with Bomb Drop>Echo Reflector.
7. This is the same as number one and number four, except that it exchanges the reflection/shine of Echo Reflector and the edgeguarding utility of Bomb Drop for the absorption of energy projectiles and psuedo-wavedash which allows for a delayed perfect pivot, which provides more mixup spacing options.
8. Same as number two and number five with Absorbing Vortex>Echo Reflector/Bomb Drop.
9. Same as number three and number six with Absorbing Vortex>Echo Reflector/Bomb Drop.

Mii Gunner is hands down the best Mii Fighter and I can't wait to see it in competitive play, as it hasn't received as much love in tournaments as it deserves.

 

[Kenturo]

Mii
The only Miis that I see as being viable are the Small, Wide, and Default. Small and Wide are probably the best because of the mobility and lag. Im really not a fan of default miis as mobility is more important than range imo and they actually do less damage than wide miis. Default just feels really clunky to me but people have their preferences and I think it still could be viable.

Essential Moveset

3132
3232
3332

What I believe the be the best moveset for gunner. I personally run 3132 but a lot of other people on this board seem to like running missile or stealth burst. Each one of the side bs have their own advantages and disadvantages. I prefer having flame pillar because of its projectile cancelling ability. Arm Rocket is the best Up B simply because it is the best recovery move. The Uppercut is a great kill move but a terrible recovery move. Against a good player you will never be able to make it on stage running this move. The Lunar Launch is a good recover move if you can sweet spot the ledge but otherwise your just as vulnerable as you would be running Uppercut and the spike hitbox is extremely hard to land. Arm Rocket provides reliable recovery. Reflector and Absorption are decent but in an actual match you'll probably only be able one of two projectile before the opponent stops using projectiles. But regardless of that bomb drop is still superior. It does massive shield damage and most importantly it provides gunner with his only way to safely land on the stage. I dont think there is any dispute about grenade launcher.

Just my opinion on what i think are the best moves to run.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Mii Gunner seems like a tough case to narrow down, and it may be lucky for us that Mii Gunner has effectively infinite slots.

On neutral special, as far as I can tell, there's close to a consensus to standardize on neutral-3. The grenade is just too good to give up.

On side, I'm seeing advocacy for all three, substantial advocacy, but a lot less for side-2 than side-1 and side-3 (side-1 vs side-3 seems to be a big player preference point).

On up, I legitimately find it hard to keep straight which move is which and what's good or bad. Is there any way up can be narrowed down? I find it kinda hard to believe that all three of these are worth using.

On down, it seems like all three moves are pure counterpicking options. Bomb Drop is a good move, but there are match-ups where the other side has good projectiles that each of the other two could make sense (like you'd obviously want the reflector against Villager and obviously would want the absorb shield against Lucario).

Size is also a problem unique to Mii characters and is something that should definitely be addressed. I've heard it suggested several times that a particular gunner who is min width and of 1/4 height (half-way between default and shortest) is the best gunner, but I've seen support for several other builds. This will be the hardest issue for non-Mii mains to filter through so if any kind of consensus can be reached on height that would be really helpful!

In terms of how much we should aim to narrow this down, 10 isn't a hard limit as with other characters, but we have to be reasonable to the people who will be setting up these consoles as Mii characters take a lot of time to make and including every option for Mii Gunner as laid out currently would be 27 movesets times however many size variants seem good which is... not reasonable. Hopefully we can narrow down things greatly in the coming weeks for this very complicated and very underexplored character.

 

[Kenturo]

What are the benefits of running a 1/4 height Mii over a wide mii?

I think that we should stay with the 5 sizes(small,wide,tall, etc) for now because they are way easier for TO's to manage. One tick too high or too low could probably be detrimental to the player. (though probably not)

 

[Reaperfan]

On up, I legitimately find it hard to keep straight which move is which and what's good or bad. Is there any way up can be narrowed down? I find it kinda hard to believe that all three of these are worth using.

To the best of my knowledge, their strengths go something like this:

Up-1: Best distance and height as far as it being a recovery move. Gimpable because it has no hitbox above you, but difficult to do so because of it's speed. Useful offensively only as a somewhat situational edgeguard similar to a faster-acting but weaker Bowser Jr. Up-1.

Up-2: The best option offensively as it provides a legitimate and reliable OoS kill option. The worst option for recovery.

Up-3: A bit less distance than Up-1, but more control over the angle. More gimpable than Up-1 due to its slower speed and lack of a hitbox above you. To the best of my knowledge, completely useless offensively.

Personal opinion, 1 and 2 are the most advantageous, with 1 being the most versatile and 2 reallocating one of Gunner's primary weaknesses ('lack of good kill moves' becomes 'lack of reliable recovery').

Size is also a problem unique to Mii characters and is something that should definitely be addressed. I've heard it suggested several times that a particular gunner who is min width and of 1/4 height (half-way between default and shortest) is the best gunner, but I've seen support for several other builds. This will be the hardest issue for non-Mii mains to filter through so if any kind of consensus can be reached on height that would be really helpful!

As far as height/weight goes, at least for now, I think we're best off putting a pin in the subject until after EVO and stick with default sizes. Miis are a complicated and difficult enough subject to figure out, and it's a godsend we've been given as much opportunity with them as we have at such a prestigious event. But from the interview we had here, it really doesn't sound like Mr. Wizard knows much of anything about the Mii debate as it is, and simplifying the process as much as possible is our best bet for making them a smooth implementation. You cite later how we can fudge the 10-loadout limit a bit with Miis but that we shouldn't get unreasonable, but if you ask me, having to accomodate different sizes will push the loadout number to no less than 24-30 slots, and with EVO not allowing personal 3DS uploads everything we decide will have to be preuploaded meaning the same moveset loadout would have to be done multiple times just for different sizes. Default isn't the optimal size, but I don't think the advantages offered by size are too terribly significant for gunner (size is more prevalent for Brawler IMHO). If nothing else, it's a significantly less impactful compromise to make than being forced into only 1111 loadouts.

In terms of how much we should aim to narrow this down, 10 isn't a hard limit as with other characters, but we have to be reasonable to the people who will be setting up these consoles as Mii characters take a lot of time to make and including every option for Mii Gunner as laid out currently would be 27 movesets times however many size variants seem good which is... not reasonable. Hopefully we can narrow down things greatly in the coming weeks for this very complicated and very underexplored character.

I say we really try to shoot for 10 as best we can for fairness's sake across the cast, but if we absolutely have to 15 sounds like the best we can do without being unreasonable.

 

[Kenturo]

To the best of my knowledge, their strengths go something like this:

Up-1: Best distance and height as far as it being a recovery move. Gimpable because it has no hitbox above you, but difficult to do so because of it's speed. Useful offensively only as a somewhat situational edgeguard similar to a faster-acting but weaker Bowser Jr. Up-1.

Up-2: The best option offensively as it provides a legitimate and reliable OoS kill option. The worst option for recovery.

Up-3: A bit less distance than Up-1, but more control over the angle. More gimpable than Up-1 due to its slower speed and lack of a hitbox above you. To the best of my knowledge, completely useless offensively.

Personal opinion, 1 and 2 are the most advantageous, with 1 being the most versatile and 2 reallocating one of Gunner's primary weaknesses ('lack of good kill moves' becomes 'lack of reliable recovery').

That is definitely incorrect. Up-B 3 has more distance horizontally and vertically. I don't know why you think Up-B 3 is more gimpable when you can mix up the direction of your recovery as opposed to up-B 1 where you can only go upwards.

 

[Reaperfan]

I don't know why you think Up-B 3 is more gimpable when you can mix up the direction of your recovery as opposed to up-B 1 where you can only go upwards.

Because it's linear, slower, stalls your momentum, and has no hitbox above you to keep people off you as opposed to Up-1's arcing motion that launches you suddenly, preserves aerial speed, and allows adjustment afterward. All the opponent has to do is drop a projectile or lingering hitbox attack in the line between you and the ledge and there's not much you can do with Up-3.

 

[Kenturo]

Because it's linear, slower, stalls your momentum, and has no hitbox above you to keep people off you as opposed to Up-1's arcing motion that launches you suddenly, preserves aerial speed, and allows adjustment afterward. All the opponent has to do is drop a projectile or lingering hitbox attack in the line between you and the ledge and there's not much you can do with Up-3.

Up-1 shares the same properties as Up-B 3 in the bolded above. Up-B 3 allows you to change the direction of your recovery to give you the chance to dodge the hitboxes while Up-B 1 does not allow those options.

 

[Reaperfan]

Up-1 shares the same properties as Up-B 3 in the bolded above. Up-B 3 allows you to change the direction of your recovery to give you the chance to dodge the hitboxes while Up-B 1 does not allow those options.

Can you curve Up-3 after you've started it? Unless they've added that in since I last used it I'm going to have to disagree with the part of your comment I bolded. Up-1 allows you to move left and right after executing the shot, while Up-3, as best I recall, is just a slow, straight shot in one direction. Both Up-1 and Up-3 share similar weaknesses, but in my experience it's more difficult for the opponent to pull off those same counter-strategies against Up-1 due to it's speed and your ability to stay mobile afterwards.

 

[Kenturo]

Can you curve Up-3 after you've started it? Unless they've added that in since I last used it I'm going to have to disagree with the part of your comment I bolded. Up-1 allows you to move left and right after executing the shot, while Up-3, as best I recall, is just a slow, straight shot in one direction. Both Up-1 and Up-3 share similar weaknesses, but in my experience it's more difficult for the opponent to pull off those same counter-strategies against Up-1 due to it's speed and your ability to stay mobile afterwards.

How does changing the direction after the move is used make it less gimpable? Changing the direction after the move is used doesn't mean anything because if you don't sweetspot the ledge, regardless of the recover, then you are put in special fall which makes it easy for the opponent to punish you. The reason why Lunar Launch is more gimpable than Arm Rocket is because the recovery is extremely predictable. The recover always moves at the same speed and at the same angle everytime. You are forced to always recover low to sweetspot just because of the angle that Lunar Launch has. Lets say that you are fighting a Sheik or any other character with a quick back air looking to stage spike you. If they know the angle at which you can recover to sweetspot the ledge, which is the same angle everytime, then they can easily predict when you are about the recover and stage spike you. Arm Rocket is harder to gimp because you have more angles from which you can sweetspot the ledge, making it hard for the Sheik to predict when to use her backair. You simply have more options to recover by using Arm Rocket.

 

[Marigi174]

Up 1 and up 2 definitely seem like the better options here. Also that part about up 3 having further horizontal recovery is false, with up 1 actually traveling FURTHER (albeit, only just) once it reaches the line of trajectory of the most horizontal up 3 if my observations are correct (prove me wrong if you must, cause there may be a bit of human error in that if I am wrong), allowing for recovery from further out. However, unlike up 3, it actually has a variable trajectory, making it a more effective recovery option due to:

• being harder to predict
• allowing more margin for control post-use (courtesy of the additional height)
• punishes ground-guards (allows easy access back to the stage from the air above it without resorting to the ledge)
• can punish particularly low recoveries, allowing for the recovery block of u-special-->stage-->bair

As for up 2, it is a scary option for characters with poor/predictable recoveries like Mac, DK and non-Jump Shulk. In addition, if the second jump is lost through edgeguarding, it is a great way to finish off opponents who are close-ish to the stage.

Up 3 just seems like its utility doesn't make up for its drawbacks now that I have thought about it deeper.

As for size, either we should just force the neutral Mii or we make bases for each (named to their matching build) to be used in tournaments so that import isn't needed. It doesn't take THAT long to set up a mii fighter (1 min max assuming no outfit), so it could be an option.

 

[Kenturo]

Up 1 and up 2 definitely seem like the better options here. Also that part about up 3 having further horizontal recovery is false, with up 1 actually traveling FURTHER (albeit, only just) once it reaches the line of trajectory of the most horizontal up 3 if my observations are correct (prove me wrong if you must, cause there may be a bit of human error in that if I am wrong), allowing for recovery from further out. However, unlike up 3, it actually has a variable trajectory, making it a more effective recovery option due to:

• being harder to predict
• allowing more margin for control post-use (courtesy of the additional height)
• punishes ground-guards (allows easy access back to the stage from the air above it without resorting to the ledge)
• can punish particularly low recoveries, allowing for the recovery block of u-special-->stage-->bair

As for up 2, it is a scary option for characters with poor/predictable recoveries like Mac, DK and non-Jump Shulk. In addition, if the second jump is lost through edgeguarding, it is a great way to finish off opponents who are close-ish to the stage.

Up 3 just seems like its utility doesn't make up for its drawbacks now that I have thought about it deeper.

As for size, either we should just force the neutral Mii or we make bases for each (named to their matching build) to be used in tournaments so that import isn't needed. It doesn't take THAT long to set up a mii fighter (1 min max assuming no outfit), so it could be an option.

You're right it actually does go slightly more horizontal than the Arm Rocket. You're reasons for saying that it is the more effective recovery has nothing to do with getting back to the stage. Arm Rocket is more effective as a recovery because there are more places that can grab the ledge from using it and it is harder to gimp overall. I'm just estimating here but it takes approximately 3 seconds for Lunar Launch to reach the distance that Arm Rocket reaches in 1.3 seconds.

Lunar Launch may situationally provide more utility but it means giving up the most effective and safest option for getting back to the ledge.

 

[Reaperfan]

Lunar Launch may situationally provide more utility but it means giving up the most effective and safest option for getting back to the ledge.

I still fail to see how a slow-moving, purely linear recovery that forces you to always aim for the ledge with no hitboxes worth mentioning is "most effective and safest."

 

[Kenturo]

I still fail to see how a slow-moving, purely linear recovery that forces you to always aim for the ledge with no hitboxes worth mentioning is "most effective and safest."

Like I said in my posts before, it is the most effective because there are more situations where using Arm Rocket you will be able to make it back on the stage and its the safest because it is the hardest one to gimp. I don't know why you saying aiming for the ledge is a bad thing because regardless of the Up B if you don't grab the ledge you are going to get punished.

 

[san.]

Size:
Higher weight isn't too useful for Gunner. It increases damage by slightly less than 1% at most and increases survivability by a slim margin. The tradeoff is that you're slower. Height defines ending lag and range, so it's best to tweak those. I wouldn't like dealing with default size even if it's less complicated. The lag on fair becomes much more punishable, and the aerials are tougher to deal with. I personally use 1/4 height and minimum weight.

UpB:

upB1 has an annoying delay before it triggers. That's why I prefer 3 over 1, since it's more responsive. 3 also has better recovery due to ledge snapping mechanics. Overall, I prefer the uppercut upB2, though. Having a hitbox above you is great and you still have an okay horizontal drift after using it. Gunner will be put in more dangerous positions without a hitbox above his upB recovery. In fact, upB2 can reverse edgeguarding attempts, making it dangerous to challenge him offstage.

Specials:
3
X (prioritize 1/3) 2 is situationally decent vs the likes of Mega Man and Villager, but we don't *really* need it. It's still decent and there are a few who like it. I prefer 3 since it deals shield damage and has combo ability.
2, (1 or 3) 1 and 3 are similar enough to just choose one of them.
X (2 is a must) 1 and 3 are gamechangers for a few anti-projectile MUs. 2 is a must for all other combinations, though.

 

[Kenturo]

Size:
Higher weight isn't too useful for Gunner. It increases damage by slightly less than 1% at most and increases survivability by a slim margin. The tradeoff is that you're slower. Height defines ending lag and range, so it's best to tweak those. I wouldn't like dealing with default size even if it's less complicated. The lag on fair becomes much more punishable, and the aerials are tougher to deal with. I personally use 1/4 height and minimum weight.

Why do you prefer 1/4 height? Weight seems to do everything height can do(minus range) without effecting lag. I also agree that default would be suboptimal because there is alot more lag.

 

[san.]

Why do you prefer 1/4 height? Weight seems to do everything height can do(minus range) without effecting lag. I also agree that default would be suboptimal because there is alot more lag.

I tested the killing difference between small/thin and tall/wide and the kill % was 1% at most, often times the same %.

Weight doesn't do much except slightly increase damage (and maybe hitstun) and survivability while decreasing speed. Making yourself thin brings you up a few tiers in ground/air speed which makes it much more useful imo.

Small Gunner has some trouble directly challenging attacks with nair and bair. Smashes and tilts are also a little short, and some other character's smashes may be able to challenge it. At 1/4 height, your range on utilt, bair, dsmash, grab, and usmash are much better for a small increase in ending lag. Nair can be spaced better against a variety of opponents as well.

 

[Ridel]

My default as of right now is 3312 which is a good camping set-up but I feel that using this gives me the bad habit of relying too much on my projectiles and it would take one good character who can use some sort of reflector wisely and get totally screwed over. I'm going to try to experiment with the set 1121 and see if that get's rid of those bad habits.

 

[Damix91]

San and others do you think small and thin is better or default. My region is finally allowing custom movesets on miis but is only allowing 3 mii sizes: small/thin, default and tall/wide.

 

[san.]

San and others do you think small and thin is better or default. My region is finally allowing custom movesets on miis but is only allowing 3 mii sizes: small/thin, default and tall/wide.

Out of those choices, small + thin. Default is pretty good and tall has great range on smash attacks. I just think that weight is best kept at minimum.

 

[CT Chia]

I'm seeing that Grenade Bomb for Neutral B is supposedly amazing, and I want lab time in with it to see why exactly, but guaranteed over Charge Shot? idk... You can frame trap opponents into landing pretty easily with moves like nair so you can smack em with a charge shot for good damage. It's also an extra kill option if they happen to get to the 150ish range, and attacks off stage well. I'm not always sold on Grenade Launch.

As for Down B I think Bomb Drop is the saving grace god move of this character lol. The other two serve practically the same purpose though in a way. All three can be useful, but holy crap is Bomb Drop amazing and I'm always using it lol.

Up B comes down to preference and I think I still like default. I want to experiment with the one you angle though.

Side B I can't decide, I really can't lol. They're all kind of meh. What do people think about this in general?

 

[digiholic]

I've been running Grenade-Missile-DunkCannon-Reflector, swapping reflector out for Bomb if my opponent doesn't have anything worth reflecting. You get insane ground control with this setup, with the timed explosion on the grenades, as well as shutting out the ability for them to out-spam you. You'll probably force them into the air, where you can try to harass with fairs, and maybe get a lucky sweetspot dunk.

 

[san.]

I've been running Grenade-Missile-DunkCannon-Reflector, swapping reflector out for Bomb if my opponent doesn't have anything worth reflecting. You get insane ground control with this setup, with the timed explosion on the grenades, as well as shutting out the ability for them to out-spam you. You'll probably force them into the air, where you can try to harass with fairs, and maybe get a lucky sweetspot dunk.

DunkCannon? lol.

I'm seeing that Grenade Bomb for Neutral B is supposedly amazing, and I want lab time in with it to see why exactly, but guaranteed over Charge Shot? idk... You can frame trap opponents into landing pretty easily with moves like nair so you can smack em with a charge shot for good damage. It's also an extra kill option if they happen to get to the 150ish range, and attacks off stage well. I'm not always sold on Grenade Launch.

As for Down B I think Bomb Drop is the saving grace god move of this character lol. The other two serve practically the same purpose though in a way. All three can be useful, but holy crap is Bomb Drop amazing and I'm always using it lol.

Up B comes down to preference and I think I still like default. I want to experiment with the one you angle though.

Side B I can't decide, I really can't lol. They're all kind of meh. What do people think about this in general?

It's mostly about control. While charge shot deals good damage and you can combo/trap into it, grenade allows you easier control of the battlefield. Grenade is chargeable, releases quickly once you're able to, you can choose the direction, and you can freely move in the air. Charge shot isn't a great kill move unless you can hit them offstage, but grenade helps you rack up damage just as well without buying up time to build up charge. It's pretty good as an alternative to uair/nair if you want to juggle people as well.

Missile by itself isn't that spectacular compared to other top tier projectiles, but it's reliable. It sends a projectile on a horizontal path that must be responded to, giving you some control in areas that are difficult to reach without a charged grenade which can leave you open. It deals bonus shield damage at a respectable 10% (+6) and doesn't have the 1 missile out at a time limitation that Samus has. Gunner can supplement grenades and fairs with the occasional missile to ward off approaches and attack from long range. Homing missile is slow, but it homes better than Samus'. You can also easily combo out of super missile.

UpB is up to preference. Once I got stomped by a Ganon with upB1/3, I learned that I'd rather have some good coverage above me with the DunkCannon. The ability to dunk people is also welcomed.

Bomb is just as good as you say. It covers areas that are difficult to reach with grenade and missile. It deals decent damage, so you can combo out of it. Its best feature is the shield damage. Grenade, Charge Shot, Missile, and Bomb Drop are all great for pressuring shields. Mix in safe-on-shield fair and that becomes a wall that's difficult to breach without risky maneuvers such as rolling, spot dodging, etc.

 

[CT Chia]

lmao which one is Dunk Cannon? Based on its nickname alone I want to use it

Also great write up san, I really appreciate all the knowledge you've been putting back here

Mii Gunner is my secondary, and I hope to use him more often in tourney with customs being on.

Also I read through this thread yesterday already but forget exactly what the mostly agreed height/weight is... Is it min weight with a height that's like 1/4-1/2 of max? As long as it's enough height to make your Up Smash connect fully on BF platforms that would be very beneficial. I've played some Miis that could and some that couldn't, but don't remember their height exactly.

 

[digiholic]

Cannon Uppercut. I hope the name Dunk Cannon takes off honestly. It's the most satisfying spike in the game, IMO.

 

[san.]

Up smash won't be able to fully connect on BF platforms unless you're above average height iirc. I use ~1/4 height for a few reasons:

-range is good: can outrange most with utilt, dsmash, and bair. Minimum height dsmash can barely beat out Diddy's ftilt.
-low lag
-Good movement
-Better autocancels such as short hop fast fall bair (nair can autocancel with a small delay after the shorthop)
-Nair is usable (too short at minimum height)
-Good grab (not too short, fast and low lag)

I suggest experimenting on your own. I thought average height + minimum width was great for a while, until I learned that I didn't have the speed to combat Sheik that well.

 

[Kenturo]

Testing out 1/4 Height Mii, it's definitely better than small miis mostly because of the fact that you can connect all hits of upsmash. I still prefer wide miis because of the damage. 1% doesn't seem like alot individually but it really adds up in a match especially because of the fact that gunner can't kill until the higher percents. But if everyone agrees to that Mii I would have no problem playing it.

 

[steelguttey]

why is the custom standard "wide"? does this also mean short? i assumed wide means tall and fat and that **** suuuucked so im wondering why thats the standard for gunner

 

[dbwithlemon]

why is the custom standard "wide"? does this also mean short? i assumed wide means tall and fat and that **** suuuucked so im wondering why thats the standard for gunner

Wide means fat, but not tall.
Mii's have 2 sizes, weight(width) and height.
People are saying Fat(Wide)/Short is the standard. Not Fat/Tall