Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Meta Knight

[Amazing Ampharos]

Welcome to the official Smashboards Standard Custom Set project. In brief, this project is designed to be a logistical solution to using custom movesets in tournaments by filling many of the in-game slots with the most popular and powerful sets for each character so they can be quickly selected without further 3ds import. This will allow tournaments with customizations on to save large amounts of time throughout the event. More details about the project's ideas and mission can be found here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

Our goal here is to find out what the most popular and powerful sets are for your particular character the best way we know how: asking you the mains of this character. To be clear, we're not talking about disallowing any particular custom sets or even imposing any rules in general; we're talking about making sure the popular and powerful options are simply accessible quickly in a tournament environment as our sole mission. We need up to three critical sets that represent the best options your character has that have wide general utility and from there to fill up to slot 6 with supplemental movesets that will cover less mainstream, more match-up specific, or even teams sets. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow all moves to be explored more easily in the new metagame, and slots 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import of non-standard sets.

Please list all movesets in the order NSUD, that is neutral special, side special, up special, and down special. This four digit code will be the naming convention so players can quickly and easily identify which moveset is which.

I know for many characters the default moveset, 1111, is a powerful and useful option. However, it should not be included; the game allows default to be picked regardless of what custom options are prepared so including it does not add any additional options to players.

I further know that some characters may find six slots a large number to fill. Others may find six very limiting. Do your best to pick out the overall six most likely to be picked even if some good stuff has to be left on the table or if some more experimental sets have to be included to fill out six. Every set included is time saved in tournament when that set would be picked, and we want to make the best use we can of these slots.

I would ask that everyone please be respectful of each other's opinions; this game is young, and the metagame is still very much forming so we are likely to each perceive it differently. This project will be revisited throughout the game's lifespan and revised to properly include the most mainstream movesets at the time. What we want for now is what will be commonly selected for now, and don't worry, other options are not being discriminated against as those last two slots are left open for 3ds transfer for a reason. This first version of this project will be refined throughout the rest of the year, but I hope to have a very rough draft up and usable by December 5 so TOs who wish to use the results of this project will have something to plug in for that weekend's worth of events. Thank you for your cooperation in this project, and we look forward to making sure the most useful options are quickly available for your character under this system.

 

[ItoI6]

the customs for shuttle loop and tornado are complete garbage and should never be used.

dimensional cape's customs arent as good as the regular i think some people might want to use them for fun idk

both customs for drill rush are actually interesting and viable picks so these should deserve a slot.

i guess itll be

1311
1211

and thats about it lol

if im missing some hidden potential in some other customs please tell

 

[Lavani]

If there's a legitimate reason to use any of the other customs I'll eat my cat.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So, let me endanger Lavani's cat a bit if I can...

Dreadful Tornado (neutral 3) is a stupid powerful kill move; it really does awful damage and is super unsafe so if it won't hit and kill it's awful, but with MK being how he is in this game, I can see a lot of merit in pretty much giving up Mach Tornado completely just to be able to punish mistakes with a very powerful kill move. It seems to be definitely the sort of option worth having access to; I'd definitely fight against MK way more respectfully if I was at Dreadful Tornado's kill percents and it was on deck.

I'm not entirely clear on what benefits standard Dimensional Cape offers over the shield piercing one. I have literally never seen an MK player I consider good in Brawl or this game (not that MK is very popular in this game) use Dimensional Cape's attack so trading power for unblockability seems like at worst a neutral value proposition but probably a slight upgrade on a move you'll still pretty much always just use to grab the ledge while not attacking. Is there some downside to this custom I'm not seeing?

 

[Lavani]

So, let me endanger Lavani's cat a bit if I can...

Dreadful Tornado (neutral 3) is a stupid powerful kill move; it really does awful damage and is super unsafe so if it won't hit and kill it's awful, but with MK being how he is in this game, I can see a lot of merit in pretty much giving up Mach Tornado completely just to be able to punish mistakes with a very powerful kill move. It seems to be definitely the sort of option worth having access to; I'd definitely fight against MK way more respectfully if I was at Dreadful Tornado's kill percents and it was on deck.

I'm not entirely clear on what benefits standard Dimensional Cape offers over the shield piercing one. I have literally never seen an MK player I consider good in Brawl or this game (not that MK is very popular in this game) use Dimensional Cape's attack so trading power for unblockability seems like at worst a neutral value proposition but probably a slight upgrade on a move you'll still pretty much always just use to grab the ledge while not attacking. Is there some downside to this custom I'm not seeing?

It's okay, I don't actually have a cat.

Dreadful Tornado's damage and knockback are both outclassed by Dimensional Cape's, and you give up your highest damage move for the former while there isn't any real reason to not have the latter. In fact, I think Dimensional Cape covers everything you're describing already, albeit with a tinge more startup but much more range.

Dimensional Cape's teleport travels 2/5 FD's length with quick startup, and on top of having a huge disjoint and dealing 14~16% its attack is one of MK's stronger KO moves. Shield Piercer has more vulnerable startup before the teleport, its teleport travels half the distance, and the attack has significantly reduced damage and next to no knockback. There's a second disjointed 1 damage hit with very weak stun that can hit while the sword strike whiffs, leaving the attack punishable on hit. And you're giving up both a KO move and a good teleport for it.

I might be missing something, but I don't see the draw to either. I guess there are four other slots to fill though.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

if they are ever caught charging a smash near you (like from the ledge ect) dim cape is literally your best option, even in brawl. they cant cancel it so you get free sword slash every time

 

[ItoI6]

I had high hopes for shield piercing cape but honestly its just not good at all. And you are really underestimating how strong and useful dimensional cape is, it can kill you at 100ish% center of fd with no rage and can sneak behind people charging smashes, or if you get a read from a roll or someone using a projectile. I don't have the dreadful tornado custom on my wiiu so i cant test it but from what i recall from 3ds i didnt even find its knockback to be that noteworthy. And regular tornado can do 20% on a punish so using anything else would have to mean its incredibly good, and its just not.

 

[Lavani]

I guess for the sake of completeness I'll touch on the other customs a bit.

Entangling Tornado (neutralB 2) I feel may have been the tornado @ Amazing Ampharos meant to refer to. It only does one 9% hit, but it KOs Sheik on FD at 135% without rage and 80% with rage, from the ground. I can't think of a scenario or matchup where Shuttle Loop or Dimensional Cape couldn't just get the job done without having to sacrifice default tornado, though.

Blade Coaster (upB 2) has none of the combo potential of the default, does less damage than the default, whiffs its second hit more often than the default, and is worse for recovery than the default. Maybe there are some oddball cases where its horizontal movement is useful as a punish, but I can't imagine anyone actually wanting to use this.

Lazy Shuttle Loop (upB 3) removes the first hit, adds startup before the second hit, and doesn't have any upside to compensate that I can see. So no combos, no OoS punishes, deals less damage, your recovery becomes more punishable, for absolutely nothing in return. Utter trash.

Stealth Smasher (downB 3) removes the teleport's intangibility and invisibility and lengthens the teleport time, in exchange for making the attack do 1% more and KO earlier (Mario dies from center of FD at a bit under 90% without rage, mid 60%s with). The attack is really strong but I don't see how you're ever realistically going to land it, especially considering the opponent knows where you are and can even hit you during the entire teleport.

In summary I don't think we're going to find use for any sets beyond 1311 and 1211.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

No, neutral 3 is the powerful one. Test neutral-3 kill percents; they're ridiculous. It's odd because the move is pretty weak at not kill percent, but kill percent starts early.

 

[Lavani]

Oh.

I think I probably left the CPU set to random when I was testing that initially and ended up checking percents against a defense-boosted bot or something.

Okay so neutralB 3 KOs Sheik from middle of FD at 120%. It still KOs 10+% later than Dimensional Cape/Shuttle loop though. I don't think my opinion's really changed.

 

[DiggersBoy]

I'm really sorry, I should've posted on here. My bad, but I didn't feel like I had a good answer to this topic. However, I think I should probably post here so people can know my train of thought.

I'm not that big of a fan towards customs moves. I mean, sure they're great and all, but I've never had much use for them. I just manage to find ways to use the current moveset I was given with. And example of this would be me with Palutena. Even though she has much better movesets from her customs, I learned how to play with her using that given moveset. Granted, I dropped her in the end due to various reasons (One reason was me feeling like I was playing a slow character), but it's the thought that counts. Part of me not using customs is to be flexible in tourneys, and part of it is because I'm way too lazy to grind out all of the customs.

Now, about Meta Knight, even with custom moves on, I still feel like 1111 is the best option. His kit is very balanced at the moment, and using other customs would upset the balance that he already has. Plus, we do great with 1111 anyway.

Sorry we (mainly myself) aren't much of a help in this situation. It's just... We really do feel like 1111 is one of, if not the best MK moveset. Maybe 1211 and 1311 is good, like Lavani and ItoI said, but I don't feel it. I'm already having a hard time mastering MK as it is, much less testing multitudes of custom moves, XD

 

[ndayday]

I gotta agree so far with everyone else for the most part. dimensional cape customs are just...lacking, especially when 1 is already so good. the shuttle loops 2 and 3 are absolutely terrible, I don't get why you would even want to try lazy shuttle loop, but coaster is at least...neat? with so many punishes and combos not to mention kills already riding on shuttle loop 1 it doesn't make sense to use it though imo

entangling tornado just seemed bad but dreadful is actually decent. you are removing a huge way to gain damage but I don't think MK is that bad at getting in damage that you absolutely need tornado 1. you are trading a tornado that gets 20+% and kills at late 100s (although god help you if you need to kill with tornado) for a tornado that kills much earlier, making it a realistic kill move. I really kind of think of it as a dimensional cape with much less range.

I can definitely see the argument of "why bother with it when dimensional cape and shuttle loop can get the job done" but I still think
it adds a viable kill option and so can't be tossed aside as easily as lazy shuttle loop or something. it may not be ideal but I think it's at the least an option.

and actually I think the shield eating drill rush is just bad, I mean ok, I just won't shield the same way I won't run up to marth and shield, or how I drop my shield and take the hit if I see I'm going to get whopped by it.

3111 is the only one I would use atm, but that's because I haven't had a chance to unlock the quick (?) drill rush variant. I would want to see if it has the same ability to stage spike, ignore weak projectiles, create a gtfo shockwave when breaking it near the ledge, and bounce the same off stage sides/bottoms (like how you can recover quite low into the side of BF, break drill rush and have MK pop onto the ledge) so if anyone can share that'd be awesome.

 

[DunnoBro]

After testing, entangling seems to be the best neutral. No horizontal movement but it's great for finishing juggles as it lasts longer than air dodges, drags them in if they didn't/couldn't jump away, and still kills absurdly early. Like, around 120 mid-stage with no rage. Generally you'll be hitting with it much higher, though.

Coaster shuttle is interesting, possibly better against other multi-jumpers who you can't really pressure with default. The speed of this one and the low speed of multi-jumpers will let coaster punish them more often.

Furthermore, it has combos from throws if you short and full hop into it. Though only at lower percents, and inward to stage otherwise you'll cide while going for it. Overall it's definitely inferior, but against floatier characters and on smashville/town and city where there are more safe places to use it with the off-stage platforms, where it will kill earlier, it could also have use.

Drill2 is nice for setting people up for edgeguards and juggles, at least. Decent long-range punish to make them feel threatened to approach.

Default cape is best imo. So fast, strong, and versatile...

2211 is what I would generally use, then try 2221 against characters like jiggly and kirby so I can threaten them out of my airspace more readily with coaster. Though I'm not convinced it's legit yet.

 

[W.A.C.]

God I ****ing hate how unlocking these custom moves is such a random grindfest. After like, oh, I don't know, six hours? I finally ****ing got Shieldbreaker Drill which looks like Meta Knight's only custom move worth using. I was so excited, but I was playing on classic mode at 8.0 difficulty. After I beat the boss, Master Fortress appeared and my sigh of relief went to, "oh ****". I ended up dying and since I know this game doesn't bother to save all your unlocked goodies like the 3Ds version if you select "continue", I said no...and lost it along with a bunch of other good stuff. I really have no idea why they made the custom moves such a ridiculous grindfest. If they were going to go this route, I shouldn't have to unlock all eight separately. It should've either unlocked all the #2 and #3 customs in seperate unlockable packs or say, I dunno, give me both side special customs at once. :/

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm getting a sense that including sets to make every MK main happy won't be too hard with a whole 10 slots to work with. I had to make up stuff no one asked for before even to include six...

If you want to unlock MK's customs ASAP, just play All Star on Hard with Meta Knight. If you want all of the customs in the game other modes are worth considering, but if you just want MK's stuff so you can lab it up, All Star on Hard will be a pretty efficient method.

 

[W.A.C.]

[LINK]

So it turns out not all of Meta Knight's up special custom moves are bad alternatives.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

[LINK]

So it turns out not all of Meta Knight's up special custom moves are bad alternatives.

In response to the article, I'd just say that while that's a nifty little trick it's hardly gamebreaking for MK to have a character-percent dependent self-suiciding combo that works near ledges...

This doees suggest that Blade Coaster probably deserves some more exploration, might be a nice option for MK.

 

[W.A.C.]

I experimented with some of Meta Knight's customs at a tournament yesterday and the only one I prefer over his standard moveset is the Shieldbreaker Drill. A lot of scenarios that would've resulted in me being punished ended up forcing my opponent to let their shield get to a really low level or force them to stop shielding. The fact it doesn't go as far also makes it less risky on stages since you cannot grab a ledge afterwords unless you get that final hit. So ****ing stupid his drill is designed that way in this game. It made it a way riskier move than it should be.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

^i want breaker drill to be viable just so i can call it giga drill breaker.

 

[Galactic Knight]

God I ****ing hate how unlocking these custom moves is such a random grindfest. After like, oh, I don't know, six hours? I finally ****ing got Shieldbreaker Drill which looks like Meta Knight's only custom move worth using. I was so excited, but I was playing on classic mode at 8.0 difficulty. After I beat the boss, Master Fortress appeared and my sigh of relief went to, "oh ****". I ended up dying and since I know this game doesn't bother to save all your unlocked goodies like the 3Ds version if you select "continue", I said no...and lost it along with a bunch of other good stuff. I really have no idea why they made the custom moves such a ridiculous grindfest. If they were going to go this route, I shouldn't have to unlock all eight separately. It should've either unlocked all the #2 and #3 customs in seperate unlockable packs or say, I dunno, give me both side special customs at once. :/

I managed to unlock two of Meta Knight's custom moves consecutively in Trophy Rush. I assumed that you unlocked the moves by going on Trophy Rush with the character you wished to unlock custom moves for. After failing to get any other Meta Knight moves after that, I'm sad to say I was lucky initially, just not lucky enough to avoid the grindfest altogether for my main. It's a shame there aren't specific unlock routes, since there's multiple to unlock the characters but none for the moves. Why is that?

 

[SleuthMechanism]

^I have no idea but it's really bad design IMO. especialy since for some idiotic reason you can get a move you already unlocked again. That said fastest way to unlock customs is to do the home button roulette stop trick on classic mode with your desired character on the 3DS version if you have it. on wii u only unfortunately your stuck with the unreliable trophy rush and the rather random crazy orders which both seem to take forever

 

[DelxDoom]

right now, the 1311 and 1211 seem like good picks.

however, i do want a set with the forward moving up B, as i believe it combos after short hop dair.

 

[DiggersBoy]

Noooo I beg to differ on that tornado customs now that I've been experimenting

Entangling Tornado is soooo good like pls

Its a frame trap rising kill move that kills around 100 near the ground use it in the air as a mixup and they'll fall right into it after trying to air dodge the UpB dying at like 50 % pls

 

[AmishTechnology]

Noooo I beg to differ on that tornado customs now that I've been experimenting

Entangling Tornado is soooo good like pls

Its a frame trap rising kill move that kills around 100 near the ground use it in the air as a mixup and they'll fall right into it after trying to air dodge the UpB dying at like 50 % pls

lol Jesus is the knockback really that high to kill in the air so early? And it pulls them in too, right? Man, that could just be what MK needs to punish airdodges more consistently and more punitively.

right now, the 1311 and 1211 seem like good picks.

however, i do want a set with the forward moving up B, as i believe it combos after short hop dair.

If it's easier to combo into at later percents than Shuttle Loop and it still kills, it may be worth using against characters like Bowser and Captain Falcon. They're very hard to kill off the top due to their heaviness or fast fall speed, but edge guarding them is much easier in comparison. Coaster pushes them off the stage rather than above it. We can use normal Drill and DCape to compensate for the lost recovery since they also have a tough time edge guarding us.

 

[DiggersBoy]

lol Jesus is the knockback really that high to kill in the air so early? And it pulls them in too, right? Man, that could just be what MK needs to punish airdodges more consistently and more punitively.

I'm probably over exaggerating but I really like it as an optional kill move compared to UpB. However, the side effects are that it only hits once, only flies upward, and is hard to predict with it. But, the rewards for it are amazing.

 

[DelxDoom]

sooo

1311
1211
2x11 - powerful tornado
1121 - horizontal up B - for heavier characters w/ worse recoveries

 

[DiggersBoy]

Quick Drill is super good because it is lightning fast horizontal recovery and has very little lag compared to everything else I'd be surprised if it wasn't one of MK's best specials

 

[DelxDoom]

yeah, that's covered by 1211.

1121 needs the default drill for its vertical recovery.

so the sets we're lookin at are
1311 (shield breaker drill)
1211 (quick drill)
2211 (KOing tornado, quick drill)
2311 (KOing tornado, shield breaker drill)
1121 (horizontal up B, with default recovery options)
2121 (KOing tornado, horizontal upB, with default recovery options)

yes? look good everyone? lol

 

[Rehnquist]

Shield piercer cape recovers at about the same horizontal/vertical distance as the default shuttle loop. So if running blade coaster and you want freedom in drills and you don't use dimensional cape too often, its a good substitute. This pretty much negates the move to a solid recovery option but it has intangibility and speed.

I say this because the default drill if overused as a recovery can become a liability should the opponent try to edgeguard. Its rather slow and MK is exposed on his sides when using this recovery.

 

[DelxDoom]

so do you think shield piercer cape is better than dimensional cape for recovery?

 

[Rehnquist]

so do you think shield piercer cape is better than dimensional cape for recovery?

Easily, it has the same range as shuttle loop, the only edge dimensional cape has over shield piercer in the recovery department is a bit more horizontal recovery (which it slightly beats shuttle loop on that front too), and any of the drills can match or beat the horizontal movement so the horizontal movement isn't as critical.

 

[DelxDoom]

ok so assuming tornado2 is a good KO option over dimensional cape we can replace dim.cape with shield piercer for the increased recovery.

so the sets we're lookin at are
1311 (shield breaker drill)
1211 (quick drill)
2212 (KOing tornado, quick drill, shield piercer cape for recovery)
2312 (KOing tornado, shield breaker drill, shield piercer cape for recovery)
1122 (horizontal up B, with side/down for reocvery)
2122 (KOing tornado, horizontal upB, with side/down for reocvery)

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

If we're filling all 10 slots for EVO, I feel like there should be at least 1 Stealth Smasher set. It's niche and not that popular, but may as well have a well-rounded set to please as many as possible.

 

[Rehnquist]

ok so assuming tornado2 is a good KO option over dimensional cape we can replace dim.cape with shield piercer for the increased recovery.

so the sets we're lookin at are
1311 (shield breaker drill)
1211 (quick drill)
2212 (KOing tornado, quick drill, shield piercer cape for recovery)
2312 (KOing tornado, shield breaker drill, shield piercer cape for recovery)
1122 (horizontal up B, with side/down for reocvery)
2122 (KOing tornado, horizontal upB, with side/down for reocvery)

I like your list as I can see the purpose of the move synergy (shieldbreaker paired with dreadful and not entangling, etc), essentially your not pairing stuff just for the sake of it. I'm still hugely biased towards the defaults + drills, but I'll probably get familiar with these sets anyways.

 

[Rehnquist]

If we're filling all 10 slots for EVO, I feel like there should be at least 1 Stealth Smasher set. It's niche and not that popular, but may as well have a well-rounded set to please as many as possible.

If I am not mistaken we only fill in 8 slots (unless this has changed), and the last 2 slots are 2222, 3333, which should take care of stealth smasher by having one set with it. Since it does not mesh with anything that 3333 is fine and as a added benefit takes care of lazy shuttle loop too (is about as useful as stealth smasher), which the logic you applied to stealth smasher would also apply to this move.

 

[DelxDoom]

i actually think i made a mistake. after reading this thread over, both tornado2 and tornado3 are potential KO moves, however i'm not sure which one does what.

 

[Rehnquist]

i actually think i made a mistake. after reading this thread over, both tornado2 and tornado3 are potential KO moves, however i'm not sure which one does what.

Entangling (2) sucks the opponents towards you and is a single hit that shoots the opponent upwards, what was talked in this thread is instead of using Uair chains into traditional shuttle loop to hit them into the top blast zone using entangling to kill them. I have yet to really experiment with this move, this is just going off what others have done.

The other move is dreadful (3) a shorter more powerful tornado, it can kill from the ground or ledge at around 100% (+/-20). It is multi hit but cannot sustain as long of a lingering hitbox as the other two.

So going back to my earlier comment, which I complimented that at least entangling didn't get paired with shieldbreaker, was due to the fact that shieldbreaker does better with the multi hit tornados rather than the single hit. Also entangling wouldn't really be used on the ground and shieldbreaker wouldn't really ever be used near the top blast zone.

 

[DelxDoom]

looks like i did pair entangling with shield breaker. i'll have to adjust it then.

1311 - shield breaker drill
1211 - quick drill (horizontal recovery)
2211 - entangling tornado, quick drill (horizontal recovery)
3311 - break shields with SideB, KO with dreadful tornado.
2122 - entangling tornado for potential KO off the top. blade coaster for horizontal combos. shield piercer cape for recovery.
3322 - dreadful tornado, shield breaker drill combo. blade coaster for horizontal combos, with shield piercer cape for recovery.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
Meta Knight:

1/2, 1/2/3, 1, 1 niche: 3XXX, XX2X, XXX2

1211, 1311, 2111, 2211, 2311
niche: 1121, 2121, 1112, 1212, 3111

So here is what I'm gathering...

Entangling Tornado is a legitimately good move and the drill choice is preference. That makes the top 5 sets clear choices to include. The rest is... kinda a toss-up. I was including moves that seemed to make sense but I don't feel like we're at the point where the decision there is clear yet. Please let us know what you guys want done with Meta Knight's space as we approach the finishing stretch.

 

[DelxDoom]

blade coaster is way worse than i initially thought.

1211, 1311, 2111, 2211, 2311
niche: 1121, 2121, 1112, 1212, 3111

is fine, though i think there should be a 3311 over one of the blade coaster sets. (shield breaker drill and dreadful tornado for a possible KO if a shield is broken)