Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Meta Knight

[Rehnquist]

blade coaster is way worse than i initially thought.

1211, 1311, 2111, 2211, 2311
niche: 1121, 2121, 1112, 1212, 3111

is fine, though i think there should be a 3311 over one of the blade coaster sets. (shield breaker drill and dreadful tornado for a possible KO if a shield is broken)

I also want to point out that rarely will shield breaker drill actually break a shield, any opponent can drop shield and just take the 3-5% damage (if not just change shielding behavior altogether), it will just leave it small enough to where a multi hit nado can poke someone out of shield. Dreadful nado gets most of its use on spot/aerial dodges. Shield breaker's best synergy comes from default nado, but I've worked it with Dreadful with success as well. And if a shield does break, you'd use F-Smash as its MK's strongest move on the ground.

Blade Coaster is still being experimented with, the youtube video showed it where it can used as a suicide move. Regardless, I find it suicidal to use Blade Coaster without shield piercer. Blade Coaster removes one of your options to kill off the top blast zone in exchange for horizontal knock back, but it also limits your ability to intercept those who recovery low or to recover low yourself. This is negated with Shield piercer, which at least allows you to still go down and back up without having to recovery in painful vertical arcs that drills provide. So XX22 should not be separated in my opinion.

Without putting any fillers in, my sets would be
Popular: 1X11
Requested: X111
Niche: 2222, 3311, 2X11

Which I'm short 2 spaces.

 

[DelxDoom]

i also looked into the shield piercer recovery, and didn't see it be any better than usual.

 

[Rehnquist]

i also looked into the shield piercer recovery, and didn't see it be any better than usual.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf5mlbjw-V8#t=2m02s

I don't know what to tell you, test it again. It can reach the same vertically height as shuttle loop, something which dim cape can't.

 

[DelxDoom]

oh, the vertical. i see.

still, i will probably be using 2311. although i dunno how interested i am in MK customs now that i know how bad blade coaster is

 

[Rehnquist]

oh, the vertical. i see.

still, i will probably be using 2311. although i dunno how interested i am in MK customs now that i know how bad blade coaster is

I think its nearly unanimous that MK's default set is best for the vast majority of cases, this has been known for a while. He's not a kirby or a DK when it comes to customs. Blade Coaster was always thought to be trash as well, it was just a video that came up that gave some hope for some utility in Blade Coaster, which got a few saying that it should get another look.

MK's customs really breaks down like this, remember all of these come at the cost of the lost of the default move / combos.

Spot/Air Dodge Punish? Dreadful Tornado
Another Option for Top Blastzone kill? Entangling Tornado

More Aggressive/Setup Drill? Shield Breaker Drill
Chasing Down Zoning Characters? High Speed Drill

More Recovery / Neutral Reset? Shield Piercer Cape

And that is about it to my knowledge, so you'd only make the exchange if you didn't get anything from the other moves prior and or wanted another function.

 

[DelxDoom]

the big thing was i didn't know blade coaster had increased startup :x

1311
1211
2311
2211
2111

i guess lol

 

[AmishTechnology]

I think its nearly unanimous that MK's default set is best for the vast majority of cases, this has been known for a while. He's not a kirby or a DK when it comes to customs. Blade Coaster was always thought to be trash as well, it was just a video that came up that gave some hope for some utility in Blade Coaster, which got a few saying that it should get another look.

MK's customs really breaks down like this, remember all of these come at the cost of the lost of the default move / combos.

Spot/Air Dodge Punish? Dreadful Tornado
Another Option for Top Blastzone kill? Entangling Tornado

More Aggressive/Setup Drill? Shield Breaker Drill
Chasing Down Zoning Characters? High Speed Drill

More Recovery / Neutral Reset? Shield Piercer Cape

And that is about it to my knowledge, so you'd only make the exchange if you didn't get anything from the other moves prior and or wanted another function.

The gains from HSD far outweight the default drill against nearly all the matchups. It gives him a great option against projectile spam, Diddy bananas and monkey flip, braindead Sanic spins (he can still shield them, but he will play much more cautious), punishing bad landings and whiffs far away where they are otherwise unreachable (kind of like Charizard flare blitz), etc. As more people learn that default drill is a SPIKE, less people will contest it unsafely and it will net us less surprise kills in the future. HSD will always be useful.

If what I've heard about Shield Piercer having less lag or more recovery or whatever are true, this will become standard too. Against GOOD players, you almost never use the D-Cape attack, so might as well use the cape with the best "secondary" utilitarian purposes. Plus, the fact that it hits through shields could be really neat when you want to punish a whiff or something far away and literally their only option is to shield.

I think 1212 will be the preferred Meta Knight standard in the future if the cape is superior in the recovery/neutral department, otherwise it's gonna be 1211 with Entangling Tornado subbed in for preference. So... 1212, 1211, 2212, 2211.

Man, all this custom talk makes me want to find some people and experiment. I ganon-farmed my way to get all the MK customs, haha.

 

[Rehnquist]

I'm not discounting HSD, I use it myself against my projectile spamming friends, and punishing distant landings is awesome, but when we are talking about using HSD as a punish, the damage is in the 3-6% range, and HSD is being used instead of dash shield and jumps with the freedom of any attack setup we want, both have their pros and cons in this utility though, HSD gets you there safer but more options are open with the later though, which is why I do use it on sets. My main point here is that since the functionality of HSD is different than default the comparison should be with what function is it taking over.

The biggest issue is running HSD with the default tornado. The other nados either don't have directional input or don't require button mashing, which can prevent embarrassing SDs, not too common but that's a big dice to roll which can be triggered by a weak projectile, I'm much more aware of this due to my projectile spamming friends, this becomes even more of an issue in doubles. Any set I do run HSD, I don't run with the default nado for that purpose. I have been working on weening myself off of default nado but my like for it keeps HSD in lesser use, I just really need to make the leap and go with it, but I will point out that if changing one moves encourages change in another, that's something to consider too.

I also wouldn't under count stage spiking though, not all recoveries are able to avoid it even with knowledge of it, for those with fast small/no hitbox recoveries it works really well, also fearing the spike is powerful in and of itself.


This isn't absolutely terrible but in the 2212 set, SP and SL share low horizontal and high vertical distance, meaning the entirety of your jumps must either contribute to sufficient horizontal or vertical distance, where you are now forced into either SL or HSD, which changes MK's recovery trajectory to that of a + sign, where as with the default drill the space in between SL / HSD could of normally been covered by the default. So comparison here is a large + sign or a smaller triangle for acceptable recovery moves/positions offstage.

Bias in familiarity is real, which is why I'm switching things up, most of my hesitancy is most likely just uncertainty with the customs as I have yet to go toe to toe with them in a tourney setting.

 

[Lavani]

So, I haven't posted in this thread in awhile, and I see there's been quite a bit of recent discussion. Realistically, I don't see many MKs using sets other than 1111 or 1211, so I guess other sets are free for experimentation.

I don't really have anything to say about the Tornado customs, I would much rather have the variable duration, higher damage, and potential shield safety of Mach Tornado over the kill power of the other two.

All drills are usable, Shieldbreaker Drill is the worst of the three due to lesser speed (worse for recovery, tougher to approach an opponent with) and the opponent being able to drop shield before a possible break, getting off with only 1~3% taken. HSD is weaker but better for breaking through projectiles, and a "better" recovery in terms of speed and distance, though it lacks the flexibility of being able to angle the default (also means you can't mix up bouncing off the ground or not). HSD should see use against characters with weak projectiles and is generally likely the better drill overall, default is a preference thing, Shieldbreaker I don't think is really ever worth using over the other two but it isn't terrible.

Lazy Shuttle Loop is absolute garbage. Blade Coaster is slower than Shuttle Loop, and I see no reason to trade fraudulent kills off the top + a good OoS option + an amazing combo tool for fraudulent kills off the side that we die after and a worse OoS option with significantly worse combos. However, it may have niche use with its horizontal disjoint; Shuttle Loop has a lot of disjoint, Blade Coaster tilts that disjoint horizontally while moving forward, and I get the feeling it may be good at beating out things such as Spin Dash. I don't think anything would be lost if we just ran Shuttle Loop for every set, but maybe there's a reason to use Blade Coaster?

The vertical recovery increase on Shield Piercer is a nice find; I'm still a little iffy on the move because of its increased startup and pitiful attack, but if you don't mind those aspects it's a nice recovery option. Stealth Smasher's lack of invisibility and intangibility plus massive commit time keep me from seeing it as ever being useful. I feel like the intent was to use it to position while edgeguarding or something and deliver a powerful killing blow, but it has Warlock Punch tier startup (and even worse end lag); I don't see anyone ever getting hit by it.

In summary:
1211, 1212, 1112 should be mandatory. Variations with Entangling Torando, Dreadful Tornado, and probably Shieldbreaker Drill seem like the moves that should round out the other 7 sets; I'd leave it up to people that use those moves, I don't use or like the Tornado customs and lost faith in Shieldbreaker Drill awhile ago. If adding a Blade Coaster set, it should be xx22 to compensate the loss of Shuttle Loop's vertical recovery.

 

[DelxDoom]

i barely use mach tornado because of how it loses to a lot of stuff ( i play vs diddy a lot) so having it as a KO option instead for airdodge traps is probably better for how i play.

shieldbreaker drill is probably not that useful but i can see it being alright on platforms.

 

[warionumbah2]

That's the thing about us MK users we all play different.

Katakiri uses Nado the most out of all of us and most effectively.

DelxDoom doesn't use it at all.

Others may us it to punish airdodges.

Some crafty users fall on people with nado as a mix up.

A few(me) use it out of DA which is guaranteed on most of the cast at low percents usually below 40%(still exploring who it works on i only got ).

And the most noticeable way of using it is by covering more than one ledge get up option.

Those who don't use nado much shouldn't fear SDing on accident with HSD, but getting rid of nado is basically taking a big hit on MK's damage output which is already low(for his normals that is) and against Falcon you'll need to rack up damage as fast as possible so you can end him off stage.

Nado is MKs best shield poke tool against tall characters like Rosalina. HSD is too good to ignore in the custom environment especially when some characters end up beating us because they get buffed more than MK(+ Samurai bias).

Only time i won't use 1211 is on small stages anything outside of SV.Castle Seige,TnC and FD i will go default we still get people who edgeguard MK like morons giving us an opening for a stage spike but as said above later in the meta more people will be aware of MKs strengths and in the long term HSD seems like the better option but that's only when people actually know what MK can do to their character if they attempt an edgeguard.

 

[W.A.C.]

The only custom move setup I like so far is 1311. I really wonder if Blade Coaster is worth experimenting with. It seems like it has a lot of potential, but it's overall much worse than his standard up special Shuttle Loop, which is probably his best kill move in the game.

 

[ItoI6]

trading anything for shuttle loop is a really bad idea shuttle loop is one of the best moves in the game when it actually works correctly

default tornado is also very strong and i think if youre trying to trade it away you just arent using it to its full potential.

shield breaker drill is fraudulent but drill rush and high speed drill are both ok moves.

every cape is kinda bad but default is probably the best.

 

[W.A.C.]

One of the reasons why I like using Shield Breaker Drill is because I find it a lot more safe than his other drills. There's a lot of scenarios where with the regular drill, they just shield and I get punished hardcore. Plus you can't grab onto the ledge unless you get that last hit in, so that can make the move very risky. The additional shield pressure is nice too, since it can put my opponent into really bad situations. The less distance it goes also makes me less worried about SDing off a ledge. I personally can't stand using high speed drill because I can't angle it or grab onto a ledge if I fail to get that last hit in. It find it ridiculously easy to SD with that move, which is irritating. I really don't understand why they made a lot of Meta Knight's free fall states not allow him to grab onto a ledge afterwords. Considering how he's so air based, he shouldn't be a character that's so easy to SD with.

 

[DelxDoom]

quick drill is mostly used to break/go through/punish projectiles, not really recover but it can be used to recover.

default tornado is better than entangling in more situations but entangling DOES offer an alternative air trap KO option at high altitudes which is still a very nice thing for MK to have if you stale shuttle loop from combos.

 

[warionumbah2]

quick drill is mostly used to break/go through/punish projectiles, not really recover but it can be used to recover.

not really recover but it can be used to recover. -why not just say its used to recover? lol

It can be used to send people near the ledge during neutral, the move comes out fast enough for them not to react sometimes the ledge is a great place for MK he can bully them by covering their options.

Alot of MUs beg for you to use this unlike shieldbreaker which is outright horrible. I'd rather go for a custom that tips MU in our favor than the other one where it doesn't do what the name states. :/

Getting rid of nado still baffles me, it gives so much to MK unlike that custom nado that has 1 real pro .

 

[V23]

I wanted to post this here (as i posted this in the general talk thread but doesn't belong there) feel like we could talk about it more here.

Ok, i think im falling in love with blade coaster. i've been at it for a while, and i think it changes Mk's game. not for better or for worse just changes it. like you need to develope a new mindset. this is freaking awesome. im kinda shocked. after 3 stocking a (very good) fox with coaster stage spikes. im a believer

here is a quick gif i made just to show what i mean (though im sure you all know by now) this is so much fun to use, and easy.

Spoiler

And also made this, to show how much ground you can cover in a heartbeat with this, how easy you can punish from a distance

Spoiler

 

[warionumbah2]

That punish you did on diddy isn't that good, it did a pathetic amount of damage lower than HSD. Shuttle loop is too good to get rid of, it finishes combos with good damage, has many hit confirms to set it up, oos option and the disjoint part is most likely to hit unlike that custom since MK is going straight up with the sword above and infront of him.

Shuttle loop and tornado are too good to get rid of, they have more pros than cons compared to the others.

 

[V23]

That punish you did on diddy isn't that good, it did a pathetic amount of damage lower than HSD. Shuttle loop is too good to get rid of, it finishes combos with good damage, has many hit confirms to set it up, oos option and the disjoint part is most likely to hit unlike that custom since MK is going straight up with the sword above and infront of him.

Shuttle loop and tornado are too good to get rid of, they have more pros than cons compared to the others.

not saying SL is bad (the opp, its the best move ever) but coaster has interesting conept to it, im reserching on coaster hit confirms (i think Fair connects with truecombo, need to varify dat)

 

[DelxDoom]

i don't think tornado is "too good to get rid of", its unique use is air to ground when opponent is bad at shielding or has low shields. everything else has an answer.
nado's other advantage is that it can stack on 20+ damage, but combos into shuttle are still going to do decent amounts.

ground to ground -> bait spotdodge or roll or stay in shield, grab, combo into shuttle
anti air -> first of all tornado loses to a lot of aerials even in this situation, but yeah. uair-> up B, utilt, a lot of things work as AA.
anti air airdodge bait -> can punish with literally anything, not just nado.

whenever opponent has a full shield tornado shouldn't be used, as it SHOULD be punished virtually every time. the exception would be vs characters that can't chase a retreating nado for the punish, which should be looked into.

when you are converting every uair, dash attack, and grab into a shuttle for extra 6-13%, you are going to rack up damage somewhat reliably while staling shuttle making it less effective to KO. entangling tornado is going to be useful when that happens. you drop mach tornado which is better in neutral but i think that can be sacrificed. dash attack and grab are excellent tools. air to ground isn't that good in this game especially with nerfed dair, so tornado is more telegraphed.

of course, matchups are still important. entangling KOs on heavies may be much later than optimal, so mach tornado damage racking capabilities would be preferred so that dairs/etc. set up offstage play more reliably. i do think entangling will be relevant for stuff like diddy and sheik, as they can play around mach comfortably.

 

[warionumbah2]

Dash attack into nado works on Sheik below 50%, an easy setup for a 23% move against a character with poor damage? I'll take it, when i take a stock all i need is a DA to rack up damage softening her/him up before i lose my stock.

When someone is shielding nado you should toughen it out and eat their shield, tall characters especially drifting away with nado is safe on characters with poor mobility.

default tornado is also very strong and i think if youre trying to trade it away you just arent using it to its full potential.

Entangling tornado doesn't have any hit confirms into it unlike shuttle loop and even dimensional cape, shuttle loop combos at low percents can be punished hard by fast fallers so relying on this alone to rack up damage isn't reliable. Nado can be combo'd into on certain characters(mostly high tiers) and requires less input and focus outside of mashing(its braindead as hell).

 

[V23]

After alot of time with the customs and alot of intese games. im VERY sad to say that indeed 1-1-1-1 is the best. while i stand behind my statement that coaster changes meta's game. the cange is somewhat luckluster and not as intuitive as one would think.

so next time ill want stage spikes? ill just use drill. it works. ):

 

[DunnoBro]

Blade coaster is very good on certain stages. Can kill early and combo all over the place without dying. Smashville, T&C, Delfino, And Castle Siege... Seems decent on Duck Hunt too. Could be good for a CP set.

Entangling is also pretty good, it's a superb air dodge punish, much better than default since it kills. I feel it compliments the shuttle loop combos/frame traps very nicely (especially against high airspeed chars)

And high-speed drill is a nice punish that gets them in the air/offstage, sort of like a long-range dash attack with a less preferable trajectory.

Also when short-hopped he doesn't do the jump anim and just lands (same for when used on an on-stage enemy while recovering), making it better for follow-ups.

I personally use 2211, unless it's a matchup default tornado really helps in. And then 2221 when I want to abuse some jank on certain stages with coaster.

 

[W.A.C.]

Blade coaster is very good on certain stages. Can kill early and combo all over the place without dying. Smashville, T&C, Delfino, And Castle Siege... Seems decent on Duck Hunt too. Could be good for a CP set.

...Wow. As much as I ****ing hate Castle Siege, Blade Coaster might be worth using on stages with walk off sections. That recovery move seems that like a significant downgrade on a non-walk-off stage though. I need to test that out.

 

[DunnoBro]

...Wow. As much as I ****ing hate Castle Siege, Blade Coaster might be worth using on stages with walk off sections. That recovery move seems that like a significant downgrade on a non-walk-off stage though. I need to test that out.

No yea, default is way better on starters (T&C included... that middle platform is magic) Except maybe smashville, you need to keep awareness of it but it does enable really cheesy stuff. It pretty much makes the platform a huge "no-zone" when not above the stage for the opponent.

But it's super cheesy on walkoffs. Delfino is overall better for MK though, and has more walkoffs/pseudo-walkoffs like the water sections.

Also probably better on Kongo since it's so hard for MK to kill there... And it's a nice big stage with good platform placement for it. Wouldn't rely on the barrel much for help though.

Always strike FD imo, such a stale stage for MK.

 

[DelxDoom]

im thinking entangling on FD is better than mach. no platforms to mach them on...?

 

[DunnoBro]

Entangling is mostly only good for upward strings/punishing air dodges, those happen less without platforms. But default has issues being used on FD too... So maybe. MK definitely not as good on fd though.

 

[AmishTechnology]

I always ban FD unless it's MK dittos lol.

 

[W.A.C.]

I always ban Castle Siege, because **** that stage. Though I might actually pick that stage using Meta Knight at a tournament with Blade Coaster to see if that move is worth using at all. I actually like FD with Meta Knight on Final Destination. He may thrive with platforms, but he doesn't need platforms. I also have a massive fondness for omega stages, so that too.

 

[warionumbah2]

I always ban Castle Siege, because **** that stage.

Its the best stage against and in theory .

2nd stage transformation is made for camping man. MK needs platforms against top tiers (), also lower ceilings against anyone that isn't . FD is by far his worse stage.
----------------------------------
Edit: When i got home i tested HSD on Villagers counter timber, it seems like this move won't do **** to MK since during the HSD animation MK is above the ground.

Not only does CT not effect MK but all his zone tools lose to HSD alone. Fair,Bair and Lyod Rocket lose to HSD(default gets destroyed, MK literally goes through the giant lyode rocket) the MU would be even worse if it wasn't for Villagers explosive balloons. Yet another reason why HSD is so good.

This is probably Villagers most polarizing MU in the custom meta. He can't camp behind the plant because MK can punish with HSD, he can't zone MK(even without customs he can't really do much to keep MK out) only merit is that his recovery isn't exploitable and his balloons go through the stage.

 

[DelxDoom]

customs megaman doesnt mind castle

ill keep in mind the hsd vs villager mu. i have some villagers to worry about

 

[warionumbah2]

Another lab result, HSD beats MMs Shadow Blade and because MM doesn't move until the blade comes back we basically have a large window to punish him.

The same applies to his lemons, a good MM will jump before the 3rd pill to avoid end lag so no matter what we can punish them. The moment he fires one lemon we can HSD him, if doesn't jumps he'll get end lag so you can bet your left nut that he'll jump.

Don't know about Danger Wrap haven't unlocked it, but tbh the trajectory of that move makes it so that MK won't get hit so long as he's grounded.

HSD helps with all MUs in some way, all except mainly cuz they chase us off stage so default drill is better to have and pk fire stopping HSD dead in its tracks.

 

[DunnoBro]

Honestly, after testing more in-depth, while blade coaster becomes quite usable on certain stages, it's the same stages with absurdly low ceilings, thus default is still about as or likely better with.

Entangling tornado however, is very threatening. The best air dodge and AoE punish. It doesn't kill very well from base, but due to the high set knockback, it kills very well in rage, and reliably well around 60-80+ without. It also frame traps landing on platforms due to the lingering hitbox.

I believe 2211 should definitely be in the final 10-slot list. HSD imo should be on every list... It's a great punish and frame trap.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

So i've been testing speed drill lately and completely love it now. it goes so fast that it's difficult to punish on reaction, shuts down most projectiles, and essentially turns most dash attack attempts into a free punish. when combined with dimensional cape essentially being a ranged counter nothing an opponent tries to do at sufficient range is safe. 1211 should definitely be up there since to me it seems like a straight up buff to 1111 in most cases. 1221 also seems like it should be there too as a more niche option for people that like blade coaster. I haven't unlocked entangling tornado so i can't say much about it yet but dreadful tornado is well... just plain dreadful. XD; can't see any possible use for that one.

 

[W.A.C.]

I absolutely cannot stand 1211. Meta Knight is already a character that's stupidly easy to SD with because a lot of his free fall states won't allow him to grab onto a ledge and I cannot use that custom move against CPU's without SDing constantly. While I prefer using 1311 over his standard drill, I can't help but feel all of his custom moves suck in this game. I feel Meta Knight is a mid tier without custom moves, but with them, he's most likely a low tier character. Nearly every low tier character benefits enormously from custom moves except him. So damn irritating.

 

[meleebrawler]

I absolutely cannot stand 1211. Meta Knight is already a character that's stupidly easy to SD with because a lot of his free fall states won't allow him to grab onto a ledge and I cannot use that custom move against CPU's without SDing constantly. While I prefer using 1311 over his standard drill, I can't help but feel all of his custom moves suck in this game. I feel Meta Knight is a mid tier without custom moves, but with them, he's most likely a low tier character. Nearly every low tier character benefits enormously from custom moves except him. So damn irritating.

Well, gee, I'm sure a lot of Fox players in Melee have SDed with Fox Illusion AT LEAST once, but
look where he is now... he's top tier, but NOT easy to just pick up and use like Diddy right now.

Also keep in mind customs don't necessarily exist to make a character better. They exist to give more options.

Edit: Want a current example? If Little Mac is low tier, it won't be in large part of Jolt Haymaker
SDs. Point is, character "faults" that are based on player error aren't real, and only affect those
who make those mistakes. If you can't deal with them, fine--but don't expect to shift opinions by talking
about it.

 

[W.A.C.]

I hate Fox Illusion in Melee. lol Thing is, that was Melee. Melee is a game where the standard is 4 stocks, recoveries were far less forgiving, and people die constantly. You SD at all in this game and it can ruin you in a match so bad. It's dumb they made it so easy to SD with MK in this game.

 

[warionumbah2]

Then stop SDing, HSD is indisputably the best custom to use in 97% of MUs. Not using this is putting yourself in a disadvantage, unless you're confident with Default MK going against Custom Rosalina be my guess.

Edit: Mid tier? Low tier? Gotta go into detail into that man. Like this is coming from someone who SDs alot with MK. kmt

 

[DelxDoom]

i don't think it is fair to claim that something is ineffective if you use it accidentally. everything can be ineffective if you use it accidentally.

 

[W.A.C.]

Then stop SDing, HSD is indisputably the best custom to use in 97% of MUs. Not using this is putting yourself in a disadvantage, unless you're confident with Default MK going against Custom Rosalina be my guess.

Well that's just lovely. I absolutely hate that move because you can't angle it and won't grab onto a ledge unless you get that last hit in. The latter applies to the other drills, but it's a far bigger issue with HSD because you can't angle it.

Edit: Mid tier? Low tier? Gotta go into detail into that man. Like this is coming from someone who SDs alot with MK. kmt

Meta Knight has a ton of disadvantages in this game largely because of poor range, much of his free fall states don't allow him to grab onto ledges, a lot of his moves have way less priority than they did in Brawl, and all of his special moves are very punishable if you screw up. But he excels in combos, in the air, and have some very good gimping options, which are some of his best qualities. If he had good range and all of his free fall states allowed him to grab onto the ledge, he would be a considerably better character. But with all of his issues and the fact his custom moves are underwhelming while many other lower tier characters get considerably better with custom moves, he's probably a low tier character with customs enabled. What sucks is the fact a lot of his free fall states don't allow him to grab onto the ledge significantly reduces his off stage potential and just makes a lot of moves way riskier than they should be.