Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Lucina

[Amazing Ampharos]

Welcome to the official Smashboards Standard Custom Set project. In brief, this project is designed to be a logistical solution to using custom movesets in tournaments by filling many of the in-game slots with the most popular and powerful sets for each character so they can be quickly selected without further 3ds import. This will allow tournaments with customizations on to save large amounts of time throughout the event. More details about the project's ideas and mission can be found here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

Our goal here is to find out what the most popular and powerful sets are for your particular character the best way we know how: asking you the mains of this character. To be clear, we're not talking about disallowing any particular custom sets or even imposing any rules in general; we're talking about making sure the popular and powerful options are simply accessible quickly in a tournament environment as our sole mission. We need up to three critical sets that represent the best options your character has that have wide general utility and from there to fill up to slot 6 with supplemental movesets that will cover less mainstream, more match-up specific, or even teams sets. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow all moves to be explored more easily in the new metagame, and slots 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import of non-standard sets.

Please list all movesets in the order NSUD, that is neutral special, side special, up special, and down special. This four digit code will be the naming convention so players can quickly and easily identify which moveset is which.

I know for many characters the default moveset, 1111, is a powerful and useful option. However, it should not be included; the game allows default to be picked regardless of what custom options are prepared so including it does not add any additional options to players.

I further know that some characters may find six slots a large number to fill. Others may find six very limiting. Do your best to pick out the overall six most likely to be picked even if some good stuff has to be left on the table or if some more experimental sets have to be included to fill out six. Every set included is time saved in tournament when that set would be picked, and we want to make the best use we can of these slots.

I would ask that everyone please be respectful of each other's opinions; this game is young, and the metagame is still very much forming so we are likely to each perceive it differently. This project will be revisited throughout the game's lifespan and revised to properly include the most mainstream movesets at the time. What we want for now is what will be commonly selected for now, and don't worry, other options are not being discriminated against as those last two slots are left open for 3ds transfer for a reason. This first version of this project will be refined throughout the rest of the year, but I hope to have a very rough draft up and usable by December 5 so TOs who wish to use the results of this project will have something to plug in for that weekend's worth of events. Thank you for your cooperation in this project, and we look forward to making sure the most useful options are quickly available for your character under this system.

On a specific note, I know that Marth and Lucina have more than a little overlap between their options and the merits of each. If you play both and have commentary relevant to both, please cross-post since it is definitely conceivable that the different normals on each would give you reason to prefer different specials.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Here's the standard custom set I run on Lucina:

3131

Dashing Assault, Dancing Blade, Dolphin Jump, Counter.

While the set does look odd, it has its merits. Dancing Blade and Counter are unchanged due to the invaluable utility the default moves posess, as I personally feel that the other options for both slots are too niche or weak.
Dashing Assault is used over Shield Breaker to ensure a fast mobility option on the ground that can also do neat things like send an opponent airborne for a small bit or reflect attacks like Dedede's Gordos while advancing, granting momentum so long as you don't use it on a shield.
Dolphin Jump is preferred over Dolphin Slash for a few reasons. One, I feel the damage from Dolphin Slash is negligible for my tastes since the set favors mobility. Two, the added height the Dolphin Jump goes helps immensely when getting back on stage, especially in the event that the second jump has been used, and three, it's a great edgehogging tool since I can keep opponents guessing by falling a considerable distance and getting back up with ease.

Of course, if I want to exchange some of the mobility for offense, there is a second spread I use:

1131

Shield Breaker, Dancing Blade, Dolphin Jump, Counter

Shield Breaker is returned to serve as a mixup tool dangerous to those who block recklessly, while the other options are unchanged due to their utility. Dolphin Jump is the only custom move used, as my main use for an up special is recovering, not attacking, and it still works for the same purposes. Trading ground mobility for offense, it's a set that I use when Shield Breaker's raw power is needed, such as against bulky or large targets.

Hope this helps the project, AA.

 

[Moydow]

Dancing Blade customs are not great, so generally going to be sticking to the default there.

Dashing Assault is going to be preferred over Shield Breaker in most instances, but it may be worthwhile to offer Shield Breaker as an option. Likewise for Dolphin Jump over Dolphin Slash, and possibly also Rush Counter over default.

Crescent Slash and Storm Thrust have their uses, but probably aren't going to be seen as often as their alternatives. Easy Counter is worthless.

So I'd have
3133
3113
3131
1133
1131
1113

and those should cover most players.

 

[Locuan]

I do not know if this still occurs in Patch 1.04, but Lucina could guarantee a combo on short Characters with Crescent Slash. Therefore, if this still holds true, it could be a viable option to have the previously mentioned sets have a variant with Crescent Slash in order to have some sort of advantage in those match-ups. For example, I have a 3133 set and a 3123 set on my 3DS for those match-ups.

@ Amazing Ampharos you helped Thinkaman on the data recollection for the above linked thread. Do you know if it is still something that combo's in Patch 1.04?

 

[Makai Wars]

Oh, people don't like Side B, Heavy Blade? I think it's pretty nifty and gives Lucy a move that kills from centerstage at like %60.
The third bit angled down also has a good strict horizontal knockback angle similar to Jiggly's DSmash or IC's dtilt (RIP ;_;7)
The final swing angled forward has CRAZY range and power, I really think it's worth trying out.

ANYWAY, I run 3311 but Dolphin Jump works just as well

So
3311
3331
3111
3131

 

[LIQUID12A]

Oh, people don't like Side B, Heavy Blade? I think it's pretty nifty and gives Lucy a move that kills from centerstage at like %60.

Speaking in complete respect of your opinion, I feel that Heavy Blade has way too much recovery and is unsafe. The few times I bothered to use it, I was left open if I whiffed since the time between blade strikes is too high to be safe, personally. I will admit it has a niche use for quick damage, but in my opinion, it's a double edged sword(hilariously).

Of course, if it suits your tastes, well, more power to you.

 

[SSJHero]

I like using 3/1/1/3.

Dolphin Jump is great, because like others have said, the damage from Dolphin Slash is negligible and the extra height from Jump is amazing. I really like using Iai Counter because it is amazing if you can get the read on a ledge and counter them off stage to their likely death. I leave the others as is because breaking shields is fun as hell, and I don't like the Dancing Blade customs at all.

 

[LIQUID12A]

I like using 3/1/1/3.

Dolphin Jump is great, because like others have said, the damage from Dolphin Slash is negligible and the extra height from Jump is amazing. I really like using Iai Counter because it is amazing if you can get the read on a ledge and counter them off stage to their likely death. I leave the others as is because breaking shields is fun as hell, and I don't like the Dancing Blade customs at all.

Did you mean to say 1/1/3/3? Jump and Iai are the respective 3's on the requested format and the first 3, according to the format you used, would be Dashing Assault.

With all due respect, side switching<raw damage. Because both custom counters weaken the counter, I feel that they are slightly niche, but granted a free side switch is hard to pass up. But because it's faster to kill a foe with a strong countered move...I dunno, I still feel Iai is niche, but given its property I might test it more to see its utility for myself.

 

[SSJHero]

That is indeed what I meant. >_>

Yeah it does less, but it's also faster, which I like as well.

 

[Radius-86]

Pretty sure Crescent Slash is the best by far. It combos from fthrow and gives Lucina a kill option from grabs. Doing it from the edge of the stage kills Bowser under 80%. You can still make it back if you use it at the edge. Also combos from fair. Has a very Melee feel to it, because Melee has a lot of strong throw combos that require fast DI reflexes to escape.

It also allows you to instantly slice someone out of the air, which is a very useful approach against characters that jump a lot (like Jigglypuff, or Mario and Pikachu when they use projectiles).

The horizontal reach also allows you to jump out further to edge-guard, the trade-off is you can't edge-guard at lower altitudes.

 

[ZFallen]

Reviving this due to Evo. Any new thoughts going into which custom sets work well? I'd provide greater input if I could unlock them all! :O That's the next goal for me.

 

[AufWiedersehen]

I've been using 3131 in the custom tournaments I've competed in. It's worked out well so far; in my first tournament ever it got me out of pool play. The Dashing Assault is really nice for spacing and poking from a distance, however you need to be careful not to overextend too much otherwise your opponent will shield and punish since it has a bit of ending lag that I have not yet found a way to cancel. The Dolphin Jump makes off stage play much easier without risk of SDíng. I keep Dancing Blade as default since I'm not too big of a fan of the customs.

However, soon I'm going to try 3133 and try the Iai Counter instead of default Counter. I don't use Counter too much, if at all since it is easily read and punished, but the few times I do, the damage and knockback is usually not enough to kill my opponent. If anything it just knocks them back, allows them to recover and then we're back to neutral. The Iai Counter, on the other hand, appears to knock your opponent behind you, which could give chances for comboing or knocking them off the stage past the point of no return.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

My current thoughts on Marth/Lucina are pretty simple. The current sets are:

3111
1113
1133
1121
3133
3131

I'm thinking of finishing the iterations of neutral-3, up-3, and down-3 that aren't included (3113, 1131) since the choice between these seems to be personal preference, adding in 3121 which is a popular and logical request, and then using the 10th and final slot for whatever the best Heavy Blade build is since of all the non-represented custom moves that would seem to be the most viable. That only raises the question of whether excluding neutral-2 completely is indeed wise.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

I haven't heard much discussion about the second custom for Lucina; at full charge the move is a very good recovery option that beats out the third custom for horizontal recovery (or maybe it was due to how high my speed was from equipment) and of course has a wind box, useful for edge guarding. Iai Counter is basically the best way to kill someone when off of the stage since they'll inevitably try to edgeguard (I've killed plenty of people doing that) while coming out very fast and it moves you forward (I've actually recovered a bit often successfully doing that).

 

[SSJHero]

My current thoughts on Marth/Lucina are pretty simple. The current sets are:

3111
1113
1133
1121
3133
3131

I'm thinking of finishing the iterations of neutral-3, up-3, and down-3 that aren't included (3113, 1131) since the choice between these seems to be personal preference, adding in 3121 which is a popular and logical request, and then using the 10th and final slot for whatever the best Heavy Blade build is since of all the non-represented custom moves that would seem to be the most viable. That only raises the question of whether excluding neutral-2 completely is indeed wise.

I've done a bit more experimenting, and almost got a kill with Iai Counter off stage while they were at 0%. (It put them at 21%)
It's likely worth further testing from better suited players.

 

[Qispichiq]

I use 3311, I think Heavy blade is very useful at a solid heavy poke with good knockback at low percents

 

[M@v]

3111 and 3113 are the two I use. I guess I can add 1113 too. Not sure how I feel about Heavy blade yet, and I need to practice the combos with crescent slash. To be honest though, I can't stand its arc/sweetspot for damage.

 

[Locuan]

If I weren't constantly having SD's with Crescent Slash (I'm still practicing with the set to avoid this), I would definitely be using it but 3111 is my most used set. Although I have been practicing Crescent Slash combos and it is definitely something we need to utilize. Anyways, default Dancing Blade is what I believe to be our best option. We already have a lot of moves that have good knock back, damage and poke. Default Dancing Blade lets us set up for various traps which heavy blade does not offer.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Dancing Blade is too fast to give up in exchange for more damage...plus added start/end lag.

I personally find Dolphin Jump as useful as Dolphin Slash simply because it makes recovery easier. I rarely use DS for attacking purposes anyway.

Dashing Assault I find interchangeable with Shield Breaker in an argument of mobility vs power. Though from recent battles, I find Shield Breaker to be the option I prefer.

 

[Locuan]

Additionally, dolphin jump allows you to go for edge-guards that where potentially deadly if you had dolphin slash. All three up-b variations are surprisingly useful.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm surprised there are not more Crescent Slash sets.

I sometimes use x123 (though I personally like more x113) and it feels an intuitive, non- trivial move that allows easy followups . I haven't used it enough as an OOS option to be completely sure though, but it *feels* solid.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Is Crescent Slash finally getting the recognition it deserves?!

I use 3123. Dashing Assault is a pretty okay way to mix up your approach, but I'll also run Shield Breaker sometimes. There doesnt seem to be a valid reason to run Heavy or Easy over Dancing. Iai is the strongest counter and if you land it its a good way to reset the situation and possibly work it into your favour. Also nice for dealing with offstage edgeguarding. Crescent Slash provides amazing offensive presence, and is sort of like Ganondorf's Wizard Dropkick in that it lets you threaten a huge, unorthodox area you can't otherwise. It combos out of FThrow, aerial grab releases, FAir, and DTilt (depending on their DI though). If you score a grab at the ledge youre pretty much guaranteed the stock on anyone.

 

[Locuan]

Crescent Slash is the go to up-b. And probably the one that will end up having the most use. I just wish I didn't SD so much due to me being used to Dolphin Slash for so many years.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Yeah Crescent Slash is pretty restrictive in recovery, in that if you run either one of the Dolphins you can run Dashing to cover the lack of vertical recovery but you can't really compensate for Crescent. You can still ledgesnap from surprisingly low though, so if you're close enough on a walled Omega hope isnt totally lost. That being said I feel slanted Omegas are the best for when youre running Crescent Slash.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The problem with using Dashing Assault for recovery is that it has TONS of ending lag and you may end up too low.
Also, Lucina seems to need Shield Breaker way more than Marth, as her aerials are riskier and the mixup is beneficial for her.
Anyway, I'd rather simply readjust my vertical/horizontal spacing to Cresent Slash's, but even that sounds risky/linear/predictable.

For me It's still 1113, 3113, 1123 or 3123.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Is Crescent Slash finally getting the recognition it deserves?!

I use 3123. Dashing Assault is a pretty okay way to mix up your approach, but I'll also run Shield Breaker sometimes. There doesnt seem to be a valid reason to run Heavy or Easy over Dancing. Iai is the strongest counter and if you land it its a good way to reset the situation and possibly work it into your favour. Also nice for dealing with offstage edgeguarding. Crescent Slash provides amazing offensive presence, and is sort of like Ganondorf's Wizard Dropkick in that it lets you threaten a huge, unorthodox area you can't otherwise. It combos out of FThrow, aerial grab releases, FAir, and DTilt (depending on their DI though). If you score a grab at the ledge youre pretty much guaranteed the stock on anyone.

This ****ing man

THIS MAN IS A ****ING PROPHET!!!!

100 internets to this genuis

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
Lucina:

1/3, 1, 1/3, 1/3 niche: XX2X

1113, 1131, 1133, 3111, 3113, 3131, 3133
niche: 3121, 3123, 1123

I see Crescent Slash getting more and more love every day. Is it ready to leave niche territory and join the big boys as a top line set (perhaps bump down Dolphin Jump sets to niche, not that it will affect what things you can actually pick in tournament)? Likewise, if Crescent Slash has reached that point, do we want 1121 over 1131? Of course, any other concerns are welcome as well.

 

[Radius-86]

http://www.twitch.tv/canadianjoysticks/b/634104710?t=2h06m15s

Regarding Crescent Slash I finally have some footage to demonstrate what I've mentioned a few times on this board. Just watch the first two games to get the idea.

It true combos, gives Lucina aerial kill potential, and also makes her throws a little more dangerous (normally her throws are non-threatening). Great move and adds options she does not have. You recover from farther away so it lets you chase much farther out while also completely preventing some characters from edgeguarding you because they can't chase that far.

All that being said, Lucina is still pretty meh, I don't use her when things get too rough. But Crescent is definitely best in slot.

Marth can do the exact same thing because the sweetspots are the same for both characters (but it won't connect if you tipper your aerials).

For the other specials...

Neutral 1 is the best IMO because Lucina (and Marth) have a lot of difficulty with players who shield a lot. You need neutral 1 for that. It is also very useful against shielding on platforms. Without it your only way to punish shield is grab, and Lucina's throws are terrible, even with Crescent. I know some players like neutral 3 and it's not bad either but I feel like neutral 1 offers more than 3 does in terms of fixing flaws with the character.

Need both counter 1 & 3, 1 is for edge-guarding the easy characters like Link, Bowser, Shulk, etc (3 doesn't work because it hits them the wrong way). 3 is for defense against people who chase offstage like Sheik with down b.

If side b and up b are set in stone, only need four slots to cover everything:
1121
1123
3121
3123

If someone wants dolphin slash for whatever reason (maybe against Kirby's custom b, the leaping swallow which could put you at very low altitudes by the time you break free), that would take eight slots.
No one should be using dolphin jump, or any custom up b that has no hitbox for that matter (unless you can angle it to make it less predictable like Rosalina's). It's just so easy to edgeguard; even if you don't end up dying you take damage every time.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dolphin Jump is legit. Instead of combos and set-ups your main focus is getting them off stage and just going for hardcore edgeguarding and off stage harassment. I think if you run Dolphin Jump though, Dashing Assault is a must since it pushes your opponent towards the ledge.

 

[ShenCS]

What characters does Dolphin Jump help her more effectively guard against?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Villager for one. Normally you can't really edgeguard him for anything.

But really it just lets you go very deep offstage and harass opponents in situations you normally couldnt.

 

[AufWiedersehen]

I just tried Crescent Slash today, really liking the forward throw -> Crescent Slash combo and its kill potential. Some downsides are it really restricts Lucina's off stage play capabilities, makes it more difficult for Lucina to recover, and makes any dair meteor attempt suicidal if not done above above the edge. I'm reminded of PM Roy's ability to recover and fight off stage.

On the other hand, Dolphin Jump makes Lucina's off stage play much safer, and you can gimp and go for the dair meteor with much less risk of SD'ing. But with no hitbox, Lucina loses the ability to stage spike with her up-B, like she can with Dolphin Slash.

I think one of the keys to winning in the custom metagame will be proficiency with multiple custom moveset builds, and knowing which set is best in a particular matchup and situation. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some situations where her default moveset is the best for a particular scenario. I don't know if there's a one-size-fits-all moveset for Lucina when customs are a factor. I'm reminded of games like Ultra Street Fighter IV or UMvC3 where you have certain options to choose from in addition to choosing your character(s).

Movesets I'm going to be to try working with (besides default) include:

3131
3133
3123
3121
3111
1121
1123

 

[Emblem Lord]

Counter picking with customs.

That's a thing

 

[Pipmonchan]

Thanks to this thread I finally got to try customs for Lucina yesterday and.... wow.
Shieldbreaker and Dancing Blade are untouchable for me for SB's ability to punish shields and DB's quickness and put damage early.
I disliked Crescent Blade the first time I tried it because of the inevitable SD's because of being used to Dolphin Slash's vertical recovery, but after seeing u/Radius-86 video of how he used it, it blew my mind. Killing from Fthrow is awesome and reminds me of Wolf's sideB, which was awesome too. CB can deliver quite a few SDs at first, but it's worth to train that part in favor of the benefits it gives to Lucina.
Isai Counter is great for counter gimping and can switch the flow of the match. Looks cool too!

Also, I would love to see how custom counter picking will be handled.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

1/2/3,1,2/3,3 I just like Iai counter so much after using it for coming back to the stage and getting wins. I haven't given Crescent Slash a fair try but after reading the great results it does seem very amazing but you lose a good amount of recovery. I do see why Shield Breaker is probably the best but Storm Thrust can be useful for lousy recovery characters and Dashing Assault is just an amazing mobility tool. >B should probably never be changed. My personal favorite to use and abuse is 3,1,3,3 with Dolphin Jump I can make it back no matter what (Also love Dr Mario so recovery is a very touchy thing with me). Most people don't let me get the SB off anyway and when I do they are not shielding.

 

[LIQUID12A]

After playing custom matches, I'm completely sold on both Crescent Slash and Iai Counter. Hitting from forward throw is godlike and sending opponents backwards is quite useful.

So my new favorite would be 1123. Doesn't mean I'll stop using Dolphin Slash, though.

 

[Macchiato]

Crescent slash is amazing. It's pretty good at edgeguarding in general too. I see it being one of her best customs in the future.

 

[Pipmonchan]

1123 is the one for me.

 

[M@v]

The current movesets look good to me. Personally I like 3111, 3113, 1113, and default. I do think crescent slash ones are important to have too. I'm bad with it right now, but it has the true combos which is a big deal. I personally just can't stand the angle it goes at. I also love upb OoS, and crescent slash isn't nearly as good at that since its sweet spot is mid swing rather at the startup. I'll have to practice with it more so I know how to use it in case I ever decide to run it.

 

[Macchiato]

I'll say we need some crescent slash sets. A good fthrow at the edge can get some 50% kills