Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Jigglypuff

[Jiggly]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
Jigglypuff:

1/3, 1/3, 2, 1/2 niche: 2XXX, X2XX

1122, 1321, 1322, 3121, 3122, 3321, 3322
niche: 2121, 2122, 1221

I left out 1121 because, while I think the consensus is that Hyper Voice is the best up special among generally dreadful options, up-2 over up-1 is a trivial optimization and it is more in Jigglypuff's interest to have an additional unique set and to just pick default for 11X1. Otherwise I tried to follow what you guys have been suggesting and what seems to be agreed to be the most important options to have as closely as I could. Let me know if you want it to be different; this is just preliminary.

we need the 2nd most suggested set, 1211. sideways pound is crucial in many matchups such as rosaling, marth, and lucina just to name a few.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

we need the 2nd most suggested set, 1211. sideways pound is crucial in many matchups such as rosaling, marth, and lucina just to name a few.

Is 1211 really better than 1221? I thought it was agreed that Hyper Voice was better than Sing even if mostly trivially (up special on Jigglypuff is a dreadful move with all options). I did read what you said about Sideways Pound before; that's why it was included... as 1221.

 

[Jiggly]

Is 1211 really better than 1221? I thought it was agreed that Hyper Voice was better than Sing even if mostly trivially (up special on Jigglypuff is a dreadful move with all options). I did read what you said about Sideways Pound before; that's why it was included... as 1221.

Nah, hyper voice has no applications as even if it hits, it's still punishable. If sing hits, they're down. Sing can be used to punish rolls or possible ledge cancel if opponents try to cover an incorrect getup options. Sing can possibly get a kill, where hyper voice is 4% plus a guaranteed punish. They are both bad, but hyper voice shouldn't be messed with.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I was relying on Reflex's analysis about the up specials:

All the Up-Bs range from "really situational" to "outright useless," mostly because the hitboxes don't linger. Normal Sing is probably the worst by virtue of it having an absolutely abysmal hitbox and doing nothing to people who are in the air. Even if it could hit people in the air, nobody will willingly be that close to you long enough for you to do this to them. If Sing lingered it could be a potentially-great spotdodge punish, but it doesn't, so it's not. Attacking Sing and Flipping Sing are automatically better than the original by virtue of hitting aerial opponents and having hitboxes large enough to hit reasonable individuals. Also, if you hit with the first part of Sing, people can still mash out of it if they're under 100% before you can punish. :/

Attacking Sing has solid knockback and a decent disjoint. You can shorthop above the ledge and use this to attack near the edge before immediately grabbing it, which is nice. Also, the start-up is short enough to allow you to ledge drop and double-jump immediate Up-B so that it hits right before you grab the ledge, allowing for the disjoint to be effective under the ledge as well. I haven't tested it against other recoveries, but the start-up and disjoint seem like they could beat things that your aerials would not. It also has some utility in being an attack that can hit people who ledge drop, ledge jump, or ledge roll. Probably not the greatest method of dealing with them, but that's still worth noting. This has the greatest flexibility and usefulness (by Sing standards) and is gonna be the special of choice here.

Flipping Sing has no real knockback with a large start-up increase but a huge disjoint. Instead of knockback, Flipping Sing has a gimped Mario Cape effect, hitting them with a 1% love tap but turning around any aerial momentum an opponent has while outright flipping their Left/Right movement for the next 30 frames. While highly matchup-specific, this can potentially be a pretty useful tool, helping against characters with difficult sweetspots post-flip (like Luigi, Ness, and Falcon), as well as ones with specific traits. The armor on Bowser and Yoshi (as well as Yoshi's decaying Up-B) make it so they don't like to recover against it because it essentially becomes a slow, huge Mario Cape, and it flips Bowser Jr.'s Up-B without giving him his Clown Car back due to the low knockback. Actively useful in specific matchups but otherwise pretty bad; worth messing with here and there!

If the Jigglypuffs collectively feel that Sing is a real move, there's no real reason it can't replace Hyper Voice on every set, but it seems unlikely that Sing is actually a better move than Hyper Voice to me. That's not to say Hyper Voice is anything but awful (it's really bad), but Sing is, well, Sing, and my baseline assumption is that it's the absolute worst move in the game for the fourth smash game in a row. I'll probably do some mechanical testing in the next few days to be sure about the parameters of Sing in this game so we can be really sure. I remember in Brawl it was usually unsafe on hit until past 100% (like you hit with Sing and they woke up and hit you before you could act), but I haven't personally and specifically tested the percent ranges at which it's safe on hit in this game yet.

 

[Jiggly]

I was relying on Reflex's analysis about the up specials:



If the Jigglypuffs collectively feel that Sing is a real move, there's no real reason it can't replace Hyper Voice on every set, but it seems unlikely that Sing is actually a better move than Hyper Voice to me. That's not to say Hyper Voice is anything but awful (it's really bad), but Sing is, well, Sing, and my baseline assumption is that it's the absolute worst move in the game for the fourth smash game in a row. I'll probably do some mechanical testing in the next few days to be sure about the parameters of Sing in this game so we can be really sure. I remember in Brawl it was usually unsafe on hit until past 100% (like you hit with Sing and they woke up and hit you before you could act), but I haven't personally and specifically tested the percent ranges at which it's safe on hit in this game yet.

at 60% they stay asleep till the song ends, at 80% you can actually rest punish. hyper voice deals a little bit of KB and does 4% of damage, which is a confirmed punish. No matter if it hits, hyper voice is punishable, and that's why it is bad. Sing can possibly hit, and is better for ledge cancel. They are both bad, but sing is the best of a bad situation.

 

[Codaption]

at 60% they stay asleep till the song ends, at 80% you can actually rest punish. hyper voice deals a little bit of KB and does 4% of damage, which is a confirmed punish. No matter if it hits, hyper voice is punishable, and that's why it is bad. Sing can possibly hit, and is better for ledge cancel. They are both bad, but sing is the best of a bad situation.

In my experience, landing Sing doesn't keep them asleep for the whole duration until past 100%. Unless you're talking about a ledge-canceled sing or landing it on the last hit (neither of which I've tested), I don't see how it could be useful until that point. Correct me if you actually were talking about one of those...

 

[Jiggly]

In my experience, landing Sing doesn't keep them asleep for the whole duration until past 100%. Unless you're talking about a ledge-canceled sing or landing it on the last hit (neither of which I've tested), I don't see how it could be useful until that point. Correct me if you actually were talking about one of those...

When I play, its usually around rest percent that the opponent stays asleep, so 60-70%. Although it takes until 90-100 to get a good punish.

even then, its still less punishable then hyper voice.

 

[Patriot Duck]

Are there any applications to spinphony at all? I noticed one of Puff's builds in the official custom project thread had it (unless it's been changed since then), and I've been wondering why anyone would pick it over the other two up b's.

 

[Jiggly]

Are there any applications to spinphony at all? I noticed one of Puff's builds in the official custom project thread had it (unless it's been changed since then), and I've been wondering why anyone would pick it over the other two up b's.

spinphony is terrible, for the sole reason it hits only twice, the attack is as long as the other two, and each hit lasts as long as the others. It has terrible startup, your opponent would literally have to walk into it. You cant use it as an edgeguard because of the startup.

 

[Codaption]

spinphony is terrible, for the sole reason it hits only twice, the attack is as long as the other two, and each hit lasts as long as the others. It has terrible startup, your opponent would literally have to walk into it. You cant use it as an edgeguard because of the startup.

That's three sole reasons

 

[Jiggly]

That's three sole reasons

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh *slowly puts chloroform towelette over your mouth*

 

[A2ZOMG]

So it just came to my attention that U-throw Leaping Rest is a kill confirm combo. Actually for that matter, a bunch of things combo into it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhanK-GQQMY&t=7m41s

Any disadvantages to Leaping Rest that I might not be aware of? This seems to be really huge, given one of Jiggs main problems is lacking real KO setups outside of raw punish situations or edgeguards.

 

[Jiggly]

So it just came to my attention that U-throw Leaping Rest is a kill confirm combo. Actually for that matter, a bunch of things combo into it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhanK-GQQMY&t=7m41s

Any disadvantages to Leaping Rest that I might not be aware of? This seems to be really huge, given one of Jiggs main problems is lacking real KO setups outside of raw punish situations or edgeguards.

These KO setups are risky, up throw is an easy DI throw, which most good players will do. Leaping rest has no good un DI-able cobs except pound blitz. Leaping rest is risky, has less applications, and isn't as powerful.

 

[A2ZOMG]

These KO setups are risky, up throw is an easy DI throw, which most good players will do. Leaping rest has no good un DI-able cobs except pound blitz. Leaping rest is risky, has less applications, and isn't as powerful.

I'm not sure you can DI those followups. Jigglypuff literally had enough time to take a step forward after U-smash and still have time to combo into Leaping Rest. Seems very consistent as long as you know the percent ranges where it works.

 

[Jiggly]

I'm not sure you can DI those followups. Jigglypuff literally had enough time to take a step forward after U-smash and still have time to combo into Leaping Rest. Seems very consistent as long as you know the percent ranges where it works.

No, it's only consistent a couple times I the opponent aren't ready for it. That's like expecting pikachus up throw to thunder to always kill. You don't have enough time to jump forward and leaping rest before the opponent can air dodge, I've tested it. It only works and kills at 70-90%, and when they fly that high, DI is easy, and reacting is even easier. It's not all too great upon further inspection. Running a move assuming that the opponent will mess up their DI is bad.

 

[Jiggly]

so one of the main sets currently posted for puff is 1122, which is pretty lousy. Leaping rest can easily be airdodged, so it's not good as a basic attack. Up air CAN combo if not DI'd, which people will because they don't want it to chain. Up tilt doesn't send them straight up at higher percents needed for a leaping rest kill. The only good combo is pound blitz because it has less end lag then the other pounds, to make up for its start-up. It seems it may be better to go back to the original set it replace, 1211, as it's pound with a different trajectory, which is amazing for some MUs. @ Amazing Ampharos you should change back to the old set 3, as I'm sure we don't need a leaping rest set without the best combo with it.

 

[Reaper Talk]

Kind of in this discussion late, mainly because I'm in favor of 1111
What are the benefits of pound blitz? Doesn't it do less shield damage than regular pound

 

[drakeirving]

It can start uair juggles, or more usefully you can pop them up and try to bait an airdodge or attack and you go from there. Baiting with Blitz takes advantage of the fact that it takes longer to finish and is more likely to get them to react out of it, and it pops them directly up unlike Pound's trajectory (can't DI it either), which sets up for slightly different followups.

There's also the matter that it can true combo into Rest at certain ranges, including an early kill range on some characters including Diddy, notably. For that reason alone it might be useful as a counterpick option. Otherwise, I think Pound is generally a better option mostly because it comes out sooner, ends sooner, and it wrecks shields.

 

[Macchiato]

The set I use is 2321

Relentless rollout is great for recovery because it just goes through them and doesn't make her SD if someone interrupts her.

Pound Blitz true combos to Uair and rest and some percents and Pound Blitz to Leaping Rest is a true kill combo at higher percents.

Hyper Voice has its uses, one being that it actually hits aerial opponents. Against some recoveries like Captain Falcon, Link, and Pit. Edgecanceling it is a pretty good way edgeguard without going deep and possibly accidently SDing what Jiggs mains shouldnt have happen anyways

Rest is amazing itself.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Out of curiosity, what matchups do you feel inclined to use that Neutral-B for recovery?

 

[Macchiato]

Out of curiosity, what matchups do you feel inclined to use that Neutral-B for recovery?

Projectile less characters but Rollout has no onstage anyways so why not buff recovery.

I use it against

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Confession time: I've never used Relentless Rollout in any significant capacity in a competitive match.

Is it safe on block? Hitting multiple times makes it sound like it would be. I wonder if this could be a useful tool for eating up the timer.

 

[Macchiato]

Confession time: I've never used Relentless Rollout in any significant capacity in a competitive match.

Is it safe on block? Hitting multiple times makes it sound like it would be. I wonder if this could be a useful tool for eating up the timer.

It's safe on block, it also charges faster too

 

[Reaper Talk]

So then I'm guessing 2321 and 1321 should be critical?
I'm in favor of hyper voice in all sets because of the edge cancelling, I haven't seen too many uses of sing in the tournament matches I've watched

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Did some more experimentation this morning--

Played around with all the Neutral-Bs; Neutral-B1 is easily the most versatile; it's a solid KO move and doesn't take much time to charge up to a useful state; doing a shorthop away and charging it can bait opponents into moving forward or attacking, and even if they don't, its great speed, variable and instant start-up (the same reason a Lucario charging Aura Sphere is so hard to approach), and mix-ups with the steering (turning in the opposite direction takes away the hitbox until you start moving in the opposite direction; you can pass through the opponent and give yourself a good bit of space so that OoS tools wouldn't hit before you barrel toward them again; you can also hit a shield and turn immediately afterward) make it a low-risk, moderate-reward tool. It also has the advantage of more than doubling Jigglypuff's general movement, making it a good option for punishing techs, since "roll backward" is something that Jigglypuff struggles to fight against. Going for half-charge is useful because they don't require you to turn if you whiff (with a full charge, you'd otherwise keep going and die), and the variance also makes it much harder for opponents to get used to a specific punish timing. This move is better than originally thought; use it more, customs or not.

Relentless Rollout (Neutral-B2) grows in speed faster than regular Rollout in terms of movement speed and can therefore take advantage of the steering mix-ups mentioned earlier more easily, but you don't really get much out of them, since the damage is pitiful. It allows you to use it at very low percents without it being punishable on hit. The fast charge and ability to go through opponents she hits give Jigglypuff another recovery option, but that point is likely negligible since her recovery is excellent regardless. The biggest blow to its viability is its lengthy animation; no matter how little you charge it, you will be spinning for a while, even if you don't have an active hitbox with zero charge. This makes it more predictable than regular Rollout and easier to punish even with its extra speed. Low damage means that the opponent risks much less by testing their luck with a swing, too, so it appears to be a moderate-risk move with rather low reward. It doesn't drag Luma, either, so unless there's a matchup that we really need the extra help recovering, I don't think it's worth using.

Raging Rollout (Neutral-B3) is an interesting case, as it has a significant start-up time (you have to charge it for about a full second before it starts hitting while in motion) and cannot be steered. However, it is also unshieldable, has fast movement speed, is quite powerful even with only a moderate charge, and ends much more quickly; even if you can't steer, you're only about two double-jumps away from easily getting back to the ledge when you miss, and that's assuming you're, like, in the center of Battlefield doing it with a considerable charge; it can be even safer depending on distance from the ledge and amount of charge. This allows you high flexibility in your recovery on a whiff despite being forced offstage, and the fact that it's unshieldable and powerful makes it much more likely that opponents will not try to challenge it. It is unlikely that this move will hit anyone reliably in 1v1, but it's likely good for shaving time off the clock since people really won't want to mess with you while you do it. That said, regular Rollout seems rather good at that because of its much faster charge time, greater variation in speed, and the ability to steer it, so it's hard to justify this as a reason to use it in Singles. In Doubles, though, this move should be excellent, as it can be charged behind a partner and released on reaction to anyone hitting your partner near the ground for massive damage and knockback on a super-speedy hitbox that cannot be shielded and is difficult to punish on whiff.

Pound is a nice, versatile move with a lot going for it. The start-up is decent, allows you to continue "steering" up to when the hitbox comes out, and has a big, long-lasting hitbox that doesn't get weaker over time. Its solid speed and big hitbox makes it relatively easy to tag shields with, and it does about 60% of a full shield's health, which can be a game-changer if you can keep on the pressure. The lingering hitbox often catches opponents off-guard at mid-range, too; it's not very unsafe to use just outside of an opponent's range. Does good damage and puts them above you, letting you pressure with your aerials on a hit. A great stand-alone option that does a lot for her range and shield pressure. Probably the best of her Forward-Bs overall.

Sideways Pound (Forward-B2)'s worse start-up (in comparison to regular Pound), small/less lingering hitbox, and general inability to distinguish itself much from her standard edgeguarding fare make it a pretty poor pick overall. Yes, it sends people at a 20-degree angle, but it's very hard to land, is relatively easy to punish on whiff, and is harder to follow-up on. It does have a niche in sending Luma about half a Battlefield's distance away even without prior damage, but the other two Pounds are already useful in that matchup and do more than that. Hard to recommend over the other two.

Pound Blitz (Forward-B3) seems to be a solid alternative to regular Pound. The start-up is very significant (first active hitbox is Frame 25 intead of Pound's 13 or Sideways Pound's 18), but there are a lot of aspects that mitigate that (admittedly rather large) liability. Since you can still steer Jigglypuff until the hitbox is out, you have new baiting flexibility in that you can Forward-B and start moving backward during the start-up, especially since it causes Jigglypuff to move forward more than Pound does. It is relatively safe on shield (in terms of safety, shielding Pound Blitz is similar to shielding the late part of regular Pound), and the final hit sends opponents straight up (as compared to regular Pound's 75-degree angle), which works well in tandem with Leaping Rest and U-Air as compared to F-Air/N-Air/Forward-B (yes, Pound -> Pound) pressure with regular Pound. The greater horizontal movement also assists with recovery ever so slightly. This will likely be more useful in specific matchups and is definitely not simply inferior to regular Pound.

Leaping Rest (Down-B2)'s great movement speed gives Jigglypuff a nice tool for threatening the space immediately above her; U-Air has a decent hitbox, but her slow vertical speed and stubby limbs leave much to be desired in terms of scaring opponents who are immediately above her. This move fixes that issue and can sometimes scare opponents into a preemptive airdodge, letting you punish the endlag relatively easily. Much like regular Rest, it is affected by Rage a significant amount, so Training Mode testing doesn't do it justice in terms of its KO power, and while it isn't as powerful as regular Rest, the very beginning of Leaping Rest is still pretty powerful (more powerful than the upward hit) with many of the same properties as regular Rest (invincible Frame 1, active Frame 2, opponent punishes with whatever they want on whiff). Opponents who are generally too safe or elusive to reliably use Rest often find this move to be a pain; it's a high-risk, high-reward option that can be significantly more applicable than regular Rest in some matchups. Would you trade some of the obscene power of Rest (KOing at 25-50% before the hit, depending on Rage) for extra juggle utility and range? I think it's an interesting question, and one that will probably be up to personal preference and matchups instead of one obviously being superior to the other.

I can think of literally zero use for Wakie Wakie (Down-B3) in competitive play. I suppose the logic is that it's a Down-B without significant endlag while the start-up windbox attempts to push others away, but with such abysmal start-up leading to a very short-lived hitbox, any use of that is likely going to be confined to free-for-all, as even in Doubles you're much better off using the other two Down-Bs.

tl;dr--1X2X, with Forward-B being between 1 and 3 and Down-B being between 1 and 2. At least one set dedicated to vs. Bowser/Yoshi for Spinphony actually getting better against their armor; standard Rest works well against them and regular Pound works well against them (1131, and/or 1132 for Leaping Rest's utility). Those six should cover everything. If you really need more sets, the last four would likely go toward Doubles (Raging Rollout with other stuff). If it's Singles-centric, I'd take a poll on what appears to be the less useful stuff so that people will be placated (I know people will want Sing...ugh).

1121
1122
1131
1132
1321
1322

Doubles stuff--

2121
2122
2321
2322

 

[Reaper Talk]

Nice to have a Jiggly pro among us
Thank you @ TheReflexWonder
Have you made a guide by chance?

 

[Codaption]

It's nice to know that I'm not a total klutz for using rollout every once in a while That being said, @ Reaper Talk , I wouldn't say the move is important enough to Puff to merit two sets devoted entirely to its variations, but it's good to see the enthusiasm!

As for sing....Eh. Sing is very rarely useful, if at all, and the same goes for the custom variations....unfortunately, they're just inherently poor moveset options that we got stuck with. Even with the edge-canceling trick, there's always a better option to be used.

Hopefully they'll restore Sing to its Smash 64 properties next game so that sing -> rest is something we can do again, but until then we have to deal with it as is. For that....Honestly, I'd just choose whichever Sing custom you feel like for a custom set, unless the set actually benefits from a certain variation on it. (Which isn't likely.)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I did mechanical testing on Sing myself as promised. Sing becomes safe on hit at around 80% (meaning that Jigglypuff is punished for hitting with Sing before 80% if you hit with first pulse and don't ledge cancel). It begins comboing to fsmash at around 100%. This is tested with an average competitive masher as the victim; at high levels with the super-human mashers, expect worse performance.

I want to be very clear about what Sing does. It gets Jigglypuff hit for connecting correctly if the victim is under 80%. If the opponent is between 80% and 100%, Jigglypuff probably doesn't get hit but gets essentially zero reward for hitting (you might get like ftilt if the opponent is in the 90s, oh boy). If the opponent is airborne, it does nothing and gets Jigglypuff punished super hard. The move is really slow in every way and has dubious hitboxes. The only times this move is realistically useful are when the opponent rolls right into you (and thus you hit with a late pulse) or if your opponent is just standing there almost directly next to the ledge and is also doing absolutely nothing to hit you out of Sing's start-up which will never happen. The high percent case is questionable given that you can kill outright with your faster, safer moves by the time Sing keeps them asleep long enough for a first pulse full execution hit to combo into a kill move.

Hyper Voice is a pretty awful move, but it covers a ledge pretty completely and can actually correctly use the move's ledge cancel property (not hitting airborne opponents makes default Sing's ledge cancel a joke). It seems obviously better than default. I also do get what Reflex is saying with Spinphony and could see some uses against Yoshi/Bowser for incredibly niche edgeguarding situations, but the move has Falcon Punch tier start-up on top of its other undesirable properties so, while it's still somehow better than Sing, I'd be hesitant to dedicate sets to it in place of Raging Rollout sets especially since Raging Rollout, as I recall, is Jigglypuff's best shield break punish and Jigglypuff has a pretty credible shield break game, does she not? We'll have to discuss that more as we finalize though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The thing about Spinphony is that it has an enormous hitbox, so at the very least, you can force a Yoshi or Bowser to hesitate before going for the ledge, which would make it easier for the rest of your edgeguarding repertoire to finish the job (something especially important for Yoshi, who is actually quite difficult to pressure offstage due to comparable horizontal aerial mobility and much bigger hitboxes for Yoshi's attack). Perhaps Hyper Voice could fill a similar role in that respect by having a big (but not enormous) hitbox while having a more reasonable start-up time?

Also, if I recall correctly, there are two different hitboxes on Sing--Inside and outside, with the outside putting people to sleep for a significantly shorter amount of time.

 

[fallenangemon0]

I am literally taken aback by how much people disregard Wakie-Wakie.


People seem to be justifying it's worth using scenarios that obviously make it useless. Using it when opponent is on stage? Lack of combo potential? Why is no one discussing it's viability as an extremely dangerous tool to edgeguard with?!

Once you get the timing down, you can use it to intercept recovering opponents with a strong, disjointed kill move that hits under the edge. Most opponents who just attempt to go for the edge are now forced to challenge your ability to time the move or stall their recovery until it's over, which not all characters can do.

I'd like for others to test using it this way and please report your findings. Foregoing OG Rest is of course a terrible loss to Jigglypuff as a character, and I don't even consider Jumping Rest worth using by comparison to default, but Wakie-Wakie has completely different applications that I feel are getting seriously overlooked. Jigglypuff's off stage game is amazing. Her ability to keep opponents off stage is only bolstered by threatening recovering foes with a nuclear explosion.

 

[Jiggly]

I am literally taken aback by how much people disregard Wakie-Wakie.


People seem to be justifying it's worth using scenarios that obviously make it useless. Using it when opponent is on stage? Lack of combo potential? Why is no one discussing it's viability as an extremely dangerous tool to edgeguard with?!

Once you get the timing down, you can use it to intercept recovering opponents with a strong, disjointed kill move that hits under the edge. Most opponents who just attempt to go for the edge are now forced to challenge your ability to time the move or stall their recovery until it's over, which not all characters can do.

I'd like for others to test using it this way and please report your findings. Foregoing OG Rest is of course a terrible loss to Jigglypuff as a character, and I don't even consider Jumping Rest worth using by comparison to default, but Wakie-Wakie has completely different applications that I feel are getting seriously overlooked. Jigglypuff's off stage game is amazing. Her ability to keep opponents off stage is only bolstered by threatening recovering foes with a nuclear explosion.

Show me some replays of it actually working, and I'll actually have a discussion with you.

 

[Codaption]

That is...interesting. It certainly sheds a new light on wakie-wakie.

I'm with you on saying I like vanilla rest better, though. It's one of two things that define us, the other being out amazing offstage game. Sacrificing one to bolster the other seems like an interesting choice, but.....it doesn't seem like it adds enough to our arsenal to justify giving up such a fantastic kill option. Keep in mind, Rest is one of the best kill moves in the game, and most of the time a character will be able to grab the ledge before the explosion comes out.

Also, the move hurts you. Why they felt this was necessary, I don't understand.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wakie Wakie hits on Frames 94-97. That's just way too long for anyone with half a brain to get hit by unless they have no choice, in which case you could do literally any other move instead.

 

[fallenangemon0]

"only a moron would get hit by it" is pretty far from discussion-worthy reasoning, Broseph Brostar.

I would agree with you if we were discussing a scenario where you used it on stage, in which case yes, no one would ever fall for it.

What I am suggesting however is that the move itself is threatening and when used vs. opponents with telegraphed recovery options with proper timing it blows up on people under the edge or desperately trying to reach the edge (or choose to just SD just to avoid the blast).

A reasonable point to refute this Application could be "why not go off stage and aerial them", but with Jigglypuff unable to spike or out prioritize most damaging Up B's (especially ones that can kill puff), you can at least now engage in a risky game of Chicken for a KO.

If you want replays of this in use, I'll get right on it and report back ASAP. I'm not at all implying this is her best option, I just strongly feel it belongs on at least ONE set!

 

[Codaption]

We may not have a spike, but we DO have Dair, which is a decently powerful semi-spike and definitely one of the better gimp tools in the game. As for out prioritizing recoveries, we have disjoint on Fair and Bair that can cut through a lot of them as it is.

Having a tool that's very effective in certain matchups is definitely a heads-up, but it's not worth trading one that's very effective in EVERY matchup. If your replays are informative, it might do more to prove your point, but nothing short of that is going to do much to sway an opinion on a move that's so poorly received.

 

[Someguyyoulikelydontknow]

I just picked up Jiggs recently, and so far, I am loving the trolliness of this character. Messing with custom sets, the sets I've picked up so far are the default rollout, sideways pound (can be substituted with blitz pound), hyper voice, and leaping rest. The leaping rest kill combos are pretty fun to use. That said, default rest is still pretty great, so I may stick with it. the hyper voice seems like a fun attack for edge guarding. Is this move viable as a jigglycide? If you use hyper voice as a means to gimp off stage, it seems like it makes dodging the move difficult, and can spike opponents against the stage. take note that the upper beams on HV can help your opponent recover, since it can launch them onto the stage. But HV does seem to spike early. HV also goes in conjunction with sideways pound. SP seems to have fabulous knockback, even at early percents. If you can keep your opponent off the stage, is SP > ftilt > HV a viable set up?

*EDIT* I rescind some of what I said about hyper voice, seeing as people do dodge it pretty well. I guess I just got lucky the first few times.

 

[Brellow]

Has anyone figured out a use for spinphany. It turns people around but it gives them back their recovery jump. There's so much end lag that you can't punish people after it. The move can't be that bad can it?

 

[Someguyyoulikelydontknow]

Has anyone figured out a use for spinphany. It turns people around but it gives them back their recovery jump. There's so much end lag that you can't punish people after it. The move can't be that bad can it?

To our current knowledge, it is. By all means, if you find a good hidden tech for it, tell it to us and we'll try it out. Until then, spinphony is pretty terrible.

 

[Codaption]

Spinphony is easily the worst move in the game imo. It has startup comparable to falcon punch, yet simultaneously has little to no reward. A move with frame data that bad shouldn't be punishable even on hit.

Maybe there's some sort of amazing thing we haven't discovered about it yet (which I doubt), but as of right now it's completely useless onstage and definitely our worst option offstage.

 

[Jiggly]

Spinphony is easily the worst move in the game imo. It has startup comparable to falcon punch, yet simultaneously has little to no reward. A move with frame data that bad shouldn't be punishable even on hit.

Maybe there's some sort of amazing thing we haven't discovered about it yet (which I doubt), but as of right now it's completely useless onstage and definitely our worst option offstage.

it's not as bad as wakey wakey. At least I can sometimes kill with spinphony...