Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Bowser Jr.

[Chiroz]

Real Talk:

Clown Cannon is a completely useless move in 1v1. It's like Din's Fire, but worse. You should never use it.

Piercing Cannon is "better" but still completely useless. You should never use it.

Air Cannon is a pretty bad move, but actually has some legitimate if situational use. You can use it off-stage, because it "bounces" Bowser Jr. up on use, and you can grab ledges from either side during this bounce. This is actually a pretty great edgeguard, basically a better FLUDD.

It is optimal to run Air Cannon on every set. There is no reason to ever use the other two moves in competitive play.

Clown Car Dash is robust offensive pressure and punish. On-hit, you can link into any aerial, which starts Bowser Jr.'s trademark disgusting aerial chains. You can also go for an up-b, which is also extremely high reward.

Koopa Drift sacrifices all of this for better spinout damage and incredible recovery. This is an overrated trade once you really see what Clown Car Dash is capable of, but it's definitely worth making in several matchups. Optimal play usually involves spinning out ASAP.

Grounding Dash is easy to dismiss, but is actually probably the best. It has frame 1 armor, which can break out of any non-true combo. I cannot stress how insanely valuable this is! On hit it buries grounded opponents, which you should always combo Abandon Ship into for 41% total damage--Abandon Ship is a multi-hit combo, so it does not suffer the bury knockback penalty. It does nothing to aerial opponents, but can be used as a recovery; you should always jump at the last second though, to avoid the poor spinout.

All 3 Koopa Karts are fantastic moves but fulfill completely different purposes. There need to be sets with all of them. Grounding Dash is the most critical though.

Abandon Ship is seemingly a true combo at high %s, does 28% damage, and has insane kill power. It is surprisingly safe, due to the interfering projectile, high jump, and terrifying disjoint on the hammer. It's even plausible to use OoS! An incredible move.

Meteor Ejection is an interesting trade. The damage and hammer kill power is the same. The combo is easier to land at high %s, the move enjoys some late Super Armor on startup, and the clown car projectile is a mediocre spike. The cost you pay for these bonuses are significantly less height (poor recovery), and the inability to combo a buried opponent. (From Grounding Dash)

Koopa Meteor is just bad. It's nothing compared to the other two options. Just a goofy, hilarious gimmick that no one should actually use competitively.

Abandon Ship and Meteor Ejection are both really good options that should be available. However, Meteor Ejection is pointless with Grounding Dash.

Mechakoopa is a pretty good projectile, but the ability to grab it hinders its stage control value. I really like it, but am unconvinced it is a truly good move at top-level play.

Impaitient Mechakoopa is too laggy (both on startup and cooldown) to offer much merit. It's not a terrible Clown Canon tier move, but it's definitely the weakest of the three options.

Giant Mechakoopa is overrated but probably still the best. It's just scary to have a 15% throwable on tap, period. Note that using this with Grounding Dash and Abandon Ship gives Bowser Jr. a 56% total damage shield break punish!

Bowser Jr. should probably use Giant Mechakoopa in every set. However, I sympathize with those who want to try and exploit the default.

I strongly suggest:

3111
3113
3123
3213
3223
3313

Ironically, I think the sets are in ascending order of value. (best last)

I know this is a really old post but just wanted to point out. Meteor Ejection works perfectly with Grounding Dash.


I'd like someone to discuss with me the pros and cons of Meteor Ejection vs Abandon Ship. From my testing they seem to have the same KO power (the hammer part) but Meteor Ejection is much, much easier to land (it also has set knockback that can't be DIed as much as Abandon Ship). It also adds a fairly decent spike to your options.

What are the disadvantages though? Is it only the shorter recovery or is there something I am missing? Is Jr's recovery bad? Do I need to use Abandon Ship otherwise his recovery becomes worthless or something? Just want to understand the move better.



Also Grounding Dash to Up-B is a kill combo at incredibly early %s with both Abandon Ship or Meteor Ejection. You can kill Mario at ~30% from the corner of FD (around 70% from the center). And at least with Meteor Ejection (not sure about Abandon Ship) it's a guaranteed combo as long as you land the Grounding Dash.

 

[krazyzyko]

Piercing easier to land?
Puh-lease.
It's way too small, so no way it's easier to land than the wall Clown Cannon is.

Big MK isn't more versatile. If you're lucky you can grab it before the opponent and... throw it.
Yes.
Normal MK is a fantastic trap.

Meteor Ejection doesn't have more KO POWER, but is better IMO.

Piercing is way faster so its easier to land. Size doesn't matter much for a projectile to be good. Speed is much more important if you ask me.

Usually what you want to do with MK is use it as an item unless you want to leave it covering a platform. You actually need to be even luckier with default to catch it before your opponent does with a dash attack or a fair. Big MK lands right in front of you so you will catch it before your opp unless he's in your face which it'll b silly to down B in that scenario.
I totally agree default is a great trap, but it can also be used against you more often.

Meteor's hammer does has more KO power actually.
And why else would you choose this one over default?

 

[Mr Moosebones]

What are the disadvantages though? Is it only the shorter recovery or is there something I am missing? Is Jr's recovery bad? Do I need to use Abandon Ship otherwise his recovery becomes worthless or something? Just want to understand the move better.

It's sort of a complicated tradeoff. BJr is extremely easy to gimp and shouldn't be recovering low in the first place. The drop in vertical height isn't honestly that big of a deal, but the additional starup is for that reason.

The big reason it's forwned upon by a few of us is the additional startup and lower height mean that it's mostly useless as a combo exender/kill move when coupled with side b 1. You can't connect with the hammer out of side b meaning if you want to actually net a kill with it sans edgeguard you need to have either broken their shield or use side b 3.

Piercing is way faster so its easier to land. Size doesn't matter much for a projectile to be good. Speed is much more important if you ask me.

Usually what you want to do with MK is use it as an item unless you want to leave it covering a platform. You actually need to be even luckier with default to catch it before your opponent does with a dash attack or a fair. Big MK lands right in front of you so you will catch it before your opp unless he's in your face which it'll b silly to down B in that scenario.
I totally agree default is a great trap, but it can also be used against you more often.

Meteor's hammer does has more KO power actually.
And why else would you choose this one over default?

1. The projectile is faster. No one should be stuck in 30 frames of endlag for a projectile that does 4-6%. It's extremely high risk/low reward.

2. That's actually not what you "usually" want to do with an MK. You almost always use it for stage control to limit your opponents options. If they go to grab it that means that's an easy option you can read and punish. If they ignore it you get free combos with it. Big MK doesn't have a hitbox and has a substantially shorter fuse and smaller throw distance. Good players aren't going to get hit by it before it explodes in-hand + the lack of hitbox means when you deploy it they can run through it and crucify you with an upsmash because there's so much endlag on deployment.

3. See above.

 

[krazyzyko]

@ Mr Moosebones
Interesting. I havent played anyone good tbh.
So then 1111 better overall?

 

[Mr Moosebones]

3111 is my favourite. His windbox cannon is sort of absurd, so I like to use it over an extremely low-use projectile, but I stick with the standard for the rest because it seems to be his best hope for having some semblance of a neutral game.

 

[krazyzyko]

3111 is my favourite. His windbox cannon is sort of absurd, so I like to use it over an extremely low-use projectile, but I stick with the standard for the rest because it seems to be his best hope for having some semblance of a neutral game.

Lol I need to mess around with that more it might actually be a safe way to jump back to the stage and maybe mess up someone's recovery spacing or w/e.

 

[Chiroz]

Yea I am also not feeling the small cannonball. I think the air cannon or just neutral is better (Going air cannon for now).

I think all MKs have their own unique uses (which means counter picking depending on matchup) but regular MK is the most versatile of the 3 and the best one for stage control.

I am still undecided between the 3 side-b's and between Up-B 1 and 2.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Yea I am also not feeling the small cannonball. I think the air cannon or just neutral is better (Going air cannon for now).

I think all MKs have their own unique uses (which means counter picking depending on matchup) but regular MK is the most versatile of the 3 and the best one for stage control.

I am still undecided between the 3 side-b's and between Up-B 1 and 2.

I can agree with that regarding MKs. Certain iterations definitely give certain characters a tough time. The tradeoffs are prominent for the non-standard ones though. Definitely need to know what you're doing with them before you pick those for your loadout. Can't be like "hmm impatient mk messes with villager, guess I'll use that for the first time ever in this tournament."

 

[Rynhardt]

You know the armor stops working once it's moving forward, right? People seem to be missing this extremely obvious point.

Yeah sure, frame one armor on startup allows you to get out of hairy situations and bait hard, but bjr has a tremendously difficult time landing killing moves and grounding dash takes away arguably his easiest one + stops him from being able to combo.


What are the properties of tripping sapling that allow side b 3 to go over it and not side b 1? Unless it has a special tripping mechanic that doesn't apply to other tripping items, you should be able to drive over it regardless.

The tree kills your combo game. You aren't going to land your side b1 > dair > bair combo on a villager camping his sapling. You can't super armor through sapling, lloid, and fair, one if not more of them are going to hit you through your bottom-side super armor.

What do you mean he'll have a difficult time landing kill moves? It turns his side b3 in to a guaranteed combo kill move. Hell every time he lands it it's a guaranteed 41% and it is -not- hard to land

Side b1 cannot punish smashes like this

And something tells me you don't know how to approach with side b3, because this is how much I care about losing the super armor after driving forward

The approach is half the length of Final Destination if you cancel your short hop on the very next frame, all super armor'd. And yes, it can be pivoted like all other side-b's. You can do this while running at someone. Even if they just block you can keep driving and hop away, nobody is catching you.

 

[guedes the brawler]

bowser jr does have anti villager/rosalina options but i think a jr player's best choice vs these 2 is to just swap characters.

it's not like Jr gets that much from customs in those match-ups (IMO) and it's not like both of his enemies don't get a lot of silly stuff with customs.

 

[Chiroz]

Side-B 3 can also act as FLUDD when cancelled on the corner of the stage. I've killed Marths and Marios with Explosive Up-B by just cancelling Side-B 3 in the corner and them hitting their Up-B against me which pushes them back just enough so they don't grab the edge and fall to their death.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

The tree kills your combo game. You aren't going to land your side b1 > dair > bair combo on a villager camping his sapling. You can't super armor through sapling, lloid, and fair, one if not more of them are going to hit you through your bottom-side super armor.

What do you mean he'll have a difficult time landing kill moves? It turns his side b3 in to a guaranteed combo kill move. Hell every time he lands it it's a guaranteed 41% and it is -not- hard to land

Side b1 cannot punish smashes like this

And something tells me you don't know how to approach with side b3, because this is how much I care about losing the super armor after driving forward

The approach is half the length of Final Destination if you cancel your short hop on the very next frame, all super armor'd. And yes, it can be pivoted like all other side-b's. You can do this while running at someone. Even if they just block you can keep driving and hop away, nobody is catching you.

Those are both cool and definitely the best positives side b3 has going for it.

Saying "every time you land it it's a guaranteed 41%" is hilarious since in both of those gifs there is no followup, though. There is no way they would stay buried long enough to get the combo you speak of based on that reaction.

Use side b 3 if you want dude, but those gifs are actually actively working against the point you're trying to make.

EDIT: My point is not that you're wrong as much as there is a ton of misinformation in this thread about stuff being "obviously better" than other stuff. Lot of gimmicks are being touted as superior because they occasionally lead to goofy stuff. The point of customs is to give everyone and every playstyle a chance. I just want to see the set that I and a few others deem to be best for our playstyles.

Side-B 3 can also act as FLUDD when cancelled on the corner of the stage. I've killed Marths and Marios with Explosive Up-B by just cancelling Side-B 3 in the corner and them hitting their Up-B against me which pushes them back just enough so they don't grab the edge and fall to their death.

This is actually hilarious. Why wouldn't they do damage and still snap though? So weird.

 

[Chiroz]

Those are both cool and definitely the best positives side b3 has going for it.

Saying "every time you land it it's a guaranteed 41%" is hilarious since in both of those gifs there is no followup, though. There is no way they would stay buried long enough to get the combo you speak of based on that reaction.

Use side b 3 if you want dude, but those gifs are actually actively working against the point you're trying to make.

EDIT: My point is not that you're wrong as much as there is a ton of misinformation in this thread about stuff being "obviously better" than other stuff. Lot of gimmicks are being touted as superior because they occasionally lead to goofy stuff. The point of customs is to give everyone and every playstyle a chance. I just want to see the set that I and a few others deem to be best for our playstyles.


This is actually hilarious. Why wouldn't they do damage and still snap though? So weird.

Side-B3's Kart is invincible when doing that spin thing (Only the kart though). It also has a weird windbox which pushes people away which is why it pushed them away from the snap. It was fairly hilarious.

I am now trying Up-B2 with Default Side-B and I am actually liking it much more than any other combination. Default Side-B has way too many options that Side-B 3 completely misses out on just because of how slow the start up is.



The 41% the person above me speaks is Side-B3 to Up-B which is 100% guaranteed at all %s and deals 41% damage. It also starts killing after like 60-70%.

Basically as long as you land the Side-B3 you can land ALL hits from Up-B (any of the Up-Bs) which in term is huge damage and knockback. The problem is that landing that first hit of the Side-B3 isn't always as easy as it sounds, even with the reverse Side-B3 trick.



I recently discovered that with Up-B2 you can do the same exact 41% combo with Default Side-B it just takes a lot of practice. Basically Side-B into them, JC side-B into Up-B2. If done correctly you will spike them which will allow you to land the whole combo.

Do the above combo right next to the edge for extra ****s and giggles as you spike your opponent offstage if your opponent DIs away from the stage.

Unlike the Side-B3 this combo stops working around 40% but at that % you can Up-B into hammer for 28% damage (not quite 41% but good enough). That stops working around 70-80% and at that point you can JC into Up-B hammer which is still a combo with Up-B2. This stops working at around 110% but by that time he's already at kill %. (Up-B hammer kills much earlier than 110%).



Also reverse default Side-B into Up-B2 hammer is a combo from 0 to about 125%. (At first with the spike included, later only the hammer and at the end JC + hammer)

 

[Blanc]

why are people still messing around with customs when they're all trash save air cannon?/

 

[Chiroz]

why are people still messing around with customs when they're all trash save air cannon?/

Maybe you should read some of the posts, it might change your opinion.

 

[Reaperfan]

My point is not that you're wrong as much as there is a ton of misinformation in this thread about stuff being "obviously better" than other stuff.

Just like how his defaults are all "obviously better" than all his customs?

Lot of gimmicks are being touted as superior because they occasionally lead to goofy stuff. The point of customs is to give everyone and every playstyle a chance. I just want to see the set that I and a few others deem to be best for our playstyles.

Then argue the strengths of those sets you want rather than trashing every other set. Trashing every other custom option isn't doing anyone any favors or making any progress towards the list being finalized. You only have 1 loadout left to get based on your preferences, so work towards getting that on rather than trying to shut down everyone else's discussion about what loadouts they want. We've got 10 options and we aren't just going to cut it off with 3111 and 3112.

 

[Chiroz]

I think Up-B2 should be reconsidered in order to make new sets.


Up-B2 DOES work with Side-B3 and it also DOES combo out of default Side-B (until 110%), both of which were things you guys thought weren't true before.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

The 41% the person above me speaks is Side-B3 to Up-B which is 100% guaranteed at all %s and deals 41% damage. It also starts killing after like 60-70%.

Lel. it's 100% guaranteed if your reaction is incredibly fast. Note the two gifs he posted and the fact that there is no way he could land an up b in time considering he didn't immediately jump. My point was that if it's so easy and so obviously a guaranteed combo to land then why didn't he even bother following up in those clips?

I think Up-B2 should be reconsidered in order to make new sets.


Up-B2 DOES work with Side-B3 and it also DOES combo out of default Side-B (until 110%), both of which were things you guys thought weren't true before.

... You seriously need to take a step back and put some work into this character before you start touting things as true combos. It's awesome to see someone hitting the lab but you can't just try and discredit someone who has spent substantially more time doing exactly the same thing as you because of a few minutes of research.

I don't remember saying side b 3 + up b 2 didn't work. That's a combination that makes sense to me. And saying "110%" as if the combo on vanilla doesn't already have approx a 75% variation from lightest to heaviest is wholly incorrect unless you're talking about one mystery character.

Other than that, like I said, it's great to see you trying out the character and his customs. I've got a decent bit of practical experience with them though. You might find new uses for things that I hadn't previously thought of, but I'm fairly adamant in the fact that it's harder to connect killing blows with side b 1 + up b 2.

Then argue the strengths of those sets you want rather than trashing every other set. Trashing every other custom option isn't doing anyone any favors or making any progress towards the list being finalized. You only have 1 loadout left to get based on your preferences, so work towards getting that on rather than trying to shut down everyone else's discussion about what loadouts they want. We've got 10 options and we aren't just going to cut it off with 3111 and 3112.

I already have argued the strengths to death. I've said my piece multiple times. Either you not understand my points, you do not understand English, or you are just trying to start an argument in the very manner that you're condemning.

I could possibly say the second, because I've never said I liked 3112
But that's just me being a smartass.

How much more plainly do I have to explain myself? Part of validating having a mostly vanilla set is based on explaining why nothing else actually works to the same success on competitive play. I've explained ad nauseum why that is and I was happy to leave it at that. Rynhardt specifically quoted me and specifically challenged what I said so I responded. I'm not trashing his set. If it works for him then so be it.

Quick question though: who here is going to apex?

 

[Chiroz]

Lel. it's 100% guaranteed if your reaction is incredibly fast. Note the two gifs he posted and the fact that there is no way he could land an up b in time considering he didn't immediately jump. My point was that if it's so easy and so obviously a guaranteed combo to land then why didn't he even bother following up in those clips?



... You seriously need to take a step back and put some work into this character before you start touting things as true combos.

I don't remember saying side b 3 + up b 2 didn't work. That's a combination that makes sense to me. And saying "110%" as if the combo on vanilla doesn't already have approx a 75% variation from lightest to heaviest is wholly incorrect unless you're talking about one mystery character.

You don't need "super fast reaction". Side-B3 doesn't go into spin when you hit. The person one the video was doing that himself (or the move was finishing it's range). After you hit with the Up-B you have AMPLE time to Up-B. In fact Side-B JC U-Air has a much harder timing than Side-B3 to Default Up-B.

It's literally an 100% guaranteed combo, no questions asked. The only part that requires timing is the hammer and that's just part of the Default Up-B anyways.



I need to take a step back and put some work into the char? A true combo is a true combo, it means your opponent has no say in it. Somone who has never played Ice Climbers can certainly tell you that chain grabs are a true combo when they perform it the first time.

Side-B3 to Up-B is literally one of the most true combos there are in the whole game. In fact if you use Side-B 2 it even has a set knockback so it can be comboed with your eyes closed until your opponent is so high damage that the spike takes him out of the explosion (around 180% for Mario). If anything you should try stuff out yourself before ruling it out as "gimmicks".



I specified Side-B to Up-B2 because it works at %s default Up-B DOESN'T while working at all %s that default does. Why? I explained in my post. At the beginning it spikes, then the jump is low enough to combo. Once people start going high enough you can sti JC Up-B and it's still a combo. DI miiight allow you to escape this last variation of this specific combo (but not any of the others) but there is definitely enough hitstun to land it with 0 DI from the opponent.



All my combos are tested on Mario. Should have specified that. I am sorry.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

I made some edits that make what I said a little more coherent and a little less brash. Getting a combo off in training does not always equate to a legitimate true combo though. A lot of his up followups are substantially DI dependant.

 

[guedes the brawler]

it might be easier to do the up-b thingy with bsticking, no? not sur eif it's worth it anyways.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

You don't need "super fast reaction". Side-B3 doesn't go into spin when you hit. The person one the video was doing that himself (or the move was finishing it's range). After you hit with the Up-B you have AMPLE time to Up-B. In fact Side-B JC U-Air has a much harder timing than Side-B3 to Default Up-B.

1. None of the attacks go into spin if you hit your opponent. I'm confused as to what that's in reference to.

2. Almost no combos in the game have an easier time hitting than side b > uair. You can literally input the uair on frame one and since it's a 4 frame startup, it'll work guaranted until basically side b kills on its own. It's almost completely braindead.

Also a lot of the side b 1 > up b combos that are being talked about are not actually talking about hitting with the explosion, but in fact hitting them with the hammer after they've been popped up; this might be causing some confusion. Up b 2 doesn't have a high enough jump to follow up and hit with the hammer.

And yes, jeez, i know that hitting someone with the explosion when they're buried is a true combo, but you have to be fast. "Super fast reaction" was in reference to the fact thay they don't stay buried for long and you essentially have to read that the cart is actually going to connect so you can react immediately. This is what makes it a gimmick more than anything to me. If you read incorrectly and they shield, you're trying to combo into an otherwise extremely unsafe move for which you might end up losing a stock.

 

[Chiroz]

I made some edits that make what I said a little more coherent and a little less brash. Getting a combo off in training does not always equate to a legitimate true combo though. A lot of his up followups are substantially DI dependant.

None of the combos I listed, except for JC Up-B have ANY room for DI. Side-B3 grounds you which doesn't allow for DI and the explosion of Up-B on a grounded opponent sends the opponent on the same flight path ALWAYS, no DI. You should test those things yourself.

The Side-B to Up-B2 miiight be DIable after 70% (when you are required to jump) but I took your own word on that Side-B to Up-B is a combo, unless you're going back on that one combo you defended so much.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

I'm honestly not here to prove anything to people who don't even play the character. I just want it to be noted that 3111 is a set that competitive players want to see in the final set.

(and that piercing cannon is horrendous and everyone should feel bad for using it)

 

[Chiroz]

1. None of the attacks go into spin if you hit your opponent. I'm confused as to what that's in reference to.

2. Almost no combos in the game have an easier time hitting than side b > uair. You can literally input the uair on frame one and since it's a 4 frame startup, it'll work guaranted until basically side b kills on its own. It's almost completely braindead.

Also a lot of the side b 1 > up b combos that are being talked about are not actually talking about hitting with the explosion, but in fact hitting them with the hammer after they've been popped up; this might be causing some confusion. Up b 2 doesn't have a high enough jump to follow up and hit with the hammer.

And yes, jeez, i know that hitting someone with the explosion when they're buried is a true combo, but you have to be fast. They don't stay buried for long and you essentially have to read that the cart is actually going to connect so you can react immediately. This is what makes it a gimmick more than anything to me. If you read incorrectly and they shield, you're trying to combo into an otherwise extremely unsafe move for which you might end up losing a stock.

1. I am referencing the video where he misses to follow up. That's his own mistake.

2. Yes and Side-B3 to Up-B is even easier than that. That's exactly my point.

Up-B2 has enough jump until 70%. After that you can JC into it and unlike regular Up-B it does register as a true combo in training AND I tested it with a friend who was spamming air dodge, it does have enough time to combo. Technically it could be DIed but I need to test it with someone who can DI properly (not my friend). The key point is that opponent is still stuck in hitstun when you reach his height, it's a combo.

Also I specify when it's just the hammer by saying: Up-B Hammer.



3. What you're saying is the same as: I know Side-B to U-Air is a combo but you need to react fast otherwise the Kart will move from below the player!

Literally it takes longer for a person to get out of the ground than for the Kart to get out of U-Air range. Trust me, this combo is much easier than you believe.

 

[Chiroz]

I'm honestly not here to prove anything to people who don't even play the character. I just want it to be noted that 3111 is a set that competitive players want to see in the final set.

(and that piercing cannon is horrendous and everyone should feel bad for using it)

You have demonstrated that you haven't even used the other customs at all. I have played Jr for about 3-4 hours and apparently I know more about him than you at a theoretical level even if I can't play him as well as you.

You should always try stuff out instead of ruling it out at first glance.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

1. I am referencing the video where he misses to follow up. That's his own mistake.

2. Yes and Side-B3 to Up-B is even easier than that. That's exactly my point.

Up-B2 has enough jump until 70%. After that you can JC into it and unlike regular Up-B it does register as a true combo in training AND I tested it with a friend who was spamming air dodge, it does have enough time to combo. Technically it could be DIed but I need to test it with someone who can DI properly (not my friend).

Also I specify when it's just the hammer by saying: Up-B Hammer.



3. What you're saying is the same as: I know Side-B to U-Air is a combo but you need to react fast otherwise the Kart will move from below the player!

Literally it takes longer for a person to get out of the ground than for the Kart to get out of U-Air range. Trust me, this combo is much easier than you believe.

To be fair, most people understand what side b > up b means because the up b explosion stops connecting extremely early without customs. My bad though, should have been clearer.

And yeah as I was writing the uair thing it hit me that it's the same thing haha. Point remains relevant since uair is very safe and a missed up b is probably one of the least safe moves in the game. Side b 3 is harder to land in the first place unless it's on a specific punish with the SArmor though, since the hitbox takes like, 6 years to activate.

You have demonstrated that you haven't even used the other customs at all. I have played Jr for about 3-4 hours and apparently I know more about him than you at a theoretical level even if I can't play him as well as you.

You should always try stuff out instead of ruling it out at first glance.

Lmao get over yourself. Customs were legal for the first few months here. I've probably played more with his customs already than you will before you get bored of the character. You haven't proven anything. You've written a bunch of obfuscated and typo laden ("up b into up b"... lol?) posts that honestly do little to help your cause. Try them out in an environment that isn't training mode and then come talk to me. Theory doesn't mean anything when you can't actually pull stuff off in game. There's a ton of "cool" Mechakoopa tech that seems useful in theory but is completely useless in practice.

 

[Chiroz]

To be fair, most people understand what side b > up b means because the up b explosion stops connecting extremely early without customs. My bad though, should have been clearer.

And yeah as I was writing the uair thing it hit me that it's the same thing haha. Point remains relevant since uair is very safe and a missed up b is probably one of the least safe moves in the game. Side b 3 is harder to land in the first place unless it's on a specific punish with the SArmor though, since the hitbox takes like, 6 years to activate.


Lmao get over yourself. Customs were legal for the first few months here. I've probably played more with his customs already than you will before you get bored of the character. You haven't proven anything. You've written a bunch of obfuscated and typo laden posts that honestly do little to help your cause. Try them out in an environment that isn't training mode and then come talk to me.

I have tried it out in an environment that isn't training which is why I went back to default Side-B as specified in a previous post. The fact that Side-B 3 is hard to land and takes away many options does not mean it doesn't have true combos. I am not advocating for Side-B3 I am trying to rid the thread of misinformation, which is what you claim to be doing.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Fine, fair enough. Arguing about this is stupid and I'm sure you agree. You've made some good points and some stuff I disagree with, but at least you're trying. Substantially more thought went into your posts than nearly the entire first page of this thread as a whole. You're not the type of person I need to be debating with. This board needs more lab rats.

Wind cannon is a great tool and it compliments the rest of his vanilla moves extremely nicely, esp down b 1.

 

[Chiroz]

Right now my prefered set is 3121, but I am still testing Up-B2, haven't decided which is better but at least now I know I can still do Side-B to Up-B Hammer even with Up-B2.

I also need to thoroughly test Neutral-B2. I know most people say it's **** and since so many people say it's bad it probably is but I still want to test it myself.



I feel Side-B3 can setup to some devastating combos, but it's just way too hard to land plus it takes away so many movement options from Jr.

Plus the fact that, as you said, can do the exact same combo with Default Side-B anyways (minus the explosion).

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Right now my prefered set is 3121, but I am still testing Up-B2, haven't decided which is better but at least now I know I can still do Side-B to Up-B Hammer even with Up-B2.

I also need to thoroughly test Neutral-B2. I know most people say it's **** and since so many people say it's bad it probably is but I still want to test it myself.



I feel Side-B3 can setup to some devastating combos, but it's just way too hard to land plus it takes away so many movement options from Jr.

Plus the fact that, as you said, can do the exact same combo with Default Side-B anyways (minus the explosion).

The big issue for neutral b 2 is that it's a 4% projectile (maybe 3? It's been a while since I've used it) if you don't charge it and 8% (?) if you do. Has some limited use as the world's worst version of a laser gimp, but damn, that endlag. But if you look at the recommended set, nearly all of them use NB2, which is why I'm so baffled.

And yeah, that's my main issue with side b3. The combos are real but you lose a lot of neutral game options for a hard read punish, which I consider a gimmick, and that has been the crux of my disdain for it.

 

[Chiroz]

The big issue for neutral b 2 is that it's a 4% projectile (maybe 3? It's been a while since I've used it) if you don't charge it and 8% (?) if you do. Has some limited use as the world's worst version of a laser gimp, but damn, that endlag. But if you look at the recommended set, nearly all of them use NB2, which is why I'm so baffled.

And yeah, that's my main issue with side b3. The combos are real but you lose a lot of neutral game options for a hard read punish, which I consider a gimmick, and that has been the crux of my disdain for it.

Yes as you said, once you test it outside of practice mode it becomes apparent all the flaws Side-B3 has. The only thing it has going for it is the backwards charge and the Super Armor which against some specific characters might prove real useful for reaction punishes.

Also that windbox thing is hilarious when done against Marth (you can use Side-B3 as a FLUDD). I don't know against how many characters that actually works but that should be researched by someone. I assume it works on anyone who has a vertical recovery that clips through the stage.



I rule it as useful for specific actions inside specific matchups. Gimping Marth is actually quite a useful tool, but I don't know how realiable it is, I only did it once and it was purely by mistake. (I did it a second time against a Mario who purposely pressed downwards to "hit me" with the Up-B and ended up getting gimped. He had explosive Up-B if that makes any difference).

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Yes as you said, once you test it outside of practice mode it becomes apparent all the flaws Side-B3 has. The only thing it has going for it is the backwards charge and the Super Armor which against some specific characters might prove real useful for reaction punishes.

Also that windbox thing is hilarious when done against Marth (you can use Side-B3 as a FLUDD). I don't know against how many characters that actually works but that should be researched by someone. I assume it works on anyone who has a vertical recovery which clips through the stage.

Yeah I'm going to have to try it in that situation. Might actually make it a valid CP set for characters like that because bjr has issues killing, but absolutely none forcing offstage play. Could be enough to net you 2 stocks alone in a game, but you'd have to somehow outplay him without the cart to get to that point.

 

[Rynhardt]

Lel. it's 100% guaranteed if your reaction is incredibly fast. Note the two gifs he posted and the fact that there is no way he could land an up b in time considering he didn't immediately jump. My point was that if it's so easy and so obviously a guaranteed combo to land then why didn't he even bother following up in those clips?

"If your reaction is incredibly fast" is only on the bjr player, as in, the best bjr is never going to miss it. The first clip happens in this match http://www.twitch.tv/rynnyryn/c/6261229, which I suggest you watch as not much later after that part, I hit him again with it for a kill at 62% and continue landing the full combo. I am not calling this match an exhibition of its full potential but there are many times when I land the full combo. I had been playing bjr in FG before this and played 3223 just the match before, getting used to swapping my specials is something I'm still working on as I swear every time I b-neutral'd here I expected the cannonball. This match was done over wi-fi which makes the combo stupidly difficult to land with any amount of delay but seeing as the most serious tournaments are played in person I have no worries about not landing it. The second gif was one I set up in a local match with my boyfriend simply to show off the super armor of the backwards approach.

 

[Chiroz]

"If your reaction is incredibly fast" is only on the bjr player, as in, the best bjr is never going to miss it. The first clip happens in this match http://www.twitch.tv/rynnyryn/c/6261229, which I suggest you watch as not much later after that part, I hit him again with it for a kill at 62% and continue landing the full combo. I am not calling this match an exhibition of its full potential but there are many times when I land the full combo. I had been playing bjr in FG before this and played 3223 just the match before, getting used to swapping my specials is something I'm still working on as I swear every time I b-neutral'd here I expected the cannonball. This match was done over wi-fi which makes the combo stupidly difficult to land with any amount of delay but seeing as the most serious tournaments are played in person I have no worries about not landing it. The second gif was one I set up in a local match with my boyfriend simply to show off the super armor of the backwards approach.

You can still do the same combo with default side-b and Up-B2 (by using the Up-B2 spike) and still retain all the usefulness of Side-B1 though. Although this combo does require good timing.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

"If your reaction is incredibly fast" is only on the bjr player, as in, the best bjr is never going to miss it. The first clip happens in this match http://www.twitch.tv/rynnyryn/c/6261229, which I suggest you watch as not much later after that part, I hit him again with it for a kill at 62% and continue landing the full combo. I am not calling this match an exhibition of its full potential but there are many times when I land the full combo. I had been playing bjr in FG before this and played 3223 just the match before, getting used to swapping my specials is something I'm still working on as I swear every time I b-neutral'd here I expected the cannonball. This match was done over wi-fi which makes the combo stupidly difficult to land with any amount of delay but seeing as the most serious tournaments are played in person I have no worries about not landing it. The second gif was one I set up in a local match with my boyfriend simply to show off the super armor of the backwards approach.

I haven't watched this yet (on data ATM) but my point about being fast is that you HAVE to make the read and have faith it works out otherwise. I'm not saying its too difficult to pull off. There's some near frame perfect stuff I've incorporated into my gameplay, just that so many factors need to line up vs a good player (and any good player who has bjr mu exp knows the easiest way to stuff out a vanilla side b is with a retreating aerial, already, making landing the bury even harder) in order to give you the chance to drop your explosion in the first place. This is definitely a combo that can work (as I'm sure you've shown in the video you posted) but I don't know if I'm okay with limiting so many of his other already limited options, personally.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
Bowser Jr:

3, 1, 1/2, 1/3, niche 1XXX, X2XX, X3XX, XXX2

3111, 3113, 3121, 3123
niche: 1112, 3213, 3313, 3223, 3323, 1211

Bowser Jr. was a tricky case; there was not a lot of enthusiasm from his board but other sources have shown incredibly high interest in his customs. I attempted to cover the options Bowser Jr. players clearly wanted with the top line options and fill in various other options that seemed likely to garner interest or address specific match-ups with the more niche sets (like Impatient Mechakoopa, while clearly bad in general, is very useful against Rosalina and Villager). Feel free to let me know if something else would be of more use at any point.

 

[W.A.C.]

If all ten spots are going to be taken up, how are people supposed to be able to import their own during tournaments? Also, why is there only one X22X setup and why is the giant Mechakoopa paired with it?

 

[BlurB]

If all ten spots are going to be taken up, how are people supposed to be able to import their own during tournaments? Also, why is there only one X22X setup and why is the giant Mechakoopa paired with it?

During EVO - at least this time - they are not allowing people to import their own custom movesets because of time constraints. That's why it's imperative that we find 10 different options that cover the widest range of playstyles possible.

 

[BlurB]

Not sure if I should get involved with this since I definitely need to spend more time testing with people, but my friend used a fun strategy I hadn't seen before

Using Giant Mechakoopa, he deploys it, grabs it, moves towards the opponent, and while he is shielding the explosion actually reaches outside BJ. So basically he would bait a grab and by the time his opponent got close the koopa blows up, not hurting BJ. I thought that was fun.

Other random thoughts that are just my opinion:
I find impatient koopa to be really hard to utilize. If I miss the stage completely it takes far too long to explode so I can use one again.
I find the B1 Cannon to help me a lot, actually. To help edgeguard, I lay down a mechakoopa and immediately press b after I jump. When I time it right, they will have to shield for the koopa to go through them, then the cannon coming down on them, then the koopa returning once it turns around. If they have held shield through all of that I can usually land a grab.
I think two slow moving projectiles, one on the ground and one in the air can limit their options really well.
The lag on the fast cannon simply makes it unusable for me. But I'm intrigued to see if anyone can make some good use out of it.
I agree that Grounding dash just doesn't have the options that default Side B does, but dang I've gotten a few great down smashes from a buried opponent. I personally think it should be in at least one or two custom sets for those who want to try and exploit it. But that's my opinion.

Edit: I'm not going to EVO, unfortunately. But I would love to play you guys sometime.