Nado-spamming doesn't really require frame-timing to beat or not beat.
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Official Stage Legality Discussion
- Thread starter Amazing Ampharos
- Start date
- Status
infomon
Smash Scientist
Yes it very often does, depending on a number of factors (matchup, the amount of stale on the tornado, whether or not its hitlag is getting delayed by hitting an obstacle, etc.).
and since when is 'nado-spamming unbeatable?
bow master1
Smash Apprentice
wat r ya talking about?u guys r confusing me.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Tornado spam on Luigi's Mansion.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
The point of planking on LM isn't to run out the time. Calling it ledge-camping would be better. By the time you get past the MK doing it, olol the mansion is back up again, and then tornado tornado tornado tornado tornado.
And again, this is not the only reason for the stages ban although it is one of the major ones. With no effort, an MK can literally spam B and **** you with tornado because of the ceilings. Snake's probably have an easier time beating it because they can pull out nades in 1 frame. But lots of characters like Donkey Kong, D3, Falco...most of the characters can't get past the blatant tornado spam. You hit the ceiling, fall on the floor, get caught in another tornado, rinse and repeat.
Plus, there's easily more characters with this same type of strategy. Oli can just grab and upsmash a ton without you being able to do anything. In general, uptilts/smashes and some unique attacks are unevenly good here.
Plus, there's a bit of circle camping (not as prevalent as like Hyrule circle camping but it's still there), and the whole DI into living thing. It's already been shown that DK among other characters can literally live to 999% if they camp in the building. Plus, the general fact that one can live to 200% if they just DI and hit the ceiling, without even teching (although that gets you to live longer) is also a subjective problem to some. You could be at 200% and have a much easier time killing your opponent who's at 50%.
Basically this stage isn't good and really is banworthy. Also, Thio and I tested yesterday that water-camping at Pirate Ship tips the scales way too heavily (bombs are also lol) so that's just reconfirming my belief that it's banworthy too. We're going to test Distant Planet soon (I'm under the belief that at worst, it's CP/Banned, although IMO it's really CP).
I can go more into either of these three stages if anyone feels like it.
And again, this is not the only reason for the stages ban although it is one of the major ones. With no effort, an MK can literally spam B and **** you with tornado because of the ceilings. Snake's probably have an easier time beating it because they can pull out nades in 1 frame. But lots of characters like Donkey Kong, D3, Falco...most of the characters can't get past the blatant tornado spam. You hit the ceiling, fall on the floor, get caught in another tornado, rinse and repeat.
Plus, there's easily more characters with this same type of strategy. Oli can just grab and upsmash a ton without you being able to do anything. In general, uptilts/smashes and some unique attacks are unevenly good here.
Plus, there's a bit of circle camping (not as prevalent as like Hyrule circle camping but it's still there), and the whole DI into living thing. It's already been shown that DK among other characters can literally live to 999% if they camp in the building. Plus, the general fact that one can live to 200% if they just DI and hit the ceiling, without even teching (although that gets you to live longer) is also a subjective problem to some. You could be at 200% and have a much easier time killing your opponent who's at 50%.
Basically this stage isn't good and really is banworthy. Also, Thio and I tested yesterday that water-camping at Pirate Ship tips the scales way too heavily (bombs are also lol) so that's just reconfirming my belief that it's banworthy too. We're going to test Distant Planet soon (I'm under the belief that at worst, it's CP/Banned, although IMO it's really CP).
I can go more into either of these three stages if anyone feels like it.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Wifi only helps in gaining personal experience. Serious "proof" will never come from it - ever.
Saying that, I'd like to play Thio too.
Saying that, I'd like to play Thio too.
infomon
Smash Scientist
Why didn't you tech? Why aren't you DI'ing? What are you doing in the deadtime between tornados?
So if MK and Oli are both broken on this stage, then what happens in Oli vs. MK? I guess they have a reasonable fight. And "easily more characters" too?
Hmm. So you're telling me that it's easy to wrack up damage, but difficult to actually land KO's -- which go to whoever's doing a better job at controlling the stage. So perhaps this balances the tornado-spam strategy? Maybe this stage is just different, not bad.
Wait a minute, how are you killing anyone at 50%?
How does that make any sense? Sure it's a good tactic in many matchups, unless your opponent knows how to deal with it in which case it's extremely risky for the TLink. "Tipping the scales" seems more about a few bad matchups (which is normal to expect from many matchup/stage combinations in this game), and tipping the scales toward the person who's better at the "water-camping minigame"; ie. the person who's better.
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ Someone press your buttons Kamikaze*? It's not everyday to find people disliking what stage is banned like you just did. O_o ☆
CR4SH
Smash Lord
Norfair should not be in the c/b area. The ONLY thing slightly sketchy about norfair is the random fire plumes, and those are entirely avoidable. It creates completely reasonable advantages for many characters due to it's very unique stage setup. Norfair should be legal in every tournament.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
Norfair is in c/b because of the ledge-play that's arguably overpowered for some characters, although I haven't actually experienced it well first-hand so I can't talk about it.
@Infzy. If you tech, you get caught back into the tornado. And have you tried DIing out of tornado on any stage? You can get out, but you don't go far; in the cramped space of LM, it makes it easy enough to follow up with another or the exact same tornado. Just test it out; MK and Oli in this stage just start with many, many more options. Being on bottom floor essentially means death.
Also, how exactly do you get past water camping, instead of just saying, "You can get past it if you're good"
@Infzy. If you tech, you get caught back into the tornado. And have you tried DIing out of tornado on any stage? You can get out, but you don't go far; in the cramped space of LM, it makes it easy enough to follow up with another or the exact same tornado. Just test it out; MK and Oli in this stage just start with many, many more options. Being on bottom floor essentially means death.
Also, how exactly do you get past water camping, instead of just saying, "You can get past it if you're good"
Linkshot
Smash Hero
I'm not exactly sure how to get past water camping, as I'm the one that actually camps, but I've had a few people completely out-do me. Water camping is a unique strategy that isn't seen much, and, as such, most players don't know its weaknesses.
Jamnt0ast
Smash Journeyman
Norfair should be banned, and this should be a sub forum or a list to thegality of certain stages. It is too overwhelming to discuss them all in one place.
Planking works with several characters because of frame timing, not because of skill. There are several characters who can get to the ledge in such a way that they can never be hit. ZSS can actually do this with her downB, and it's usually the way that ZSS mains tend to spend the time that an opponent has invincible after a KO.
The issue with water camping / planking is that while they are, in theory, beatable, they remove skill from the equation in such a way that it can suggest equality among players who have a huge skill gap. Seeing as tourneys are supposed to reward the best players with the cash prizes, stages that allow such inequality to become balanced with little effort involved should never be used competitively.
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
Then bad matchups should also be banned, because they do the same thing.
CHAOSvsORDER
Smash Journeyman
-Concerning Luigi's Mansion-
At the start of the match, meta knight is far away enough that you are able to get out and start attacking the top area of the stage. Just stay there and the attacks will break it. After that, you can break the bottom half. It is a handicap, but it's better than staying in a tornado and complaining about it.
-Concerning water camping's legitimacy in tournaments-
If there is a huge gap in skill, there is NO way the lesser player can win. Look at it this way: First round goes to BF. Player A(the better skilled) wins over Player B. Player B CPs Pirate Ship. Player B wins because of the (arguably strategic) way he used of the stage. Player A CPs FD and wins the set. Even if it were best 3/5, you can't go CP a stage you already won on. If you really fear water camping, you can use your stage ban on it before your opponent CPs.
I have played Linkshot on Pirate Ship and I found that patience is the way to deal with it. He can't stay in the water forever.
At the start of the match, meta knight is far away enough that you are able to get out and start attacking the top area of the stage. Just stay there and the attacks will break it. After that, you can break the bottom half. It is a handicap, but it's better than staying in a tornado and complaining about it.
-Concerning water camping's legitimacy in tournaments-
If there is a huge gap in skill, there is NO way the lesser player can win. Look at it this way: First round goes to BF. Player A(the better skilled) wins over Player B. Player B CPs Pirate Ship. Player B wins because of the (arguably strategic) way he used of the stage. Player A CPs FD and wins the set. Even if it were best 3/5, you can't go CP a stage you already won on. If you really fear water camping, you can use your stage ban on it before your opponent CPs.
I have played Linkshot on Pirate Ship and I found that patience is the way to deal with it. He can't stay in the water forever.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Why the heck is water camping being brought up yet again as a "legitimate" reason to ban a stage? Enough already.
It doesn't win matches, nor will Pirate Ship EVER be banned. (it got less votes to be banned this time around then the first time). Stop wasting your time with such a pointless topic. It would be like me trying to get Yoshi Island banned because of the blast-off glitch that affects Ike here (and maybe Kirby, haven't tested it with him). Neither stage is ever going to be banned, get over it and move on.
Anyhow, with water camping: the better player will win unless the better player has never seen water camping before which is obviously not a valid excuse for getting stages banned. I've lost to both a Falco and a Snake as Ike while attempting to water camp. And those characters SUCK against people in the water. Harshly. However, both people know how to time their attacks in order to win, and they were better players. You have to jump when in the water in order to keep yourself from drowning. You can not act upon landing in the water as your character has to come back up. Both times they punished me during that phase. And yes, I do know how to water camp, I do use Ike after all. It simply does not work against better players that know what they are doing.
Heck, water camping isn't even as safe as planking, where you at least get invincibility frames doing it. It's a more hazardous, less rewarding, switching invincibility frames with frames were you can't defend yourself, lesser form of planking that can only occur on two stage. Two. And on both stages it's IMPOSSIBLE to water camp the whole time. If you attempt to do so, you will get left behind by the stage and die.
It's a non-issue, and the stages will NEVER be banned. Ever. Not happening. Look at the votes, realize the truth, and flipping move on already and stop whining about things you can't even use to win a whole set on it's own. You have a better chance of getting MK banned then Pirate Ship and Delfino banned, and we all know how likely that is going to happen. >_> Go complain about something like D3's standing grab or something that actually overcomes skill, and not just ignorance of a feature in two perfectly legal stages.
It doesn't win matches, nor will Pirate Ship EVER be banned. (it got less votes to be banned this time around then the first time). Stop wasting your time with such a pointless topic. It would be like me trying to get Yoshi Island banned because of the blast-off glitch that affects Ike here (and maybe Kirby, haven't tested it with him). Neither stage is ever going to be banned, get over it and move on.
Anyhow, with water camping: the better player will win unless the better player has never seen water camping before which is obviously not a valid excuse for getting stages banned. I've lost to both a Falco and a Snake as Ike while attempting to water camp. And those characters SUCK against people in the water. Harshly. However, both people know how to time their attacks in order to win, and they were better players. You have to jump when in the water in order to keep yourself from drowning. You can not act upon landing in the water as your character has to come back up. Both times they punished me during that phase. And yes, I do know how to water camp, I do use Ike after all. It simply does not work against better players that know what they are doing.
Heck, water camping isn't even as safe as planking, where you at least get invincibility frames doing it. It's a more hazardous, less rewarding, switching invincibility frames with frames were you can't defend yourself, lesser form of planking that can only occur on two stage. Two. And on both stages it's IMPOSSIBLE to water camp the whole time. If you attempt to do so, you will get left behind by the stage and die.
It's a non-issue, and the stages will NEVER be banned. Ever. Not happening. Look at the votes, realize the truth, and flipping move on already and stop whining about things you can't even use to win a whole set on it's own. You have a better chance of getting MK banned then Pirate Ship and Delfino banned, and we all know how likely that is going to happen. >_> Go complain about something like D3's standing grab or something that actually overcomes skill, and not just ignorance of a feature in two perfectly legal stages.
Kain6th
Smash Ace
Here's a question.
What do you think it says about a player who can not only kick his opponents ***, but completely avoid any stage hazard flawlessly and even uses the stage to their advantage like knocking someone into that giant wall of lava in Norfair?
Would you think this player is just a pro or is it more the stages helping him?
What do you think it says about a player who can not only kick his opponents ***, but completely avoid any stage hazard flawlessly and even uses the stage to their advantage like knocking someone into that giant wall of lava in Norfair?
Would you think this player is just a pro or is it more the stages helping him?
anhkheg
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2009
- Messages
- 8
Off-hand Id say its sort of a mix of both.
The player is obviously good in his own right, as im assuming "kicking his opponents ***" applies to neutral stages. But he just seems to have a better feel with the more out there stages, you used Norfair as an example.
As an Oli main Ive practiced alot on stages like Norfair specifically to get a handle on what the satge is doing when 'X' happens. By knowing what a stage is doing when it changes, it makes spacing and comboing much easier much sooner after the change (be it Frigate's flip, Norfair's lava wall, or Pkm Stadium field changes)
The player is obviously good in his own right, as im assuming "kicking his opponents ***" applies to neutral stages. But he just seems to have a better feel with the more out there stages, you used Norfair as an example.
As an Oli main Ive practiced alot on stages like Norfair specifically to get a handle on what the satge is doing when 'X' happens. By knowing what a stage is doing when it changes, it makes spacing and comboing much easier much sooner after the change (be it Frigate's flip, Norfair's lava wall, or Pkm Stadium field changes)
darkNES386
Smash Lord
Yeah... um... water camping? Seriously?
Pirate Ship... see this. Let's not forget that the canons fire everywhere, you can get crushed by the ship and the small boat actually can put the other player in an even better position to attack the "water camper."
Japes: The water is a hazard, almost never a good thing unless you use it on the right side to quickly get across to the left. There's also klaptraps who can take you out.
Delfino, the stage changes so the water is temporary, just wait and punish when you can.
Summit - the big fish eats you, clearly being in the water is not supposed to be a good thing (according to the developers of Brawl) (just to further prove my point).
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Summit water is moot. Summit is banned for the circle-camping aspect.
I'd like the point out that Ike is actually awful at water camping. He can't really do anything once his opponents who are actually fast get alongside him in the water. If you want to test how powerful it really is, Mr. Game & Watch, Meta Knight, and Jigglypuff are the actual best characters at it.
With Mr. Game & Watch, his up special is actually hard to beat out (unlike Ike's), and he is fast and good in the air otherwise (also unlike Ike). When the rock comes, he can just glitch inside of it, removing one of the primary "disruptions" from his strategy (though even Ike can just get in the water to the left of the rock and make an Aether wall there). If you think the ship going in the air is actually going to stop him, you're nuts. I wait to jump out until the last minute and get on the ledge, using my full ledge invincibility. I probably touch down on the stage once and avoid you as best I can. Then I jump out over the stage in the low gravity and up special pretty high and let my parachute carry me down safely for a while either to the ledge if I went too early or more likely back into the water. I CAN stay in the water essentially forever. If you can't come out and beat me in the water, you lose. I am 100% willing to wait to win by time if I'm up.
I'm going to be looking for more games on this stage in the future, but it seems pretty obvious that this is degenerate in a way planking isn't even close to being (planking being something that obviously should not be banned). You aren't even particularly close to the stage when water stalling which gives the guy in the water a ton of time to react to what you are doing, and you have tons less enforced lag. No characters can combo you across a ledge into an instant kill ship bow or off a "swim off" either. On a ledge, you are at extreme risk if they do manage to hit you; in the water, you're not really at much risk at all unless they are from a pretty narrow subset of characters.
Appealing to the status quo (it receiving mostly votes to allow it) doesn't really prove anything; it's actually just plain baffling that Pirate Ship gets the support it does, especially more than stages that seem pretty obviously better than it (Distant Planet, Norfair, Green Greens, Yoshi's Island [Melee], Port Town Aero Dive, Corneria, Onett). This isn't even a "ban everything" rant or anything close; I want almost every even plausibly legal stage legal, but even still Pirate Ship seems obviously awful.
Also, with water stalling, comparing the tactic in any way whatsoever to what you can do on Delfino Plaza, a stage that has water for incredibly brief amounts of time, is kinda silly. It's like equating the walk-off on the Halberd with the ones on the Bridge of Eldin; they are really that close in terms of how much they matter. The tactic is really only worth talking about in the context of Pirate Ship, and I do confess that beyond being overwhelmingly obvious to me based on my experiences I don't have any direct evidence, but at the same time I don't see any evidence that people seriously try to abuse it in a competent way.
I suppose I should end with this question. If you are using Mr. Game & Watch, Meta Knight, Jigglypuff, Toon Link, or Ness, what is your motivation, if you have a lead on Pirate Ship and are not matched up against an opponent who is especially good at countering water stalling, to do anything but hang out in the water? What advantages does being on the stage provide you over being in the water? I see no real loss to being in the water; removing ground moves from the game entirely seems pretty cool for those characters.
With Mr. Game & Watch, his up special is actually hard to beat out (unlike Ike's), and he is fast and good in the air otherwise (also unlike Ike). When the rock comes, he can just glitch inside of it, removing one of the primary "disruptions" from his strategy (though even Ike can just get in the water to the left of the rock and make an Aether wall there). If you think the ship going in the air is actually going to stop him, you're nuts. I wait to jump out until the last minute and get on the ledge, using my full ledge invincibility. I probably touch down on the stage once and avoid you as best I can. Then I jump out over the stage in the low gravity and up special pretty high and let my parachute carry me down safely for a while either to the ledge if I went too early or more likely back into the water. I CAN stay in the water essentially forever. If you can't come out and beat me in the water, you lose. I am 100% willing to wait to win by time if I'm up.
I'm going to be looking for more games on this stage in the future, but it seems pretty obvious that this is degenerate in a way planking isn't even close to being (planking being something that obviously should not be banned). You aren't even particularly close to the stage when water stalling which gives the guy in the water a ton of time to react to what you are doing, and you have tons less enforced lag. No characters can combo you across a ledge into an instant kill ship bow or off a "swim off" either. On a ledge, you are at extreme risk if they do manage to hit you; in the water, you're not really at much risk at all unless they are from a pretty narrow subset of characters.
Appealing to the status quo (it receiving mostly votes to allow it) doesn't really prove anything; it's actually just plain baffling that Pirate Ship gets the support it does, especially more than stages that seem pretty obviously better than it (Distant Planet, Norfair, Green Greens, Yoshi's Island [Melee], Port Town Aero Dive, Corneria, Onett). This isn't even a "ban everything" rant or anything close; I want almost every even plausibly legal stage legal, but even still Pirate Ship seems obviously awful.
Also, with water stalling, comparing the tactic in any way whatsoever to what you can do on Delfino Plaza, a stage that has water for incredibly brief amounts of time, is kinda silly. It's like equating the walk-off on the Halberd with the ones on the Bridge of Eldin; they are really that close in terms of how much they matter. The tactic is really only worth talking about in the context of Pirate Ship, and I do confess that beyond being overwhelmingly obvious to me based on my experiences I don't have any direct evidence, but at the same time I don't see any evidence that people seriously try to abuse it in a competent way.
I suppose I should end with this question. If you are using Mr. Game & Watch, Meta Knight, Jigglypuff, Toon Link, or Ness, what is your motivation, if you have a lead on Pirate Ship and are not matched up against an opponent who is especially good at countering water stalling, to do anything but hang out in the water? What advantages does being on the stage provide you over being in the water? I see no real loss to being in the water; removing ground moves from the game entirely seems pretty cool for those characters.
If you see canons, upB straight out of the water to the ledge. Also, you don't camp on the right side of the stage, you camp on the left. If you actually knew what you were talking about you'd know why it's such an easy position to defend.
If you get crushed by the ship, you're doing it very, very wrong.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
I keep switching my opinion on water camping.
I'd really enjoy information on how to beat water camping beyond "a good player can beat it"...
I'd really enjoy information on how to beat water camping beyond "a good player can beat it"...
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
Once me and Thio get our matches in, you'll have a video of how to beat it. You'll also have videos of how to beat tornado spamming on Luigi's and whatever the hell strategy he thinks is broken on Norfair.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
But it'd still be nice to know these things beforehand in some form of text.
Because really, when someone voices a "broken" strategy and someone else says, "Good players can get past it," it doesn't convince me nor anyone else, because it's just an extremely vague statement. I've seen much more compelling arguments from the side that wants to ban Pirate Ship (AA, Thio) and I have first hand experience. And all I've seen from the side that wants to keep it in is, "If you're good enough, you can beat it."
Because really, when someone voices a "broken" strategy and someone else says, "Good players can get past it," it doesn't convince me nor anyone else, because it's just an extremely vague statement. I've seen much more compelling arguments from the side that wants to ban Pirate Ship (AA, Thio) and I have first hand experience. And all I've seen from the side that wants to keep it in is, "If you're good enough, you can beat it."
darkNES386
Smash Lord
I've never faced off against water stalling. It seems pretty absurd though that it would not be considered stalling. I'm sure it's frustrating to face off against.
I've seen the footage of Game and Watch in the rock and being underwater forever (which is clearly stalling). Floating in the air for a long time is also considered stalling. Anytime you put yourself in a position where the opponent clearly can't attack you or (could try but utterly fail ->Sonic HA under a stage) it's stalling. Stalling tactics are banned. A broken tactic bans a stage. Water stalling isn't considered broken yet I guess.
I've seen the footage of Game and Watch in the rock and being underwater forever (which is clearly stalling). Floating in the air for a long time is also considered stalling. Anytime you put yourself in a position where the opponent clearly can't attack you or (could try but utterly fail ->Sonic HA under a stage) it's stalling. Stalling tactics are banned. A broken tactic bans a stage. Water stalling isn't considered broken yet I guess.
Mythic02
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2009
- Messages
- 210
I agree with darkNES, We should ban Watercamping first. If someone is in the water the entire game it is stalling. Sonic's HA stall can be attacked. It's just really hard to do. Same thing with Watercamping. Say 15 seconds of water camping and the Tourney official can punish the offender. It allows more than enough time to get back to the stage while avoiding opponents.
If it isn't banned then pirate ship should be.
If it isn't banned then pirate ship should be.
It's not stalling because it's not indefinite (except that thing where Mr. Game & Watch is under the rudder of the ship; that should probably be called stalling). The rock ends. Floating high up in the air isn't really that long of a time; it's just long enough to stall out the "ship in the air" transformation (which is actually a very short amount of time). Water stalling itself isn't really stalling at all; you can jump down and fight in the water. You might even be able to put up a good fight (it all depends on your character). It's really more like Sheik's chain. Assuming the stage doesn't offer ways around it, Sheik can just spin her chain and totally lock down Ganondorf. He can probably hit her if he's amazingly perfect, but in general, he just has no viable approaches here. Is Sheik stalling? Obviously not. She's just standing in one place using a defensive move that happens to be impenetrable in that matchup. Luckily, Ganondorf is a terrible character so we don't worry too much about him being rendered useless (he wouldn't have been worth using even without this). Water stalling likewise is basically just sitting in place abusing a defensive move (or perhaps series of moves). However, it is auto-win in a lot more matchups, many being against characters who were actually not total garbage. Banning the water stalling itself would be pretty ridiculous (What are you even banning? Is it hanging out in the water?). The best solution is to just ban Pirate Ship.
Marth Xero
Smash Cadet
Noooooo
Not Corneria </3 Now what am I supposed to counter with gnw, Green Greens? (ugh)
Not Corneria </3 Now what am I supposed to counter with gnw, Green Greens? (ugh)
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
I'm just going to nip this now:
It's not water stalling.
It's water camping, like AA explained. We don't need to revolve around pointless discussion about stalling rules when it can't be applied here.
It's not water stalling.
It's water camping, like AA explained. We don't need to revolve around pointless discussion about stalling rules when it can't be applied here.
darkNES386
Smash Lord
I never said ban water camping... I said ban anything that breaks the game. Game and watch chilling under the rudder until the ship gets pushed up... followed by game and watch floating high safely and then repeating definitely qualifies for me as broken... and it's not even as hard as dimensional cape to execute from my understanding of it.
Ranor469
Smash Apprentice
I think pictochat should be banned, some characters' general strategies are to stay in the air alot and this stage can cause a lot of damage to them or kill them. Also it can **** up recoveries and basically you may lose your stock if you cant get back the way you wanted to and are forced to choose between dieing from the stage or dieing from your opponent edge guarding.
I think pirate ship should be banned for multiple reasons. First off there is the annoying part when there is low gravity and it becomes a totally different game (its also on PS2). There is also the lever that will fling you sometimes to your death and one of the scenarios is when the ship passes an island that continuously shoots bombs at you. They are too random and may kill anyone who is being comboed or who is comboing. If you think that the person who is comboing can escape, then in order to escape the bomb they have to lose their combo and let the other person break free.
Maybe my opinions dont matter (they prolly dont) but I just feel like these stages dont promote the best brawl playing and for the better brawl player to win. It may use some sort of other game mixed in with brawl, but its not totally brawl. Just my two cents.
I think pirate ship should be banned for multiple reasons. First off there is the annoying part when there is low gravity and it becomes a totally different game (its also on PS2). There is also the lever that will fling you sometimes to your death and one of the scenarios is when the ship passes an island that continuously shoots bombs at you. They are too random and may kill anyone who is being comboed or who is comboing. If you think that the person who is comboing can escape, then in order to escape the bomb they have to lose their combo and let the other person break free.
Maybe my opinions dont matter (they prolly dont) but I just feel like these stages dont promote the best brawl playing and for the better brawl player to win. It may use some sort of other game mixed in with brawl, but its not totally brawl. Just my two cents.
Your opinion matters as much as you are able to support it. Having joined just this month with only 30 posts isn't what matters.
However, I think you don't back yourself up very well. Since when does PictoChat cause a lot of damage to characters who stay in the air? Just don't stay over where the arrows can be drawn, and don't stay up in the air off the stage (i.e. where the side spikes get drawn). If you are so unlucky as to have fire drawn on top of you (and do remember when PictoChat draws is ultimately predictable based on the previous drawing), it does 1% per hit and should be pretty negligible.
As per screwing recoveries, the only drawings that really screw recoveries are the line, side spikes, and wind, and then you really do have to be just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Skilled play and stage knowledge really do negate this. PictoChat is all around a really exceptionally fair stage; I don't feel as though it's a good stage to target with the ban hammer.
I do agree with you that Pirate Ship should be banned, but I think your reasoning is off. The catapult only flings you to death if you suck at DI, for instance (though you have to be pretty braindead to be unintentionally hit by it in the first place). I don't think the low gravity changes the game as much as you think; it's definitely significant when it's in effect (which isn't very long on Pirate Ship), but if you are experienced in dealing with it, you can do about the same things as before. As per the bombs, let's be brutally honest. Brawl doesn't have long enough combos for what you describe to really be an issue. They do disrupt pressure situations and do altogether too much damage, but they're ultimately forgivable (though definitely a strike against the stage). I'd say the water being there inviting you to camp in it is a lot more along the lines of "a totally different game".
On the note of what is an isn't Brawl, Brawl is not something we decide what it is. All 42 stages are a part of Brawl; Brawl is just the game on the disc. I think it's a bad perspective to decide only some parts of the game we bought qualify as Brawl and other parts quality as something else entirely. We definitely have to ban a lot of things, and in other cases we have to decide among settings and exclude a lot. Still, I think it's better to say "some things that come default on the disc are sadly incompatible with high level competitive play" instead of saying "some things that come on the disc are just not Brawl".
Welcome to the topic, by the way.
Anyway, to address darkNES386, yeah, the under the rudder thing (which I am pretty sure anyone with a plunging down aerial can do, not just Mr. Game & Watch) is something that would qualify as stalling and thus would be independently ban-worthy. If that were the only problem with Pirate Ship, I'd agree that Pirate Ship should be legal. However, camping in the water in ways that don't involve getting yourself stuck under the rudder doesn't really qualify as stalling, and I'm pretty sure it's still broken.
However, I think you don't back yourself up very well. Since when does PictoChat cause a lot of damage to characters who stay in the air? Just don't stay over where the arrows can be drawn, and don't stay up in the air off the stage (i.e. where the side spikes get drawn). If you are so unlucky as to have fire drawn on top of you (and do remember when PictoChat draws is ultimately predictable based on the previous drawing), it does 1% per hit and should be pretty negligible.
As per screwing recoveries, the only drawings that really screw recoveries are the line, side spikes, and wind, and then you really do have to be just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Skilled play and stage knowledge really do negate this. PictoChat is all around a really exceptionally fair stage; I don't feel as though it's a good stage to target with the ban hammer.
I do agree with you that Pirate Ship should be banned, but I think your reasoning is off. The catapult only flings you to death if you suck at DI, for instance (though you have to be pretty braindead to be unintentionally hit by it in the first place). I don't think the low gravity changes the game as much as you think; it's definitely significant when it's in effect (which isn't very long on Pirate Ship), but if you are experienced in dealing with it, you can do about the same things as before. As per the bombs, let's be brutally honest. Brawl doesn't have long enough combos for what you describe to really be an issue. They do disrupt pressure situations and do altogether too much damage, but they're ultimately forgivable (though definitely a strike against the stage). I'd say the water being there inviting you to camp in it is a lot more along the lines of "a totally different game".
On the note of what is an isn't Brawl, Brawl is not something we decide what it is. All 42 stages are a part of Brawl; Brawl is just the game on the disc. I think it's a bad perspective to decide only some parts of the game we bought qualify as Brawl and other parts quality as something else entirely. We definitely have to ban a lot of things, and in other cases we have to decide among settings and exclude a lot. Still, I think it's better to say "some things that come default on the disc are sadly incompatible with high level competitive play" instead of saying "some things that come on the disc are just not Brawl".
Welcome to the topic, by the way.
Anyway, to address darkNES386, yeah, the under the rudder thing (which I am pretty sure anyone with a plunging down aerial can do, not just Mr. Game & Watch) is something that would qualify as stalling and thus would be independently ban-worthy. If that were the only problem with Pirate Ship, I'd agree that Pirate Ship should be legal. However, camping in the water in ways that don't involve getting yourself stuck under the rudder doesn't really qualify as stalling, and I'm pretty sure it's still broken.
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
The drawings have varying durations, and it's always drawn so much time after the previous one "ended". I don't have the exact mechanics down, but I do know the timing (down to the frame) of when a drawing appears depends on which drawing the preceeding one is.
Which drawings it chooses is mostly non-predictable. The only sure thing is that it won't repeat drawings until every one has been used (and it doesn't have time to use all 27 drawings in an 8 minute match).
Which drawings it chooses is mostly non-predictable. The only sure thing is that it won't repeat drawings until every one has been used (and it doesn't have time to use all 27 drawings in an 8 minute match).
Linkshot
Smash Hero
I was playing against my cousin on Pirate Ship today. He uses Olimar, and the ship splashed down into the water as he tethered, and ended up hanging under the water, undisturbed. o.O At the back of the ship, btw.
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