Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Crom]

Frigate Orpheon should be banned http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-cKOk4Ky_k

That shouldn't be happening on any tournament legal stage.

Was plenty of warning, and if Snake had kept his head, he could have gotten out of that.

Yeah Snake could have, but what about characters with poor recoveries? That would have screwed Ike over.

I wouldn't want something like that to ruin a perfectly good tournament match, whether it resulted in my victory or loss. That map is just lame

The windmill isn't game breaking, and Battlefield had horrible edges but it was still neutral.

As for Pokemon 1, I guess for the most part it is neutral, but it's pretty annoying now.

I'm not used to anything annoying being on nuetral/random, so it just feels like it should be a counterpick now. I was always fine with battlefield, the edges were kind of bad but you just had be careful. It didn't have anything that got in your way and interrupted the fight like that windmill on pokemon.

 

[Mic_128]

Yeah Snake could have, but what about characters with poor recoveries? That would have screwed Ike over.

If Ike was in the same position and kept his head, he could have dropped down a bit, moving to the left, doublejumped, still moving left, dropped down a bit and then up'b'd.

 

[King Zeal]

My pics are considered meeting these criteria.

1) Stages with low-percentage/instant kills are banned (ex: Jungle Japes; The Summit).
2) Massive stages are banned (Hyrule Temple; New Pork City).
3) Stages with hazards that become the primary concern of the match are banned (ex: Norfair; WarioWare)..
4) Stages with character advantages are counter-picked. (ex: Bridge of Eldin; Pokemon Stadium 2)
5) Stages with non-lethal hazards are counter-picked.

Neutral
(I think everyone agrees on these, so maybe we should stop listing them.)
Final Destination
Battlefield
Delfino Plaza
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege

Counter-Pick
Pokemon Stadium
Rainbow Cruise
Green Greens
Corneria
Onett
Yoshi's Island
Mario Circuit
Luigi's Mansion
Skyworld
Port Town Aero Dive
Halberd
Pictochat
Pirate Ship
Frigate Orpheon
Green Hill Zone
Hanenbow
Bridge of Eldin
Shadow Moses Island
Pokemon Stadium 2

Notes: I didn't put any of these in the ban list unless I had a good reason. As someone else pointed out, banning stuff outright will prevent a decent metagame from developing. I see no reason to ban either Bridge of Eldin nor Pokemon Stadium 2. Someone made the point "When the bridge is broken, it's a camp-fest the character with the best projectile wins". That's assuming the other character doesn't know how to block. Pokemon Stadium 1 was a camp-fest at times in Melee, too. That didn't stop it from being legal.

Banned
Jungle Japes
75m
Hyrule Temple
Brinstar
Big Blue
WarioWare
Mushroomy Kingdom
Rumble Falls
New Pork City
Distant Planet
Spear Pillar
Mario Bros.
Norfair
Flat Zone 2
Summit

Notes: The most debatable entries here (I believe) are Distant Planet, Jungle Japes, Brinstar, and Flat Zone 2. The reason I added these to my ban-list, however, is because both Jungle Japes and Distant Planet have an instant-death hazard that is very easy to fall into (the waterslide). And both Flat Zone 2 and Brinstar have unpredictable hazards that could potentially disrupt a match.

 

[Devildigimon]

So is there ever going to be a CONCRETE ruling on the stages cause I have a tournament I need to run in less than 3 weeks and I need official ruling. Also what about stages for 2v2. Any word on what's legal or not?

 

[King Zeal]

I say that you use your best judgment and let everyone know how it turns out. I don't see how else Brawl will develop a decent metagame.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Someone made the point "When the bridge is broken, it's a camp-fest the character with the best projectile wins". That's assuming the other character doesn't know how to block. Pokemon Stadium 1 was a camp-fest at times in Melee, too. That didn't stop it from being legal.

Stadium 1's camp fest was a temporary stalemate that didn't favor either character, not a projectile war that favors Pit and Falco only.

Don't forget Eldin is also a giant walkoff, just asking for Dedede to CG.

I'd be willing to test the stage in a tournament scene, though. It's pretty important to allow stages that are borderline broken in theory to see if they even are broken.

 

[King Zeal]

Stadium 1's camp fest was a temporary stalemate that didn't favor either character, not a projectile war that favors Pit and Falco only.

Don't forget Eldin is also a giant walkoff, just asking for Dedede to CG.

I'd be willing to test the stage in a tournament scene, though. It's pretty important to allow stages that are borderline broken in theory to see if they even are broken.

Personally, I'd say that Fox and Samus are bigger problems than Pit. His arrows are strong, but they can easily be dodged or blocked. Fox's rate of fire and Samus's missiles are a bigger problem. But even then, it's a counter-pick at most.

Dedede's CG is a problem, but if it comes down to it, I'm more up for banning the move than the stage. Otherwise, you'd have to ban stages with walls, too.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

I still think Pirate Ship should be a neutral, and so should Distant Planet. There's nothing wrong with either of them.

And Frigate needs to be banned, I've died so many times, even when I think I'm safe from the flip it turns out I'm stuck down there.

Lucas, Ness and pretty much any character with a lousy recover is completely screwed on Frigate.

 

[King Zeal]

I can't see how Frigate Orpheon is any more bannable than Pirate Ship. Pirate Ship has an entire LIST of hazards that could disrupt a match--some of them fatal.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

I can't see how Frigate Orpheon is any more bannable than Pirate Ship. Pirate Ship has an entire LIST of hazards that could disrupt a match--some of them fatal.

None of them are bad, and they're don't give an advantage or disadvantage to

Frigate screws some characters up really bad.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Stadium 1's camp fest was a temporary stalemate that didn't favor either character, not a projectile war that favors Pit and Falco only.

Don't forget Eldin is also a giant walkoff, just asking for Dedede to CG.

I'd be willing to test the stage in a tournament scene, though. It's pretty important to allow stages that are borderline broken in theory to see if they even are broken.

1 character's chainggrab is not enough reason for it to be banned is it? It seems a bit mcuh since dedede is really the only character that could pull it off.
As for the bridge breaking the only ones I see being an issue are Link/WWLink and Samus due to their projectiles having possible killing ability and they aren't forced to stay still like Pit.

 

[King Zeal]

The falling ship gives aerial characters a lot of advantage. And characters with long-distance KO (like Zelda) moves can take major advantage of the plank, if it's sprung. The stage is DEFINITELY not neutral. Counter-pick, maybe.

 

[Firestorm88]

So is there ever going to be a CONCRETE ruling on the stages cause I have a tournament I need to run in less than 3 weeks and I need official ruling. Also what about stages for 2v2. Any word on what's legal or not?

There will be eventually. Maybe not in time for your tournament. In which case I'd kill off the obvoius New Pork City, Hyrule Temple, WarioWare, Mario Bros, and 75m and allow everything else.

I still think Pirate Ship should be a neutral, and so should Distant Planet. There's nothing wrong with either of them.

And Frigate needs to be banned, I've died so many times, even when I think I'm safe from the flip it turns out I'm stuck down there.

Lucas, Ness and pretty much any character with a lousy recover is completely screwed on Frigate.

Pirate Ship is not neutral. It's got quite a bit of hazards that are relatively hard to avoid. I can see why you'd argue for neutral, but I'd call it more of a counterpick stage.

Frigate is fine. If the stage is going to flip, jump. You will not be on the wrong side if you're in the air.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

1 character's chainggrab is not enough reason for it to be banned is it? It seems a bit mcuh since dedede is really the only character that could pull it off.
As for the bridge breaking the only ones I see being an issue are Link/WWLink and Samus due to their projectiles having possible killing ability and they aren't forced to stay still like Pit.

Fox in Melee got walk-offs banned with a similar tactic (waveshining), and he was the only one capable of it.

Pit's projectile is arguably the best character-projectile in the entire series. It travels really fast, comes out really fast, stuns like Falco's lasers do, never come to a stop until they reach the end of a stage, and you can change the trajectory mid-flight.

I don't think Fox is really too much of a problem, his lasers come to a stop after a certain distance and after testing it a little, it only barely scratches part of the stage beyond the gap. He can instantly cross the ledge with his forward+B though, so I'd say he's still okay. Plus he has a reflector.

Samus's projectiles are pretty good there, as is Zelda's Din's Fire, but neither of them have a reliable reflector (Zelda has a larger window of non-reflection because of how they nerfed Nayru's love.)

I feel it'd be good to leave on as a counterpick to see if the Super Smash Theory Brawl discussion of it holds true, though.

 

[Seifersythe]

I seriously don't understand why people want to bad Pirate Ship. The catapult is only out for ten or so seconds, it's clearly visible, and if you fall on it it's your own **** fault.

The water isn't bad, just different. Every character can get out of it, and there's nothing wrong with your opponent waiting on the edge to kill you. It's edge guarding.

The canon balls are easily avoidable, and are only slightly worse then the lasers on Corneria.

And I fail to see how everyone being floater for five or so seconds can give any character serious advantage.

 

[2.72]

Neutral (6):
Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Yoshi's Island
Pokemon Stadium (Melee)

Potentally Neutral (3):
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
Halberd

Counter-Pick (13)
Norfair
Pictochat
Mario Circuit
Luigi's Mansion
Great Sea
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Greens (Melee)
Corneria (Melee)
Onett (Melee)
Brinstar (Melee)
Rainbow Cruise (Melee)

Potential Counter-Pick (7)
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Haenbow
Pokmon Stadium 2
Eldin Bridge
Jungle Japes (Melee)
Yoshi's Island (Melee)

Banned (14)
Rumble Falls
WarioWare
Skyworld
New Pork City
Summit
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2
Port Town Aero Dive
Mario Bros.
Spear Pillar
Flat Zone 2
75m
Big Blue (Melee)
Hyrule Temple (Melee)

Congratulations, sir, this is the first stage ban list that I agree with, or come very close to agreeing with. I would definitely call Delfino Plaza neutral, and probably Castle Siege too. None of the transformations are very disruptive at all on Plaza, except maybe the one with a walk-off edge. Even there, playing defensively would probably be sufficient to avoid Dedede until the stage changes. Castle Siege's middle form is the only questionable one: it has walk-off edges and statues that inhibit projectiles. My feeling, for now, is that neither of those features will be all that disruptive.

I think that Jungle Japes will be counterpick legal. The water is much more forgiving, although Ike has major issues in it (in fact, I think that he would have done better with the old water). Additionally, it is easier to avoid the water entirely because everyone is floaty. While moving water is too harsh on Ike for a neutral stage, it was counterpick in Melee and is more fair this time around.

I'm not sure about this, but for now I have no serious issues with Shadow Moses Island (as a counterpick stage). Wall combos are not really more of an issue than in Melee, and Green Greens was counterpick. The stage is perhaps unfair when the walls are destroyed, but that doesn't last long and takes some effort. It drastically favors characters with good vertical KO power (and Kirby), but hey, a giving some characters a significant advantage is a textbook example of a reason to make a stage counterpick-legal.

I think that the layout on Yoshi's Melee Island makes it difficult for Dedede to chaingrab characters off of the edge, and I know that it makes backthrow camping very difficult. With the blocks to disrupt projectiles and the close boundaries, this stage is certainly not neutral, but I don't think that it deserves to be banned. I'm not completely certain due to the left KO boundary, but I'm confident enough that I would put it on the counterpick list.

Green Hill Zone is, in my experience, very campy. Backthrow camping is very effective on both sides, and can easily make a game degenerate into a stalemate, and the center provides a situational but sometimes very large positional advantage. In Melee, I believe that easy backthrow camping was considered a ban-worthy offense.

The only stage that I really disagree with you on is Great Sea. The hazards are very predictable and the advantage to aerial characters only applies for a short period of time. I understand that this has been discussed, and I understand your position, but I happen to disagree with it. I think that Great Sea should be potentially neutral, with Halberd.

 

[Eten]

I disagree on Skyworld(see previously), and after playing a lot on these courses, I revise my opinion on Summit and Port Town: Aerodive. Summit is very consistent, and it's combined stage hazards are rarely worse than Pokemon Stadium II. The single deathtrap is avoidable, and overall it's a unique but fair course.

On Port Town: Aerodive, once you recognize each location all of the cars are predictable. You can see them all in the backround, either around a curve or whatever, a good few seconds before they arrive. In addition, there are guaranteed safe-zones for all spots. I suggest anyone who feel this course to be bannable to play it extensively to notice that there is a clear and lengthy visual warning on all vehicle approaches, and reliable locations to avoid the quick pass of cars every time. It plays very similar to brinstar or norfair after realizing this.

Backthrow-camping is risky btw. It puts yourself close to the edge, you could be grabbed, hit with projectiles, etc. I have no idea how it could be considered ban-worthy.

Lastly, I think Hanenbow is getting a lot of negative feelings towards it because of confusion that summarize very well what people are actually basing their lists on. Hanenbow actually-
-Has no water or gravity modifications.
-No random elements or damage.
-No walk-offs.
-Normal grabable ledges at the normal end of leaves.
-Is simply a basic set of platforms in which some shift in steepness when hit.

Hanenbow should EASILY make the counterpick list under *any* realistic set of rules for classification you want to go by.

 

[2.72]

I disagree on Skyworld(see previously), and after playing a lot on these courses, I revise my opinion on Summit and Port Town: Aerodive. Summit is very consistent, and it's combined stage hazards are rarely worse than Pokemon Stadium II. The single deathtrap is avoidable, and overall it's a unique but fair course.

On Port Town: Aerodive, once you recognize each location all of the cars are predictable. You can see them all in the backround, either around a curve or whatever, a good few seconds before they arrive. In addition, there are guaranteed safe-zones for all spots. I suggest anyone who feel this course to be bannable to play it extensively to notice that there is a clear and lengthy visual warning on all vehicle approaches, and reliable locations to avoid the quick pass of cars every time. It plays very similar to brinstar or norfair after realizing this.

I at least half-agree with you. My issue with Port Town isn't so much that people die from the cars in some unpreventable way inasmuch as they get combo'd into the cars. Sometimes it feels like it's almost as bad as getting combo'd into the road on Big Blue, and that certainly is worth a ban.

I disagree about Skyworld, but that's been done to death and I don't see any resolution until the Back Room comes down on one side or the other.

Backthrow-camping is risky btw. It puts yourself close to the edge, you could be grabbed, hit with projectiles, etc. I have no idea how it could be considered ban-worthy.

True, but characters who are good at playing turtle (ie shield grabbing a lot) and who are fighting opponents who don't have a projectile can, in my experience, die way less than half of the time against equally skilled opponents. I know that it's risky, but I still think that it works out well far too much.

Lastly, I think Hanenbow is getting a lot of negative feelings towards it because of confusion that summarize very well what people are actually basing their lists on. Hanenbow actually-
-Has no water or gravity modifications.
-No random elements or damage.
-No walk-offs.
-Normal grabable ledges at the normal end of leaves.
-Is simply a basic set of platforms in which some shift in steepness when hit.

Hanenbow should EASILY make the counterpick list under *any* realistic set of rules for classification you want to go by.

It's true that much of the anti-Hanenbow sentiment is unfounded, and that it should initially be on the counterpick list. My concern is not that the edges are weird. They're fine, and odd edges is not worthy of a ban. See Battlefield.

That being said, I have a serious problem with it. I think, although I am not sure, that it is possible to be so evasive that you take only a few hits in an eight-minute match, which would get it banned. We need more experience to be sure, though, but my guess is that it will be initially allowed, but later banned after someone actually spends much of a full match just running away.

Hopefully I'm wrong about Hanenbow. I don't have enough experience with it to be at all confident in my guess, and I like the stage.

 

[The_NZA]

From sirlin.net's Playing To Win book.
I advise everyone discussing banning stuff to read this.
Dave Sirlin is exceptionally well known in the world of competitive fighting games, being a top level player at multiple games, notably Super Turbo and Alpha 2.
He's currently the man balancing the latest incarnation of SF2, the world's most successful fighting game.
I trust his credentials in regards to competitive play are obvious to everyone.



This next part I believe is pertinent in the case of Dedede's walk off chain grab.



There should be bugger all banned by this point. Especially with some of the crappy, whiny reasons i've heard so far. Stages (and items, for that matter), should ONLY be removed where they are game breaking. For them to be proven game breaking should be demonstrated in tournaments.

The random issue isn't viable - many characters have random aspects. Super Turbo has an insane amount of random factors (everything from damage of moves to dizzy factors). One of GG's most popular high level characters (Faust) is loaded with random moves.

Potential character adantages? Isn't that the ENTIRE point of counter picking? Also, if you want to ban stages to keep characters balanced, you may as well stamp 'TIERS DON'T EXIST' on your forehead. Characters will be unbalanced to a greater or lesser extent regardless of stages.

Stage hazards? All are completely avoidable. They're certainly not 'unpredictable'. Brinstar's acid raises in a pattern, and can be seen rising before it reaches the platforms.
Norfair's lava can also be seen well in advance.
Port Town's cars only come at certain points, and platforms are provided to avoid them.
Mario Circuit's cars come in a pattern, and are shown clearly on the stage's backboard.
etc etc.

Brawl is a new game. It's not melee.
We don't have an advanced metagame, a developed tournament scene, or expert players yet. We need these things before we can establish what is best for them.
Let Brawl's competitive scene advance on its own, and demonstrate clearly what needs to be banned by definite provable evidence, not theory.

If it can't be proven it needs banned, then it doesn't need banned.

Completely Quote for Truth. This topic should be closed now. We should hold several tournaments, and just ban the few stages that are obvious bans (Wario Ware stage, mostly because of the Star powerup it gives you, etc.)

 

[The_NZA]

There's no pattern to when Bulbin is coming, though. And, if you're on the wrong side of the stage and have the right amount of damage, he can kill you easily.

Great Sea, not that many people pay attention to the background.

Green Hill Zone's destructible center makes it very easy to meteor smash someone into oblivion. Not to mention it's unfair to Sheik and Zero Suit Samus mains, as their meteors also bring them down, too.

Onett's exclamation mark appears at random times, and the cars can annihilate you if you aren't careful.

Rumble Falls' "speed up" occurs at semi-random times. You never know when it'll decide to start going faster until it pops up.

Seriously, get over yourself. I've never been killed by the Bulbin once. It is SO easy to see coming. The Great Sea's background is a necessity to watch out for. If you cant do it, tough luck. Hope you dont get counterpicked because the person counterpicking will, i'm sure, be able to see it coming.

Green Hill Zone's destructive center being unfair to shiek and Zero Suit Samus Mains? Are you serious? Thats a reason to ban the level? Last time I checked, when i mained Ness in Melee (insert lol here) no one was saying we should ban green greens as a counterpick since if ness gets caught between two of the platforms he doesn't have the space to hit himself with the up B to recover. No one was saying Ness cant slope up the side walls of Yoshi's story easily putting him at a disadvantage. ADAPT. thats the point of the game. Tourny rules state that you learn what stage you will be playing before you pick your character. Would ZSS be at a disadvantage? Fine. Pick your Secondary character. Unless ZSS is unplayable in the stage, we shouldn't be having this conversation.

Also your point about Onnett And Rumble Falls is simply a reflection of how little you've actually played on the smash scene. We didn't ban pokefloats. We didn't ban mute city. No way in hell would we ban Onett or Rumble falls for those crappy reasons.

 

[fargokraft]

Very good added feed back.
I enjoyed much of the reads.

especially on the Port Town argument by eten.

I never really camp that long.
I've never seen anyone abuse it that much (yet).
but at most, I'll camp for like 4 seconds... then I get bored if you don't come to me,
and I chase you down.

I'm going to have to join some local tournaments to see how each one runs there,
and what abuses might arise.

I'm strongly considering adding a lot more levels into the counter picks section now (for tourneys I host). :D
I like how so many are pro- bridge of eldin! woot!

 

[Serris]

People are saying Hanenbow should be legal, but I seriously hate that stage. Why? Because it's a pain in the behind trying to tether with Ivysaur or Zero Suit Samus. The very tip of the leaf is kind of hard to aim for.

Not to mention it makes me dizzy.

 

[Crom]

I pretty much dislike anything that interrupts combat in anyway. Sure the variety of maps is fun at home but it's nothing but an annoyance in tournaments.

If it were up to me it would be:

Neutrals:

Lylat
FD
Battlefield
Yoshi
Smashville

Counterpick:

Castle Siege
Delfino
Luigi's Mansion
Pokemon 1

and that's about it.

Maybe just nuetrals only, that'd be good

 

[Firestorm88]

People are saying Hanenbow should be legal, but I seriously hate that stage. Why? Because it's a pain in the behind trying to tether with Ivysaur or Zero Suit Samus. The very tip of the leaf is kind of hard to aim for.

Not to mention it makes me dizzy.

If you're Zero Suit Samus, you should use your down+b to recover, not up+b. It's Ivysaur and Olimar who have a hard time with recovery and I would say it's not enough to warrant a ban. It's a counter-pick for a reason. And with the way Advanced Slob Picks work, you'll know the stage BEFORE you pick your character.

I pretty much dislike anything that interrupts combat in anyway. Sure the variety of maps is fun at home but it's nothing but an annoyance in tournaments.

If it were up to me it would be:

list

and that's about it.

Maybe just nuetrals only, that'd be good

Then it's a good thing you're not in charge of making decisions.

 

[The_NZA]

Serris seriously, do you do anything but ***** and Moan!? *WAH! ONE OF ZERO SUIT SAMUS's 3 different recoveries isn't perfect!*.


And as far as this topic goes...It should be closed. We are expecting to have some conclusive decision on what stages should be legal and illegal, but its just turning stupid, with everyone stipulating and theorizing random factors being the death of competitive brawling.

We can agree that Wario Ware should be banned. We can agree New Pork City should be banned. Lets ban these stages and hold some tournaments. See how things go, just having a defined list of neutrals (Which should be easy and uncontravertial to make), and lets see how things go. We can record who wins what matches in what stages, and by how much, and we can look out for patterns. In the mean time, lets stop *****ing.

 

[Serris]

Serris seriously, do you do anything but ***** and Moan!? *WAH! ONE OF ZERO SUIT SAMUS's 3 different recoveries isn't perfect!*

Do you do anything but yell at people because you have such a short fuse you have to take it out on a forum? Seriously. Learn to control yourself.

Zero Suit Samus's recoveries can be extremely unreliable. Her Up+B is decent, but if you try to go directly from the Space Jump into it, you'll wind up killing yourself. As for the Plasma Whip method, I don't even use it.

Now, for stage bans, how does this sound?

Neutral:

Battlefield
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

Counterpick:

Bridge of Eldin
Brinstar
Corneria
Distant Planet
Flat Zone 2
Great Sea/Pirate Ship
Green Greens
Halberd
Hanenbow
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Onett
Pokémon Stadium
Pokémon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Island (Melee)

Banned:

75m
Big Blue
Flat Zone
Green Hill Zone
Mario Bros.
Mushroomy Kingdom
New Pork City
Norfair
PictoChat
Port Town Aero Dive
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Skyworld
Spear Pillar
WarioWare, Inc.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

For now I say the following should be banned:

Flat Zone
Mario Bros.
New Pork City
Norfair
Skyworld
Spear Pillar
WarioWare, Inc.

Everything else can be tried out at tournaments and see how it goes. Brawl just came out last week.

 

[Crom]

I still want to hear more opinions on Frigate Orpheon regarding this and the general lameness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-cKOk4Ky_k

You can be screwed by that stage multiple different ways. Sure an alarm warning is going off, but what does that matter if your knocked off the stage and trying to recover, then all of a sudden the edge is flipped away from you? Something like that has no business in a tournament.

In the video Snake uses his second jump right as it flips and it ends up just jumping into the roof. He could have possibly recovered with more DI, cypher, then a C4 jump, but not all characters have that option. Mic mentioned Ike could DI back and recover, but I doubt he could do it in that situation, once you use his up B you barely have any influence.

That stage is just generally lame.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

I still want to hear more opinions on Frigate Orpheon regarding this and the general lameness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-cKOk4Ky_k

You can be screwed by that stage multiple different ways. Sure an alarm warning is going off, but what does that matter if your knocked off the stage and trying to recover, then all of a sudden the edge is flipped away from you? Something like that has no business in a tournament.

In the video Snake uses his second jump right as it flips and it ends up just jumping into the roof. He could have possibly recovered with more DI, cypher, then a C4 jump, but not all characters have that option. Mic mentioned Ike could DI back and recover, but I doubt he could do it in that situation, once you use his up B you barely have any influence.

That stage is just generally lame.

I hate Frigate myself. The flip has killed me so many times, in situations similar to the video and many others.

I honestly see it being banned very quickly, it's rather annoying.

 

[Seifersythe]

Serris seriously, do you do anything but ***** and Moan!? *WAH! ONE OF ZERO SUIT SAMUS's 3 different recoveries isn't perfect!*.


And as far as this topic goes...It should be closed. We are expecting to have some conclusive decision on what stages should be legal and illegal, but its just turning stupid, with everyone stipulating and theorizing random factors being the death of competitive brawling.

We can agree that Wario Ware should be banned. We can agree New Pork City should be banned. Lets ban these stages and hold some tournaments. See how things go, just having a defined list of neutrals (Which should be easy and uncontravertial to make), and lets see how things go. We can record who wins what matches in what stages, and by how much, and we can look out for patterns. In the mean time, lets stop *****ing.

Listen to this man.

And especially listen to Decadent One. I agree with everything he's said. (with the exception of items, seeing how it's a gameplay option, just like time/stock and their not really banned so much as 'turned off' (also the book which he recommended is utterly fascinating and I suspect that most of the Smash Back Room has read it, specifically Mic (who is also the coolest mod in existence)))

Also, Serris, I main Zamus, and the best advice I can give is 'get over it.' Yeah, it's harder to cling to the stage for tethered characters, but that's why it's called a counter pick. It'll only be picked if you WIN the first one. It's not character breaking, regardless.

-edit-

Sure an alarm warning is going off, but what does that matter if your knocked off the stage and trying to recover?

I hate Frigate myself. The flip has killed me so many times, in situations similar to the video and many others.

I honestly see it being banned very quickly, it's rather annoying.

The gimped spots are consistent each time. Do me a favor. Go into training mode and just hang out in it for ten minutes, experimenting with which parts are safe and which are deadly.

Problem solved. Now you have an advantage there. And then, if you still die, it's your own **** fault.

 

[PinkPwnageFrenzy]

~[Should be Counter-Pick/Banned]~

Pirate Ship
Port Town Aero Dive
Delfino Plaza
Skyworld
Green Hill Zone

These are the ones I'm indecisive on. The pirate ship seems like it has quite a few ways to kill people. The little things are easy to overlook in the middle of a combo. I don't have enough personal experience with Port Town, it seems pretty even, but I haven't played it a whole lot. Skyworld, you can kinda camp the middle, and tether recovery people can't grab the ledge if it's a cloud. In Green Hill Zone, Dedede can chaingrab off both sides. It feels kinda odd to me, but whatever.

~[Banned]~

Norfair
Frigate Orpheon
Mushroomy Kingdom
Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
Bridge of Eldin
Spear Pillar
WarioWare, Inc.
Summit
75m
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Pictochat
Hanenbow
Shadow Moses Island
Temple - Melee
Big Blue - Melee
Onett

With Norfair, the stage interferes too much. It has a part where it takes up half the stage, and the whole stage, which I feel interrupts the game flow.

Frigate gimps way too many recoveries for it's own good. Maybe it's because I'm not good at it, but it's very easy to be caught off guard by it.

Mushroomy Kingdom, if it turns into 1-2 becomes a "Cave of Life" and the stage is ridiculously to chaingrab people off of and infinite against walls with.

Mario Circuit has walk off edges, which equals edge camping and chaingrabbing.

Rumble Falls makes you focus more on jumping up constantly, and that interrupts/prohibits
battles.

Bridge of Eldin is huge, has walk off edges (means chaingrabs and edge camping, in case you haven't picked up the trend), and once the middle disappears, it turns into people just projectile camping, and general stalling.

Spear Pillar just has too many obstacles. I wouldn't be too happy if my money were on the line for this match.

With Hanenbow, it seems really easy to just run away.

It's not only Dedede you have to worry about in Shadow Moses Island, but Falco and Fox, and basically anyone that has a continuous A move. They'll pin you against the wall, and you can't do anything about it.

Onett doesn't always warn you about the cars. There's random ones occasionally.

And just for clarification the neutral stages are:

Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Yoshi's Island
Pokemon Stadium

Delfino Plaza has walls people can chaingrab/pin on, and Castle Siege has the projectiles at the start, along with the walk off edges in the second area.

 

[saud]

Frigate Orpheon should be banned http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-cKOk4Ky_k

That shouldn't be happening on any tournament legal stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD8g_Xt34-Q

Better example of why it should be banned

Poor Pika...

 

[Seifersythe]

The pirate ship seems like it has quite a few ways to kill people. The little things are easy to overlook in the middle of a combo.

Then it's your fault.

Frigate gimps way too many recoveries for it's own good. Maybe it's because I'm not good at it, but it's very easy to be caught off guard by it.

There are safe zones. And they're the same every time. It's your fault.

Castle Siege has the projectiles at the start, along with the walk off edges in the second area.

Corneria has projectiles. And you can avoid the walk off edges by staying on the upper platforms.

 

[King Zeal]

I still have yet to hear good reasons why Skyworld should be banned. Serris even added it to the ban list while keeping stages like Flatzone 2 and Jungle Japes. I don't see how you can possibly believe that Skyworld is more hazardous than the other two.

The same goes for Shadow Moses. It's definitely counter-pick, especially against Giga Jiggs, but ban-worthy? I don't see how.

 

[Rikka]

Pink, that's way too many bans for this early on.

Excellent post Descendant One, btw.

 

[Firestorm88]

Those banning Norfair in particular should probably list reasoning for it. Mic has said in at least one other topic that Norfair is currently being leaned towards in the counter-pick department.

I still want to hear more opinions on Frigate Orpheon regarding this and the general lameness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-cKOk4Ky_k

You can be screwed by that stage multiple different ways. Sure an alarm warning is going off, but what does that matter if your knocked off the stage and trying to recover, then all of a sudden the edge is flipped away from you? Something like that has no business in a tournament.

In the video Snake uses his second jump right as it flips and it ends up just jumping into the roof. He could have possibly recovered with more DI, cypher, then a C4 jump, but not all characters have that option. Mic mentioned Ike could DI back and recover, but I doubt he could do it in that situation, once you use his up B you barely have any influence.

That stage is just generally lame.

Are you talking theoretically? Because if you're in the air, you don't get flipped by the stage. And if you're recovering as it happens and it affects you, there's the platform on the right to jump on. If you're recovering from the left, you probably already died or can make it back without needing the edges.

All of what people are complaining about Frigate seem to be because they haven't played it enough to learn it. There's nothing about it to warrant a ban.

 

[King Zeal]

Those banning Norfair in particular should probably list reasoning for it. Mic has said in at least one other topic that Norfair is currently being leaned towards in the counter-pick department..

My current reasoning is that Norfair is a stage that seems to be based somewhat on the element of luck. Is there a predictable pattern to the lava spurts? Is there a pattern to the capsule? If so, this wouldn't be so bad.

However, at the same time, the appearance of the capsule is, to me, akin to that of a Smash Ball. The entire game practically halts while both players scramble for it. Let's a imagine a close match, with both players at about 80% or higher, both on their last stocks. Then, a capsule shows up. One character happens to be closer and gets inside while waiting for his opponent to try to do the same.

Is that something you really want to see the last stocks of a tourney match come down to?

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Except the capsule isn't even necessary to avoid that giant flow of lava. You can shield, air-dodge, and even jump over it.

 

[King Zeal]

Now that I didn't know.

That kind of changes my opinion, then.

 

[Firestorm88]

Yeah, that's something a lot of people seem to not understand. The only issue with the stage is the weird lava spurt with the weird hitboxes that comes from the background.