Official Stage Discussion

[flintconfirmed]

^ You know, that's really, really interesting. One of the most interesting tidbits about stage design that I've read in a while, and trust me I've paid attention. But.

You honestly thought that was going to matter when people don't even want to play tourney-type matches on Halberd, Delfino Plaza, or heck, not even on Skyworld and Lylat ?
Honestly, we just aren't going to make use of that gameplay aspect. We either go full ****** on it and go giga bowser quaditto in stamina v3 or turbo heavy metal mode, or won't play it for more than two consecutive matches. Either way we won't ever be serious enough about Bowser's Castle that the shift in the center of stage is going to matter.

I know it's not very PMatically correct to say that casual Smash and tourney Smash should be two distinct things. Kinda sounds a lot like "separate but equals", doesn't it ? Well the problem is, when it comes to stages, there really doesn't seem to be a way to please everybody. The ASL helps a lot, but that acts as a janky, tinker-y, not very elegant solution to the problem, lol. So if you're going to make a stage with awesome hazards like Bowser's Castle, bro, by all means, feel free to go cray cray ! But please, pleaaase save your competitive stage ideas for competitive stages. I'd hate them to be "wasted" on a stage I'm never going to play in tournaments*.

* : (actually I already played on Bowser's Castle once in tourney because it was a free tourney and we decided to do everything the opposite of the usual way, for the hell of it, and it was awesome)

I disagree.

I like Bowsers because it's not filled with garbage. It's unique but definitely still playable.

The popular tourney stage list will almost never change at this point, so it doesn't matter to make purely competitive stages anymore. In the very end, the VERY end, the game is still about having fun. And i don't think having fun should have to be played one way or the other. That's why toggles, switches, sliders, and buttons exist.

I don't understand why people like Pokefloats, but i definitely would not argue against a stage being made for them. At the same time, probably no one but my local scene likes Great Bay, Termina.

 

[GFooChombey]

I'm pretty sure SOJ said they're going to focus on fun stages from now on.

 

[_Chrome]

I disagree.

I like Bowsers because it's not filled with garbage. It's unique but definitely still playable.

The popular tourney stage list will almost never change at this point, so it doesn't matter to make purely competitive stages anymore. In the very end, the VERY end, the game is still about having fun. And i don't think having fun should have to be played one way or the other. That's why toggles, switches, sliders, and buttons exist.

I don't understand why people like Pokefloats, but i definitely would not argue against a stage being made for them. At the same time, probably no one but my local scene likes Great Bay, Termina.

Just for the record, Great Bay is pretty much my favourite stage ever. Except the stage spikes off the bottom. And Tingle. Lord knows I hate that Tingle...

 

[MegaMissingno]

I do think Bowser's is a lot of fun. But I still think it'd be more fun with a platform added.

 

[Nefnoj]

Just for the record, Great Bay is pretty much my favourite stage ever. Except the stage spikes off the bottom. And Tingle. Lord knows I hate that Tingle...

Same here, but

Tingle's my spirit animal.

The stage spikes can be taken care of with some swimmy water, it slows the drop, but if the opponent has high enough damage, can still be used.
If used as an alt for (remastered HD-ified?) Great Bay, I totally think the stage should have swimmy. Please my love Project M, for me?

I do think Bowser's is a lot of fun. But I still think it'd be more fun with a platform added.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the current topic! I put a platform on my build, can confirm, though it should be a wide and high platform. Maybe suspended by chains and animated up and down. IDEA JUST HATCHED MID-TYPING.
What if the Bowser's face WAS the platform, suspended by chain, and after a few seconds, would be lifted up?

 

[_Chrome]

Same here, but

Tingle's my spirit animal.

The stage spikes can be taken care of with some swimmy water, it slows the drop, but if the opponent has high enough damage, can still be used.
If used as an alt for (remastered HD-ified?) Great Bay, I totally think the stage should have swimmy. Please my love Project M, for me

I agree. Great Bay doesn't need the water from Melee: I understand they've had trouble making it the same as it was. So long as I get to run around on that turtle again I'll be happy.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I think the competitive-funsies analysis is valid, buuuut

People like platforms. More movement options, more and more varied interaction. Lots of extra little dynamics, and that's really what sets Smash apart to begin with. Look at what people said when FD was the topic in here a while back. If memory serves, it was mostly along the lines of "I don't really like the stage, but I see its value as a competitive option and the stagelist would be incomplete without it." I don't think the "fun" side of the stagelist really needs to worry about filling that niche, and I don't think a couple of platforms would subtract unduly from the dynamics the Thwomps bring to the stage.

And I'd still like to see a "legalized" alt version with platforms and the extended sides but no Thwomps. Not to say that I don't enjoy having them in funsies, but it'd be an interesting addition with some unusual dynamics given the platform concentration near the center and the relatively wide layout with recessed walls.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Also best part is that a platform could open up more ways to knock or throw your opponent right into the Thwomps. That would be so much fun.

 

[GFooChombey]

If by open up new ways, you mean encourage people to camp on that platform and play chicken until someone gets the grab, yes. It'd be like the spike in Jungle Falls, but more frequent and lasting longer.

The only way I imagine platforms working on this stage is if they're only present when the thwomps are not. And that just seems like a mess.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Sounds kind of difficult to truly camp on a single small platform at the center of the stage.

 

[Elemayo]

the right side of Skyloft can be hard to recover onto with some characters. maybe it's just the nature of the stage

 

[Sandfall]

New stage discussion!

This time, we'll be talking about Snake's home stage: Shadow Moses Island!

 

[MegaMissingno]

Always hated it, surprised nothing's been done with it yet.

 

[Draco_The]

Love it. The destructible walls make it a very interesting stage.

 

[GP&B]

If it didn't fringe on copyright danger zones too much, I'd love to see an original MGS stage. I just don't care much for SMI besides the rare casual match.

 

[Xermo]

Love the aesthetic, but there's no balanced version out there that still seems to capture it's feel. Gonna have to fix that.

 

[GFooChombey]

I've never liked this stage. It's cramped and a lot of the match is spent trying to get kills off the top and if you use a character without options to do so, it's misery. If this was a transforming stage, this would work as a transformation, but as is, it's like being stuck on the transformation nobody likes. Think the second form of Castle Siege or Rock/Fire on PS1. I always replace it with this mod. Though I don't think it should be made into a competitive stage, I'd love to see it get some PMDT love to make it fun.


Off topic for @ Sandfall

Spoiler

I want to bring up something I've thought about for a while. I heard some people mention this who were playing PM for the first time at SSC so I might as well. Why is PS2 still labeled as such? When I hear "2" I think about those transformations. Then to make it even more confusing the alt stage is PS1. Should this stage just be labeled Pokemon Stadium or some other clever name?

 

[Draco_The]

Pokémon Stadium M.

Not only because of Project M but also because of the Master Ball.

 

[Nefnoj]

It always bugged me that the Metal Gears don't interact with the stage at all. Them, nor the spotlight, affect gameplay, so there's no point in them staying. I've never played a Metal Gear game, but wouldn't they be trying to slaughter everyone if they had the chance? They ought to be removed.

I could also see the walk-off being removable, while still keeping the walls. That might enhance gameplay rather than harm it, while making destruction of the walls a bit more important.

 

[Xermo]

They ought to be removed.

Why remove something that makes the stage more visually appealing just because it doesn't have a direct impact on the fight? It's like removing the bulborb on DP, background pokemon on ps2 transformations, mother brain or parasite queen on the metroid stages, banzai bill on peach's castle, enemies and toads on bowser's castle or the entirety of delfino's secret's background for not being able to jump there.

Also play metal gear.

 

[Nefnoj]

Why remove something that makes the stage more visually appealing just because it doesn't have a direct impact on the fight? It's like removing the bulborb on DP, background pokemon on ps2 transformations, mother brain or parasite queen on the metroid stages, banzai bill on peach's castle, enemies and toads on bowser's castle or the entirety of delfino's secret's background for not being able to jump there.

I don't think that logic can be applied to the Metal Gears... For each of those cases (except the parasite queen who I've always thought should be removed for the same reason), they're far away and have nothing to do with the fight. Most of them are subtle. Except for the Pokémon, who aren't machines designed to slaughter, the Mother Brain who is dead, and the background of Delfino's Secret (I don't understand your example there).

I lied when I said that they don't interact nor affect gameplay: They do, but indirectly.

Firstly, in the Shadow Moses Island, the red light of the facility in addition to the little explosion and giant machines provide an intimidating affect, making the player feel like he or she is in imminent danger. When I first played on this stage and saw them, I somewhat freaked out, I thought they were going to kill me... And then they kinda hopped around playing hopscotch or whatever, I was extremely disappointed. They presented, not as an aesthetic, like each of what you've listed (except maybe that dang Parasite Queen, I hate it so much I want to eat it), but as a threat to the player. If it's presented as a threat, it should be carried through as a threat.

Secondly, a few of the Metal Gears obviously see the fighters. One of them will occasionally point his gun thingy at the stage, one will hop out of the hole in the ceiling and kind of crouch on the ledge. They're more of a distraction than an aesthetic. They're jarring and interrupting. The red light contrasting from the stage's colours only enhances the distraction.

However, I understand that you wouldn't want them removed. Otherwise, the stage becomes very bland other than a wall you can beat up! Perhaps they should simply make the background elements a bit more subtle? I've always been against live characters in a Smash round that are obviously watching the fight, who would, in their character, join it, but don't actually do anything.

Spoiler

The one for the GameCube comes first, right?

 

[Xermo]

Had these stages been developed for Wii u, I'm sure said elements would indeed be less aesthetic and more involved in the fight.
The point I was getting at with delfino was that the actual stage portion (rotating platforms, platforming structures, etc.) only serve an aesthetic purpose for being there when that stage could have simply been the main shine sprite platform and the blue space background, in a similar sense that SMI's mechs keep the stage from being just a building on the snow.

And yeah, the GameCube one is a remake of the first game, so you're good starting there.

 

[Draco_The]

Some fans kinda hate the GC remake because of the over-the-top cutscenes and some VA changes (specially Gray Fox's), but I loved it.

 

[Comeback Kid]

I think it would be cooler and less like an amusement park ride if the Metal Gears were a bit more in the distance walking around and fighting, but I don't know if the models in the game would actually allow that to be done.

I agree with Nefnoj that removing the walk-offs but keeping the destructible walls would be a very interesting combination. They shouldn't return back though until someone has been KOed and is respawning with the edgeguarder back on the stage as well so people don't get stuck behind one and fall to their doom. The stage itself should be bigger so you have more room to fight and you're not bouncing around like a ping pong ball so easily.

Another aesthetic detail which would look great would be if you remove the second floor railing so the stage is just the ground floor and platforms, then make the platforms keep the railings.

 

[flintconfirmed]

Nefnoj, I can sort of see what you mean by it seeming threatening, but ends up being a distraction. But these aren't the biggest issues with the stage.

My biggest issue with the competitive mod is that you can see the Metal Gear behind the wall. That's just ugly, in my opinion.

I actually don't think they stage could really be fixed without being completely new. And I don't mean for competitive play, it's not fun to play on even casually.

A cool idea would be to turn the stage on the z axis 90 degrees. Make a ledge and playable area, keep the destructible wall one side, and the Metal Gear might be able to burst through that with maybe a similar hotbox to thwomp. I might want to draw this up sometime.

 

[Soft Serve]

Keep the walls, and make it so items can hit them and will bounce off. The walls are amazing for practicing shield pressure/on hot things with a lot of characters. I'd hate to see that get taken out (unless of course an infinite shield toggle gets made somehow)

 

[Nefnoj]

Keep the walls, and make it so items can hit them and will bounce off. The walls are amazing for practicing shield pressure/on hot things with a lot of characters. I'd hate to see that get taken out (unless of course an infinite shield toggle gets made somehow)

They're also fun. I don't think that they should regenerate though. Kind of ruins it.

 

[Draco_The]

I've never liked this stage. It's cramped and a lot of the match is spent trying to get kills off the top and if you use a character without options to do so, it's misery. If this was a transforming stage, this would work as a transformation, but as is, it's like being stuck on the transformation nobody likes. Think the second form of Castle Siege or Rock/Fire on PS1. I always replace it with this mod. Though I don't think it should be made into a competitive stage, I'd love to see it get some PMDT love to make it fun.

I forgot to say: how is it that you don't like the Metal Gear stage, that has a very unique use of stage destruction that changes how the stage is played, but you don't want to see this BS changed:

 

[GFooChombey]

I forgot to say: how is it that you don't like the Metal Gear stage, that has a very unique use of stage destruction that changes how the stage is played, but you don't want to see this BS changed:

Because I enjoy adapting to reverse controls and flipped visuals and playing with my usual tactics instead of changing my entire gameplay to kill off the top. I'd say those hazards are hardly comparable.

Keep the walls, and make it so items can hit them and will bounce off. The walls are amazing for practicing shield pressure/on hot things with a lot of characters. I'd hate to see that get taken out (unless of course an infinite shield toggle gets made somehow)

Someone on reddit pointed out that you can use the pillar on the ground floor of Luigi's Mansion for that. It won't break if the top floors are still intact.

 

[Zach777]

I love the camera hazards in Spear pillar too. If the stage got the evil cave of life removed, I would be all for it being tourney legal. All the camera hazards just make you adapt to them which is awesome. Except for the actual damaging hazards, those would not compliment tournament play as it is now.

 

[GFooChombey]

I like the cave of life because things get nuts when players get stuck there. But if the entire stage was just that, I wouldn't be a fan. cough shadow moses island cough

 

[Draco_The]

I like the cave of life because things get nuts when players get stuck there. But if the entire stage was just that, I wouldn't be a fan. cough shadow moses island cough

You can destroy the walls.

 

[Xermo]

A perma-cave of life is fun because the stage hazards around it make things hectic, but a temporary cave sucks because the direction you need to knock the opponent is inverted temporarily?

Adapting to reversed controls appears to be in the same boat as adapting to the kill direction; don't see how they aren't comparable.

 

[Draco_The]

Shadow Moses is one of the few stages (I can only think of Melee's Yoshi's Island right now) where the way it plays depends only on the players, and it's way more important than on Yoshi's Island. If you have problems killing using the upper blast line, then destroy a wall and try to kill your opponent with the new walk-off.
There are no random hazards. The only random things that happen during gameplay is Metal Gears/Gekkos appearing in the background and the !. There's only a set timer for the walls to appear again.
The two parts of the stage (above and below) make it different enough from other stages. It's not just a flat stage with a couple of platforms above.

That's why I don't understand people wanting to get rid of what makes this stage really unique. If you want to get rid of it just because a few characters have some problems there (problems that can be solved by getting rid of the walls in real time), I don't know why no one said anything about stages that have a soft floor that gives characters with great air mobility one hell of an advantage that also make side recovery moves (Ganondorf's side B for example) almost useless, for example.

And I compared that stupid hazard from Spear Pillar and the walls from Shadow Moses because the first one, flipping visuals, causing dizziness on the players and having them playing with reverse controls, isn't something that adds fun nor anything meaningful to the game, while the other one has things that you can't find in any other stage that actually change how the game is played.

If you guys don't want to have a stage change how you should play there's already BF, WW and lots of others. If your idea of a casual stage is to just have walk-offs and slopes I don't know what to say.

 

[MegaMissingno]

There are two things I hate most: walkoffs and walls. That's why I hate Shadow Moses.

 

[flintconfirmed]

If it's not changed, it doesn't bother me, I have plenty of fun on Peach's castle. I'd love for a new Metal Gear stage, don't get me wrong, but don't remove what the people love, I guess.

But my stance is that I hate it. See my previous post for details. I suppose this ends my input on this discussion unless I'm directly called upon.

 

[Comeback Kid]

The way walls are implemented in Shadow Moses Island is why I think some people hate them so much. But plenty of people have made good suggestions for how walls can work with Smash mechanics. Smacking the opponent into the wall should do a good chunk of damage to it going by the tradition of breakable walls in fighting games.

Hell, the thwomps on Bowser's Castle are essentially powerful falling walls that kill you instantly and people seem to love that stage. This is not nearly that extreme if done right.

 

[GFooChombey]

You can destroy the walls.

Then they grow back.

Edited for an actual thoughtful response:
Unless you have a truce with your friends to break the walls, they will be there more often then not. When they are broken, you have to deal with walkoffs (which I'm not a fan of) before they grow back. Let's say I'm a character that has trouble killing off the top. I have to adjust my entire game plan around either a) breaking the walls or b) figuring out how to defy my characters limitations. (That sounds like great practice on paper, but not in a casual match)

Now compare that to the space/time hazards in Spear Pillar. No matter if time is slowed, controls reversed, or a giant beam takes out a corner of the stage, my killing tools and fundamentals are the same. That's why I don't find them comparable.

tl;dr walls change the way you play, space/time does not.

 

[Comeback Kid]

You're right it isn't comparable, since mirroring the player's control over their character where left is right and right is left, no matter the type of game, is one of the most agreed upon examples of bad game mechanics from a fundamental design perspective. It is so despised because controlling your character is paramount in any game when you are moving freely in an unstunned state, and a status effect that so greatly messes up your predetermined controller inputs is a big no-no.

This is opposed to something reasonable like taking away one clearly marked move, having some of your health deplete from poison, or slowing you down slightly because that all requires real adaptation to the situation without the game wrestling control from your hands by completely disorienting you when you may be in the process of recovering. You might argue the example I listed about taking away a move is similar, but it isn't. If they suddenly switched button inputs on you where A and B and X and Y where jumbled up, that would be an equivalent example.

Walls forcing you to play differently don't make them bad in and of themselves, just something you rather not adapt to. Reversing the player's control to screw with them is bad whether or not it is something you can adapt to. That is the big difference that I think is being unsaid and instead people want to argue about what is fun or what has a bigger effect on one's playstyle.

 

[GFooChombey]

just something you rather not adapt to.

Exactly why I don't like this stage. Couldn't all stage dislikes be broken down to this? We're all just expressing our opinions here anyways.