Official Stage Discussion

[shapular]

Yoshi's Island is great. Easy neutral. Nothing more to say. Support Ghosts wouldn't be a problem if there was actual landing lag from up B's. Maybe they could be on a timer instead of random.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

Support Ghosts on a timer instead of random would be fantastic, especially if the timer is divisible by 10 so that the players can predict where it will be based on the clock.

(Or are the white shy guys meant to show when a support ghost will appear? That would be cool too.)

 

[GFooChombey]

IIRC, this stage is supposed to/will have timed Blarggwich movement. Otherwise, this is one of my favorite stages to play on. Ivysaur benefits from the shy guys and the platforms create the Randall effect.

To the people who dislike the shy guys - I respect your opinion, but if you strip away every non-platform hazard, it wouldn't be a Smash game. We have plenty of stages with just platforms anyways. If we can deal with them in Melee, tornadoes on occasion in 64, and stages like Halberd, these little guys shouldn't be a big deal.


Edit: I'd like to add a personal thought. I feel when a vanilla stage has been altered, it should also receive some visual changes so players know right away that it isn't vanilla and new players won't get hit off guard by something. Doesn't need to be anything big, but something. The white shy guy is a great example of this.

 

[Blitzus]

I dig the white shy guys.

I would make the max height of the Randalls in Yoshi's Brawl lower.
If they're meant for recovery and tech chasing, I feel like being just an extension of the main platform... is a missed opportunity.

Also make some attacks go through shy guys. I think somebody already mentioned Luigi's side b. If you could hit the shy guys (for Lucario aura charge/Solar Beam), but still somehow give them a way to be.... transcendent? That would be nice.

 

[TreK]

I think the blarggwiches should both appear at the same time every time and be on a set timer.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Am I the only one uncertain about the properties for the white shy guys? Are the previous shy guys being replaced with the white ones, or are they new additions? Can you land blows on them and prevent projectiles/certain recoveries?

Asides from the standard Shy guys having the ability to screw things up, I'd say the stage is fine how it is, maybe a little more warning when our ghost platform friend shows up, but other than that, great.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

Yoshi's Island Brawl is one of the best counterpick stages:


-It has a subtly tilting platform, which is unique and interesting but not janky or annoying

-The support ghosts cause just enough chaos (although it would be nice if their appearance was more predictable like Randall)

-One of the few stages with walls

-It actually gives many characters clear advantages, so it works the way a counterpick stage should work

-It's pretty as ****

 

[Cubelarooso]

Skyworld's pretty cool. Makes good use of a symmetry to have some cool elements. I pretty much think it's fine the way it is.
But… I like a Price is Right approach to stages: Cram as much in without going overboard. An easy place to look for ideas is the Brawl version.
Skyworld could have that little fly-by platform, but place its path above the stage to make it distinct from Randall/the Blarggwiches. Then it could be used both to stage spike even when onstage, and to ceiling tech without making everyone immortal. It could occasionally flip (be it along the x- or z-axis) to smack down anyone who tries to camp on it. Actually, this is sounding like Kid Icarus's Monoliths, which could bring some much-needed flavor to the stage.
If it's possible to make a platform destructible but still pass-through, such could be done to the top platform. That way, characters that have difficulty reaching it could just eliminate it, and it could be used to block vertical projectiles.


As a Luigi main, I dislike Yoshi's Island, but I love it as Pikachu.
I think it's a good stage with a nice number of fair elements. The shy guys are irruptive enough to be interactive, and not so much that the players aren't still accountable for what happens (but I do think any stage hitboxes should only provide limited Solar Beam charge, or none if that's the only option). If those guys are an indicator for the Blarggwiches then the stage is basically perfect.
Although, maybe the white shy guy could… look a bit… less spooky.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Maybe a white will fly across, indicating the ghost will appear left, and the black shy guy will appear, indicating it will appear right?

Oh, and maybe make them intangible? Or enough so that Ivy can't recover her ass so much with em

EDIT:

GUYS
PLZ
Make Skyworld instead of being bright and cheery dark with thunderstorms in the background and rain effects! And an epic Metal Cover of Kid Icarus or something
Dawg that'd be so cool ....

 

[shapular]

Since people keep mentioning Solarbeam, I'm going to propose the obvious and best solution: take it out of the game. That move should never have existed.

 

[Rᴏb]

Since people keep mentioning Solarbeam, I'm going to propose the obvious and best solution: take it out of the game. That move should never have existed.

You're being silly.
Wouldn't a less intrusive method of fixing solarbeam be to make Ivysaur's bulb moves only heal off of living things rather than inanimate stage elements? Taking it out is too extreme especially when there isn't anything wrong with the move itself.

 

[Blitzus]

Maybe a white will fly across, indicating the ghost will appear left, and the black shy guy will appear, indicating it will appear right?

Oh, and maybe make them intangible? Or enough so that Ivy can't recover her *** so much with em

EDIT:

GUYS
PLZ
Make Skyworld instead of being bright and cheery dark with thunderstorms in the background and rain effects! And an epic Metal Cover of Kid Icarus or something
Dawg that'd be so cool ....

Thunder Battle maybe?

Dark Pit's theme?

Rawk Hawk?

 

[Boiko]

Ness main, have a love/hate relationship with the Shy Guys. I can activate PK Fire pillars on them, which is cool. They eat my recovery...a lot.

I'm not a huge fan of the stage, but I agree with the consensus that support ghosts should be on a timer or there should be some sort of visual indicator. Randomness is the reason items were removed in the first place, right?

 

[shapular]

You're being silly.
Wouldn't a less intrusive method of fixing solarbeam be to make Ivysaur's bulb moves only heal off of living things rather than inanimate stage elements? Taking it out is too extreme especially when there isn't anything wrong with the move itself.

Not being silly. It's bad enough that such an overbearing attack is in the game, but to also function as a move that lets Ivysaur force an approach from anywhere without having to actually show any sort of aggression towards the opponent? That's what's silly.

 

[Boiko]

Not being silly. It's bad enough that such an overbearing attack is in the game, but to also function as a move that lets Ivysaur force an approach from anywhere without having to actually show any sort of aggression towards the opponent? That's what's silly.

Save it for a different topic. It doesn't exactly belong here.

 

[shapular]

Save it for a different topic. It doesn't exactly belong here.

It does, in a sense. People bring up things like Smashville balloon, Shy Guys, etc. as if they're a problem with the stage because of Solarbeam, when it's really a problem with the move itself.

 

[Boiko]

It does, in a sense. People bring up things like Smashville balloon, Shy Guys, etc. as if they're a problem with the stage because of Solarbeam, when it's really a problem with the move itself.

1.) It's not that fantastic of a move and it certainly doesn't force any sort of approach.
2.) A more reasonable approach would be to not let it heal/charge on things like shy guys/baloon.

 

[Soft Serve]

I like yoshis brawl. Suprisingly I think the stage is one of the best things smash 4 did, minus blastzones. The slants are tamer, and the platform rotates less.

Timed support ghosts, maybe move them out or make them slightly smaller, and decrease the rotation of the platform just a tiny bit. Also, have the platform on a uniform timer, and have the ghosts spear on the side it is tilted too. Randall has a visual cue as well (the stop sign elephant is on the side Randal is on) so it wouldn't be that strange.

Basically put the stage movements timed on nice intervals and I'd be really happy.

I don't like shy guys. They were interesting in melee because they didn't get in the way much, and hitting them caused hitstun and made your move last longer, which could help you or give them more time to punish you.
In pm, I don't like them. They come in from areas that can kill nesses pk thunder if he is trying to sweetspot from above. Wolf can side b them and then jump up b which is sick. My big gripe is how they interact with characters that get charges for hitting things. I have similar gripes about the smashvile balloon. It just feels like I get cheesed when they show up and lucario gets another aura charge before I react, or ivy gets a full solar beam and heals for who knows how much, just for being on a particular side of the stage at the time.
I'd remove them from being able to be hit. They are nice flavor, and can just be seen, not interacted With.

After you make your changes, change the color scheme or some other visual element so people know it's not the old vanilla stage.

 

[skellitorman]

I like some aspects of the stage, but I would like to know why it is necessary for the support ghost to appear.

 

[Rᴏb]

^It's not necessary, but it adds variety and imbues a little more awareness. It'll be better once they're set to a timer.

Not being silly. It's bad enough that such an overbearing attack is in the game, but to also function as a move that lets Ivysaur force an approach from anywhere without having to actually show any sort of aggression towards the opponent? That's what's silly.

I disagree. Moves that force the opponent to approach in the way you described are not new to smash and are certainly not exclusive to Ivysaur. Things like DK's, Samus', Mewtwo's, Lucario's, Lucas', and even Squirtle's neutralb serve the same purpose, the only thing is Ivy's is arguably one of the best and that's okay. The way her neutralb and solarbeam system work aren't inherently bad, it's just the unforeseen effect that stage elements happen to create an upswing in this system.

And I wouldn't say that solarbeam is overbearing, it's more like Ivy's design in general is. I guarantee you that she will be less stupid in 3.5 and the change to inanimate stage elements not contributing to her charge/healing her will be implemented.

As for my thoughts on Yoshi's Island in general- I like the stage. I don't think any changes to it need to be made other than the whole Ivysaur issue and the side platforms being put on a timer, but I'm sure you guys already addressed that. Though, I wouldn't mind the edges becoming less slanted and the middle platform rotating less. The aesthetics of the stage are great and I personally think it is the best looking stage in Brawl. Any new aesthetic additions would be icing on the cake.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Woo, every 25 seconds and Ness's PK Thunder goes through ghosts. I'm satisfied with that.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

For those who didn't realize, Blog Post #9 is up and it discusses the changes to Yoshi's Island Brawl.

I personally am super excited about the support ghosts now. They're on a timer like Randall, and the white shy guy announces their appearance. I LOVE IT. I will be playing this stage way more once 3.5 comes out.

Good work, PMDT.


EDIT: Wait, hold on, "They now appear approximately every 25 seconds, with each Ghost appearing 15 seconds after the previous one." So do they appear every 25 seconds, or every 15 seconds? Or am I a stupid?

EDIT EDIT: Never mind, it makes sense now. I forgot to take into account the amount of time that the support ghosts would be onscreen before going away.

 

[Player -0]

The actual platforms seem like they appear every 25 seconds with the ghosts appearing 10 seconds before this. I feel like the math is a bit off if that's what it's talking about.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

EDIT: Wait, hold on, "They now appear approximately every 25 seconds, with each Ghost appearing 15 seconds after the previous one." So do they appear every 25 seconds, or every 15 seconds? Or am I a stupid?

I'm assuming they appear within 25 seconds of the start of the match, one ghosts pops, and then the other after 15 seconds, then they go back to the 25 seconds to start the cycle again.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

Oh wait, duh. A support ghost appears every 25 seconds, and it is there for 10 seconds before going away, and then the next ghost appears 15 seconds after the previous one has disappeared.

I know how to math.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Oh wait, duh. The support ghosts appear every 25 seconds, and they are there for 10 seconds before going away, and then the next ghost appears 15 seconds after the previous one has disappeared.

That's quite possible too.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I'd like to say that, in general, I think having something both have an indicator and be on a timer is unnecessary. Still better than neither, though.
Didn't know that about the White Shy Guys. That's the kind of creative, illuminating use of Nintendo licenses that I love from Smash.

 

[Sandfall]

Oh wait, duh. A support ghost appears every 25 seconds, and it is there for 10 seconds before going away, and then the next ghost appears 15 seconds after the previous one has disappeared.

I know how to math.

Yup! That's pretty much it

 

[CBO0tz]

Just wondering, now that Shy Guys are intangible, would it be possible to re-add them to Yoshi's Story too?

 

[Strong Badam]

They're not intangible; only Ness's PK Thunder is affected. And no, it's not possible to port them over to Yoshi's Story.

 

[trash?]

good stage, fun layout, I'm glad that there's a mostly universally-enjoyed stage that isn't a flat design

if the white shy guys are visual indicators of the support ghosts, then the stage pretty much becomes flawless in my eyes

 

[jtm94]

Still dislike the stage, but this is fun.

When is Whispy Woods losing his ability to blow and shake the camera?

 

[Sandfall]

When is Whispy Woods losing his ability to blow and shake the camera?

Never, if I can help it. It wouldn't be Dreamland without the wind (the shaking will get removed if we ever figure out how to do it).

Anyway, this week's discussion is about Yoshi's Island: Brawl, so let's stick to that please.

 

[A6stringthing (A6ST)]

Sweet! I was planning on throwing a smashfest sometime after the release of 3.5, looks like I can re-add Yoshi's Island back to the stage list!

 

[shapular]

Never, if I can help it. It wouldn't be Dreamland without the wind (the shaking will get removed if we ever figure out how to do it).

Anyway, this week's discussion is about Yoshi's Island: Brawl, so let's stick to that please.

Why would you guys go out of your way to remove hazards from a lot of stages and then put that one in? It's even worse since for some reason people think it's an actual legal stage, even a neutral sometimes.

 

[Sandfall]

Why would you guys go out of your way to remove hazards from a lot of stages and then put that one in? It's even worse since for some reason people think it's an actual legal stage, even a neutral sometimes.

While I wasn't on the dev team when Dreamland was added to the game, it was likely done do that the stage matched its Melee/Smash 64 counterpart as closely as possible. Many people (myself included) would be upset if we made such a change to a classic stage. Dreamland without the wind really wouldn't be Dreamland anymore. While these types of hazards definitely impact gameplay, they've been shown to be fairly manageable and predictable.

While it is important to make sure we have stages that are viable for competitive play, it's also important to preserve the artistic integrity of the stage. You've got to draw the line somewhere.

 

[shapular]

While I wasn't on the dev team when Dreamland was added to the game, it was likely done do that the stage matched its Melee/Smash 64 counterpart as closely as possible. Many people (myself included) would be upset if we made such a change to a classic stage. Dreamland without the wind really wouldn't be Dreamland anymore. While these types of hazards definitely impact gameplay, they've been shown to be fairly manageable and predictable.

While it is important to make sure we have stages that are viable for competitive play, it's also important to preserve the artistic integrity of the stage. You've got to draw the line somewhere.

You guys fixed other stages that didn't need to be fixed. Even Battlefield, of all things. The stage didn't need to be added in the first place, but to leave in a bad aspect that nobody liked and then put it on the bottom row, effectively proclaiming it a neutral? Kind of silly. The wind in Dreamland isn't nearly as integral to the stage as, for example, the microgames are to WarioWare, but you took those out.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Stage placement doesn't matter for determining if said stage is neutral or counterpick, the PMDT don't make the tourney rules and if people choose to make it so it is out of their hands.

 

[Sandfall]

You guys fixed other stages that didn't need to be fixed. Even Battlefield, of all things. The stage didn't need to be added in the first place, but to leave in a bad aspect that nobody liked and then put it on the bottom row, effectively proclaiming it a neutral? Kind of silly. The wind in Dreamland isn't nearly as integral to the stage as, for example, the microgames are to WarioWare, but you took those out.

Again, I was not a part of the Dev team when those stage changes were implemented, so I cannot speak for those decisions. However, Project M has changed a lot over the years, and design philosophies that are held now may not be the exactly the same as those held when the project was first started (this is true for virtually any ongoing project). Also the value of these types of stage hazards is subjective. Some people like them, some do not. It's all a matter of personal preference.

Anyway, as much as I'd love to debate stage design philosophies, we're wandering off-topic here.
Please make sure all further discussion pertains to Yoshi's Island: Brawl.

Also, since the new version of this stage has been officially revealed, pretty much any questions about it are fair game. If you have any, feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer.

 

[GFooChombey]

Also, since the new version of this stage has been officially revealed, pretty much any questions about it are fair game. If you have any, feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer.

So the regular shy guys are still in the foreground and can give my Ivysaur some charge? Will the white shy guy do a fun dance before flying away? Are there any plans to make minor visual tweaks to other stages that have been adapted?