Official Stage Discussion

[Nefnoj]

What do people think of the camera on the Infinite Summit? I love its name, by the way.
It'd also be really cool if they added a Topi in the background or something as an aesthetic difference. Maybe put him on the stage after a while and push a block around that pushes players, I dunno, I'm brainstorming a bit...

On the Custom stage thingy I mentioned earlier in reply to a few other comments...

Spoiler

I strongly disagree. Half the viable stages already aren't used, so why introduce more? Not to mention I'd rather see the alternate stage loader be used to load aesthetic differences such as HD remakes or N64 originals, a melee-esque skin or vBrawl Battlefield, or even something like certain stages with different weather/time of day.

Oh, nononono, the alternate stage loader wouldn't be wasted on that, pah! That's an insult to the race of us casuals, hahaha! We have the science, we'll use it for SOMETHING GREATER!! I meant the unused custom stage slots, using its bugs to our advantage.
Though your other ideas are really good... If/when the Alternate Stage loader is figured out, it'd be neat if they did Casual/Tourney versions of stages, I wonder if the HD version of Metal Cavern can go over Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1, while the N64 version goes over 1-2... I'm on it!

I can't say I like that idea, mainly because I like the custom stage slots. I use my build in public, so I can't in good conscience remove anything included with the vanilla mod. And I don't want to get rid of Melee: Icicle Mountain, Smash U: Big Battlefield, SSF2: Sky Sanctuary Zone, and Dragon Ball Z: World Martial Arts Tournament in order to preserve some duplicates that people may or may not be wondering where they've gone.

Yeah, me too, didn't think about that, I like the slots too, but also dislike removing content.

 

[SunJester]

Infinite Glacier:

Pros:

+ I really like the added features, such as the balloon fighter and the polar bears in the background, they're nice touches.

+ I really love the level design, the idea of everyone wavedashing like Luigi makes for a really awesome concept for a level.

+ Keeping the fish, one of my favourite hazards.



Suggestions:

The stage feels very...white. It could use a bit more colour. One thing the original Summit had over this is the ice textures were really nice and still managed to have a bit of colour in them. The current textures on infinite glacier aren't bad by any means, but they lack a bit of pop to them.

I also think the main stage could use a bit of TLC to make it a bit more interesting. How about that polar bear from summit walking around in the background? Or a Topi?


Biased ideas: (These ones you don't have to do but are things i kinda want, but might not be possible or be entirely too much work, so don't take them too seriously)

I really liked the low gravity part where you slid down the hill before. I think I'd like it if the cycle was shorter. It just made the stage really over the top and fun. (Though I'm aware I'm one of the few that probably thinks this)

I think adding in the seal enemy from ice climbers would fit really well with the stage. I don't think there's already a model in the game (like there is for the polar bear) but having the seal maybe slide down the stage and into the water (or something else) would really give the stage some character. Kinda like when kaepora gaebora shows up on hyrule.

Also I'd really like it if the clouds were more common.



Also I know the talk on distant planet is already finished, but I love all the aesthetics of that stage other than the centre two platforms are kinda plain looking.

Everything else on that stage looks great though.

 

[Nefnoj]

Infinite Glacier:

Pros:

+ I really like the added features, such as the balloon fighter and the polar bears in the background, they're nice touches.

+ I really love the level design, the idea of everyone wavedashing like Luigi makes for a really awesome concept for a level.

+ Keeping the fish, one of my favourite hazards.



Suggestions:

The stage feels very...white. It could use a bit more colour. One thing the original Summit had over this is the ice textures were really nice and still managed to have a bit of colour in them. The current textures on infinite glacier aren't bad by any means, but they lack a bit of pop to them.

I also think the main stage could use a bit of TLC to make it a bit more interesting. How about that polar bear from summit walking around in the background? Or a Topi?


Biased ideas: (These ones you don't have to do but are things i kinda want, but might not be possible or be entirely too much work, so don't take them too seriously)

I really liked the low gravity part where you slid down the hill before. I think I'd like it if the cycle was shorter. It just made the stage really over the top and fun. (Though I'm aware I'm one of the few that probably thinks this)

I think adding in the seal enemy from ice climbers would fit really well with the stage. I don't think there's already a model in the game (like there is for the polar bear) but having the seal maybe slide down the stage and into the water (or something else) would really give the stage some character. Kinda like when kaepora gaebora shows up on hyrule.

Also I'd really like it if the clouds were more common.



Also I know the talk on distant planet is already finished, but I love all the aesthetics of that stage other than the centre two platforms are kinda plain looking.

Everything else on that stage looks great though.

I like you.

I love the seal idea, they can import that, or for us Americans, the little yeti guys, they're internationally known as "Topi"! and the gravity idea, but since the stage seems to be based more on wave-dashing, it might interrupt it, I like the colour idea, but it'll definitely be tricky: They'd have to make it contrast from the water and glaciers in the background, while making the stage still look like solid, smooth ice!

 

[Jake The Preacher]

I'm thinking of offering an argument against two stages being banned at my locals, can you guys give me the pros and cons to make sure I'm not whining about it or if they should legit be gone? The stages are Skyworld and Norfair

 

[Cubelarooso]

Pro: More stages
Con: More stages

If you want to be convincing, you must find out why they are banned in the first place.
Ask your TO about their philosophy: What do they think makes a good stage? What makes a good stage list? Why should something be banned, and why should something be legal?

 

[Nefnoj]

I'm thinking of offering an argument against two stages being banned at my locals, can you guys give me the pros and cons to make sure I'm not whining about it or if they should legit be gone? The stages are Skyworld and Norfair

If you want to be convincing, you must find out why they are banned in the first place.
Ask your TO about their philosophy: What do they think makes a good stage? What makes a good stage list? Why should something be banned, and why should something be legal?

And when you do, let us know why they're banned, now I'm curious!

 

[Jake The Preacher]

And when you do, let us know why they're banned, now I'm curious!

It appears that they are "Too large" even though I'm fairly certain that the only difference between them and dreamland is the actual stage and the ceilings. They also have bad ledges for recovering low, also Norfair's platforms make it "impossible" to get a lot of follow ups

 

[Player -0]

Lylat is an amazing stage. Depends on the other stages for what'll be in the stage list though, Norfair and Skyworld would allow for bigger blastzone but simultaneously a bigger stage, so good Falcon stages hype.

 

[Jake The Preacher]

Lylat is an amazing stage. Depends on the other stages for what'll be in the stage list though, Norfair and Skyworld would allow for bigger blastzone but simultaneously a bigger stage, so good Falcon stages hype.

Apologies that I offended your choice of Lylat, maybe it's an inside joke where I live that no one likes Lylat. I just feel like there aren't a lot of big stages in the Paragon ruleset, probably just me though

 

[Player -0]

Apologies that I offended your choice of Lylat, maybe it's an inside joke where I live that no one likes Lylat. I just feel like there aren't a lot of big stages in the Paragon ruleset, probably just me though

I'm looking at: http://paragon.vsgaming.org/rules and I don't see Lylat on the stage list?

The Paragon stage list is overall fairly medium/small besides DL and FD (YI:B I feel is kind of big but idk, there's a stage comparison thread somewhere). Skyworld or Norfair should definitely be swapped for some of the smaller stages on that stagelist.

 

[Jake The Preacher]

I'm looking at: http://paragon.vsgaming.org/rules and I don't see Lylat on the stage list?

The Paragon stage list is overall fairly medium/small besides DL and FD (YI:B I feel is kind of big but idk, there's a stage comparison thread somewhere). Skyworld or Norfair should definitely be swapped for some of the smaller stages on that stagelist.

Whoops, I must be thinking of a different tournament I'm going to, well I just made myself look dumb to my TO. I'd call FD a medium or big small stage because there're no platforms, which, to me at least, takes away from stage size/depth. Ugh, I just hate when changes are made that affect some of my bigger things

 

[GFooChombey]

Not that this isn't a good discussion, but that should go elsewhere. This thread is for discussing opinions on specific stages when @ Sandfall sees fit.

 

[Sandfall]

Sorry for not updating more often, I've been really busy with college and things slipped my mind ^_^;
I'll get better I promise

Anyway, this time we'll be talking about a stage that was heavily revamped in 3.5: Norfair!

 

[Narpas_sword]

I love norfair. Except that missile cancels dont work well. it's ironically a decent pick vs samus for that reason.

 

[Guilu]

Norfair is banned where I play. Local TO tells me the platforms are too large to allow for followups, and that it overall advantages Fox too much. Stage always felt fairly low, and I personally like its verticality, but I have to follow.

For the record, I play Bowser and said local TO plays Marth.

 

[mimgrim]

Norfair is banned where I play. Local TO tells me the platforms are too large to allow for followups, and that it overall advantages Fox too much. Stage always felt fairly low, and I personally like its verticality, but I have to follow.

For the record, I play Bowser and said local TO plays Marth.

I thought Fox disliked Norfair. o_O

 

[GFooChombey]

Well I never played the old Norfair, but I barely play this one. I think it does a good job at being a legal stage that isn't a Dreamland variation, but I just haven't found a reason to go there too often. Can I just say I'm tired of Metroid stages being lava filled though? I think we mentioned earlier or maybe in an entirely different thread that we would love to see this stage redone to represent a different place from Prime and I still agree with that.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Norfair's… alright. It's hard for me to judge it, since it's just abysmal for Luigi.
It has what seem like interesting, reasonable elements, all originating from its platforms. They're long, asymmetric, follow a unique path, and stop in a multitude of new layouts.
And yet, somehow the stage still feels really bland. Combine that with all that the Brawl version could offer, and you get a stage that's just disappointing and needs change.

I think the wall-lava and the safe zone (without the wave) would make for some good competitive gameplay, and should be integrated.
Wall combos are awesome, and the lava averts the usual outcome of tech-city. However, it maybe shouldn't cover fully half the stage.
Walls and ceilings are usually pretty degenerate, favoring camping and prolonging stocks through teching. But they can also allow some new strategies that are more competitive, and the safe zone might work out since it's fairly small and temporary. Trying to circle camp or hide under it should be difficult and ineffective due to the size, and it presents the danger of being trapped inside. Of course, being inside has the benefit of keeping one alive and invisible, but at the cost of being stationary and vulnerable. Pretty cool trade-off, if you ask me, with even more depth from the fact that one, both, or neither player could be inside.
It'd be really nice if they could appear in some deterministic, not-time-based manner, so that they don't always come at the same point in the platforms' cycles. Like, if there's two consecutive deaths on the same side of the stage then lava appears from that side, and two consecutive deaths off the top or bottom causes the safe zone to respectively appear on the main stage or one of the platforms. Or the platforms' starting points could just be randomized.

Of course, from my understanding, working with stuff like that is next to impossible. If nothing can be done to the stage, then it should just be replaced with one of the much better stages (especially my concepts of them ) on the third row or second page.

 

[Narpas_sword]

^ No no no, god no.

For once we have a metroid stage NOT trying to kill us. leave it that way. i want to play on a sage with a metroid theme.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Then how about a non-rotating Orpheon?
I want to play on a stage with wall combos.

 

[robosteven]

Non-rotating Orpheon would be awesome and needs to happen.

Anyway, I love the new Norfair. The platform height makes it feel like a larger stage than it actually is because you're not up close and personal with regular jumps allowing you access to the platforms, and while that's usually something that would bother me in Smash, I actually like it a lot. I wouldn't counterpick it ever simply because I like WarioWare, Distant Planet, PS2, Yoshi's Story and Lylat Cruise too much, but when landing on it in friendlies it's one of my favorite stages. The moving platforms definitely makes for more dynamic matches.

 

[Nefnoj]

BRING
BACK
LAVA.

 

[Narpas_sword]

BRING
BACK
LAVA.

REMOVE
THE
STAGE
AND
REL
FILE

 

[robosteven]

BRING
BACK
LAVA.

do the opposite of this

remove lava from background

 

[Cubelarooso]

REMOVE
THE
STAGE
AND
REL
FILE

SAVE
THE
STAGE
AND
REL
FILE
AND
PUT
THEM
IN
THE
NEXT
VERSION
IF
NORFAIR
IS
IMPROVED.

 

[Narpas_sword]

If it's improved, ill use the new one.

If it's 'improved' like you're saying, (i.e. ruined by adding in stupid hazards) then adding the competitive version back into your own build is stupid, as you want consistent stages between builds.

if you want horrendous stages that kill you, then you can add them in, because they're not going to be used for competitive.

 

[GFooChombey]

BRING
BACK
LAVA.

But we already have a stage with lava as a hazard.

 

[MegaMissingno]

But we already have a stage with lava as a hazard.

Technically it's acid.

Anyway, I think new Norfair is fine, though I actually liked the 3.02 version a little better.

 

[Cubelarooso]

you want consistent stages between builds.

This would also apply to deleting the current version; a suggestion which, by the way, results in something much worse.

I want good stages - and a good stage list - that add as much quality play to the game as possible.

All stages kill you. The only way to die is as a result of a stage. One of the most characteristically-Smash facets of competetition is managing one's own (and opponent's) stage position. This really isn't the series for someone not interested in doing that.

And your argument is sorta ironic when the current Norfair isn't being used.

 

[Narpas_sword]

not all stages kill you.

if you put your character in the middle of most stages, and leave the controller, you don't die.
On lava/ acid raising stages you do. That's what i'm talking about.

And Norfair gets used on some TO lists. and that's why i want improvement, so it will be used on more.
i certainly dont want it turned into another brinstar where i play it ones a year because of the music then go '**** this ****' and quit.

 

[Nefnoj]

REMOVE
THE
STAGE
AND
REL
FILE

But then it's not Project M-y...
I like the Project M stage structure... But I miss mah hazards. Without 'em, it just feels like a Fountain of Dreams or a Castlevania clone.

 

[Narpas_sword]

i dont think 'clone' is quite the word you're looking for...

 

[Nefnoj]

i dont think 'clone' is quite the word you're looking for...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk
I thought I'd use a word that evokes strong emotion in the Smash community!

 

[Cubelarooso]

if you put your character in the middle of most stages, and leave the controller, you don't die.

That's not really competitive play.
Lava wouldn't kill someone in the middle if it didn't reach the middle (a scenario I explicitly proposed), nor even someone that's onstage if it didn't reach onstage, nor anyone at all if it were triggered by certain player activity. Yet it would still add new, fun, deep strategies and interactions to the game, and make for a more well-rounded stage.

I don't want it turned into another Dracula's Castle/Skyloft/Rumble Falls/etc. that serves mostly to fill out rulesets by being superficially harmless. Then it's phased out of usage due to its meager offering of interesting competitive elements being out-weighed by it being slightly-yet-distinctly skewed in certain matchups (often a symptom of its limited elements), adding more time and significance to the part of a match that takes place on menus, and not having "because Melee." Then, because of a prevalent misinterpretation of the meaning of "competitive," it's eventually moved to the second page in a new release rather than being revamped to make full use of the tools that the Brawl stage provides in a way that's competitive yet unconventional. (The current convention, of course, being to adhere to practices that were fine-tuned for use with some other game that cannot be changed and that was made by a guy who thinks the most fair, competitive stage in a game with Little Mac is Final Destination.) Then it just sits there, unused, unnecessary, a victim of the community's flawed conception of stage design, and a teasing reminder of what new depths tournament-scene Smash could have explored.
I don't want that.

 

[Narpas_sword]

no, what you seem to want is an annoying level that has hazards that gets chucked itno the 'why would we even play that on friendlies' basket.

Keep lava off.

all i want is ONE metroid stage without hazards.

 

[Nefnoj]

That's not really competitive play.
Lava wouldn't kill someone in the middle if it didn't reach the middle (a scenario I explicitly proposed), nor even someone that's onstage if it didn't reach onstage, nor anyone at all if it were triggered by certain player activity. Yet it would still add new, fun, deep strategies and interactions to the game, and make for a more well-rounded stage.

I love this idea, but I don't know if it's possible. The reason being the little safety pod that shows up. I don't know if the Project M team have the power to change where it spawns, or the ability to determine whether or not a certain area protects your hiney from being scorched. If I am correct, the highest they could move the main platform is the base of that pod thingy, and I don't know if that's high enough. Luckily, the other two platforms are big enough to play on without being burnt to a crisp. As for the other locations that the Pod spawns, it seems to spawn in areas in close proximity to the platforms, making it easy to access.

no, what you seem to want is an annoying level that has hazards that gets chucked itno the 'why would we even play that on friendlies' basket.
Keep lava off.
all i want is ONE metroid stage without hazards.

Calm down, matey! There's no harm in satisfying us casuals, is there? It's only one stage!

This is why it'd be neat if we had an official Casual addon for Project M, akin to the Wifi addon they have, until they figure out the alternate stage loader. Competitives like you can duke it out in tournaments as much as you like, while us casuals can turn our items on high, and watch as the stage destroys our enemies so we don't have to!

 

[Narpas_sword]

"it's only one stage."

One Metroid stage that hasn't got hazards.

Zebes - Acid
Brinstar - Acid
Brinstar Depths - Kraid spinning the level
Frigate - Flipping (why did it even do this? it had nothing like this in prime)
Norfair Brawl - lava

PM - Norfair without hazards.

Stop trying to change the one and ONLY metroid stage that has no hazards back to having hazards.
you've got brinstar if you want acid jumping up and down.

 

[Sandfall]

We aren't gonna add hazards back to Norfair guys, don't worry

 

[Nefnoj]

We aren't gonna add hazards back to Norfair guys, don't worry

 

[Saikyoshi]

I liked 3.02 Norfair better, honestly. It felt more unique than 3.5 Norfair.