Official Stage Discussion

[Soft Serve]

Why remove the rain?

I dont dislike the rain, but there are at least 3 people just in my scene that have eye problems and actually can't see the stage while its raining.

 

[Saikyoshi]

The only problem I have with DP is that Pikmin music isn't really good for competitive play... so I injected Gaur Plains music into it

Soft Serve does bring up a good point with the rain, though. I mean, it's a nice touch of course, but if it makes play impossible for some people...

 

[GFooChombey]

I dont dislike the rain, but there are at least 3 people just in my scene that have eye problems and actually can't see the stage while its raining.

Interesting. I can't say I've ever heard that, but that's really unfortunate for them. I'd be a little upset if aesthetics were removed though.

 

[Nefnoj]

I know a guy who made a Crateria stage, it has rain but it's a lot more subtle, just replace the texture for the rain and it'll solve the problem for everyone.

 

[Boiko]

I know we already spoke about PS2 (I think) but I wanted to make this point without posting a whole new stage topic.
Has there been any consideration to adjusting the camera of the stage to match the Petey Piranha boss fight? I feel that the stage is pretty much the exact same dimensions, just lacking platforms. But the camera is soooo much better.

 

[himemiya]

DP is my favorite stage!

 

[Cubelarooso]

Distant Planet is a big step up from SSE Jungle, but I think it still has a ways to go before it's really a worthwhile addition.
The walls are good. They impact tactics but don't define them, and their effects can always be attributed to the players. Same goes for the leaves, but I think they should be a bit slower to rise.
The pellet posies should definitely appear, but at maybe a third the original rate. Their temporary hurtboxes could be used to stop certain approaches, block projectiles, mess with timing due to hitlag, and other cool stuff. The pellets themselves add some item play to matchups that would otherwise have none, which is great considering the PM-specific tricks they allow, plus their properties are pretty tame. Might be cool if the onions appeared and gave food even with items off.
The symmetry is lamentable, especially considering all the elements the Brawl version has to offer. If that stuff is workable at all, it's workable into a respectable interactable. Here's my proposal:

The left side is a variation of what we have now, but the leaf is like the current version's right side: higher, but sinks just as low.
The floating platform is replaced by a mushroom just because it makes more sense than a floating platform, and is made smaller and slightly protrusive just for something less common.
The other one is replaced by the loose vines, and is given the length its sibling lost. Like the leaf, the vines' behavior is player-dependent, hence absolved from johns.
The last platform is slanted outward to catch recovers. However, the vines make it a dangerous position, and any sudden rain will wash characters off-stage.
Something like this would make DP into a robust, intricate stage; one that's actually competitive rather than just another way to CP PS2.

 

[Nefnoj]

Distant Planet is a big step up from SSE Jungle, but I think it still has a ways to go before it's really a worthwhile addition.
The walls are good. They impact tactics but don't define them, and their effects can always be attributed to the players. Same goes for the leaves, but I think they should be a bit slower to rise.
The pellet posies should definitely appear, but at maybe a third the original rate. Their temporary hurtboxes could be used to stop certain approaches, block projectiles, mess with timing due to hitlag, and other cool stuff. The pellets themselves add some item play to matchups that would otherwise have none, which is great considering the PM-specific tricks they allow, plus their properties are pretty tame. Might be cool if the onions appeared and gave food even with items off.
The symmetry is lamentable, especially considering all the elements the Brawl version has to offer. If that stuff is workable at all, it's workable into a respectable interactable. Here's my proposal:

The left side is a variation of what we have now, but the leaf is like the current version's right side: higher, but sinks just as low.
The floating platform is replaced by a mushroom just because it makes more sense than a floating platform, and is made smaller and slightly protrusive just for something less common.
The other one is replaced by the loose vines, and is given the length its sibling lost. Like the leaf, the vines' behavior is player-dependent, hence absolved from johns.
The last platform is slanted outward to catch recovers. However, the vines make it a dangerous position, and any sudden rain will wash characters off-stage.
Something like this would make DP into a robust, intricate stage; one that's actually competitive rather than just another way to CP PS2.

What he said.

Also, it's more natural, since plants and things don't have such symmetry. You could probably reuse the mushroom model from the stage builder.

 

[GFooChombey]

Words.

This is extremely well thought out and I love the idea. My only concern would be passing through the vine platform from the vanilla stage which would be enough for most to consider banning it. You should consider making this yourself.

 

[Draco_The]

Next stage?

 

[himemiya]

Distant Planet is a big step up from SSE Jungle, but I think it still has a ways to go before it's really a worthwhile addition.
The walls are good. They impact tactics but don't define them, and their effects can always be attributed to the players. Same goes for the leaves, but I think they should be a bit slower to rise.
The pellet posies should definitely appear, but at maybe a third the original rate. Their temporary hurtboxes could be used to stop certain approaches, block projectiles, mess with timing due to hitlag, and other cool stuff. The pellets themselves add some item play to matchups that would otherwise have none, which is great considering the PM-specific tricks they allow, plus their properties are pretty tame. Might be cool if the onions appeared and gave food even with items off.
The symmetry is lamentable, especially considering all the elements the Brawl version has to offer. If that stuff is workable at all, it's workable into a respectable interactable. Here's my proposal:

The left side is a variation of what we have now, but the leaf is like the current version's right side: higher, but sinks just as low.
The floating platform is replaced by a mushroom just because it makes more sense than a floating platform, and is made smaller and slightly protrusive just for something less common.
The other one is replaced by the loose vines, and is given the length its sibling lost. Like the leaf, the vines' behavior is player-dependent, hence absolved from johns.
The last platform is slanted outward to catch recovers. However, the vines make it a dangerous position, and any sudden rain will wash characters off-stage.
Something like this would make DP into a robust, intricate stage; one that's actually competitive rather than just another way to CP PS2.

But I want distant planet to remain neutral, theres nothing wrong with its current state.

 

[Cubelarooso]

It could be a Starter like that. Why couldn't it? Heck, pretty much all a stage has to do to be considered "Neutral" is be on the bottom row.
In its current state it doesn't really add to the game, especially considering what it could offer. Like I said, the walls and leaves are neat, but overall it's basically just PS2 Lite, and there's no reason for a stagelist to have both. Because of that (and it being on the side of the SSS), DP is banned at many tournaments in my area, despite being much more competitive of the two.
Making DP more distinct would get us a cool stage, remove a redundant one, and effectively increase the roster size.

 

[MegaMissingno]

How is a 4 platform stage redundant with a 2 platform one?

 

[Cubelarooso]

Large size, low ceiling, medium floor. The floating platforms have essentially the same height, width, and distance from edge. The leaves hardly come into play except during recovery, and when they do they sink down to the other platforms' height.
Even more so if PS2 gets a much-needed reduction.

How is it not redundant? Who would CP one but not the other?
How is my proposal not Starter-worthy, when such a distinction has been given to stages such as Dreamland, YS, and FD?

 

[himemiya]

How is my proposal not Starter-worthy, when such a distinction has been given to stages such as Dreamland, YS, and FD?

For dreamland its been confirmed they'll remaster the imported 64 stages and as for fd its for separating the mod from brawl and melee to make it its own game (Although I wish they'd make an original designed battlefield to further separate its self). I'm just gonna say you should just delete the pm stage + rel if you want a more casual oriented dp, no janky changes needed.

 

[Cubelarooso]

The question was: Given historic "criteria" for Starters, what about my proposal would necessarily invalidate DP as one?
The answer is that Starters follow no strict criteria, and are rarely effectively challenged.


The intent isn't to make it more casual. It's to make it more competitive, by adding a variety of subtle, non-intrusive stage elements that both players can integrate into their strategy - during the match and during selection - particularly in a way that does not revolve around camping or lopsiding the matchup. A varied stagelist is desirable for how gratifying it is for the player - and exciting it is for the audience - to make spontaneous, creative use of something(s) rather minor. Moreover, the greater variety of elements there are, the less likely a stage is to entirely favor any singular character, and the less redundancy there is in the stagelist. These elements should behave predictably and intuitively, not cause play to deviate far or long from Smash essentials, and generally broaden the players' real options. IE, not be "jank."

The ideal roster would consist of a barebones core (composed of archetypical layouts akin to BF, PS2, Smashville, and probably a couple others, with normalized dimensions) for use as Starters (so players may get a feel of just their opponents, before making things more complex) or in conservative stagelists (for which stage variety is a time-wasting inconvenience). The rest would each make use of as many elements as Brawl allows (without becoming hectic, of course), strive to not fit any specific abusable role, and would be centralized around a standard of balance set by the core.

Stage selection should be like character selection, where choices are based more on personal preference than on what makes winning easier. If players uniformly counterpick a certain character, that's a balance issue. If players uniformly counterpick a certain stage, that's a balance issue.

Additionally, I feel the current CP'ing process does not accommodate a larger (in size and scope) stagelist. Something to try is: Loser picks 3 (or 4, or 2) stages, then winner chooses from those. This would streamline the process and eliminate the issue of a player dealing with an element they specifically despise, and is something to remember when viewing my posts.

PM has the chance to circumvent the ad hoc approach the community has had to take to make do with Smash stages, and I really think it should. The design and rules of stages in PM should be made deliberately, beginning by specifying a goal, such as I have here endorsed. A few posts back are my thoughts on how DP might fit into this philosophy, and while that is not "as a Starter," I think the basics of 3.5 DP would be present in the core.

 

[GFooChombey]

The question was: Given historic "criteria" for Starters, what about my proposal would necessarily invalidate DP as one?
The answer is that Starters follow no strict criteria, and are rarely effectively challenged.


The intent isn't to make it more casual. It's to make it more competitive, by adding a variety of subtle, non-intrusive stage elements that both players can integrate into their strategy - during the match and during selection - particularly in a way that does not revolve around camping or lopsiding the matchup. A varied stagelist is desirable for how gratifying it is for the player - and exciting it is for the audience - to make spontaneous, creative use of something(s) rather minor. Moreover, the greater variety of elements there are, the less likely a stage is to entirely favor any singular character, and the less redundancy there is in the stagelist. These elements should behave predictably and intuitively, not cause play to deviate far or long from Smash essentials, and generally broaden the players' real options. IE, not be "jank."

The ideal roster would consist of a barebones core (composed of archetypical layouts akin to BF, PS2, Smashville, and probably a couple others, with normalized dimensions) for use as Starters (so players may get a feel of just their opponents, before making things more complex) or in conservative stagelists (for which stage variety is a time-wasting inconvenience). The rest would each make use of as many elements as Brawl allows (without becoming hectic, of course), strive to not fit any specific abusable role, and would be centralized around a standard of balance set by the core.

Stage selection should be like character selection, where choices are based more on personal preference than on what makes winning easier. If players uniformly counterpick a certain character, that's a balance issue. If players uniformly counterpick a certain stage, that's a balance issue.

Additionally, I feel the current CP'ing process does not accommodate a larger (in size and scope) stagelist. Something to try is: Loser picks 3 (or 4, or 2) stages, then winner chooses from those. This would streamline the process and eliminate the issue of a player dealing with an element they specifically despise, and is something to remember when viewing my posts.

PM has the chance to circumvent the ad hoc approach the community has had to take to make do with Smash stages, and I really think it should. The design and rules of stages in PM should be made deliberately, beginning by specifying a goal, such as I have here endorsed. A few posts back are my thoughts on how DP might fit into this philosophy, and while that is not "as a Starter," I think the basics of 3.5 DP would be present in the core.

Hopefully I didn't misunderstand your point, but here's a response.
Counterpicks in PM have become really stale simply because there are so many viable stages. Instead of every main Smash game where something is a counterpick because it has a small level of jank and may favor one character, PM counterpicks consist of "well what has bigger blast zones?" or "which has the better platform setup for me?" It's kind of a damn shame that we've become so sterile, but I guess that's the nature of the beast. I wish PS1, Delfino, and Halberd would return to page one just because they are traditional counterpicks.

 

[Cubelarooso]

That's kinda what I'm driving at, but how you describe PM's counterpicking is how I'd describe counterpicking for every Smash, and I think it's not how it should be.
"What has bigger blast zones?" amounts to "Does this stage favor my character?" Ideally, every stage should have negligible effects on a character's viability. I think this could be best achieved by introducing a variety of stage elements with effects dependent on how a player uses them, rather than what character they're playing.
If I may ask, how do you understand my point? I want it as comprehensible as I can get it.

 

[GFooChombey]

I took that you think we need more variety in our stages and not just by adding platforms and/or increasing blastzones. AKA keeping Smash like Smash.

Edit: Next stage when?

 

[Rᴏb]

The music is horrible.

I think it would be really beneficial to try Cubelarooso's idea.

 

[GFooChombey]

The music is horrible.

You mean you haven't replaced Ai no Uta with Pikmin 3 music yet? Shame on you.

 

[CORY]

All nujabes all the time, imo

 

[4tlas]

I think one of the things that makes Smash great is that we have different stages that do different things and play differently. I think an ideal world would have a few stages for starters with slightly different stats so that we pick a neutral stage from them, and then several very different stages available for counterpicks. Asymmetrical is a great place to start with interesting stages, and a good place to end them is one tiny gimmick, such as the moving platforms on Smashville, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story, Yoshi's Island, and Distant Planet (which make things asymmetrical by virtue of moving)

 

[SOJ]

I know we already spoke about PS2 (I think) but I wanted to make this point without posting a whole new stage topic.
Has there been any consideration to adjusting the camera of the stage to match the Petey Piranha boss fight? I feel that the stage is pretty much the exact same dimensions, just lacking platforms. But the camera is soooo much better.

I'll look into it, but it currently has the camera from PS1 so I wouldn't want to mess with Melee players too much.

 

[himemiya]

All nujabes all the time, imo

I use nights journey of dream mainly.

Atm I'd rather discuss on original designs for battlefield that pmbr could use for the next build.

 

[Sandfall]

Thanks for the feedback!

We'll now be discussing a new casual stage that was added to 3.5: Infinite Glacier!

This stage is based on Summit, but the gameplay is so heavily altered that it didn't resemble Summit anymore, so we gave it a new name. I designed the gameplay for this stage, so I'm personally really interested (and slightly scared) to hear what you all have to say about this one!

 

[themaziest]

My casual favorite, being a long time fan of the Ice Climbers game.

Gameplay-wise, it's a lot of fun thanks to the broken wavedashes on the ice. The lurking fish is of course greatly entertaining and definitively needs to stay. It's also a real pleasure to see the ballon guy and the polar bear having fun in the background. That being said, I think the glacier itself could be visually improved, because it's currently very bright and lacks of detail in comparison to Brawl's Summit. I find that the texture is too slick, the corners are too sharp, and the footbridge is not enough incorporated to the platform (in terms of graphics).

But it's way more appealing to me than Summit ever was.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Ice is a ton of fun, but the droppy platform thing is a pain in the ass.

 

[Player -0]

If there's a way to cancel the lag from entering water (if you're not hit into it) can it be implemented? It's really annoying to try to jump out of the water and it doesn't work or the fish eats you.

 

[Sandfall]

If there's a way to cancel the lag from entering water (if you're not hit into it) can it be implemented? It's really annoying to try to jump out of the water and it doesn't work or the fish eats you.

Every character has a way to reduce the lag from entering the water. Snake, for example will usually get munched on by the fish if he falls into the water. However, if you do a bair before you enter the water, he should have enough time to jump out.

 

[GFooChombey]

I really enjoy this stage and hope we get more casual love like this in PM's future.

Spoiler

Don't get the impression that I'm a casual purist, because I enjoy competitive play just as much as casual, but it can be hard to justify playing PM to a crowd that has no interest in competition. They generally frown on the available stages.

Let me start with everything I think is great about this stage. All of the easter eggs are fun, though I guess I'll never see Balloon Fighter with the clone engine . The non-intrusive transition from sky to water is great. Keeping the fish was the best idea because this stage just wouldn't be the same without it. I also love how it's the right height to hit people on the ledge and a good speed to really pressure you away from the water.
The breakable Smashville-esque platform is perfect. The clouds coming high and low is great for mixups on an already crazy stage. I especially like how the low cloud is usable for the brief second it passes through the center pit. I also think the design of the pit is great. You can wall jump on one side, and the other can get you trapped. And if anyone says they don't like wavedashing on ice, they don't really know what a wavedash is.

Now let me move on to some negatives. Though the textures are fine and by no means bad, they do lack a certain detail that Summit had. Would it be possible to somehow mix in the old textures without completely replacing it? I also feel like I see less special food than I used to, but I could be imagining that since I was actually looking for them.

And now some personal preferences. Think you could find a place to stick a Topi or Nitpicker? Is there any room to take a few things from Melee's Icicle Mountain for decoration?

 

[Cubelarooso]

I love this stage, and have basically been waiting for it since PM began.
It makes fantastic use of the varied elements offered by Summit. The Randalls, the destructible ice platform, the trap door all introduce opportunities for creativity without forcing them. The water and fish aren't too absurd, since they're not always there and they're in the place where other stages will also kill you (it maybe could be a bit farther below stage, though, or ebb and flow some while it's present), and they add some variety to the standard recovery fare. And of course there's the ice physics, which are one of the most fun things in the game.

The stage has great design, with everything I think a competitive stage needs. Just a bit too much, in fact. It's almost perfect, but I don't think it's quite legal-material yet (definitely not with the current CP procedure). It wouldn't take much for that to change, would take nothing away from the stage, and I think it would add to the game.
Infinite Glacier is HUEG LIKE XBOX, but that might not be a issue with the ice giving everyone go fast.
Actually, the ice is the issue. It's super fun and cool (), which is why I really want the stage to see tournament use, but it's currently way too dominating a factor. It overshadows everything else cool about the stage, and there's no way for someone to escape it. As is, the main concern for anyone considering Infinite Glacier would be whether the ice gives them/their opponent some degenerative way for a dumb win.
Even those less interested in the stage's high-level applications should agree that it's incredibly jarring to go from IG to anywhere else. Players are given complete freedom to go real fast to anywhere, with nothing to keep them grounded in the actual match; I find that I quickly forget how to move normal. It just sort of interrupts the game when one has to reacclimate so suddenly and drastically.
I think this would be solved if there were a part of the stage that was free of it (besides the passing weather that will haul one off to oblivion). Either spatial, so that half of the stage is covered with snow that has normal traction, or temporal, so that the ice is uncovered when the stage sinks/rises then snow builds back up while it's stationary.
I especially think the trap door shouldn't be slippery. It would make intuitive sense, interrupt cross-stage ice cars, and force people to slow down on the thing-you-have-to-slow-down-on-in-order-for-it-to-work.
A change like one of those wouldn't detract from what makes the stage awesome, but instead would allow it to awe in even more settings.

The tide's highness and stage's sizeness would be balance issues that require playtesting a snowy version in order to properly assess, although I can theorysmash some arguments.
I also think the vegebles should be more integrated, if possible. Like, make them spawn with items off, heal a large small amount (like 10-20%), and spawn in the crevasse (say, on a trap door that collapses alongside the other one, or on a support too narrow for characters) to tempt players down there.
Don't really have any problem with it visually. Would be cool if there were more cameos, like Bubbles swimming about or Mike Jones's sub, or stuff less retro but still appropriate.

Also, the fact that Project M is a video game with a good ice level is finally definitive evidence that it's the result of an eldritch contract between the Melluminati and dark worm-gods from beyond space.

 

[himemiya]

I feel like there could be more done to it, like lowering the bottom blastzone and not have the water in the way and the trap door in the middle not being a trap door. Besides the water getting in the way its a fun stage but I do wish the bottom blastzone was lowered so the water and the fish wouldn't be as much as a big deal.

 

[arcticfox8]

It's pretty great imo

 

[Rᴏb]

It's probably the best stage you guys have made so far.

 

[Nefnoj]

This stage is great for practicing wave-dashes! I'm a casual player myself, so "wavedashing" is weird to me. This stage helps to learn how to do things like that!

Is it possible to wall-jump out of the trap-door hole? If not, it might be a neat thing to implement.
I also wouldn't mind more platforms.

Completely unrelated to the current stage discussion, yet something I was wondering about: Custom stage slots, turning bugs into advantages...

Spoiler

A while I asked about custom stage slots. I have several more in my build, but they're not part of the random select, and having too many large Stage Selection images to correspond tends to make it crash, likely due memory issues. It might be cool to have a third omega stage option that utilizes custom stage slots, given that
1. Striking will still work, as it works on my build,
2. It won't be part of the random stage select, which is good, because nobody wants to only do Final Destination over and over.
3. There will be Omega forms from fans anyway,
4. It might be cool for Tournaments.
It would be neat if you could do Battlefield forms of stages. Of course, I know you coding wizards are working on the Alternate Stage loader, so if you get it to work, it'll be unnecessary.
Since having large Stage Selection Images causes it to crash, I was thinking of a UI like this:

Though I'm no wizard and have no clue what's possible.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Infinite Glacier doesn't even feel like a plain "tourney-legal Summit" like I originally thought it was going to be. It feels like a stage that could have in an official game.

A while I asked about custom stage slots. I have several more in my build, but they're not part of the random select, and having too many large Stage Selection images to correspond tends to make it crash, likely due memory issues. It might be cool to have a third omega stage option that utilizes custom stage slots, given that
1. Striking will still work, as it works on my build,
2. It won't be part of the random stage select, which is good, because nobody wants to only do Final Destination over and over.
3. There will be Omega forms from fans anyway,
4. It might be cool for Tournaments.
It would be neat if you could do Battlefield forms of stages. Of course, I know you coding wizards are working on the Alternate Stage loader, so if you get it to work, it'll be unnecessary.
Since having large Stage Selection Images causes it to crash, I was thinking of a UI like this:

Though I'm no wizard and have no clue what's possible.

I can't say I like that idea, mainly because I like the custom stage slots. I use my build in public, so I can't in good conscience remove anything included with the vanilla mod. And I don't want to get rid of Melee: Icicle Mountain, Smash U: Big Battlefield, SSF2: Sky Sanctuary Zone, and Dragon Ball Z: World Martial Arts Tournament in order to preserve some duplicates that people may or may not be wondering where they've gone.

 

[GFooChombey]

It might be cool to have a third omega stage option

I strongly disagree. Half the viable stages already aren't used, so why introduce more? Not to mention I'd rather see the alternate stage loader be used to load aesthetic differences such as HD remakes or N64 originals, a melee-esque skin or vBrawl Battlefield, or even something like certain stages with different weather/time of day.


Back to Infinite Glacier though, I forgot to say thank you @ Sandfall . I really like your work on this stage and can't wait to see what else you have worked on.

 

[PlateProp]

Thanks for the feedback!

We'll now be discussing a new casual stage that was added to 3.5: Infinite Glacier!

This stage is based on Summit, but the gameplay is so heavily altered that it didn't resemble Summit anymore, so we gave it a new name. I designed the gameplay for this stage, so I'm personally really interested (and slightly scared) to hear what you all have to say about this one!

I hate you because Squirtle literally cannot turnaround on IG without getting stuck :C

 

[Cubelarooso]

That reminds me of something particularly awesome on the stage: you can B-reverse on the ground (and it be effective)!