Q&A Official FAQ and QnA Thread - Ask Your Questions Here!

[-ACE-]

Holy cow, they won't let you use a crt??? get one for 10-15 bucks at a pawn shop, it's necessary.

 

[Lucky13the2nd]

we have one in our garage. Any way you can put into words just how important it is?
Added:
I explained to them how important it is to use one when I first started and they looked at me like I was crazy (which may certainly be the case) and went Nah you don't need one

 

[-ACE-]

we have one in our garage. Any way you can put into words just how important it is?
Added:
I explained to them how important it is to use one when I first started and they looked at me like I was crazy (which may certainly be the case) and went Nah you don't need one

You can't chaingrab or do anything reaction based on a laggy LCD or plasma TV. CRT's have hardly any lag. You press a button, and your character responds instantly. Transitioning between CRT's and laggy TV's is tough, and all tournaments use CRT's. Since you don't go to tournaments often, you wouldn't want to have to go through that adjustment unnecessarily.

Do they use a big flat screen instead of a CRT to watch TV? Ask them why. When they start to explain that the two are quite different, simply reply "that's what I'm saying". The gamecube is from 1999-2000. It's made for CRT's.

 

[Lucky13the2nd]

Alright, thanks. How strongly is it recommended to get a GameCube (on that note)? I have a Wii right now.

 

[-ACE-]

Alright, thanks. How strongly is it recommended to get a GameCube (on that note)? I have a Wii right now.

A Wii is fine.

 

[TeSik]

hey guys, is there something like a "tutorial" for stages like rainbow cruise or poke floats? i wanna extend my knowledge on those both stages. sometimes we do side events at my locals and i thought it'd be neat to know the "hidden" places and unusual paths to go to.

i know, nothing is really hidden, but stuff like hiding on psyduck on the top left corner where you are off screen, but instead dropping down on the right, you go left and land on slowpoke who's just arriving at the time you are down. stuff like that. help would be really appreciated.

 

[MachuAchoo]

Hey do the Official Nintendo GameCube Super Smash Bros. Edition Controller compatible with the Wii? If so, are there any known lag problems? Thanks!

 

[Dolla Pills]

Hey do the Official Nintendo GameCube Super Smash Bros. Edition Controller compatible with the Wii? If so, are there any known lag problems? Thanks!

They work fine!

 

[MachuAchoo]

They work fine!

srry for the late reply but thx! I was wondering because I have never seen people use it. Ig i'll use it to play melee on my wii

 

[Ahny.]

Looking for someone around my area of any skill level to contact me on skype (ahny.mk) and meet up and practice and maybe set up a plan for weekly practice sessions or something but that's just an idea it be better thought out if I was contacted or I contacted, I live around (Long island/Baldwin) if anyone around that area would be willing to meet up practice contact me on skype thanks!

O and I kinda didn't know where else I should've post this so sorry if it's so awkward > . >

 

[Bones0]

Looking for someone around my area of any skill level to contact me on skype (ahny.mk) and meet up and practice and maybe set up a plan for weekly practice sessions or something but that's just an idea it be better thought out if I was contacted or I contacted, I live around (Long island/Baldwin) if anyone around that area would be willing to meet up practice contact me on skype thanks!

O and I kinda didn't know where else I should've post this so sorry if it's so awkward > . >

You should join a local group on Facebook. That's where everyone posts about practice sessions and tournaments.

 

[SCOAKS5]

Q: Does anyone happen to know what Smash tournament has had the highest peak viewer count while live streaming?

I'm pretty sure Evo 2016 had around 200,000+ viewers at its peak during grand finals (source) so I'd have to imaging that that'd be it, but I'm pretty curious to see if any other tounaments have surpassed that. I don't know how to check twitch viewers stats or anything so I'm kinda relying on you guys and your personal knowledge.

 

[Ahny.]

You should join a local group on Facebook. That's where everyone posts about practice sessions and tournaments.

Thank you I'll look into it !

 

[Big Gay Thunder]

Is there any way to put on a tag in Develop mode? I usually just use Dev mode on endless to practice tech skill since the camera always follows you and there's no P2 and I have access to Sub colors (the lighter or darker you'd get in teams). But I'm making a few tech skill videos and I want to put on a tag. Alternatively what's the best way to set up single player to function in the same way? As in camera follows me, no second player, and ideally sub color access but that's not a big deal.

 

[Dolla Pills]

Is there any way to put on a tag in Develop mode? I usually just use Dev mode on endless to practice tech skill since the camera always follows you and there's no P2 and I have access to Sub colors (the lighter or darker you'd get in teams). But I'm making a few tech skill videos and I want to put on a tag. Alternatively what's the best way to set up single player to function in the same way? As in camera follows me, no second player, and ideally sub color access but that's not a big deal.

There were some older versions of the 20xx hack pack that let you start a game by yourself (v 3.?), and I'm pretty sure you could access sub colors through the debug menu it provides.

 

[Bones0]

Is there any way to put on a tag in Develop mode? I usually just use Dev mode on endless to practice tech skill since the camera always follows you and there's no P2 and I have access to Sub colors (the lighter or darker you'd get in teams). But I'm making a few tech skill videos and I want to put on a tag. Alternatively what's the best way to set up single player to function in the same way? As in camera follows me, no second player, and ideally sub color access but that's not a big deal.

Try using 20xx's Training Mode and using X + D-pad Down to clear the menu off the screen. You can set up the camera type you want before clearing the menu, but you won't be able to use the light/dark teams colors.

 

[El_Komosutro]

Can someone tell me if when you powershield an attack (not a projectile), can you use the c-stick to cancel the push-back or lag in general with an attack or is it just the A and B buttons?

Also curious to find out does shield and up on the c-stick buffer jump just like roll and spot dodge as soon as possible?

 

[Bones0]

Can someone tell me if when you powershield an attack (not a projectile), can you use the c-stick to cancel the push-back or lag in general with an attack or is it just the A and B buttons?

Also curious to find out does shield and up on the c-stick buffer jump just like roll and spot dodge as soon as possible?

I'm not quite sure what your first question is asking. You cannot interrupt shield stun after powershielding a physical attack, but once shield stun is over and you've started the shield release animation, you can interrupt it with the C-stick the same as A or B moves. You can even fsmash in the direction opposite of where you are facing. I don't think shield pushback is inherently linked to shield stun so it seems likely that there are scenarios where shield stun ends before pushback does, especially for low traction characters like Luigi and ICs. I'd have to check to be sure on that though.

Shield + C-stick up buffers a jump the same as roll and spotdodge, though it's important to keep in mind that roll is the only option that requires you to shield first, and therefore, it's possible to jump or spotdodge a frame earlier without buffering unless you're already in shield.

 

[Big Gay Thunder]

I've got a question about the Dorakii ledges on the rock in KJ64. The right side you just need to push away and you'll instantly walljump (example. https://giphy.com/gifs/ssbm-right-ledge-l1BgT0xM4ygrD4zPG). You can also ride the wall to store the walljump like you normally would (https://giphy.com/gifs/ssbm-yink-doraki-6xZxE5qY0jLdS). The left side is more complicated. You can always ride the wall and push away like you do for a regular Dorakii wj (see above gif). But sometimes you can also drop and instant walljump from the ledge ( examples https://giphy.com/gifs/ssbm-left-ledge-l1BgRkwOxaLbIhViE and https://giphy.com/gifs/ssbm-left-ledge-xUA7aPVFJzvvwig8Fi). Three additional points. First, on the left side ones I'm not dropping with Cstick and trying to drift in like I would for a scar jump. Second, the low quality gifs might not show this as well but I've checked the mp4's for a ring and I'm not doublejumping into them. Finally, it's not a wj storing thing because I can do in on the left side without doing it off the right side first. I only show right side first in the videos because that was what I clipped.

I imagine this is a function of the environment being curved in a certain way? If so, why can I always Dorakii wallride wj but only sometimes instant wj? Are there ledges where only one would work but not the other? why is that the case? Hope I've articulated this question well

 

[Dedgehog]

I have a couple questions. I'm fairly new to the game and I play Falcon. Sometimes when I'm playing I try to dash dance but it doesn't come out. I end up doing this stupid looking thing where my character keeps turning around in place and I don't know how to fix it. Also I have another question on how to tech chase with Falcon. It seems like half of the time I'm trying to tech chase, the opponent just spot dodges or rolls out after the tech. Even if I know where they tech and am standing right next to them, I can't seem to punish it. Any help would be great, thanks.

 

[Bones0]

I've got a question about the Dorakii ledges on the rock in KJ64. The right side you just need to push away and you'll instantly walljump (example. https://giphy.com/gifs/ssbm-right-ledge-l1BgT0xM4ygrD4zPG). You can also ride the wall to store the walljump like you normally would (https://giphy.com/gifs/ssbm-yink-doraki-6xZxE5qY0jLdS). The left side is more complicated. You can always ride the wall and push away like you do for a regular Dorakii wj (see above gif). But sometimes you can also drop and instant walljump from the ledge ( examples https://giphy.com/gifs/ssbm-left-ledge-l1BgRkwOxaLbIhViE and https://giphy.com/gifs/ssbm-left-ledge-xUA7aPVFJzvvwig8Fi). Three additional points. First, on the left side ones I'm not dropping with Cstick and trying to drift in like I would for a scar jump. Second, the low quality gifs might not show this as well but I've checked the mp4's for a ring and I'm not doublejumping into them. Finally, it's not a wj storing thing because I can do in on the left side without doing it off the right side first. I only show right side first in the videos because that was what I clipped.

I imagine this is a function of the environment being curved in a certain way? If so, why can I always Dorakii wallride wj but only sometimes instant wj? Are there ledges where only one would work but not the other? why is that the case? Hope I've articulated this question well

You might be relying on ECB manipulation to get the instant wall jump because the last LH in the last gif where you didn't get the wall jump, you seemed to hesitate longer than normal. That small delay might be allowing your ECB to change and preventing you from reaching the wall to initiate a wall jump when you drop. It should be pretty easy to test with frame advance if you want to confirm or rule out this possibility.

I have a couple questions. I'm fairly new to the game and I play Falcon. Sometimes when I'm playing I try to dash dance but it doesn't come out. I end up doing this stupid looking thing where my character keeps turning around in place and I don't know how to fix it. Also I have another question on how to tech chase with Falcon. It seems like half of the time I'm trying to tech chase, the opponent just spot dodges or rolls out after the tech. Even if I know where they tech and am standing right next to them, I can't seem to punish it. Any help would be great, thanks.

If your character is doing a slow turnaround animation, it means you held the stick too long when you inputted the dash. If you hold a dash for a certain length of time, it turns into a running animation which has different properties. Most notably, you cannot dash in the opposite direction like you can during the dash animation. The two main ways to fix this (both are necessary depending on how you want to dash dance) are:

1. Release the stick and let it reset to neutral after the first dash input. The longer you hold the stick to dash, the further your dash will go, but hold it too long and you'll end up transitioning into the run animation.
2. Input the second dash quicker. If you press left and right you will notice the slow turnaround animation does not occur. Of course, if you are trying to avoid an opponent's attacks, sometimes doing the second dash quickly is not a good idea, in which case you'll want to use the first option.

To get a good sense of this timing, I recommend practicing "fox trot" dashes. On FD, dash to the right. Release the stick, let it reset to neutral, then dash to the right again. Once you get to the other side of the stage, do the same thing but dash to the left a few times in a row. This will help you get used to when you're able to dash and when you're holding the stick too long.


Tech chasing's really hard! There's a lot of tiny things you have to practice. I would actually recommend just hard reading if you are still new to the game because tech chasing on reaction requires a lot of coordination and ability to recognize subtle animation differences. Just work on getting hitboxes out in the right place at the right time. Pay close attention to how long the different tech animations take. The timing and distance vary for each character, so it will take some getting used to. If you have 20xx or a friend who can tech for you, practice down/up throwing a character and covering one of their options. So for instance, visualize how far a Fox's tech roll away will go if you down throw him, then practice kneeing that spot with the right timing. It will take a long time, but when you finally get it down, it's extremely satisfying. Once you feel comfortable hitting the tech options with reads, then you can move on to doing it reactively (something most veterans still don't do consistently).

 

[Dedgehog]

You might be relying on ECB manipulation to get the instant wall jump because the last LH in the last gif where you didn't get the wall jump, you seemed to hesitate longer than normal. That small delay might be allowing your ECB to change and preventing you from reaching the wall to initiate a wall jump when you drop. It should be pretty easy to test with frame advance if you want to confirm or rule out this possibility.



If your character is doing a slow turnaround animation, it means you held the stick too long when you inputted the dash. If you hold a dash for a certain length of time, it turns into a running animation which has different properties. Most notably, you cannot dash in the opposite direction like you can during the dash animation. The two main ways to fix this (both are necessary depending on how you want to dash dance) are:

1. Release the stick and let it reset to neutral after the first dash input. The longer you hold the stick to dash, the further your dash will go, but hold it too long and you'll end up transitioning into the run animation.
2. Input the second dash quicker. If you press left and right you will notice the slow turnaround animation does not occur. Of course, if you are trying to avoid an opponent's attacks, sometimes doing the second dash quickly is not a good idea, in which case you'll want to use the first option.

To get a good sense of this timing, I recommend practicing "fox trot" dashes. On FD, dash to the right. Release the stick, let it reset to neutral, then dash to the right again. Once you get to the other side of the stage, do the same thing but dash to the left a few times in a row. This will help you get used to when you're able to dash and when you're holding the stick too long.


Tech chasing's really hard! There's a lot of tiny things you have to practice. I would actually recommend just hard reading if you are still new to the game because tech chasing on reaction requires a lot of coordination and ability to recognize subtle animation differences. Just work on getting hitboxes out in the right place at the right time. Pay close attention to how long the different tech animations take. The timing and distance vary for each character, so it will take some getting used to. If you have 20xx or a friend who can tech for you, practice down/up throwing a character and covering one of their options. So for instance, visualize how far a Fox's tech roll away will go if you down throw him, then practice kneeing that spot with the right timing. It will take a long time, but when you finally get it down, it's extremely satisfying. Once you feel comfortable hitting the tech options with reads, then you can move on to doing it reactively (something most veterans still don't do consistently).

Thanks for the help, probably should of made my problem with the dash dancing clearer. I understand if you wait to long you will go into a turn around animation. But I'm not even getting the first dash. I will be in the standing animation and my character will turn around into the standing animation facing the other way. Then I just keep turning around again and again. It seems to have the most after I get up after a roll or tech as well as after landing after an aerial attack.

 

[Ten of Nine]

On that topic can someone help me out with some in depth info on turn around animation length and does the entire cast experiences the 1 frame back dash problem in the same way.

I know that turn animation can vary from 5-9 frames but there is no actual list of who takes how long that I could find. I could figure this out by recording and analyzing footage so that it not a big question I'm concerned with I guess. What really confuses me is that it seems that some characters have a much easier time back dashing than others. For instance with Ness it seems like Back dashing is like a 90% success for me, but with Marth it's like 50% even though their turn animations take the same amount I thought (I notice that even top players get stuck in turn-turns with Marth as well).

Also a 2nd question if possible - does everyone have the same air dodge distance but it's just their ECB that makes them seem wildly different or are they all just different speeds, accelerations, and legnths? (I already know about Peach/Zelda early FF and Mewtwo's unique AD SAF)

 

[Dolla Pills]

Does anyone know of a reference where I can find info on the GC controller motherboard? I'm looking for solder points that carry the data from the buttons/sticks to do some stuff with LEDs

 

[Bones0]

Thanks for the help, probably should of made my problem with the dash dancing clearer. I understand if you wait to long you will go into a turn around animation. But I'm not even getting the first dash. I will be in the standing animation and my character will turn around into the standing animation facing the other way. Then I just keep turning around again and again. It seems to have the most after I get up after a roll or tech as well as after landing after an aerial attack.

If you're walking instead of dashing after some other action with lag, you're simply inputting it too early. Also be sure that your dash inputs are going straight into the horizontal notches. If you're angling the stick upwards or downwards it won't come out as a dash. If you feel like it's still not working despite you moving the stick properly and you know it's not a timing error because it happens when you're standing still, then the only other thing I could think of is you're using a controller that is 3rd party or extremely worn down with a loose stick. If you go to a tournament and ask someone there to test your controller, you can get a definitive answer on that.

On that topic can someone help me out with some in depth info on turn around animation length and does the entire cast experiences the 1 frame back dash problem in the same way.

I know that turn animation can vary from 5-9 frames but there is no actual list of who takes how long that I could find. I could figure this out by recording and analyzing footage so that it not a big question I'm concerned with I guess. What really confuses me is that it seems that some characters have a much easier time back dashing than others. For instance with Ness it seems like Back dashing is like a 90% success for me, but with Marth it's like 50% even though their turn animations take the same amount I thought (I notice that even top players get stuck in turn-turns with Marth as well).

Also a 2nd question if possible - does everyone have the same air dodge distance but it's just their ECB that makes them seem wildly different or are they all just different speeds, accelerations, and legnths? (I already know about Peach/Zelda early FF and Mewtwo's unique AD SAF)

The entire cast has to dash back frame perfect to avoid a slow turnaround, but it's only out of wait. If you are dashing out of the full crouch animation or some sort of lag, it's a 2-frame window. If you are just testing this by yourself, there's no reason for dashing back to be easier for one character than another. What you might be getting tricked by is how easy it is to tell when a character misses their dash back. Marth's tilt turn is 7 frames compared to Ness's 5, so it's simply a longer amount of time you're affected. It's very clear when you miss a smash turn because Marth stands up straight compared to his smash turn where he gets low to the ground, but some of Ness's tilt turn frames kinda resemble his dash frames. If you test with dash back JC grab or dash back shield stop, it should make it more obvious when you miss a smash turn.

What makes you say airdodge distances are wildly different? Just with a bit of testing, everyone seems to go about the same distance. I'm using the length of Poke Stadium's platforms for measuring, and everyone goes right up to the edge without falling off. Just based on this and the fact that almost everyone's airdodges are either 48 or 49 frames long, I'm inclined to believe the acceleration and velocity is the same for everyone. The only "weird" airdodges are Peach, Zelda, Mewtwo, and Bowser, which you can see in this chart.

 

[Ten of Nine]

If you're walking instead of dashing after some other action with lag, you're simply inputting it too early. Also be sure that your dash inputs are going straight into the horizontal notches. If you're angling the stick upwards or downwards it won't come out as a dash. If you feel like it's still not working despite you moving the stick properly and you know it's not a timing error because it happens when you're standing still, then the only other thing I could think of is you're using a controller that is 3rd party or extremely worn down with a loose stick. If you go to a tournament and ask someone there to test your controller, you can get a definitive answer on that.


The entire cast has to dash back frame perfect to avoid a slow turnaround, but it's only out of wait. If you are dashing out of the full crouch animation or some sort of lag, it's a 2-frame window. If you are just testing this by yourself, there's no reason for dashing back to be easier for one character than another. What you might be getting tricked by is how easy it is to tell when a character misses their dash back. Marth's tilt turn is 7 frames compared to Ness's 5, so it's simply a longer amount of time you're affected. It's very clear when you miss a smash turn because Marth stands up straight compared to his smash turn where he gets low to the ground, but some of Ness's tilt turn frames kinda resemble his dash frames. If you test with dash back JC grab or dash back shield stop, it should make it more obvious when you miss a smash turn.

What makes you say airdodge distances are wildly different? Just with a bit of testing, everyone seems to go about the same distance. I'm using the length of Poke Stadium's platforms for measuring, and everyone goes right up to the edge without falling off. Just based on this and the fact that almost everyone's airdodges are either 48 or 49 frames long, I'm inclined to believe the acceleration and velocity is the same for everyone. The only "weird" airdodges are Peach, Zelda, Mewtwo, and Bowser, which you can see in this chart.

Thank you so much I figured I was just missing the dash back, but I did not know Marth's tilt anim was so much longer or different at all.

About air dodges, I suspect it's just has to do with body size and ECB. If you air dodge back to stage with Ness it seems significantly longer than Falco, Fox, Falcon, DK, Bowser, and Kirby for instance. Just from playing for years with many characters they all felt very different, but again that's probably just the ECB letting smaller framed characters make it onto stage where those with bad low ECBs or big frames can't. Ness seems to be able to sneak back into stage from insane distances, same with Pichu. I have heard that both Ness and DK have fixed ECBs, if that's the case then Ness must have a very small or a very high ECB.

 

[w4t3r]

When do I use crouch cancel? Couldn't I just shield the attack instead of crouch cancel? I realize that maybe you want to use a tilt after a certain crouch cancel, but at what general % is this the optimal choice?

 

[Ten of Nine]

CC Varies wildly based on character weight and power of the incoming attack. Heavier you are the higher you can CC until and the more powerful an incoming attack the faster it breaks the CC threshold.

CC is far more broken than just shielding, you suffer significantly reduced hitstun (1/3 I believe) AND it feels like you can retaliate almost instantly. Even fast OoS options are usually slower, have less range, and less power than most CC options (plus you have ground moves available). Also just dropping or WDing adds another 15 or so frames onto retaliating from shield..

Optimal CC characters are those that are heavy and have fast attacks with decent range out of crouch. Like the Mario bros have very fast strong D-smashes (as does Peach, Samus, Zelda & Yoshi), both spacies can CC d-tilt, Up-smash, or shine (Pikachu's Up-smash too), Marth can grab really far out of CC, Ganon's Jab or his and DK's grab out of CC into high percents since they are super heavy.

 

[Shinigami Steve]

Just wondering. My friend just started playing melee against me as falco, and I'm a fox main. He just learned how to F-smash and now he spams it like there is no tomorrow, and if he isn't doing that, he is camping and spamming down air. Can someone give me tips on what to do in order to punish this kind of gameplay? I want to have someone to play against in order to make me a better player.

P.S. I have no trouble beating him, I just want to punish his F-smash and down air

 

[Bones0]

Just wondering. My friend just started playing melee against me as falco, and I'm a fox main. He just learned how to F-smash and now he spams it like there is no tomorrow, and if he isn't doing that, he is camping and spamming down air. Can someone give me tips on what to do in order to punish this kind of gameplay? I want to have someone to play against in order to make me a better player.

P.S. I have no trouble beating him, I just want to punish his F-smash and down air

Believe it or not, someone spamming something like this WILL make you a better player. Try not to believe you are above having to deal with any particular strategy. Until someone gets punished for something, you can't blame them for abusing it.

Fsmash is pretty laggy, so if you shield it, you will have at least a 16 frame advantage. That means any actions that can be done out of shield (OoS) within 16 frames will hit, depending on how quick you are and how he spaced the fsmash. If he fsmashes close to your shield, you can shield grab, usmash OoS, aerial OoS. If he hits with the edge of the fsmash so that he's out of range, you can wavedash OoS towards him to close the space, but that takes 13 frames if done perfectly so you will only have 3 frames left to attack (shine or jab). Similarly, most of the time Falco dairs, it is not safe. The lowest possible SHFFL dair is -2, which means you can act 2 frames OoS before Falco can shine. Fox's shine OoS hits and is invincible frame 4, so if they are at least 1 frame slower than you with their shine, you will clank with their shine or beat them outright.

Those are the basics on punishing OoS, but the most reliable way to deal with attacks is to space around them. Fox has amazingly quick movement, so that is what you normally will want to rely on to dodge attacks and punish the lag on their whiffs. The simplest tool for this is dash dancing. The video below gives a good explanation of the basics of dash dancing, and I recommend watching some of their other videos if you have questions about any other Melee tech.

 

[Shinigami Steve]

Believe it or not, someone spamming something like this WILL make you a better player. Try not to believe you are above having to deal with any particular strategy. Until someone gets punished for something, you can't blame them for abusing it.

Fsmash is pretty laggy, so if you shield it, you will have at least a 16 frame advantage. That means any actions that can be done out of shield (OoS) within 16 frames will hit, depending on how quick you are and how he spaced the fsmash. If he fsmashes close to your shield, you can shield grab, usmash OoS, aerial OoS. If he hits with the edge of the fsmash so that he's out of range, you can wavedash OoS towards him to close the space, but that takes 13 frames if done perfectly so you will only have 3 frames left to attack (shine or jab). Similarly, most of the time Falco dairs, it is not safe. The lowest possible SHFFL dair is -2, which means you can act 2 frames OoS before Falco can shine. Fox's shine OoS hits and is invincible frame 4, so if they are at least 1 frame slower than you with their shine, you will clank with their shine or beat them outright.

Those are the basics on punishing OoS, but the most reliable way to deal with attacks is to space around them. Fox has amazingly quick movement, so that is what you normally will want to rely on to dodge attacks and punish the lag on their whiffs. The simplest tool for this is dash dancing. The video below gives a good explanation of the basics of dash dancing, and I recommend watching some of their other videos if you have questions about any other Melee tech.

Thanks for the help

 

[Ralugi]

So, I'm new to Melee, coming from Brawl and Sm4sh. I'm currently searching for a fast character who can really force options on others, but still have a reliable defense. Any suggestions?

Also, a link to the vital tech would be helpful.

 

[Bones0]

So, I'm new to Melee, coming from Brawl and Sm4sh. I'm currently searching for a fast character who can really force options on others, but still have a reliable defense. Any suggestions?

Also, a link to the vital tech would be helpful.

The chars with the fastest movement are Fox, Sheik, Marth, Falcon, and possibly Yoshi (who is particularly fast on platforms). Defense sort of depends on what you mean. Fox has good OoS options, but gets destroyed when he gets touched. Sheik has good OoS options and can wall defensively, but her recovery is somewhat limited. Sheik might be the best fit based on your description, but I'd recommend watching a good amount of high level play and picking a character that speaks to you the most. If you have any aspects of Smash that bother you a lot or know of any disadvantages you wouldn't mind dealing with, those might actually be more indicative of what characters to avoid/try out. For example, if you get frustrated by dying early, you won't want to pick Falco. If you think you'd deal well with struggling to KO and would kind of enjoy that type of challenge, Marth might be a good fit. No matter who you pick, the Melee subreddit is a good place to get important info on your character and the basics needed to play them.

 

[Lucky13the2nd]

I am invested in getting better at this game, but my surroundings are making it quite difficult. I am unable to go to tourneys, only have two people who I know that play PM (not even melee) pseudo-competitively, consequently my highest level opponents are the 20XX AI, can only play on weekends, share a TV with siblings, and main Fox. How can I best improve in these circumstances? Thanks in advance. Probably not an easy question.

 

[Bones0]

I am invested in getting better at this game, but my surroundings are making it quite difficult. I am unable to go to tourneys, only have two people who I know that play PM (not even melee) pseudo-competitively, consequently my highest level opponents are the 20XX AI, can only play on weekends, share a TV with siblings, and main Fox. How can I best improve in these circumstances? Thanks in advance. Probably not an easy question.

By far your best opportunity to improve is netplay. Unfortunately, you will need a decent computer, monitor, and internet connection. Without those, the only way to really get better is to play other people in person. Either figure out an arrangement where someone nearby can come to your place, or vice versa. I found out about competitive Melee in '05, and practiced a lot while watching tons of videos despite not getting a chance to play other people until '09. While my tech skill was well above average for a newcomer, I actually developed a lot of bad habits that still show up in my gameplay today.

I only say this to discourage you from "wasting" your time practicing against CPUs for extended periods of time. If you enjoy practicing tech skill, especially if you want to play Fox, then feel free to enjoy. Maybe in a year your circumstances will have changed, and you'll be able to jump into learning the actual game right away. Just don't confuse practicing tech skill with actually learning to play the game because I know from firsthand experience it can be frustrating. If you really want to compete, there's no way around finding people to play against, whether that's online or in person. A couple of friends who dabble in P:M can get you started, but you'll quickly advance past them and in most cases, find out they actually have pretty scrubby mentalities towards improvement/competition.

 

[Lucky13the2nd]

A follow-up: since the 20XX CPUs can respond to your position and will attempt to punish mistakes, would it still be a bad idea to use them every now and then or would this make them "safe"?

 

[Bones0]

A follow-up: since the 20XX CPUs can respond to your position and will attempt to punish mistakes, would it still be a bad idea to use them every now and then or would this make them "safe"?

The 20xx CPUs don't attempt to punish mistakes afaik. They just spam tech skill in your general area and play nothing like actual humans. Personally, I occasionally use them to practice zoning and general spacing of attacks or trying to react with OoS options to get more comfortable with shield pressure, but other than that, a "stupid" CPU is actually way better. The CPUs in the 3rd version of 20xx are actually way better for 20xx because they randomly DI and do immediate options after teching (like tech in place shine) without attacking you all the time. You can legitimately practice punish game vs. the version 3 20xx CPUs, but not so much the newest version. The old version also lets you set specific tasks like perfect nair OoS/shield grabs. This allows you to practice your shield pressure and make sure you're tightening up your timings. This isn't possible in the newest version.

 

[Lucky13the2nd]

The 20xx CPUs don't attempt to punish mistakes afaik. They just spam tech skill in your general area and play nothing like actual humans. Personally, I occasionally use them to practice zoning and general spacing of attacks or trying to react with OoS options to get more comfortable with shield pressure, but other than that, a "stupid" CPU is actually way better. The CPUs in the 3rd version of 20xx are actually way better for 20xx because they randomly DI and do immediate options after teching (like tech in place shine) without attacking you all the time. You can legitimately practice punish game vs. the version 3 20xx CPUs, but not so much the newest version. The old version also lets you set specific tasks like perfect nair OoS/shield grabs. This allows you to practice your shield pressure and make sure you're tightening up your timings. This isn't possible in the newest version.

We are both talking 4.05, right? Because I am confident that they do indeed react to your position. I completely agree that they are very different from human opponents, though.

 

[Bones0]

We are both talking 4.05, right? Because I am confident that they do indeed react to your position. I completely agree that they are very different from human opponents, though.

Yeah, that's what I mean. They react to your position, but not what action state you're in. Maybe they react to whether you're shielding or not, but they can't understand who is at frame advantage or how large your range is and behave accordingly.

 

[Trinsic]

Can anyone give me advice on wavesmashing? I can wavedash fine but I can barely ever seem to attack while wavedashing.

Is there a trick to the timing I'm not getting? Do I need to wait until after the character is done crouching from landing/wavedashing into the ground before the game will register an input? Do I have to be a certain distance into the wavedash to wavesmash? What's the deal?

And are there only certain attacks you can use while wavedashing, or is anything fair game? Can I use more than just smash attacks?

I'm mostly playing as Yoshi if that makes any difference.

I'm on a CRT so it's not lag or anything. Maybe my timing is just bad but I can't really tell. Is there any frame data available for this that I can look at?