Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List Followup

​

Earlier this month, the 4BR released the first official tier list for Smash Bros. for Wii U:

This time, we want to address some frequently asked questions and dive a little deeper into the results.

Frequently Asked Questions

Why did the 4BR release a tier list only a few days before a new patch?

A tier list isn’t created overnight and there is never a perfect time. We started creation of this first tier list back in December, on a build that left the majority of the cast relatively untouched and introduced only one new character. We ended up extending the process to include Genesis 3 as a case study and were already close to the final release when the announcement of the 1.1.4 patch happened.

We always knew that there were two more characters on the way, which we didn’t consider too major a problem in the sense that a tier list is a part of history that gets updated over time. Ideally, this would not have been the first list, but patches and major tournaments kept happening too quickly on short notice to find a period of relative stability.

Does the 1.1.4 patch invalidate the tier list?

For the most part, no. Most characters did not change significantly, as can be seen in the patch notes for 1.1.4. The biggest buffs befell Toon Link, Falco, Marth/Lucina, Roy, Ike and Little Mac, while Bowser lost his kill confirm from upthrow at higher percentages as the most significant nerf.

It is too early to judge the impact Bayonetta and Corrin have on the metagame, and we won’t have a major tournament to look at until Pound 2016 in April. The alternative to handling the tier list the way we did would have been postponing the project for multiple months, at which point we would have to consider postponing it further to include the onslaught of summer events.

Why is my favourite character considered low tier?

Besides the fact that very few individuals will 100% agree with any given tier list, it seems like many people are hung up on what it meant to be a low tier in other Smash games, with Brawl being the most direct comparison. Smash 4 is a relatively balanced game for various reasons, and we have a tournament example of a top player beating another top player in a matchup of the worst character in the game against the best character in the game. By definition, some characters have to be on the low end of the distribution, and even a character with various tools is at the bottom if 50 other characters are considered better.

When will the tier list be updated?
We are aiming for an update after the summer events, which puts the tentative date somewhere in August.

Analysis of DLC characters and regional differences

Standard deviations were large across the board; the degree of consensus was low outside of some characters at the top and bottom. Some people suspected that standard deviations would be particularly high for the more recent DLC additions, but this was not necessarily the case. There were, however, some interesting regional differences and many community comments regarding the DLC characters, so we will zoom in on them in turn.

@Shaya compiled the votes among Japanese and European voters. Keep in mind that there were only 6 Japanese and 8 European voters, making these numbers indicative of trends, but unfit for sweeping statements.

Spoiler: Japanese votes

Character | Average Placement | Standard Deviation | Gap
Zero Suit Samus | 20.0 | 0.0 | 0.0
Sheik | 20.0 | 0.0 | 0.0
Cloud | 19.5 | 0.764 | 0.5
Sonic | 19.17 | 0.687 | 0.333
Rosalina | 19.17 | 0.373 | 0.0
Meta Knight | 19.0 | 0.0 | 0.167
Villager | 18.17 | 1.067 | 0.833
Diddy Kong | 18.0 | 0.577 | 0.167
Pikachu | 17.5 | 0.5 | 0.5
Ryu | 17.33 | 1.106 | 0.167
Fox | 17.33 | 0.471 | 0.0
Ness | 16.83 | 0.687 | 0.5
Mario | 16.67 | 0.943 | 0.167
Pit | 16.5 | 0.764 | 0.167
Captain Falcon | 16.0 | 1.155 | 0.5
Dark Pit | 15.0 | 1.528 | 1.0
Yoshi | 14.5 | 0.957 | 0.5
Toon Link | 14.0 | 1.155 | 0.5
Peach | 13.83 | 1.344 | 0.167
Wario | 13.83 | 0.373 | 0.0
Lucario | 13.5 | 0.957 | 0.333
Olimar | 13.33 | 1.491 | 0.167
R.O.B. | 12.5 | 0.957 | 0.833
Bowser | 12.33 | 1.795 | 0.167
Duck Hunt Dog | 12.0 | 1.826 | 0.333
Pac-Man | 12.0 | 1.0 | 0.0
Luigi | 11.5 | 1.118 | 0.5
Mega Man | 11.5 | 0.957 | 0.0
Mewtwo | 11.17 | 0.687 | 0.333
Shulk | 11.0 | 2.38 | 0.167
Mr. Game & Watch | 10.83 | 1.344 | 0.167
Greninja | 10.17 | 1.951 | 0.667
Robin | 9.67 | 1.106 | 0.5
Ike | 9.5 | 0.764 | 0.167
Donkey Kong | 9.17 | 1.572 | 0.333
Link | 8.5 | 1.803 | 0.667
Bowser Jr. | 8.5 | 1.5 | 0.0
Dr. Mario | 7.67 | 2.494 | 0.833
Mii Gunner | 7.33 | 2.211 | 0.333
Lucas | 7.17 | 1.675 | 0.167
King Dedede | 7.17 | 0.687 | 0.0
Palutena | 7.0 | 1.155 | 0.167
Marth | 6.0 | 0.816 | 1.0
Little Mac | 5.83 | 2.034 | 0.167
Roy | 5.67 | 1.795 | 0.167
Wii Fit Trainer | 5.33 | 1.106 | 0.333
Falco | 5.0 | 1.633 | 0.333
Mii Brawler | 4.83 | 1.462 | 0.167
Charizard | 4.67 | 1.7 | 0.167
Samus | 4.33 | 1.795 | 0.333
Kirby | 4.33 | 1.374 | 0.0
Lucina | 3.83 | 1.462 | 0.5
Ganondorf | 3.83 | 1.462 | 0.0
Jigglypuff | 2.67 | 1.106 | 1.167
Zelda | 1.83 | 0.373 | 0.833
Mii Swordsman | 1.17 | 0.373 | 0.667

Spoiler: European votes

Character | Average Placement | Standard Deviation | Gap
Sheik | 20.0 | 0.0 | 0.0
Zero Suit Samus | 19.5 | 0.5 | 0.5
Rosalina | 18.83 | 0.687 | 0.667
Pikachu | 18.67 | 0.745 | 0.167
Ryu | 18.0 | 0.577 | 0.667
Sonic | 17.5 | 1.118 | 0.5
Mario | 17.33 | 0.943 | 0.167
Fox | 17.17 | 1.344 | 0.167
Meta Knight | 17.17 | 1.067 | 0.0
Diddy Kong | 17.17 | 0.687 | 0.0
Villager | 16.5 | 1.5 | 0.667
Yoshi | 16.33 | 0.745 | 0.167
Cloud | 16.33 | 0.471 | 0.0
Ness | 15.83 | 0.687 | 0.5
Captain Falcon | 14.5 | 0.5 | 1.333
Luigi | 14.17 | 1.772 | 0.333
Toon Link | 13.67 | 0.745 | 0.5
Greninja | 13.5 | 2.566 | 0.167
R.O.B. | 13.33 | 2.055 | 0.167
Peach | 13.17 | 2.115 | 0.167
Wario | 13.17 | 1.344 | 0.0
Dark Pit | 12.67 | 1.491 | 0.5
Pit | 12.5 | 1.5 | 0.167
Lucario | 11.83 | 1.462 | 0.667
Mega Man | 11.67 | 2.625 | 0.167
Donkey Kong | 11.33 | 2.494 | 0.333
Olimar | 11.17 | 2.478 | 0.167
Ike | 10.83 | 2.672 | 0.333
Bowser | 10.0 | 3.606 | 0.833
Pac-Man | 10.0 | 1.291 | 0.0
Mr. Game & Watch | 8.83 | 1.951 | 1.167
Roy | 8.67 | 2.749 | 0.167
Robin | 8.0 | 3.109 | 0.667
King Dedede | 8.0 | 2.53 | 0.0
Wii Fit Trainer | 8.0 | 2.16 | 0.0
Mewtwo | 7.5 | 1.893 | 0.5
Bowser Jr. | 7.17 | 2.544 | 0.333
Dr. Mario | 7.17 | 1.772 | 0.0
Shulk | 7.0 | 1.732 | 0.167
Link | 6.83 | 2.339 | 0.167
Falco | 6.67 | 2.925 | 0.167
Marth | 6.67 | 2.494 | 0.0
Kirby | 6.33 | 4.028 | 0.333
Duck Hunt Dog | 6.33 | 1.374 | 0.0
Little Mac | 6.0 | 3.109 | 0.333
Mii Brawler | 6.0 | 3.098 | 0.0
Lucas | 5.33 | 1.886 | 0.667
Palutena | 4.5 | 0.764 | 0.833
Lucina | 4.33 | 2.211 | 0.167
Charizard | 3.67 | 2.625 | 0.667
Samus | 3.5 | 1.979 | 0.167
Jigglypuff | 3.17 | 2.339 | 0.333
Mii Gunner | 2.4 | 0.8 | 0.767
Ganondorf | 2.17 | 0.687 | 0.233
Mii Swordsman | 2.0 | 1.549 | 0.167
Zelda | 1.17 | 0.373 | 0.833

At the time of voting, Cloud was the most recent addition to the cast. We were fortunate to immediately receive a major showcase of the character at Genesis 3, where various Japanese players in attendance mained or secondaried him. Although he mainly dominated doubles and ended up not making it into singles top 8, players like Komorikiri showed that the swordsman was not to be trifled with.

It is perhaps unsurprising then that our group of 6 Japanese voters put Cloud at #3 on average, a stark contrast to his #12 placing in the final list and #13 placing among European voters. Time will tell which is closer to the truth, but with powerhouses like Mew2King picking him up in the western hemisphere as well, he will no doubt continue to stay relevant. For further insights and expert opinions, you can read this article that was released earlier this month.



Lucas is noteworthy for his tier list placement having the fifth highest standard deviation among the entire cast; there is not much consensus on the character. The overall tier list put him at #36, while Japanese voters put him at a somewhat lower #40. The disparity in opinions is even more apparent when Europe comes into play: the European voters placed Lucas at #47, on average.

Although Europe has no high level Lucas players, as opposed to the USA with Pink Fresh and Japan with Taiheita, the character seems to have a general representation problem. When considering statistics such as the SmashBoards rankings, Lucas ranks poorly in representation at all levels of play and is found among clone characters like Dr. Mario and Lucina.

On that note, one can speculate that Lucas is largely overshadowed by his high-tier franchise counterpart Ness, who boasts more top-level mains, a quicker grab in conjunction with a lethal back-throw, and better aerials. Lucas does have an additional recovery option in a tether, a frame 2 jab, good followups from his (unfortunately, laggy) grab, and aerials that flow together well. This toolkit could very well allow him to surpass his low-tier peers in the right person's hands, and we hope the character will be fleshed out more.



Mewtwo was significantly buffed in the 1.1.3 patch, with moves connecting to each other more easily and less endlag on his aerials. Despite several people moving him up over the voting process as a result of these buffs, we have to own up to the fact that the 4BR does not have much representation for Mewtwo among membership. The Japanese voted him at #29, while Europe put him at #36 and the finalized list at #37.

Although he did not make a splash at Genesis 3 and we have already established that he is a clear cut above bottom tier, it could turn out that his buffs were underrated in the long run. We were happy to get some insights from 4BR member and established high level player @TheReflexWonder, who recently invested a lot of time in the character.

I'm -really- excited about Mewtwo in the new patch. He is undoubtedly the big winner there, getting multiple hitbox size increases, higher damage/knockback, significant aerial landing lag reductions, a bigger projectile he can now reasonably use in the air, walk/run speed increase from #21 to ~#10...I feel this character went from an afterthought to an actually-scary, tournament-viable threat.

Changes to aerials push his punish game a great distance. At any percent, hitting with N-Air and landing before the final hit gives you at least +6 frame advantage (ignoring increased numbers from potential Rage and frame syncing), meaning that N-Air -> D-Tilt is a true combo that can loop into itself as long as you have space to do it and the opponent isn't at especially high percents. It's also a confirm into Grab at all percents, and with decent Rage numbers, you can combo that into U-Tilt -> U-Smash at KO percents; all of these options are generally easier/better on fastfallers. The hits also last for 34 frames altogether with only five frames of endlag, making it a reliable way to punish airdodges in many situations. Two-frame gaps between the hits make it so you get hit if you drop shield early or try to buffer an option before he lands.

F-Air got faster and has four fewer frames of landing lag. Shorthop airdodge -> fastfall F-Air is -6 on shield/+1 on shield drop, having great synergy with D-Tilt and empty landing grab. Hitting with it at low-mid percents in that scenario will generally get you another follow-up, usually another aerial (F-Air strings are not uncommon, and it sets up for N-Air loops at low percents).

U-Air got significant BKB and now works a lot like Falco's, comboing into itself and other aerials when moving upward with it, as well as making it a reasonably KO option. Reduced landing lag makes it safe on shield when crossing people up.

While he can still struggle against characters applying relentless pressure, his punish game, large hitboxes, and above-average movement speed all carry him up, and I feel that will become more apparent over time.

Roy had the second highest standard deviation for this tier list, second only to Kirby. While the overall tier list and European voters put him at #32, the Japanese voters put him at #45, further indicating the lack of consensus on the fiery swordsman. Roy has had one of the more interesting runs so far, and we got Fire Emblem enthusiast @Shaya to elaborate on his position.

When Roy first came out, there was a lot of hype through social media and the community in general--"Roy's our Boy" syndrome perhaps. People were expecting a monster, but the hype was deflated shortly after and there hasn't been anything significant to change people's stances on him.

What has driven the (initial) high opinion on Roy is the very easy comparison one can make with Marth. If you directly compare their specs and moveset, Roy wins significantly in terms of mobility in addition to better frame data, weight, damage, kill power, throw game and sword disjoints (keep in mind this was before the latest patch). While Marth and Roy aren't a complete subset of one another in matchups or moveset, the positive contrasts lead Roy's supporters to feel he can more readily compete against the top tiers, who generally have high mobility and damage output of their own.

The argument goes both ways however; with his more vulnerable recovery, less emphasis on reward for good spacing and his fast faller specs making him a lot more combo-prone, he often has a worse time in matchups both swordsmen struggle in. This inability to have Roy considered on his own merits has muddied opinions on him, though the same can be argued for Lucas and base cast members like Dr. Mario and Lucina.

With the latest patch (1.1.4) Roy received some love on his aerial landing lag, increasing his potency on his main zoning and damaging tools. This will definitely help him out, but won't extensively change his matchup spread. At the same time, Marth received considerable buffs and the argument between the two will be renewed, with a lot more weight behind Marth to close the gap, or widen it further in the Japanese perception.

Ryu ended up at a very high #4, leading the pack of characters right after top tier. Once again we find noteworthy regional differences, with the Japanese putting Ryu at #10 on average, while European voters considered him #5 after Pikachu. The 4BR is fortunate to count @Trela among its ranks, one of the players pushing the character the hardest. He had this to say:

There's a lot to consider when figuring out where to place a character on a tier list, from results, to frame data, to match-up spreads, you name it. But something you should always take note of, I believe, is a character's punish game. This is where Ryu shines the most. One simple screw-up in neutral and you take an unreasonable amount of percent, or better yet, get KO'd incredibly early. The best part? Just about everything he has is guaranteed. If I had to describe competitive Smash 4 in one word, it would be just that. And this is not something that's only exclusive to Ryu, of course. You'll find that every character in top tier has something of the sort that works at a certain percentage range that makes them so deadly to play against, and there's a reason they do it better than the characters below them on the rest of the tier list.

To go into a little more of why I rate the punish game in a character so highly, well, let's face it. We're not all perfect. Never can we play at our 100% best, and if we did, I'm sure we'd all be playing Sheik by now, timing each other out because no one would ever be able to land a hit on anyone with anything other than Needles. But that can't be farther from the truth. When you think about Ryu's weaknesses and what holds him back as a competitor, you think, "Oh, well he has a hard time catching someone who's keeping him out and running away from him." Well, you're not entirely wrong. But something I've learned over my time with playing Ryu, over my time with experiencing many different types of match-ups and playstyles, is this:

You can only run away for so long.

So long before you put yourself in a bad spot where you can no longer run. So long before you mess up. So long before you lose the lead. Make no mistake, it's going to happen. And it's going to happen more often than you'd like to think.

While not a DLC character, Greninja is worth mentioning for being another character with large regional differences in perception. The tier list puts him at #25, while Japan puts him at #32 and Europe puts him at #18. The latter continent has three notable Greninja mains in @istudying (the Netherlands), Elexiao (France) and Eddy (Germany). We asked iStudying, who is a 4BR member, to share some insights into Greninja's current situation.

Hey everyone, My name is iStudying. I am ranked second in Smash 4 in the Netherlands, right after Mr-R. I have been playing competitive Smash Bros. since Brawl (2008), where I mained Diddy Kong. When Smash 4 came out I immediately started maining Greninja, because he was different and his playing style fit me.

At the moment Greninja is ranked low Mid Tier (E), but I know that he is a much better character than that. I feel like people just haven’t seen enough Greninja players in action. As someone who played him since the beginning, I think some of his disadvantaged matchups are Sheik and Fox, but even those are 40:60 at worst.

Greninja has a notable flaw, which is that he has to commit with almost everything he does. However, he also has a lot of potential with great mobility, killing power, setups etc. By mastering him, you will not only notice the fun and flashiness of the character, but also reap the benefits this character has relative to other characters in the game.

Greninja is underrated and people should look into him more. I expect him to rise in the tier list and if you want to see what this character is capable of, look out for players like Some (Japan), Venia (America) and myself (Europe).

Splashing out.

Conclusion

We hope these explanations have shed some light on why the tier list was released when it was and provided food for thought on some of the more hotly debated characters. With (now) 58 characters on the roster and many of them still underexplored, or only dominant in certain regions, it will be interesting to see where people take their characters and how international clashes turn out. As always, we'll be looking forward to your thoughts in the comments below.

Thanks go out to @Shaya for providing data on votes per region and @Zigsta for various contributions and ideas.

 

I'm pretty disappointed that sheik wasn't nerfed properly in the last patch. There's not going to be anymore balance patches either, so I'm quite worried about the future of smash 4. we'll see...

 

Smash 4 such a mess

 

I don't really know why Luigi is ranked so much worse than Mario, and ranked below characters like Falcon and Yoshi as well.

He lost his silly down throw to down b kill confirm, okay. He was easily top 10, possibly top 6 before that nerf. But his combo game at low percents is still one of the best in the game and for the most part he has the same kill options as Mario does with an arguably better recovery. Even after his nerfs the character is still seeing success and getting results.

Compare that to Falcon and Yoshi, who are getting no results.

Placing Luigi that low doesn't make any sense. He should be on the low end of A tier or at worst the high end of B tier.

He has a lot of weaknesses that keep him out of top 15. Horrible, air speed, bad recovery (made worse by the air speed), weak combos past 50%ish, and more. He's by no means top 10 material anymore. He is definitely top 20, though.

By the way, could you link me to any post-patch sets with Luigi? I have literally seen no rep for him after the nerf.

 

Smash 4 such a mess

Wut?

 

Wut?

Pumping out tier lists to please the people whining about tiers

 

"...it seems like many people are hung up on what it meant to be a low tier in other Smash games, with Brawl being the most direct comparison."

Man I am glad someone said that. I got scolded on a certain character's board and had my posts deleted for saying the same thing, telling me I was "instigating."

 

I'm getting tired of people bringing up Nairo vs Nietono when talking about Smash 4 balance or Zelda not being the worst. That was back in the Apex days. Nietono drowned in pools to Falcons and then switched off Sheik too lol

he switched back to sheik though

but your point is valid

 

He has a lot of weaknesses that keep him out of top 15. Horrible, air speed, bad recovery (made worse by the air speed), weak combos past 50%ish, and more. He's by no means top 10 material anymore. He is definitely top 20, though.

By the way, could you link me to any post-patch sets with Luigi? I have literally seen no rep for him after the nerf.

LOE1 took 9th at Dismantle 2. WiiASE took 2nd (dual-playing Ryu) at Eclipse. DandyPenguin took 9th at Tipped Off 11. Mr ConCon still puts in performances.

Players like Boss and Poyo are still making him work too. Denti also has a secondary Luigi that does quite well for him.

 

I actually had no idea Poyo had a Luigi.

 

Kirby mid tier
no bias
none at all

 

LOE1 took 9th at Dismantle 2. WiiASE took 2nd (dual-playing Ryu) at Eclipse. DandyPenguin took 9th at Tipped Off 11. Mr ConCon still puts in performances.

Players like Boss and Poyo are still making him work too. Denti also has a secondary Luigi that does quite well for him.

I had no idea that Poyo had a Luigi. That's probably because I don't watch SAX.

 

Captain Falcon has gotten a lot higher after being placed in low tier in Brawl, but not high as in Melee and N64.

 

I'd have loved a write-ups on Kirby... I'd think the character with the highest deviation deserves one, no?

 

It's about time is getting the recognition he deserves.

 

Mewtwo will end up being high tier someday. I know it. Just wait and watch.

 

I really hope. Really hope. That the Backroomers take a harder look at some characters like Shulk, Dedede, Palutena, Marth, Lucina, Lucas, Mewtwo, and holy christ, Samus. If you pay attention to the players who main these characters they can do consistently well. The palu mains like Aerolink or TLTC nearly always finish in the top 8. Shulk mains just found an incredible new tech that gets rid of their landing lag from aerials completely. Dededesgusting is a must-see video series for aspiring Dedede mains. I feel like people write off these characters so easily, but when you pay attention to the results they get there's no reason to put them that low. And Samus especially, who wasn't really terrible to begin with and has received numerous buffs. It's good to see them noticing the Marth/Lucas/Mewtwo buffs, but please, give that same amount of care and attention to all of the characters. I realize you have less incentive to pay close attention to unpopular characters that most people have written off, but every character deserves the same amount of attention, even if there's more than 50 of them

 

That moment when Wii Fit Trainer is higher than Jigglypuff.

Not like it bothers me since Miss Fit is a bag of tricks in combat while Puff lost her edge over the years. Can't be any worse than Zelda.

 

I really hope. Really hope. That the Backroomers take a harder look at some characters like Shulk, Dedede, Palutena, Marth, Lucina, Lucas, Mewtwo, and holy christ, Samus. If you pay attention to the players who main these characters they can do consistently well. The palu mains like Aerolink or TLTC nearly always finish in the top 8. Shulk mains just found an incredible new tech that gets rid of their landing lag from aerials completely. Dededesgusting is a must-see video series for aspiring Dedede mains. I feel like people write off these characters so easily, but when you pay attention to the results they get there's no reason to put them that low. And Samus especially, who wasn't really terrible to begin with and has received numerous buffs. It's good to see them noticing the Marth/Lucas/Mewtwo buffs, but please, give that same amount of care and attention to all of the characters. I realize you have less incentive to pay close attention to unpopular characters that most people have written off, but every character deserves the same amount of attention, even if there's more than 50 of them

AeroLink mains Bayonetta full time now. Prince Ramen and Iceninja are just as prominent as TLTC, but in the underexposed regions of Central Florida and Toronto. Watch out for Iceninja at GOML.

 

Character wise I think theres too many with potential to really now who should go where. But i hope to see a few characters gain more rep like toon link, greninja, lucario, duck hunt, and zelda.

 

I hate the fact that there's a J tier, if only because I think it should be a Z tier.

You know, because all of those characters are utter garbage huehuehuehue

[In all honesty, all of you Samus mains have my condolences.]

 

AeroLink mains Bayonetta full time now. Prince Ramen and Iceninja are just as prominent as TLTC, but in the underexposed regions of Central Florida and Toronto. Watch out for Iceninja at GOML.

TLTC plays in a significantly harder region and IMO at his best performances he's displayed a higher skill/achievements than the others. For example, TLTC vs Shaky at G3.

Anyway I agree with Maraphy. While understandable, it sucks when you know that there's a real lack of informed opinion on many characters.

BTW Maraphy when you're talking about the new tech that gets rid of landing lag on Shulk's aerials... are you talking about MALLC? Cus that was known pretty much since the start of Smash 4 =/

 

Can someone answer me now why is a character that was used to take a game off of ZeRo in a Top 8 one month ago considered freaking J Tier?

Because consistent results, and not single games, determine tier list placements.

And Samus especially, who wasn't really terrible to begin with and has received numerous buffs.

Samus has not received "numerous buffs". She's received a handful of hitbox fixes to moves like nair, fair and usmash, and better launch power on usmash. That's about it that's notable. They actually nerfed her ftilt for no apparent reason. What are these "numerous buffs" you're talking about?

 

There's no reason for Diddy not to be Top 4, under Rosalina or potentially even challenging Rosalina for her spot. All other characters around him are way too shakey, I even think MetaKnight is beter than Pikachu, Ryu, Mario, Sonic and Fox...

 

I really hope. Really hope. That the Backroomers take a harder look at some characters like Shulk, Dedede, Palutena, Marth, Lucina, Lucas, Mewtwo, and holy christ, Samus. If you pay attention to the players who main these characters they can do consistently well. The palu mains like Aerolink or TLTC nearly always finish in the top 8. Shulk mains just found an incredible new tech that gets rid of their landing lag from aerials completely. Dededesgusting is a must-see video series for aspiring Dedede mains. I feel like people write off these characters so easily, but when you pay attention to the results they get there's no reason to put them that low. And Samus especially, who wasn't really terrible to begin with and has received numerous buffs. It's good to see them noticing the Marth/Lucas/Mewtwo buffs, but please, give that same amount of care and attention to all of the characters. I realize you have less incentive to pay close attention to unpopular characters that most people have written off, but every character deserves the same amount of attention, even if there's more than 50 of them

So does Zelda, yet she's placed dead last.

 

There's no reason for Diddy not to be Top 4, under Rosalina or potentially even challenging Rosalina for her spot. All other characters around him are way too shakey, I even think MetaKnight is beter than Pikachu, Ryu, Mario, Sonic and Fox...

I like how you always defend the little Kong as being top 5. Once a Kong, always a Kong!

I'm not sure really where I would put him but he could definitely be a top 5 contender.

 

I like how you always defend the little Kong as being top 5. Once a Kong, always a Kong!

I'm not sure really where I would put him but he could definitely be a top 5 contender.

Yeah I seriously consider him better than Ryu, and should potentially be S tier like Sheik, Rosalina and ZSS, because he's just that much better than others I feel. In Diddy lies insane potential, because he's an extremely adaptive character, with a lot of effective options. I daresay he has more options than even characters as Sheik and ZSS.

He also has the best matchups in the game vs the agile ladies ; he goes pretty much even with Sheik, and slightly beats Zero Suit Samus. Only matchup he loses is Rosalina. Mario is slightly uncomfortable, so is Villager, but he beats ZSS, MetaKnight and goes pretty much even against the rest. Rosalina is a problem, but she doesn't have much representation anyway. About Pikachu, I also think we beat him, but just slightly. ZeRo totally BODIED ESAM in friendlies with his Diddy. And I do think ZeRo is the best reprentation of this character's potential; highly addaptive, fit to handle any situation, and epic combos for days.

And he's not losing to lower tiers either, only Olimar could pose a challenge and he goes even with the likes of Peach, Pit(s) and Greninja. Luigi doesn't pose much of a problem either and am not too confident that Cloud or Corrin could pose a serious treat to him once Diddys learn to get past their flashy sword shenanigans.

ZeRo is gonna keep using Sheik and Diddy most likely, and he's still gonna win 75% of his tournaments easily with both. I don't see why his Sheik gets all the praise when his Diddy is equally able to beat the strongest character in the game (Sheiks) played by top players.

It just doesn't add up, and if Pikachu gets #6 on a theoretical basis and because ESAM is so good at him... Why can't Diddy?

I swear, ZeRo using Diddy alone would win more in tournaments than ESAM using Pikachu alone.

 

Yeah I seriously consider him better than Ryu, and should potentially be S tier like Sheik, Rosalina and ZSS, because he's just that much better than others I feel. In Diddy lies insane potential, because he's an extremely adaptive character, with a lot of effective options. I daresay he has more options than even characters as Sheik and ZSS.

He also has the best matchups in the game vs the agile ladies ; he goes pretty much even with Sheik, and slightly beats Zero Suit Samus. Only matchup he loses is Rosalina. Mario is slightly uncomfortable, so is Villager, but he beats ZSS, MetaKnight and goes pretty much even against the rest. Rosalina is a problem, but she doesn't have much representation anyway. About Pikachu, I also think we beat him, but just slightly. ZeRo totally BODIED ESAM in friendlies with his Diddy. And I do think ZeRo is the best reprentation of this character's potential; highly addaptive, fit to handle any situation, and epic combos for days.

And he's not losing to lower tiers either, only Olimar could pose a challenge and he goes even with the likes of Peach, Pit(s) and Greninja. Luigi doesn't pose much of a problem either and am not too confident that Cloud or Corrin could pose a serious treat to him once Diddys learn to get past their flashy sword shenanigans.

ZeRo is gonna keep using Sheik and Diddy most likely, and he's still gonna win 75% of his tournaments easily with both. I don't see why his Sheik gets all the praise when his Diddy is equally able to beat the strongest character in the game (Sheiks) played by top players.

It just doesn't add up, and if Pikachu gets #6 on a theoretical basis and because ESAM is so good at him... Why can't Diddy?

I swear, ZeRo using Diddy alone would win more in tournaments than ESAM using Pikachu alone.

I'm not sure about him being S tier. However, I do realize that he has a lot of potential. Banana will always be an amazing move, he's so fast, agile and has a great grab and throws. He definitely has many virtues.

The problems I notice are that his recovery is a bit rough and people are figuring out how to get around Banana. Since his whole play style revolves around Banana, he has to be really careful with how he uses it. I just feel like people are adapting to that more and more. Learning how to grab his Banana out of the air, off the ground, even when he throws it directly at them.

Even though he has issues, he's definitely a great character. It would be cool if there were more Diddy mains but even just having ZeRo playing him is good enough. The fact that he gets such consistent results against top players with Diddy is a pretty good sign.

Hopefully, people begin to realize that even though the Kong was nerfed, he's still got worlds of potential.

 

ZSS.
Sonic.

Both are very very possible with mains of both taking SETS off of ZeRo (Seagull and Nairo) and other players showing that sheik isn't ridiculously dominant with rosa, pikachu, cloud, diddy; basically the entire top tier with select high tier characters providing evidence against sheik's supposed domination of the meta (Dabuz, ESAM, Komorikiri, ZeRo, MVD?, ranai, Larry Lurr?, etc...). Even if Sheik doesn't have many even Matchups NOW (cuz you know, those develop overtime. Look at brawl in its later life. MK had even MUs in ics and diddy and had small advantage against the rest of the top tiers. Notice how I didn't list ZSS, who won apex 2013. She's not even top), that doesn't necessarily correlate to domiance. Fox loses to nobody (stage selection isn't a consisent factor to consider when talking about disadvantageous/advantageous MUs) and yet he's one of the most inconsisent characters in melee. This is largely due to his execution requirement, but it's notable trivia regardless.

Don't forget ANTi's Mario against Zero's Sheik. Anti lost the set overall but still gave Zero a run for his money--Sheik is good, but not as good as somd people blindly think--remember the player behind her never lost a tournament for his first year of playing.
The balance in this game is the closest it's ever been in Smash... I feel like the gap between tiers are closer than they've ever been before.
But that's just me!

 

I can get behind the placements, but if this is supposedly one of if not THE most balanced smash game, why is it the first time we're seeing H, I and J tiers? imo that's misleading...I really wish the old system of + and - had been applied....but oh well xD

 

I really, really hope some top players play Lucas again and that he gets more rep. He has so much potential and the fact that he's not at least middle tier upsets me.

 

I have to agree with Frank. I might be inclined to complain about Bowser's tier placement but I never feel like I lose a match because the matchup is bad, unless it truly is utterly atrocious for Bowser. I feel like Smash 4 is pretty well balanced and that it comes down to skill more often than not.

 

Charizard? Below Dedede? I'm...not feeling that.

I don't recall ever seeing more Dededes than Charizards at major tournaments, actually; in fact, I recall people like Bengalz have been pushing the Charizard meta quite well, M2K likes playing Charizard in friendlies and even Zer0 says that Charizard's underrepped for his viability.

Meanwhile, Dedede's been sort of languishing in obscurity for a while now, with only a few major Dedede mains being able to place in tournaments. And Dedede hasn't even been getting the consistent buffs Charizard has throughout patches, either, so it can't be because of that.

Charizard's been seeing more use as time goes on, while Dedede isn't. If customs were the accepted norm, I am 100% certain that Charizard would be considered indisputably better than Dedede and would have more rep. 100%.

Even without customs, though, Charizard is just better than Dedede. Better horizontal recovery, better framedata, better projectiles, smaller hitbox...he's just overall better. Charizard is the Captain Falcon to Dedede's Ganondorf; sure, the latter is more powerful technically, but the former is more viable because they have a combination of speed and power.

Charizard's no Bowser, but he's certainly more effective than Dedede, at least to me.

 

I am~

Falcon and Greninja have a lot of potential IMO.
Sadly, not many people aren't putting work with these two

 

Time to prove that Roy and Kirby shouldnt be so low.

 

Time to prove that Roy and Kirby shouldnt be so low.

Roy is pretty mediocre though.

 

Charizard? Below Dedede? I'm...not feeling that.

I don't recall ever seeing more Dededes than Charizards at major tournaments, actually; in fact, I recall people like Bengalz have been pushing the Charizard meta quite well, M2K likes playing Charizard in friendlies and even Zer0 says that Charizard's underrepped for his viability.

Meanwhile, Dedede's been sort of languishing in obscurity for a while now, with only a few major Dedede mains being able to place in tournaments. And Dedede hasn't even been getting the consistent buffs Charizard has throughout patches, either, so it can't be because of that.

Charizard's been seeing more use as time goes on, while Dedede isn't. If customs were the accepted norm, I am 100% certain that Charizard would be considered indisputably better than Dedede and would have more rep. 100%.

Even without customs, though, Charizard is just better than Dedede. Better horizontal recovery, better framedata, better projectiles, smaller hitbox...he's just overall better. Charizard is the Captain Falcon to Dedede's Ganondorf; sure, the latter is more powerful technically, but the former is more viable because they have a combination of speed and power.

Charizard's no Bowser, but he's certainly more effective than Dedede, at least to me.

What rep has Charizard received in terms of majors? At least BigD does decent at majors. Dedede has a great combo game out of throws, while Charizard gets dthrow fair at low percents. Charizard can't land and has all of the problems of heavies without any gimmick that lets him stand a chance vs actually good characters. Also please explain how a projectile that has little use outside of getting a few extra % at the ledge and occasionally stuffing the approach of an unsuspecting opponent is better than a powerful projectile that effectively frame traps opponents and sets up for KOs? Maybe with customs he'd be okay, but customs are not legal, therefore they mean nothing. If anything he should be lower than characters that have received some results and proven they have a niche in the meta.

Well, now that we have a starting point with the tier list, when will we be getting a matchup spread? From what I've read on this forum (which to be fair wasn't much, so take my words with a keg of salt), there's been at least somewhat of a consensus with matchups, I'd say comparable to that of this tier list, so I'd like to see a chart hopefully come soon - not holding my breath, though.

I really have no idea how they expect to make a good matchup spread without even having full character representation. Honestly it's a bit presumptuous to believe that you can dictate a character's matchups without any input from actual representatives of that character. We'll see if biases shine through when the matchup chart is released though.

 

my biggest gripe about tier lists for this game is that it is oversimplifying things way too much...

S tier should be reserved for chars that have special properties that without a doubt give them a distinct advantage over the rest of the cast... for instance in sm4sh... if a small handful of chars could melee wave dash and for that reason they were the best chars in the game, well then that would be a good time to break out the S ranking... the mvc2 chars that could 8-way airdash is something that comes to my mind as S tier worthy...

the "S" tier chars in sm4sh are just very good... comfortable to execute with... and have some of the least risky rewards to be had... but they are by no means S tier.

the tier lists for sm4sh would work better if they were more a ranking of how viable the character is rather than a description of how powerful the character is...

 

Yeah, I'm with the others on thinking having so many letters is the wrong way to approach the list. I get needing to have more places to rank characters with how many more of them there are than in previous games, but at the same time, the characters are closer to each other in viability than they were in previous games! It feels weird having a 10 tier difference between the best and worst characters in Smash 4 when they're actually closer to each other than games where we've only used 8 or fewer tiers!

I dunno, I would've brought out the pluses and minuses. The lowest tier would've been D-, not J. Feels like it better represents how its characters aren't any good, but they still aren't trash tier like Melee and Brawl's bottom tiers.

 

ZSS.
Sonic.

Both are very very possible with mains of both taking SETS off of ZeRo (Seagull and Nairo) and other players showing that sheik isn't ridiculously dominant with rosa, pikachu, cloud, diddy; basically the entire top tier with select high tier characters providing evidence against sheik's supposed domination of the meta (Dabuz, ESAM, Komorikiri, ZeRo, MVD?, ranai, Larry Lurr?, etc...). Even if Sheik doesn't have many even Matchups NOW (cuz you know, those develop overtime. Look at brawl in its later life. MK had even MUs in ics and diddy and had small advantage against the rest of the top tiers. Notice how I didn't list ZSS, who won apex 2013. She's not even top), that doesn't necessarily correlate to domiance. Fox loses to nobody (stage selection isn't a consisent factor to consider when talking about disadvantageous/advantageous MUs) and yet he's one of the most inconsisent characters in melee. This is largely due to his execution requirement, but it's notable trivia regardless.

I think vs is even. No has ever made me feel otherwise. I'm good at that matchup for reasons I can't figure out LOL.

 

Is nobody going to bring up how is 24th according to Japan's votes, yet 43rd according to America and Europe's votes?