Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List Followup

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Earlier this month, the 4BR released the first official tier list for Smash Bros. for Wii U:

This time, we want to address some frequently asked questions and dive a little deeper into the results.

Frequently Asked Questions

Why did the 4BR release a tier list only a few days before a new patch?

A tier list isn’t created overnight and there is never a perfect time. We started creation of this first tier list back in December, on a build that left the majority of the cast relatively untouched and introduced only one new character. We ended up extending the process to include Genesis 3 as a case study and were already close to the final release when the announcement of the 1.1.4 patch happened.

We always knew that there were two more characters on the way, which we didn’t consider too major a problem in the sense that a tier list is a part of history that gets updated over time. Ideally, this would not have been the first list, but patches and major tournaments kept happening too quickly on short notice to find a period of relative stability.

Does the 1.1.4 patch invalidate the tier list?

For the most part, no. Most characters did not change significantly, as can be seen in the patch notes for 1.1.4. The biggest buffs befell Toon Link, Falco, Marth/Lucina, Roy, Ike and Little Mac, while Bowser lost his kill confirm from upthrow at higher percentages as the most significant nerf.

It is too early to judge the impact Bayonetta and Corrin have on the metagame, and we won’t have a major tournament to look at until Pound 2016 in April. The alternative to handling the tier list the way we did would have been postponing the project for multiple months, at which point we would have to consider postponing it further to include the onslaught of summer events.

Why is my favourite character considered low tier?

Besides the fact that very few individuals will 100% agree with any given tier list, it seems like many people are hung up on what it meant to be a low tier in other Smash games, with Brawl being the most direct comparison. Smash 4 is a relatively balanced game for various reasons, and we have a tournament example of a top player beating another top player in a matchup of the worst character in the game against the best character in the game. By definition, some characters have to be on the low end of the distribution, and even a character with various tools is at the bottom if 50 other characters are considered better.

When will the tier list be updated?
We are aiming for an update after the summer events, which puts the tentative date somewhere in August.

Analysis of DLC characters and regional differences

Standard deviations were large across the board; the degree of consensus was low outside of some characters at the top and bottom. Some people suspected that standard deviations would be particularly high for the more recent DLC additions, but this was not necessarily the case. There were, however, some interesting regional differences and many community comments regarding the DLC characters, so we will zoom in on them in turn.

@Shaya compiled the votes among Japanese and European voters. Keep in mind that there were only 6 Japanese and 8 European voters, making these numbers indicative of trends, but unfit for sweeping statements.

Spoiler: Japanese votes

Character | Average Placement | Standard Deviation | Gap
Zero Suit Samus | 20.0 | 0.0 | 0.0
Sheik | 20.0 | 0.0 | 0.0
Cloud | 19.5 | 0.764 | 0.5
Sonic | 19.17 | 0.687 | 0.333
Rosalina | 19.17 | 0.373 | 0.0
Meta Knight | 19.0 | 0.0 | 0.167
Villager | 18.17 | 1.067 | 0.833
Diddy Kong | 18.0 | 0.577 | 0.167
Pikachu | 17.5 | 0.5 | 0.5
Ryu | 17.33 | 1.106 | 0.167
Fox | 17.33 | 0.471 | 0.0
Ness | 16.83 | 0.687 | 0.5
Mario | 16.67 | 0.943 | 0.167
Pit | 16.5 | 0.764 | 0.167
Captain Falcon | 16.0 | 1.155 | 0.5
Dark Pit | 15.0 | 1.528 | 1.0
Yoshi | 14.5 | 0.957 | 0.5
Toon Link | 14.0 | 1.155 | 0.5
Peach | 13.83 | 1.344 | 0.167
Wario | 13.83 | 0.373 | 0.0
Lucario | 13.5 | 0.957 | 0.333
Olimar | 13.33 | 1.491 | 0.167
R.O.B. | 12.5 | 0.957 | 0.833
Bowser | 12.33 | 1.795 | 0.167
Duck Hunt Dog | 12.0 | 1.826 | 0.333
Pac-Man | 12.0 | 1.0 | 0.0
Luigi | 11.5 | 1.118 | 0.5
Mega Man | 11.5 | 0.957 | 0.0
Mewtwo | 11.17 | 0.687 | 0.333
Shulk | 11.0 | 2.38 | 0.167
Mr. Game & Watch | 10.83 | 1.344 | 0.167
Greninja | 10.17 | 1.951 | 0.667
Robin | 9.67 | 1.106 | 0.5
Ike | 9.5 | 0.764 | 0.167
Donkey Kong | 9.17 | 1.572 | 0.333
Link | 8.5 | 1.803 | 0.667
Bowser Jr. | 8.5 | 1.5 | 0.0
Dr. Mario | 7.67 | 2.494 | 0.833
Mii Gunner | 7.33 | 2.211 | 0.333
Lucas | 7.17 | 1.675 | 0.167
King Dedede | 7.17 | 0.687 | 0.0
Palutena | 7.0 | 1.155 | 0.167
Marth | 6.0 | 0.816 | 1.0
Little Mac | 5.83 | 2.034 | 0.167
Roy | 5.67 | 1.795 | 0.167
Wii Fit Trainer | 5.33 | 1.106 | 0.333
Falco | 5.0 | 1.633 | 0.333
Mii Brawler | 4.83 | 1.462 | 0.167
Charizard | 4.67 | 1.7 | 0.167
Samus | 4.33 | 1.795 | 0.333
Kirby | 4.33 | 1.374 | 0.0
Lucina | 3.83 | 1.462 | 0.5
Ganondorf | 3.83 | 1.462 | 0.0
Jigglypuff | 2.67 | 1.106 | 1.167
Zelda | 1.83 | 0.373 | 0.833
Mii Swordsman | 1.17 | 0.373 | 0.667

Spoiler: European votes

Character | Average Placement | Standard Deviation | Gap
Sheik | 20.0 | 0.0 | 0.0
Zero Suit Samus | 19.5 | 0.5 | 0.5
Rosalina | 18.83 | 0.687 | 0.667
Pikachu | 18.67 | 0.745 | 0.167
Ryu | 18.0 | 0.577 | 0.667
Sonic | 17.5 | 1.118 | 0.5
Mario | 17.33 | 0.943 | 0.167
Fox | 17.17 | 1.344 | 0.167
Meta Knight | 17.17 | 1.067 | 0.0
Diddy Kong | 17.17 | 0.687 | 0.0
Villager | 16.5 | 1.5 | 0.667
Yoshi | 16.33 | 0.745 | 0.167
Cloud | 16.33 | 0.471 | 0.0
Ness | 15.83 | 0.687 | 0.5
Captain Falcon | 14.5 | 0.5 | 1.333
Luigi | 14.17 | 1.772 | 0.333
Toon Link | 13.67 | 0.745 | 0.5
Greninja | 13.5 | 2.566 | 0.167
R.O.B. | 13.33 | 2.055 | 0.167
Peach | 13.17 | 2.115 | 0.167
Wario | 13.17 | 1.344 | 0.0
Dark Pit | 12.67 | 1.491 | 0.5
Pit | 12.5 | 1.5 | 0.167
Lucario | 11.83 | 1.462 | 0.667
Mega Man | 11.67 | 2.625 | 0.167
Donkey Kong | 11.33 | 2.494 | 0.333
Olimar | 11.17 | 2.478 | 0.167
Ike | 10.83 | 2.672 | 0.333
Bowser | 10.0 | 3.606 | 0.833
Pac-Man | 10.0 | 1.291 | 0.0
Mr. Game & Watch | 8.83 | 1.951 | 1.167
Roy | 8.67 | 2.749 | 0.167
Robin | 8.0 | 3.109 | 0.667
King Dedede | 8.0 | 2.53 | 0.0
Wii Fit Trainer | 8.0 | 2.16 | 0.0
Mewtwo | 7.5 | 1.893 | 0.5
Bowser Jr. | 7.17 | 2.544 | 0.333
Dr. Mario | 7.17 | 1.772 | 0.0
Shulk | 7.0 | 1.732 | 0.167
Link | 6.83 | 2.339 | 0.167
Falco | 6.67 | 2.925 | 0.167
Marth | 6.67 | 2.494 | 0.0
Kirby | 6.33 | 4.028 | 0.333
Duck Hunt Dog | 6.33 | 1.374 | 0.0
Little Mac | 6.0 | 3.109 | 0.333
Mii Brawler | 6.0 | 3.098 | 0.0
Lucas | 5.33 | 1.886 | 0.667
Palutena | 4.5 | 0.764 | 0.833
Lucina | 4.33 | 2.211 | 0.167
Charizard | 3.67 | 2.625 | 0.667
Samus | 3.5 | 1.979 | 0.167
Jigglypuff | 3.17 | 2.339 | 0.333
Mii Gunner | 2.4 | 0.8 | 0.767
Ganondorf | 2.17 | 0.687 | 0.233
Mii Swordsman | 2.0 | 1.549 | 0.167
Zelda | 1.17 | 0.373 | 0.833

At the time of voting, Cloud was the most recent addition to the cast. We were fortunate to immediately receive a major showcase of the character at Genesis 3, where various Japanese players in attendance mained or secondaried him. Although he mainly dominated doubles and ended up not making it into singles top 8, players like Komorikiri showed that the swordsman was not to be trifled with.

It is perhaps unsurprising then that our group of 6 Japanese voters put Cloud at #3 on average, a stark contrast to his #12 placing in the final list and #13 placing among European voters. Time will tell which is closer to the truth, but with powerhouses like Mew2King picking him up in the western hemisphere as well, he will no doubt continue to stay relevant. For further insights and expert opinions, you can read this article that was released earlier this month.



Lucas is noteworthy for his tier list placement having the fifth highest standard deviation among the entire cast; there is not much consensus on the character. The overall tier list put him at #36, while Japanese voters put him at a somewhat lower #40. The disparity in opinions is even more apparent when Europe comes into play: the European voters placed Lucas at #47, on average.

Although Europe has no high level Lucas players, as opposed to the USA with Pink Fresh and Japan with Taiheita, the character seems to have a general representation problem. When considering statistics such as the SmashBoards rankings, Lucas ranks poorly in representation at all levels of play and is found among clone characters like Dr. Mario and Lucina.

On that note, one can speculate that Lucas is largely overshadowed by his high-tier franchise counterpart Ness, who boasts more top-level mains, a quicker grab in conjunction with a lethal back-throw, and better aerials. Lucas does have an additional recovery option in a tether, a frame 2 jab, good followups from his (unfortunately, laggy) grab, and aerials that flow together well. This toolkit could very well allow him to surpass his low-tier peers in the right person's hands, and we hope the character will be fleshed out more.



Mewtwo was significantly buffed in the 1.1.3 patch, with moves connecting to each other more easily and less endlag on his aerials. Despite several people moving him up over the voting process as a result of these buffs, we have to own up to the fact that the 4BR does not have much representation for Mewtwo among membership. The Japanese voted him at #29, while Europe put him at #36 and the finalized list at #37.

Although he did not make a splash at Genesis 3 and we have already established that he is a clear cut above bottom tier, it could turn out that his buffs were underrated in the long run. We were happy to get some insights from 4BR member and established high level player @TheReflexWonder, who recently invested a lot of time in the character.

I'm -really- excited about Mewtwo in the new patch. He is undoubtedly the big winner there, getting multiple hitbox size increases, higher damage/knockback, significant aerial landing lag reductions, a bigger projectile he can now reasonably use in the air, walk/run speed increase from #21 to ~#10...I feel this character went from an afterthought to an actually-scary, tournament-viable threat.

Changes to aerials push his punish game a great distance. At any percent, hitting with N-Air and landing before the final hit gives you at least +6 frame advantage (ignoring increased numbers from potential Rage and frame syncing), meaning that N-Air -> D-Tilt is a true combo that can loop into itself as long as you have space to do it and the opponent isn't at especially high percents. It's also a confirm into Grab at all percents, and with decent Rage numbers, you can combo that into U-Tilt -> U-Smash at KO percents; all of these options are generally easier/better on fastfallers. The hits also last for 34 frames altogether with only five frames of endlag, making it a reliable way to punish airdodges in many situations. Two-frame gaps between the hits make it so you get hit if you drop shield early or try to buffer an option before he lands.

F-Air got faster and has four fewer frames of landing lag. Shorthop airdodge -> fastfall F-Air is -6 on shield/+1 on shield drop, having great synergy with D-Tilt and empty landing grab. Hitting with it at low-mid percents in that scenario will generally get you another follow-up, usually another aerial (F-Air strings are not uncommon, and it sets up for N-Air loops at low percents).

U-Air got significant BKB and now works a lot like Falco's, comboing into itself and other aerials when moving upward with it, as well as making it a reasonably KO option. Reduced landing lag makes it safe on shield when crossing people up.

While he can still struggle against characters applying relentless pressure, his punish game, large hitboxes, and above-average movement speed all carry him up, and I feel that will become more apparent over time.

Roy had the second highest standard deviation for this tier list, second only to Kirby. While the overall tier list and European voters put him at #32, the Japanese voters put him at #45, further indicating the lack of consensus on the fiery swordsman. Roy has had one of the more interesting runs so far, and we got Fire Emblem enthusiast @Shaya to elaborate on his position.

When Roy first came out, there was a lot of hype through social media and the community in general--"Roy's our Boy" syndrome perhaps. People were expecting a monster, but the hype was deflated shortly after and there hasn't been anything significant to change people's stances on him.

What has driven the (initial) high opinion on Roy is the very easy comparison one can make with Marth. If you directly compare their specs and moveset, Roy wins significantly in terms of mobility in addition to better frame data, weight, damage, kill power, throw game and sword disjoints (keep in mind this was before the latest patch). While Marth and Roy aren't a complete subset of one another in matchups or moveset, the positive contrasts lead Roy's supporters to feel he can more readily compete against the top tiers, who generally have high mobility and damage output of their own.

The argument goes both ways however; with his more vulnerable recovery, less emphasis on reward for good spacing and his fast faller specs making him a lot more combo-prone, he often has a worse time in matchups both swordsmen struggle in. This inability to have Roy considered on his own merits has muddied opinions on him, though the same can be argued for Lucas and base cast members like Dr. Mario and Lucina.

With the latest patch (1.1.4) Roy received some love on his aerial landing lag, increasing his potency on his main zoning and damaging tools. This will definitely help him out, but won't extensively change his matchup spread. At the same time, Marth received considerable buffs and the argument between the two will be renewed, with a lot more weight behind Marth to close the gap, or widen it further in the Japanese perception.

Ryu ended up at a very high #4, leading the pack of characters right after top tier. Once again we find noteworthy regional differences, with the Japanese putting Ryu at #10 on average, while European voters considered him #5 after Pikachu. The 4BR is fortunate to count @Trela among its ranks, one of the players pushing the character the hardest. He had this to say:

There's a lot to consider when figuring out where to place a character on a tier list, from results, to frame data, to match-up spreads, you name it. But something you should always take note of, I believe, is a character's punish game. This is where Ryu shines the most. One simple screw-up in neutral and you take an unreasonable amount of percent, or better yet, get KO'd incredibly early. The best part? Just about everything he has is guaranteed. If I had to describe competitive Smash 4 in one word, it would be just that. And this is not something that's only exclusive to Ryu, of course. You'll find that every character in top tier has something of the sort that works at a certain percentage range that makes them so deadly to play against, and there's a reason they do it better than the characters below them on the rest of the tier list.

To go into a little more of why I rate the punish game in a character so highly, well, let's face it. We're not all perfect. Never can we play at our 100% best, and if we did, I'm sure we'd all be playing Sheik by now, timing each other out because no one would ever be able to land a hit on anyone with anything other than Needles. But that can't be farther from the truth. When you think about Ryu's weaknesses and what holds him back as a competitor, you think, "Oh, well he has a hard time catching someone who's keeping him out and running away from him." Well, you're not entirely wrong. But something I've learned over my time with playing Ryu, over my time with experiencing many different types of match-ups and playstyles, is this:

You can only run away for so long.

So long before you put yourself in a bad spot where you can no longer run. So long before you mess up. So long before you lose the lead. Make no mistake, it's going to happen. And it's going to happen more often than you'd like to think.

While not a DLC character, Greninja is worth mentioning for being another character with large regional differences in perception. The tier list puts him at #25, while Japan puts him at #32 and Europe puts him at #18. The latter continent has three notable Greninja mains in @istudying (the Netherlands), Elexiao (France) and Eddy (Germany). We asked iStudying, who is a 4BR member, to share some insights into Greninja's current situation.

Hey everyone, My name is iStudying. I am ranked second in Smash 4 in the Netherlands, right after Mr-R. I have been playing competitive Smash Bros. since Brawl (2008), where I mained Diddy Kong. When Smash 4 came out I immediately started maining Greninja, because he was different and his playing style fit me.

At the moment Greninja is ranked low Mid Tier (E), but I know that he is a much better character than that. I feel like people just haven’t seen enough Greninja players in action. As someone who played him since the beginning, I think some of his disadvantaged matchups are Sheik and Fox, but even those are 40:60 at worst.

Greninja has a notable flaw, which is that he has to commit with almost everything he does. However, he also has a lot of potential with great mobility, killing power, setups etc. By mastering him, you will not only notice the fun and flashiness of the character, but also reap the benefits this character has relative to other characters in the game.

Greninja is underrated and people should look into him more. I expect him to rise in the tier list and if you want to see what this character is capable of, look out for players like Some (Japan), Venia (America) and myself (Europe).

Splashing out.

Conclusion

We hope these explanations have shed some light on why the tier list was released when it was and provided food for thought on some of the more hotly debated characters. With (now) 58 characters on the roster and many of them still underexplored, or only dominant in certain regions, it will be interesting to see where people take their characters and how international clashes turn out. As always, we'll be looking forward to your thoughts in the comments below.

Thanks go out to @Shaya for providing data on votes per region and @Zigsta for various contributions and ideas.

 

I think vs is even. No has ever made me feel otherwise. I'm good at that matchup for reasons I can't figure out LOL.

That's why you rekt ZeRo.

 

That's why you rekt ZeRo.

I've beat other important ones too (Or at least switched them off their to another character).

 

I've beat other important ones too (Or at least switched them off their to another character).

I think Sanic and Sheik don't have a stable relationship. It probably goes back a long way. They are like rivals or something.

 

Why was Jigglypuff placed as low as she was? I feel like it's a fairly accurate placing myself, but I have no idea how well she was represented in the making of this list and I want to at least know that the voters for this list were as informed as they could possibly be.

As somebody who's used to hearing completely innacurate comments like " she has no combos" (I mean c'mon, guys, she has a 0-death), you can hopefully understand where I'm coming from here.

She is incredibly slow and frail, no kill options whatsoever. The only thing she has is her N-Air, and kinda her F-Air, and that isn't even that good. No one uses her, literally the only good Jigglypuff player is Hungrybox, and he dropped her for what I've seen.

 

If you pay attention to the players who main these characters they can do consistently well. The palu mains like Aerolink or TLTC nearly always finish in the top 8.

Your wall of text makes me laugh.
They don't place **** on majors, the ACTUAL important tourneys, not those small-ass comic shop size tournaments.

Dededesgusting is a must-see video series for aspiring Dedede mains.

A series that is supposed to make "x"character look great is just that, it's supposed to.

Samus especially, who wasn't really terrible to begin with and has received numerous buffs. It's good to see them noticing the Marth/Lucas/Mewtwo buffs, but please, give that same amount of care and attention to all of the characters. I realize you have less incentive to pay close attention to unpopular characters that most people have written off, but every character deserves the same amount of attention, even if there's more than 50 of them

The buffs are not going to help on the poor matchup spread and neutral.

 

She is incredibly slow and frail, no kill options whatsoever. The only thing she has is her N-Air, and kinda her F-Air, and that isn't even that good. No one uses her, literally the only good Jigglypuff player is Hungrybox, and he dropped her for what I've seen.

...Innacurate comments such as this.

Let me make this clear: Jigglypuff has poor kill options. She does not have zero kill options, and her most reliable ones are most certainly not Nair or Fair (the latter of which not being a kill option in any capacity outside of edgeguarding). Check out Utilt, Dash Attack, and most importantly, Bair. Also check out her myriad of Rest combos which, while killing within a strict percent window, most certainly exist and are deadly when properly applied.

Yes, she is frail, especially in a game with Rage mechanics. That's always been a part of her character, and while its a weakness of hers it's not what screwed her over this game. She is also somewhat slow, but "incredibly" is a blatant exaggeration when her aerial mobility is among the best in the game.

Also, Hungrybox isn't even particularly great at smash 4 Puff- last I checked, he was trying to play her like Melee Puff, which does not work. If you want to find good Puff players, check out Serynder, RDR7, BrianYDG, or TheReflexWonder (though the former don't get top-level results and the latter have also appeared to have dropped Puff... can't be sure about Brian, but he certainly hasn't been using her very often lately. You're right about her having poor representation at the very least).

If someone else responds to my post, I'd rather it be somebody who was a part of making this list. Preferably one whom I couldn't give much clearer and frankly better reasons for her being placed as she is.

 

I feel like this list is quite accurate when it comes to the results, now if only some of the characters in the low tiers had more representation by top players they could be showing the potential they already have hidden within them to be borderline middle tier material.

Same thing applies to some of the characters in bottom tier as well, they could be low tier one day or maybe more.

When Bayonetta is fully recognized, she will be high tier and maybe Corrin too but he's looking upper mid at best.

 

...Innacurate comments such as this.

Let me make this clear: Jigglypuff has poor kill options. She does not have zero kill options, and her most reliable ones are most certainly not Nair or Fair (the latter of which not being a kill option in any capacity outside of edgeguarding). Check out Utilt, Dash Attack, and most importantly, Bair. Also check out her myriad of Rest combos which, while killing within a strict percent window, most certainly exist and are deadly when properly applied.

Yes, she is frail, especially in a game with Rage mechanics. That's always been a part of her character, and while its a weakness of hers it's not what screwed her over this game. She is also somewhat slow, but "incredibly" is a blatant exaggeration when her aerial mobility is among the best in the game.

Also, Hungrybox isn't even particularly great at smash 4 Puff- last I checked, he was trying to play her like Melee Puff, which does not work. If you want to find good Puff players, check out Serynder, RDR7, BrianYDG, or TheReflexWonder (though the former don't get top-level results and the latter have also appeared to have dropped Puff... can't be sure about Brian, but he certainly hasn't been using her very often lately. You're right about her having poor representation at the very least).

If someone else responds to my post, I'd rather it be somebody who was a part of making this list. Preferably one whom I couldn't give much clearer and frankly better reasons for her being placed as she is.

I feel like Puff, Dx3, and Ganon could one day pull out of the bottom tier given enough exposure. Maybe Charizard too, if we include customs.

 

BTW Maraphy when you're talking about the new tech that gets rid of landing lag on Shulk's aerials... are you talking about MALLC? Cus that was known pretty much since the start of Smash 4 =/

oh woops, the person who told me about it made it seem like it was new.

JUST SHOWS HOW EASY IT IS TO BE UNINFORMED ABOUT A CHARACTER WHEN THERE ARE >50 OF THEM.

They don't place **** on majors, the ACTUAL important tourneys, not those small-*** comic shop size tournaments.

APEX 2015
9. AeroLink (Diddy Kong, Palutena)

he was 9th not 8th, my b

 

Probably about a year before Smash 5 is released provided the Smash 4 community moves on to it. Tier lists generally keep getting updated as long as the game is still alive.

... 1 year before Smash 5? Thats like saying the next tier list will be released in like 4-6 years...

 

Literally all of my past mains are on here. Lucas, Mewtwo, and Greninja. Maybe after reading this I finally pick Lucas?

 

... 1 year before Smash 5? Thats like saying the next tier list will be released in like 4-6 years...

Final version, not next version.

 

There is one thing that I would like to have an explanation for.....

Why is Yoshi placed higher than Ike, DK, Peach, the Pits, and R.O.B when the dino has literally nothing to back it up like the characters I've mentioned do? It just baffles me.

 

Pfft, are you serious? Fox in Melee goes even with both Falco and Marth in general, and on certain stages actually loses to them. Sheik in Smash 4 does not lose to any character on any stage, and I'm honestly struggling to even think of a character she goes even with (and don't say Lucario or Kirby, it's not true). The closest I can think of would be against Pikachu on Lylat, and even then I don't think Sheik actually loses.

You're not multishining enough if you actually think Fox loses to any character on any stage in Melee. The only argument to really be made is for Fox Marth on FD, and that seems to be more the M2K effect than Marth actually winning there.

Worth noting: Trela has apparently said he thinks Ryu beats Sheik. Also, Sheik has multiple losing MUs with customs legal, but the current meta doesn't allow them so I guess it is besides the point.

I personally hold that Pikachu Sheik is even, and that Kirby Sheik has steadily been moving closer to even (he has a real kill throw, and Sheik has to approach whenever she doesn't have the lead...). Kirby has some bizarrely good (if not winning) high and top tier MUs for him to be as low as he is tbh (Sheik ZSS Fox Falcon, Pika is fine if not great and Ryu might be even as well?)

 

unban customs and a lot of everyone's problems would be fixed

 

I think Diddy is a much more reliable Sheik counterpick than both Pikachu and Kirby.

 

I think its cute how we're pretending a couple other characters are on par with shiek.

 

Is nobody going to bring up how is 24th according to Japan's votes, yet 43rd according to America and Europe's votes?

Japan has a top Duck Hunt player Brood and some other people with Duck Hunt secondaries because of that. America has a Diddy main who complains about how much Duck Hunt sucks. I think it's somewhere in between, but a zoner with decent frame data and mobility is not to be slept on. Might do better in Japan's meta because not everyone picks top tiers which means that characters with crippling top tier MUs have a better chance at succeeding.

... 1 year before Smash 5? Thats like saying the next tier list will be released in like 4-6 years...

No I was saying the last tier list will be released in 4-6 years.

Kirby Sheik has steadily been moving closer to even (he has a real kill throw, and Sheik has to approach whenever she doesn't have the lead...).

It makes me laugh when people say Kirby Sheik is even. Just because Kirby can duck under needles doesn't mean Sheik can't camp him out or use her approach game which is perfectly fine. Although I agree that Kirby is slept on, being able to crouch doesn't mean he does well that can outcamp him and simply beat him in neutral. If you look at any top wii fit, who has the lowest crouch, they don't just crouch and wait for Sheik. Kirby does not have a good Sheik match up, and I hope that myth is dispelled soon.

 

You're not multishining enough if you actually think Fox loses to any character on any stage in Melee. The only argument to really be made is for Fox Marth on FD, and that seems to be more the M2K effect than Marth actually winning there

It's not too hard to imagine Marth has the advantage on FD in theory. Fox already has enough trouble with his disjoint to make it an overall 50:50, and of course FD opens up the avenue for those ridiculous chaingrabs.

I can't really comment on how it goes in practice, though, since I don't follow the competitive scene that closely. I also don't know of any other stage-specific matchups that could give Fox trouble ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Japan has a top Duck Hunt player Brood and some other people with Duck Hunt secondaries because of that. America has a Diddy main who complains about how much Duck Hunt sucks. I think it's somewhere in between, but a zoner with decent frame data and mobility is not to be slept on. Might do better in Japan's meta because not everyone picks top tiers which means that characters with crippling top tier MUs have a better chance at succeeding.


No I was saying the last tier list will be released in 4-6 years.


It makes me laugh when people say Kirby Sheik is even. Just because Kirby can duck under needles doesn't mean Sheik can't camp him out or use her approach game which is perfectly fine. Although I agree that Kirby is slept on, being able to crouch doesn't mean he does well that can outcamp him and simply beat him in neutral. If you look at any top wii fit, who has the lowest crouch, they don't just crouch and wait for Sheik. Kirby does not have a good Sheik match up, and I hope that myth is dispelled soon.

Kirby can take Sheik from 0-45ish, higher if she loses her double jump anywhere in the middle (utilts to about 30, SH uair, a few more utilts, usmash her if she loses her jump to put her at 60). He has an incredible pummel and two high damage throws, one of which KOs, as well as a combo throw that works for quite a while. His dair is a 50-50 on landing with dsmash or grab at dsmash KO percents (if you don't hold down and shield, dsmash is guaranteed, but if you do, it's a free grab), and it converts to jab or utilt at lower percents. His bair has the range to contest her fair, and that trade is favorable. If he ever gets her needles, he flatly outcamps her, and a correctly positioned dair should always two-frame her up+B [it has a single frame gap between hits], which will spike her and allow for another dair or a footstool [and while she can try to up+b past ledge, it's a 50-50 - if Kirby feints the offstage dair and lands onstage, he gets a free fsmash, which will kill early].

It's not favorable, but Kirby has always had a variety of tools in the MU, and it keeps getting better and better with the buffs that have been coming in. I'm fairly certain Wii Fit can't reliably do 30% to Sheik every time an approach is misspaced, but Kirby's tilts and grab game can do just that. It's certainly a lot better a mathcup than the Sheik MUs that many characters above him have, which is why [in conjunction with his solid ZSS MU], I'm somewhat puzzled by his low placement.

It's not too hard to imagine Marth has the advantage on FD in theory. Fox already has enough trouble with his disjoint to make it an overall 50:50, and of course FD opens up the avenue for those ridiculous chaingrabs.

I can't really comment on how it goes in practice, though, since I don't follow the competitive scene that closely. I also don't know of any other stage-specific matchups that could give Fox trouble ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Marth can't land very safely against Fox on FD, so unless Marth has the zero to death chaingrabs [which have numerous nuances that make them incredibly difficult to do], Fox has the superior punish game on FD. Further, the lack of platforms probably benefits Fox more than Marth outside the zero to death punish game, since Marth often excels at trapping a landing Fox on platforms, but they serve as a way for him to get back down from being put him above Fox [and Marth being on a platform against Fox is less bad than Fox being on a platform above Marth, so their removal benefits Fox in that sense too].

The chaingrab does a great deal to even things up if someone is extremely consistent at it, but grabbing Fox is no easy task, and one mistake means Marth needs another grab from neutral just to attempt to start the chaingrab back up.

It *might* be even or favor Marth if they can CG correctly, but it's probably a Fox stage otherwise. And there is a reason you only hear about a handful of solo Marth mains doing zero-deaths with any consistency - executing the CG is no easy task.

 

I think its cute how we're pretending a couple other characters are on par with shiek.

who is "we?" Nobody is saying anybody is on par with sheik, we are saying some go even with her.

Being the best character doesn't mean you literally beat everyone below, you just have the best MU spread.

 

Kirby can take Sheik from 0-45ish, higher if she loses her double jump anywhere in the middle (utilts to about 30, SH uair, a few more utilts, usmash her if she loses her jump to put her at 60). He has an incredible pummel and two high damage throws, one of which KOs, as well as a combo throw that works for quite a while. His dair is a 50-50 on landing with dsmash or grab at dsmash KO percents (if you don't hold down and shield, dsmash is guaranteed, but if you do, it's a free grab), and it converts to jab or utilt at lower percents. His bair has the range to contest her fair, and that trade is favorable. If he ever gets her needles, he flatly outcamps her, and a correctly positioned dair should always two-frame her up+B [it has a single frame gap between hits], which will spike her and allow for another dair or a footstool [and while she can try to up+b past ledge, it's a 50-50 - if Kirby feints the offstage dair and lands onstage, he gets a free fsmash, which will kill early].

It's not favorable, but Kirby has always had a variety of tools in the MU, and it keeps getting better and better with the buffs that have been coming in. I'm fairly certain Wii Fit can't reliably do 30% to Sheik every time an approach is misspaced, but Kirby's tilts and grab game can do just that. It's certainly a lot better a mathcup than the Sheik MUs that many characters above him have, which is why [in conjunction with his solid ZSS MU], I'm somewhat puzzled by his low placement.



Marth can't land very safely against Fox on FD, so unless Marth has the zero to death chaingrabs [which have numerous nuances that make them incredibly difficult to do], Fox has the superior punish game on FD. Further, the lack of platforms probably benefits Fox more than Marth outside the zero to death punish game, since Marth often excels at trapping a landing Fox on platforms, but they serve as a way for him to get back down from being put him above Fox [and Marth being on a platform against Fox is less bad than Fox being on a platform above Marth, so their removal benefits Fox in that sense too].

The chaingrab does a great deal to even things up if someone is extremely consistent at it, but grabbing Fox is no easy task, and one mistake means Marth needs another grab from neutral just to attempt to start the chaingrab back up.

It *might* be even or favor Marth if they can CG correctly, but it's probably a Fox stage otherwise. And there is a reason you only hear about a handful of solo Marth mains doing zero-deaths with any consistency - executing the CG is no easy task.

I feel like Kirby should definitely be in E tier considering his MU spread with the high/top tiers. Hopefully, as the list gets refined, they will change his placement.

 

Kirby can take Sheik from 0-45ish, higher if she loses her double jump anywhere in the middle (utilts to about 30, SH uair, a few more utilts, usmash her if she loses her jump to put her at 60). He has an incredible pummel and two high damage throws, one of which KOs, as well as a combo throw that works for quite a while. His dair is a 50-50 on landing with dsmash or grab at dsmash KO percents (if you don't hold down and shield, dsmash is guaranteed, but if you do, it's a free grab), and it converts to jab or utilt at lower percents. His bair has the range to contest her fair, and that trade is favorable. If he ever gets her needles, he flatly outcamps her, and a correctly positioned dair should always two-frame her up+B [it has a single frame gap between hits], which will spike her and allow for another dair or a footstool [and while she can try to up+b past ledge, it's a 50-50 - if Kirby feints the offstage dair and lands onstage, he gets a free fsmash, which will kill early].

It's not favorable, but Kirby has always had a variety of tools in the MU, and it keeps getting better and better with the buffs that have been coming in. I'm fairly certain Wii Fit can't reliably do 30% to Sheik every time an approach is misspaced, but Kirby's tilts and grab game can do just that. It's certainly a lot better a mathcup than the Sheik MUs that many characters above him have, which is why [in conjunction with his solid ZSS MU], I'm somewhat puzzled by his low placement.

Fthrow doesn't work for quite a while, after early percents DI hurts the viability of that combo throw. His bair might have range on the level of Sheik fair, but in terms of his frame data his aerials are not on par with Sheik's by any means. This is part of what makes Kirby's approach slow and obvious. Sheik's mobility is much better than Kirby's as well. Dair isn't very reliable due to its high startup and Kirby's terrible air mobility. His neutral b is not a reliable move to land and cannot be counted on at all. Kirby might have a strong punish-reliant combo game but that does not make up for Sheik's ability to force him to approach and easily rack up combos on par with his own. Maybe Kirby's matchup isn't better than those near him on the list but it certainly isn't better than that of most top tiers.

Still, I too believe Kirby should be in E tier, granted it would be the lower half.

 

who is "we?" Nobody is saying anybody is on par with sheik, we are saying some go even with her.

Sounds like you already know.

Being the best character doesn't mean you literally beat everyone below, you just have the best MU spread.

You've missed the point entirely. I'm saying shiek is a cut above everyone by enough that she should have her own category. I understand what her current placing means i'm not confused by that i'm saying I disagree. It wouldn't be the first time we've seen the best character in a smash title carve out their own category on the tier list - 64 pika, melee fox, and brawl MK are all examples of this.

 

Sounds like you already know.




You've missed the point entirely. I'm saying shiek is a cut above everyone by enough that she should have her own category. I understand what her current placing means i'm not confused by that i'm saying I disagree. It wouldn't be the first time we've seen the best character in a smash title carve out their own category on the tier list - 64 pika, melee fox, and brawl MK are all examples of this.

Personally, I think ZSS and Sheik are pretty much just as good as each other. Before the patch ZSS might have even been better.

 

Roy should be lower. Everyone under him has accomplished more

 

Fthrow doesn't work for quite a while, after early percents DI hurts the viability of that combo throw. His bair might have range on the level of Sheik fair, but in terms of his frame data his aerials are not on par with Sheik's by any means. This is part of what makes Kirby's approach slow and obvious. Sheik's mobility is much better than Kirby's as well. Dair isn't very reliable due to its high startup and Kirby's terrible air mobility. His neutral b is not a reliable move to land and cannot be counted on at all. Kirby might have a strong punish-reliant combo game but that does not make up for Sheik's ability to force him to approach and easily rack up combos on par with his own. Maybe Kirby's matchup isn't better than those near him on the list but it certainly isn't better than that of most top tiers.

Still, I too believe Kirby should be in E tier, granted it would be the lower half.

Fthrow works at low percents, but dthrow at mid percents [or bthrow] does high damage and gives Kirby a favorable position.

Yes his aerials are slower but I'm not saying he beats Sheik or is even, just that the MU would seem a lot more fair than most of Sheik's MUs with characters near where he is.

Dair is a pretty solid move as Kirby for landing if she's ever trying to shield to punish a landing [cross her up], and if she's not, Kirby's nair is also a great tool to get down [it's pretty safe on shield with only minor startup]. Dair also can be workable for coming down from platforms. It's not like Kirby can just dair with impunity, but when he lands one, it puts Sheik in a rough spot. [It also of course destroys spotdodges - run up at her and SH dair when she's expecting a grab and you'll get it, like a poor man's MK].

You can land neutral B from a dtilt trip as far as I know. And his dtilt is an extremely good move in close quarters.

Sheik can only force an approach when she has the lead... if she is ever behind, Kirby doesn't have to do anything since he can duck her needles and her grab. While Sheik does have solid moves for approaching, ducking makes powershielding those moves much easier, and with his potent grab game, he can convert a powershielded fair into 10% or more and good stage position [or an early-ish KO chance with powershield dtilt - if it trips, that's an fsmash].

And again, you seem to be trying to peg me as claiming Sheik Kirby is even. I never said that, only that it has steadily been getting closer and closer. And he would certainly seem to have a better Sheik, Fox, and ZSS MU than Donkey Kong or Bowser, yet he is placed below both of them, and those are two of the most important characters in the game to do well against.

 

Roy should be lower. Everyone under him has accomplished more

But he's my boy.

 

I know Ganon is low tier, but bottom three...?

 

I like this tier list...it's well done. Idk why people are so upset about the whole j tier thing. More characters equals a more diverse tier list. Besides..with the new j tier..it makes the list more accurate. People need to stop complaining.

 

I don't like this list solely for the fact that My main is F tier. F tier sounds like failure. I'd play more Pacman but E tier sounds even worse!
Tbh I feel like this was overly stratified. I'm 95% sure Ness isn't so much better then Falcon to justify a full tier separation there. I'm thinking pluses and minuses starting at B tier or so would help.

 

It's insulting how my character is in mid tier on D , when he is actually a really good character. He is only ripped on because people hate gyro setups and his Uair

 

It's insulting how my character is in mid tier on D , when he is actually a really good character. He is only ripped on because people hate gyro setups and his Uair

I can see him going up above the Pits but no more. Luigi still has a too-good neutral.

 

I can see him going up above the Pits but no more. Luigi still has a too-good neutral.

Idk I can see him going higher, ROB has the best neutral game in sm4sh, and it goes unpunishable a lot

 

Idk I can see him going higher, ROB has the best neutral game in sm4sh, and it goes unpunishable a lot

His neutral game is probably top tier. Not the best though(Needles).
Let's point out what's holding him back, other then the obvious inferiority in major tourney results to the characters above him.
-He's big and easy to combo, combined with a somewhat vulnerable recovery makes his punishes large and his disadvantage state horrible. Probably his biggest weakness.
--As an extension, top tiers with good punish games give him hell
-Beep boop is not quite as effective if they DI correctly
-Stolen Gyro can make his neutral pretty bad depending on the MU.
-Gyro setups are really, really good but being able to do them isn't too common and it's still a mixup that can be avoided if the opponent chooses the right option.

Luigi does way better against the most common/top characters then R.O.B. in comparison. R.O.B. has some dirty, grimy stuff but he just has some really bad MUs in the upper echelons that end up taking him out of tourneys.

 

Surprising to see Dr.Mario is lower than Little Mac.