Official 3.5 Bowser changes thread.

[Anonistry]

Ya I am very excited about the changes too.

But I just don't get why we have to, once again, re-learn fortress hogging.

They never gave a good reason last time, and I would like to know they would explain it this time. Because I don't get what making Bowser's sd for a little while accomplishes.

You know, Giga Bowser first came about from Bowser falling off the stage...

Giga Bowser confirmed for next Bowser buff.

 

[Mr. Bones]

I want to play in All-Star mode in tournaments so that I can use Bowser with flesh on my first stock and then go to Bones for the remaining 3 if someone can take my first one. >_>

...Yeah. <3

 

[Abeebo]

FYI Fortress is reversible now. This means that if you Fortress towards the ledge, you probably turned towards it and are dealing with the worse reverse grab window. It's probably safer to make sure your fortress is pointed towards the stage before you start moving.

It reverses on the ground? Did it not reverse in the air before?

 

[Abeebo]

Oh by the way, if you have too much trouble Fortress Hogging or whatever, just practice your wavedash to ledgegrab because your wavedashes are more effective now.

 

[deadjames]

You might just be bad at Bowser.

At least this version.

I mean I won all the matches I used him in. I'm definitely the best Bowser in MO, maybe second best in the Midwest, I don't know of any other good ones besides Kirk.

 

[Jacob29]

I can Hog facing the middle of stage fine.

But it's just hitting it while facing off the stage that is being god damn near impossible.

 

[Yoki]

It's reversible now, just make it so you're always facing the stage.

 

[Jacob29]

Ya sure there are ways around it.. but why?

Just adding complicatedness for no real reason.

I will live with it sure, but seems like a similar situation as last time.

 

[Xanthyr]

You need to start the fall at around the middle of the animation, the longer you wait, the harder it'll be to grab due to the momentum and gravity changes.

 

[Mr. Bones]

I mean I won all the matches I used him in. I'm definitely the best Bowser in MO, maybe second best in the Midwest, I don't know of any other good ones besides Kirk.

=p But I'm the best Bowser.

No worries though, I'm putting in work and putting an end to my tournament hiatus so that I can prove it.

 

[Abeebo]

Ya sure there are ways around it.. but why?

So Bowser can be less polarizing and exploit his new mobility. Yea, Fortress Hogging is really useful and whatnot. Maybe it was one of those moves that needed sanding down, which really wasn't much sanding when you consider what we got to keep. I dunno man... Did so much of your game suffer just because FH from afar in one direction is much less forgiving? Like, you still have all that armor on top of phenomenal edgeguarding ability, plus working onstage just got smoother.

 

[Crulex Crystallite]

So Bowser can be less polarizing and exploit his new mobility. Yea, Fortress Hogging is really useful and whatnot. Maybe it was one of those moves that needed sanding down, which really wasn't much sanding when you consider what we got to keep. I dunno man... Did so much of your game suffer just because FH from afar in one direction is much less forgiving? Like, you still have all that armor on top of phenomenal edgeguarding ability, plus working onstage just got smoother.

Honestly glad they decided to take some power from up+b and put it elsewhere. It's still strong, and FHing in actuality takes more setup time/precautions, but it's better overall. Bowser is more threatening now than he's ever been, especially with the dash attack, dair, and dsmash improvements. I feel like performing an attack doesn't auto-give the opponent an advantage.

 

[Mr. Bones]

He can 0-death spacies and similar fast fallers with Up-throw+Side-B chain grabs now. Just gotta read that DI and they are done. I wasn't much of a fan of him being compared to grappling archetypes, but this coupled with his other vicious blows feels pretty good. <3 Basically bash their heads in with his skull and grind them up with up throw before Fairing them in half, making swiss cheese with Bair, or sending them to the ****ing moon with Uair.

I can work with this. Anyone that's too floaty to be chain grabbed can just get launched the old fashioned way.

 

[Jacob29]

Except they didn't take any power from it really.

They just made it a stupid sd prone special.

What happens if Falco gets the wrong part of his dair? ah it isnt a spike

what happens if Bowser gets the wrong part of his up-b? ah he loses a stock...

 

[PootisKonga]

May I ask if anyone knows a good way to FH consistently? Putting the stick in neutral as I fall off doesn't seem to work, so what I basically end up doing the same thing as 3.02 but I move the control stick towards the ledge as I fall off rather than just before. Even then that only works about 60% of the time...

 

[Frost | Odds]

I don't know if Bowser is OP now, but it suuuuuuure feels like it. If there's a national in the near future, I'll probably have to travel.

 

[Jacob29]

If you are looking towards the middle of the stage, and have your back to the ledge you can slam your stick towards it as you fall off.

No idea facing the ledge though. Guess b-reverse it.

 

[Crulex Crystallite]

Even if there isn't a confirmed way to not SD with FH, I'll still take 3.5 bowser over 3.02. He feels so crisp onstage.

 

[Jacob29]

Ah yeah any day.

 

[Abeebo]

The new Fortress feels like its entirely based on the degree of travel of your analog stick as its quite precise, as opposed to 3.0 where it was more momentum based. Now you really have to pay attention to where and how far you're pulling the control stick, instead of just sliding around and letting go when you're close enough.

 

[Paquito]

I barely played for 1 minute and I'm already just beside myself with disappointment.

Bowser Changelist

Specials
--No longer cancels into normal gravity after sliding off the ground, and uses the air Up-B physics.

Is this working for anyone else? When I tried Up B off a platform, I expected to arc a bit like you do in air Up-B, but I just fell down like usual.

 

[Abeebo]

It doesn't arc because it's still a grounded UpB. The note is saying that you don't fall at different speeds depending on if you're on the ground or air anymore. They both fall at the same floaty speed as an aerial UpB now.

 

[WinterShorts]

Does Bowser's awesome new victory theme count as a 3.5 change to him? XD

Despite the fact that I can't get video footage of it....

 

[JaimeHR]

For anyone still having problems to "fast" Fortress Hog or just Fortress Hogging in general here's a little idea: Try to hold the stick Up/Down-left or Up/Down-right after you use Up-B, this way you'll make Fortress travel slower, then as soon as Bowser is off stage let go the stick and he should grab the edge.

I suggest that you make sure Bowser is always facing towards the stage while trying to Foretress Hog, Jacob29's Video pretty much sums it up why.

 

[TTTTTsd]

HEY, fellow Bowsers! This hasn't been talked about here so I'll mention it.

I was wavelanding and practicing doing it into Dtilt and Ftilt when something happened. If you do the first step of Bowser's walk right after you waveland...some of the momentum actually carries over, and he steps faster! Just lets you squeeze out a bit of extra distance. Me likey.

 

[Frost | Odds]

New Dsmash is probably Bowser's best finishing move now, against floaties anyway. If you're edgeguarding Pikachu/Mewto or someone else that tends to recover high, you can just sit on the ledge, dsmash, wait for them to get sucked in and spit out off the top.

 

[cmart]

FYI Fortress is reversible now. This means that if you Fortress towards the ledge, you probably turned towards it and are dealing with the worse reverse grab window. It's probably safer to make sure your fortress is pointed towards the stage before you start moving.

So yeah. It did act like this in a previous dev version but it looks like Magus changed it on me and grounded Fortress is no longer reversible. Sorry for the misinformation.

Used Bowser in tourney yesterday for the first time in like a year, I think he's still trash, I'm really salty that he didn't get his fireball that he had in the dev build I got to play.

There were a lot of experimental Bowser builds tried out for 3.5. In the end we decided that with the overall meta getting less crazy it would be safer to field a more conservative set of changes for 3.5. I'll admit I've gotten pretty salty about Bowser's design in the past, but I honestly think he's in a pretty good place right now.

 

[Abeebo]

Redone dash attack allows for two frames of medium armor to boost grab. Super minimal, but it could be enough to squash a projectile when dash grabbing. Of course, this also means you can come in with a DACUS and HOLY CRAP you'd have so much armor coursing around you (if charging usmash), which should make Bowser Usmash unstoppable by any aerial attack. I'm still trippin on frame 1 medium armor. Cray.
I had a feeling the reversible upb wasn't true.
I'd argue that jab1 to utilt can be safer in different situations, is faster, and utilt may kill floaties earlier. Definitely Dsmash at ledge though.
Edit: all the things.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Is Bowser's DACUS just really short or am I timing it wrong? Lol. I feel like I'm timing it like other characters' DACUS.

 

[Abeebo]

Its really short. Not sure if its discernible from Usmash out of dash. If you turn on hitbubbles via debug mode you can see the two frames of medium armor come out.

 

[Frost | Odds]

There were a lot of experimental Bowser builds tried out for 3.5. In the end we decided that with the overall meta getting less crazy it would be safer to field a more conservative set of changes for 3.5. I'll admit I've gotten pretty salty about Bowser's design in the past, but I honestly think he's in a pretty good place right now.

He definitely feels a lot more reasonable to play as, and against. Thanks so much for all your hard work.

It seems like the ROB matchup is actually sort of winnable now, which is cool. Even Ivysaur is doable after the tether and dash attack changes -- the jumpsquat is a huge help too.

Are you allowed to share anything about the crazy stuff that was scrapped? If, after the metagame develops, Bowser turns out to still be too polarizing, too good, or too bad, is there any chance of some of the more loony changes making it in?

 

[cmart]

@ Frost | Odds I wouldn't want to muddle the waters by talking about scrapped content. I already see a lot of excitement and enthusiasm for 3.5 Bowser, and I wouldn't want to detract from that.

 

[Jacob29]

That removal of reversable up-b is pretty dissapointing.

Seeing how absolutely TERRIBLE he is at grabbing the ledge from reverse I will just remove it entirely from play.

I have had better luck practicing pivot F-smash on Marth than this..

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ cmart An excellent point. Please ignore my rambling if it's not constructive.

I'm glad you seem to be around/interacting with the boards more. Can I ask for your thoughts on Bowser's smashes?

The following are not complaints. Hell, I'm probably personally responsible for about 3/4 of the total global enthusiasm for 3.5 Bowser, and could hardly be happier. Just got questions is all.

I'm loving the new dsmash - though it seems to basically obsolete the usmash. Though I've only played a few hours of 3.5 so far (against others, anyway. quite a few more in the lab), I haven't found a single occasion where usmash was a reasonable/the best option. In my limited experience so far, it seems like the same purpose is better served by dsmash, utilt, or an aerial. I'm sure there's some niche use for it, just haven't found it yet. What is the intention for this move? When should I be using it?

I'm also curious about the fsmash, which hasn't been changed at all. Is fsmash being kept the way it is for the sake of more casual players, or perhaps in fear of giving Bowser too much kill power? On the very rare occasions that I find myself using this, I almost always regret it as I get clipped by a lingering hitbox during the leanback, or the move simply gets panic-shielded at the last moment. Dsmash (and sometimes bair) seems to do everything this theoretically does (cover spotdodges, break shields, punish sloppy ledge play), but better.

Am I wrong for thinking fsmash is completely useless/redundant? Or is the current philosophy simply that the move is bad, and that's totally okay?

Again, none of this is criticisms or complaints or anything. I'm just trying to capitalize on your attention while it seems I have it. I don't really have any intention of playing another character in tournament ever again, regardless :D

I also plan on putting together the rest of an extensive series of videos on how to play Bowser -- if there's something that's perhaps slipped our attention about Bowser's new tools, I'd love to know.

 

[Magus420]

Reversible ground up-b would make you face towards the edge when you already had your back to it, reducing the distance you can FH when facing either direction, unless you waited a bit before moving. The reduced range to FH while facing the edge comes from it going into special fall much earlier in the animation btw (which doesn't reverse grab), though that also allows FFing around the peak of up-b when used in the air, as special fall is FFable.

The distance you can FH while facing the edge is just about the same as a shield roll's distance from the edge if you use the smash back method. It's less flexible than facing the other direction, but definitely still worth using once comfortable with the smash back FH method's timing.

Edit: Oh, and the reason FH timing unfortunately needed to change yet again at least in some way (even without the ground mobility and special fall changes), is due to ledge mechanics being overhauled completely in 3.5. The way ledge boxes offset and stretch is swapped, from Brawl's fixed horizontal range and variable vertical range based on the animation, to Melee's fixed vertical range and variable horizontal range based on the animation. Reverse ledge box sizes are also fixed to mirror the range in front. Those things, and with it everyone's ledge boxes needing to be redesigned to work with the new mechanics in place had effects on FHing as well as other character's things like Lucario's up-b from on stage, CF/Ganon grounded side-b ledgegrab, etc not grabbing edges the same way.

 

[cmart]

@ Frost | Odds Upsmash still has some niché uses. It reachs higher than his other options with a bit of armor, letting you beat out aerial approaches more safely than timing an uptilt. It also has the second hit, which can situationally lead into other silly follow ups... like forward smash lol. I'll agree that it's not that useful overall though. As for forward smash itself, it's pretty much a part of Bowser's identity at this point. I don't think it'd be possible to change it's properties enough to make it a useful tool without significantly distancing it from what makes it "Bowser" if that makes sense.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ cmart That's pretty much what I'd figured, thanks! At the risk of sounding crass for requesting more immediately after Bowser got more love than I'd ever thought would actually happen, I will float the suggestion of allowing the fsmash in question to instantly break shields. It certainly visually looks like it should do so, and such a change would certainly fit with Bowser's identity, and it's not as though shielding is the only counterplay currently available.

With that said, I'll stop bothering you for now. Thanks again for your time. ^^

 

[Xanthyr]

You should keep bothering him for as long as he's willing to offer. He's just another bro who has his finger on the pulse of Bowser. I respect him, but we shouldn't revere him, we all have something we can teach eachother, even a DT.

I think instant break on shield is too much personally, I find myself landing it on power ranked players fairly often. Not always the best option, but you can always make room for it in certain punishes, like throw falco off stage, dash backward pivot fsmash or run forward and CC Fsmash alone has punished a lot, but that's more of a read than confirm like most of other Bowser's kit already is.

Speaking of wavelanding and cool things, something I've been messing around with on stages like Battlefield is ftilt or f/bthrow off the ledge, jump waveland off the platform and immediately Dair off-stage. It's not always the best, but it is something that looks purdy and has the chance to get stocks. I've also done fullhop fair waveland into fsmash. People are still getting used to Bowser, so things like this will be harder to do later on.

 

[Xanthyr]

I'm bad and should feel bad double post

 

[Frost | Odds]

You should keep bothering him for as long as he's willing to offer. He's just another bro who has his finger on the pulse of Bowser. I respect him, but we shouldn't revere him, we all have something we can teach eachother, even a DT.

Of course. I just prefer to stay positive, and make clear that I'm not being a completely ungrateful/entitled jackass.

I think instant break on shield is too much personally, I find myself landing it on power ranked players fairly often. Not always the best option, but you can always make room for it in certain punishes, like throw falco off stage, dash backward pivot fsmash or run forward and CC Fsmash alone has punished a lot, but that's more of a read than confirm like most of other Bowser's kit already is.

It might seem like a bit much, until you note exactly how much counterplay is available.

- Any hitbox in the game that comes out faster than 34 frames (when the armor begins)
- Any grab or command grab in the game
- Spotdodge
- Roll (hell, most characters can roll behind Bowser and punish)
- Pretty much any horizontal movement
- Jumping

Obviously, those won't all be available to an opponent when Bowser is throwing this move out -- but currently there's just no reason to ever use it over ftilt/fair/dtilt/bair/prettymuchanyothermove. I'm not too torn up about it either way (and tbh, probably would almost never fsmash intentionally regardless), but I don't think it's reasonable for a move with this much windup to be instantly negated by a shield that comes up in one frame, on top of all the other options that need to be somehow covered.

It might be too much for 3.5 Bowser - we'll see how the current meta plays out. Just seems like an interesting thing to keep in mind going forward. ^^

Speaking of wavelanding and cool things, something I've been messing around with on stages like Battlefield is ftilt or f/bthrow off the ledge, jump waveland off the platform and immediately Dair off-stage. It's not always the best, but it is something that looks purdy and has the chance to get stocks. I've also done fullhop fair waveland into fsmash. People are still getting used to Bowser, so things like this will be harder to do later on.

The dair trick is a lot of fun, especially against characters with poor vertical recoveries - the magnet effect on the dair is no goddamned joke.

A map specific trick: try short hop perfect wavelanding across the platforms on FoD when they're at the shortest height. It's really easy to do that into an edge cancelled nair/fair/bair into more ledge shenanigans. Edge cancelled dair into another aerial (or ledge attack, if you're facing the stage) is probably a combo in some MUs and positions.