Candypants
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2014
- Messages
- 51
He seems a lot faster and his jump squat seems a lot shorter.
Anyone else found anything yet?
Anyone else found anything yet?
-
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Official 3.5 Bowser changes thread.
- Thread starter Candypants
- Start date
Xanthyr
Smash Journeyman
I barely played for 1 minute and I'm already just beside myself with disappointment.
Bowser Changelist
Tilts
-Forward Tilt
--Upward angle animation tweaked.
--Now follows the standard +1/-1 damage progression for angles. Progression is 15/14/13 hi/med/lo
-Down Tilt
--Down Tilt1 hitboxes reduced and cleaned up.
--Down Tilt1 damage homogenized to 13 from 12/13 depending on hitbox. Trajectory angle on sweetspot lowered from 55 to 45. BKB reduced to 15 from 48. KBG increased from 78/90 to 100.
--Down Tilt2 hitboxes reduced and reorderd to match Down Tilt1.
--Down Tilt2 damage homogenized to 12. Trajectory angle on sourspot raised from 45 to 55.
--Hitlag on both hits homogenized to 1.0x.
Smashes
-Up Smash
--Initial hit stats matched to Melee Bowser. Damage 22/14 -> 20/17. Trajectory Angle 90/70 -> 90. BKB increased to 40 from 23. KBG changed from 85/90 -> 86 on both hitboxes.
--Second hit damage increased to 12 from 10. Angle changed from 270 to 280. BKB lowered from 60 to 54. KBG lowered from 100 to 85.
-Down Smash
--Hitboxes now move with Bowser's lateral movement instead of staying fixed while he advances forward.
--Linking hit damage reduced from 3 to 2.
--Final Hit knockback matched to Melee Bowser. BKB 55 -> 40, KBG 100 -> 140.
Aerials
-Down Air hitlag & SDI multipliers normalized to 1.0x.
Specials
-Neutral Special (Firebreath)
--Hitlag multiplier normalized to 1.0x from 1.1x.
-Forward Special (Koopa Klaw)
--Aerial animation improved & shifted down to match fall.
-Up Special (Whirling Fortress)
--Grounded mobility reduced from a variable ability to a static one. Can now halt all momentum immediately by releasing the control stick.
--No longer cancels into normal gravity after sliding off the ground, and uses the air Up-B physics.
--Air animation shortened to 50 frames from 80. Animation shifted down.
--Removed stray unsynced hitbox.
-Down Special (Bowser Bomb)
--Armor homogenized to always Heavy instead of sometimes Medium and sometimes Heavy.
--Landing hitbox hitlag normalized to 1.0x.
Others
-Ledgegrab range adjusted.
-Airdodge animation adjusted to allow horizontal wavelands.
-Jump Squat decreased from 8 to 6 frames.
-Over 100 getup attack startup reduced by about 18 frames.
-Dash Attack
--Armor on frame 1-9 increased from light to medium armor.
--Dash attack now moves about 10% further
--Dash attack strongest hitboxes are now unclankable.
--Removed second hit.
Bowser's up-B was his best move, it gave offense, defense, mobility, and you could do tons of awesome tricks with it, but now you cannot. You used to be able to go from the top platform of Battlefield and be able to sweetspot either ledge. Your fall speed has been drastically reduced so you float hardcore, and fortresshogging is more similar to Melee, but I got used to the momentum that 3.02 had.
Maybe I'm over reacting, but they took the move I analyzed the most and got the most mileage out of in terms of utility, it was easily his best move.
Bowser Changelist
Tilts
-Forward Tilt
--Upward angle animation tweaked.
--Now follows the standard +1/-1 damage progression for angles. Progression is 15/14/13 hi/med/lo
-Down Tilt
--Down Tilt1 hitboxes reduced and cleaned up.
--Down Tilt1 damage homogenized to 13 from 12/13 depending on hitbox. Trajectory angle on sweetspot lowered from 55 to 45. BKB reduced to 15 from 48. KBG increased from 78/90 to 100.
--Down Tilt2 hitboxes reduced and reorderd to match Down Tilt1.
--Down Tilt2 damage homogenized to 12. Trajectory angle on sourspot raised from 45 to 55.
--Hitlag on both hits homogenized to 1.0x.
Smashes
-Up Smash
--Initial hit stats matched to Melee Bowser. Damage 22/14 -> 20/17. Trajectory Angle 90/70 -> 90. BKB increased to 40 from 23. KBG changed from 85/90 -> 86 on both hitboxes.
--Second hit damage increased to 12 from 10. Angle changed from 270 to 280. BKB lowered from 60 to 54. KBG lowered from 100 to 85.
-Down Smash
--Hitboxes now move with Bowser's lateral movement instead of staying fixed while he advances forward.
--Linking hit damage reduced from 3 to 2.
--Final Hit knockback matched to Melee Bowser. BKB 55 -> 40, KBG 100 -> 140.
Aerials
-Down Air hitlag & SDI multipliers normalized to 1.0x.
Specials
-Neutral Special (Firebreath)
--Hitlag multiplier normalized to 1.0x from 1.1x.
-Forward Special (Koopa Klaw)
--Aerial animation improved & shifted down to match fall.
-Up Special (Whirling Fortress)
--Grounded mobility reduced from a variable ability to a static one. Can now halt all momentum immediately by releasing the control stick.
--No longer cancels into normal gravity after sliding off the ground, and uses the air Up-B physics.
--Air animation shortened to 50 frames from 80. Animation shifted down.
--Removed stray unsynced hitbox.
-Down Special (Bowser Bomb)
--Armor homogenized to always Heavy instead of sometimes Medium and sometimes Heavy.
--Landing hitbox hitlag normalized to 1.0x.
Others
-Ledgegrab range adjusted.
-Airdodge animation adjusted to allow horizontal wavelands.
-Jump Squat decreased from 8 to 6 frames.
-Over 100 getup attack startup reduced by about 18 frames.
-Dash Attack
--Armor on frame 1-9 increased from light to medium armor.
--Dash attack now moves about 10% further
--Dash attack strongest hitboxes are now unclankable.
--Removed second hit.
Bowser's up-B was his best move, it gave offense, defense, mobility, and you could do tons of awesome tricks with it, but now you cannot. You used to be able to go from the top platform of Battlefield and be able to sweetspot either ledge. Your fall speed has been drastically reduced so you float hardcore, and fortresshogging is more similar to Melee, but I got used to the momentum that 3.02 had.
Maybe I'm over reacting, but they took the move I analyzed the most and got the most mileage out of in terms of utility, it was easily his best move.
Mr. Bones
Smash Journeyman
But his Fortress Hog no longer kills you for ****ing up. It's slightly slower.
I can't believe they buffed Bowser and now people are sad. WTF. @.@ His onstage game will improve, I'm betting. I'm okay if Fortress Hogging is a bit slow. As long as his neutral game makes up for it even slightly.
#6framejumpsquat
I can't believe they buffed Bowser and now people are sad. WTF. @.@ His onstage game will improve, I'm betting. I'm okay if Fortress Hogging is a bit slow. As long as his neutral game makes up for it even slightly.
#6framejumpsquat
Xanthyr
Smash Journeyman
It's more than just Fortress hog man. Once you learn how to use the fortress hog it is super super easy and way more versatile. I haven't SD'd due to mechanical error in over three months, I feel like no one fully realized the power of his up-B so they don't know what they're missing.
Battlefield- SH Fortress to cover a platform tech option holding them in shield/racking up %, land on platform right after animation ends, grounded up-b into drop off platform sweetspot ledge to cancel the animation and follow up after that, that entire situation is now impossible to do now.
The other changes I still have to explore fully to appreciate it, but the up-B I have felt immediately and immensely.
Battlefield- SH Fortress to cover a platform tech option holding them in shield/racking up %, land on platform right after animation ends, grounded up-b into drop off platform sweetspot ledge to cancel the animation and follow up after that, that entire situation is now impossible to do now.
The other changes I still have to explore fully to appreciate it, but the up-B I have felt immediately and immensely.
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Crulex Crystallite
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 53
See this is how I feel after playing him for about an hour. Up+B can still be used to counter attack pressure, and most of his frame data is just more in favor of Bowser than the opponent. You can still Fortress Hog, though it feels like rolling in glue now. Everything else? Oh god I noticed immediately. Super happy.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
OH MY GOD
THIS WAVELANDS
EVERYTHING IS NOW OKAY
thank you based pmdt <3333333333
I would be happy if the collision changes were the only ones. everything is amazing
THIS WAVELANDS
EVERYTHING IS NOW OKAY
thank you based pmdt <3333333333
I would be happy if the collision changes were the only ones. everything is amazing
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Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Extra armor tho?
Jacob29
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2013
- Messages
- 530
no shield poke no spotdodge catch no roll catch
i haven't decided yet.
but it's probably just a rebalance rather than a nerf.
definitely a buff vs link/ivy/projectiles
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Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Yeah I think it was re-tooled to be an anti-projectile measure rather than whatever it was before.
Poorly spaced projectile? BOWSER TO THA FACE
Esp. since projectile safety as a whole has also gone down.
Poorly spaced projectile? BOWSER TO THA FACE
Esp. since projectile safety as a whole has also gone down.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Seriously
Seconding myself because I've never been this happy about a single patch change to anything in my entire life.
New goal: become the Bizzarro Flame of PM bowser
PootisKonga
Smash Ace
The changelist gave me the impression that he was overall nerfed, but I'm really not sure. Fortress Hogging feels arguably easier once you get used to it, though
Crulex Crystallite
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 53
That's how I'm feeling! I feel like Bowser can actually be a scary thing. I'm definitely maining him and GnW now.
TTTTTsd
Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
They did exactly what I wanted.
Those 8 frames of jumpsquat had to go, by trimming the fat I bet they meant that Bowser worked out yo. Also yeah waveland.
Those 8 frames of jumpsquat had to go, by trimming the fat I bet they meant that Bowser worked out yo. Also yeah waveland.
Mr. Bones
Smash Journeyman
"2014"
Just an entire Bowser. To tha face.
And I was good when Bowser was bad.
I'm going to be GAWD-LIEK now. Let's wreck stuff with the faster King.
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Mr. Bones
Smash Journeyman
--Shameless double post...my bad
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TTTTTsd
Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
Hey, you rapscallion! Switch your main icon from Toon Link back to Bowser, cause it's....
JaimeHR
Smash Ace
I'm really going to miss his Dash attack's second hit. At least it seems it wont clank against projectiles now.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Holy hell Jaime why haven't you posted in here before now
We need your wisdom dude
We need your wisdom dude
PootisKonga
Smash Ace
So wait, how exactly is Bowser better? The only buffs I noticed are more KBG on some moves, medium armor on dash attack, and a speed increase to the >100 ledge getup attack. I'm getting confused here @_@
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Mostly it's that everyone else is significantly worse, especially in terms of recovery - and Bowser thrives on edgeguarding.
But also, Bowser's jumpsquat is 25% shorter, and he can perfect waveland- which goes SUPER far. To see this, try fullhopping through a platform on BF (or maybe smashville to see the distance better), and RIGHT when your feet are through the platform, airdodge straight left or right.
But also, Bowser's jumpsquat is 25% shorter, and he can perfect waveland- which goes SUPER far. To see this, try fullhopping through a platform on BF (or maybe smashville to see the distance better), and RIGHT when your feet are through the platform, airdodge straight left or right.
Anonistry
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2013
- Messages
- 214
I see your theme sir, and I raise you:
Or actually his pre-fight, since it is the definition of epic:
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PootisKonga
Smash Ace
Also, how was his ledgegrab range changed? Might just be me, but I once Bowser Bombed right next to the stage (or at least close enough to grab in 3.02) and still SDed :/
Speaking of BB, it feels harder to control in midair, as I SDed again later on with a BB right next to the ledge even though I held the control stick towards the ledge
Speaking of BB, it feels harder to control in midair, as I SDed again later on with a BB right next to the ledge even though I held the control stick towards the ledge
cmart
Smash Lord
Reverse ledgegrabs were tightened across the board. You can now use debug to see them for yourself, which should help with spacing BB.
PootisKonga
Smash Ace
Thanks for reminding me what Debug is capable of! This is my first major update and it's somewhat overwhelming lol
AncientPancakes
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2012
- Messages
- 52
I really like the changes that Bowser got in this update, but I am really struggling with fortress hogging now. In 3.0 I would let the momentum carry me to the ledge but now the upb stops too fast for me to do it like I used to.
Is there an easier way to fortress hog in 3.5?
Is there an easier way to fortress hog in 3.5?
Magus420
Smash Master
Yeah, releasing the stick causes him (and DK) to stop immediately on the ground like in Melee, which also allows him to switch directions quickly by releasing before pressing the other way. To hog in 3.5 you can either smash back right as you leave the ground (this will avoid the halt and keep sliding a bit), or a slower but really easy way if your back is to the ledge by waiting until later in the animation before nudging yourself off the rest of the way so you can't over/undershoot (the halt with neutral input also helps position yourself right next to the edge there as well).
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deadjames
Smash Lord
Used Bowser in tourney yesterday for the first time in like a year, I think he's still trash, I'm really salty that he didn't get his fireball that he had in the dev build I got to play.
Xanthyr
Smash Journeyman
I'm finding it easier to hog if you're facing towards the center of the stage, then you can fling yourself at the edge towards the ending of the animation.
The way Magus describes works, but over all I feel it is less consistent than the 3.02 Fortress. I'm not really seeing how this iteration makes it easier at all to fortress hog. The gravity change makes Magus way works better in 3.5, as opposed to you would let go of the stick and you'd slide yourself off with inertia in 3.02. With the lack of inertia, you cannot let go of the stick if you're trying to fortress hog. With 3.02 gravity, you'd be able to grab the ledge later in the animation as your ledge box would detect sooner as you fall, but the slight change makes it that your animation can end mid-air and still not grab the ledge as the ledge box is center and front of Bowser in special fall.
The hitbox data is really really interesting and I'm having a lot of fun analyzing it all. The horizontal control you have over the up-B is interesting on the ground. His fortress hog game feels weaker to me, and the offensive fortress options are different now because of the gravity.
If you're facing away from the stage, you have to fall a good bit sooner in the animation to grab the ledge. If you're facing towards the center of the stage, you can grab from much farther away, as the special fall ledge box will detect the edge.
A lot of the tricks I was lamenting over aren't in as bad of shape as I claimed, but they definitely have changed to be less safe, and following up is slower because you literally grab the ledge slower while using up-B.
The way Magus describes works, but over all I feel it is less consistent than the 3.02 Fortress. I'm not really seeing how this iteration makes it easier at all to fortress hog. The gravity change makes Magus way works better in 3.5, as opposed to you would let go of the stick and you'd slide yourself off with inertia in 3.02. With the lack of inertia, you cannot let go of the stick if you're trying to fortress hog. With 3.02 gravity, you'd be able to grab the ledge later in the animation as your ledge box would detect sooner as you fall, but the slight change makes it that your animation can end mid-air and still not grab the ledge as the ledge box is center and front of Bowser in special fall.
The hitbox data is really really interesting and I'm having a lot of fun analyzing it all. The horizontal control you have over the up-B is interesting on the ground. His fortress hog game feels weaker to me, and the offensive fortress options are different now because of the gravity.
If you're facing away from the stage, you have to fall a good bit sooner in the animation to grab the ledge. If you're facing towards the center of the stage, you can grab from much farther away, as the special fall ledge box will detect the edge.
A lot of the tricks I was lamenting over aren't in as bad of shape as I claimed, but they definitely have changed to be less safe, and following up is slower because you literally grab the ledge slower while using up-B.
Jacob29
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2013
- Messages
- 530
I am finding it near impossible to grab the ledge from behind.
Facing the stage I can do it.
But facing away.. I just cannot grab the ledge at all.
Dont really understand why they changed this... again.. :/ like seriously can you at least give a reason behind changing how hog works yet again?
also this stupid ass 'bug' is still here, where if you fall off the ledge on the near last frame you are 100% dead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImcpO0iJRK4&feature=youtu.be
Facing the stage I can do it.
But facing away.. I just cannot grab the ledge at all.
Dont really understand why they changed this... again.. :/ like seriously can you at least give a reason behind changing how hog works yet again?
also this stupid ass 'bug' is still here, where if you fall off the ledge on the near last frame you are 100% dead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImcpO0iJRK4&feature=youtu.be
ItsRainingGravy
Smash Ace
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TTTTTsd
Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
I got fortress hog to work while facing the ledge (not stage) but it's hella hard to do. Gotta get used to it, AGAIN. At least this sacrifice was worth it because whooaaa wavelands and jumpsquat.
^That video looks and sounds the way I feel. 3.5 Bowser is a good thing in this world. Its kinda wild to see some peeps are sour grapes about his changes. Sure FH is much stiffer. Literally the only change I feel is a real nerf. And I'm totally fine with that. I still got my ledge jump AND overall better flow in neutral. To the kooplings and pmdt, we phuckin did it. WE DID IT. Im VERY excited.
cmart
Smash Lord
FYI Fortress is reversible now. This means that if you Fortress towards the ledge, you probably turned towards it and are dealing with the worse reverse grab window. It's probably safer to make sure your fortress is pointed towards the stage before you start moving.
Jacob29
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2013
- Messages
- 530
Ya I am very excited about the changes too.
But I just don't get why we have to, once again, re-learn fortress hogging.
They never gave a good reason last time, and I would like to know they would explain it this time. Because I don't get what making Bowser's sd for a little while accomplishes.