Ganreizu
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2010
- Messages
- 670
I was going to keep this a bit of a secret until apex but i'm not a god nor am i a genius so i figure i would post some interesting ness tech i found in order for us to explore it's potential together.
I don't know whether this is already known, but i do know that it isn't in any of the guides (with the exception of an unsure assertion that djc dair is the quickest way to get out of shield), threads, or videos on this forum or on youtube. I don't see any ness' taking advantage of it. If it is known there certainly isn't enough discussion about it, and that is what this thread is for.
A little while ago in the ness meta discussion i had a curiosity about a strange thing that was happening to me in matches. I did a little lab'ing and i ended up discovering an interesting and completely unique movement for ness, even though it had nothing really to do with what i was curious about in the first place. A lot of ness' utilize dair for it's auto-cancel window, mostly as a mix-up/bait or whatever. It wasn't really until hbox that we saw a ness that was taking advantage of the auto-cancel windows on all of his aerials and applying it to movement. Combined with the double jump arcs that djc characters have and the fact that ness stops moving vertically after an aerial starts during his double jump, we can use djc and dair together for movement.
Some people probably know this much already. The problem is doing it quickly. At first, i was doing this using Y -> Y+left/right/neutral control stick -> cstick down -> fast fall, and i questioned it's use on the ground. Doing it like this i could traverse platforms extremely quickly, without the lag nor the proximity limitation of using an air dodge. Using double jump + dair, i could effectively extend the distance in which i can get myself onto a platform, as well as move from ground level to top platform (on specific stages) more quickly than any other method ness has. Since dair auto-cancels within a massive 19 frame window, you can get on a platform and buffer a light/heavy shield or grab, or any other grounded option really.
All of a sudden ness was becoming a lot more mobile on platform stages. When i realized that there was another way to jump outside of Y and X, a way that everyone seems to ignore (i'm talking about tap jumping), things became more interesting. By using
/
->
->
->
ness' psi dashing became usable on the ground and out of shield far more quickly. Using these inputs is important for several reasons. 1) it allows you to input jump+jump as quickly as possible using different hands, which lets you double jump as quickly as possible after jump squat frames. Using the buttons twice is too slow for this, and the notches in the control stick make the motions easier since you won't really need to memorize a specific degree of input. 2) Using diagonal tap jump will set up ness to move left/right without you having to do anything, and again since dair auto-cancels, you end up with wavedash esque movement without wavedashing's disadvantages (slow startup, landing lag) and with it's own unique advantages (fastest character in the entire game to get out of shield, unique movement both on ground and with platforms, greatly enhanced evasive options, extended grabbing ability).
There are obvious downsides, being, if you execute this at a bad time or input it wrong, you either get hit and are without a double jump (which is obviously a huge deal for us), or you end up doing a variety of things depending on which input you missed. If you miss the second jump you do full hop dair (bad), if you miss the cstick you just double jump (BAD), if your thumb is too tense you might end up hitting B on your way to the cstick and doing pkfire or pkthunder (extra bad), and if you miss the fast fall you either won't auto-cancel and will probably suffer dair landing lag or you just won't do the motion fast enough to be helpful to you since you won't auto cancel as fast. The good news is as long as you execute correctly all the time, if you do it at the wrong time you're pretty likely to either be able to put up shield in time or land before you get hit and therefore keep your double jump.
"Psi dashing" (the name i gave this unique movement) is particularly interesting in regards to oos options. Since you can jump out of shield, meaning you can tap jump out of shield, we can psi dash out of shield. When we're in shield, the diagonal inputs will roll instead of jumping, which makes the tap jump input window more narrow than it is in neutral. You can either input in between the diagonal and up in order to psi jump as normal, or you can release shield and the control stick degree range won't be as narrow. You can even aim your shield left/right and use Y+Y to double jump instead, but it's pretty suboptimal compared to just getting the narrow control stick input and it forces you to sometimes aim your shield away from your opponent which isn't always a good idea.
If i'm correct, psi dashing perfectly results in a 10 frame movement option (5 frames to be "airborne", 1 frame to input jump+dair+fastfall, 4 frames auto-cancel?), which is faster than both wavedashing and normally dropping shield which are both 15 frames long, but i haven't actually done any calculations or fact checking on it's speed. Wavedashing will give you far more distance, but this gives ness a micro spacing game he didn't have before. Using it during your opponents approach will cause them to have to re-evaluate the next steps on the fly and give ness the opportunity to punish an approach. Using it in normal movement will make you harder to predict and harder to catch so long as you're not obvious with it. The biggest issues for me in using it defensively/offensively oos is accounting for shield stun and using it at the right time during shield pressure, specifically spacie shield pressure.
What situations can we escape using this? What match-ups does this change? Is it even useful? Discuss.
Here's a video of me practicing movement on platform stages. No johns on the tech flubs.![Smile :) :)](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
I don't know whether this is already known, but i do know that it isn't in any of the guides (with the exception of an unsure assertion that djc dair is the quickest way to get out of shield), threads, or videos on this forum or on youtube. I don't see any ness' taking advantage of it. If it is known there certainly isn't enough discussion about it, and that is what this thread is for.
A little while ago in the ness meta discussion i had a curiosity about a strange thing that was happening to me in matches. I did a little lab'ing and i ended up discovering an interesting and completely unique movement for ness, even though it had nothing really to do with what i was curious about in the first place. A lot of ness' utilize dair for it's auto-cancel window, mostly as a mix-up/bait or whatever. It wasn't really until hbox that we saw a ness that was taking advantage of the auto-cancel windows on all of his aerials and applying it to movement. Combined with the double jump arcs that djc characters have and the fact that ness stops moving vertically after an aerial starts during his double jump, we can use djc and dair together for movement.
Some people probably know this much already. The problem is doing it quickly. At first, i was doing this using Y -> Y+left/right/neutral control stick -> cstick down -> fast fall, and i questioned it's use on the ground. Doing it like this i could traverse platforms extremely quickly, without the lag nor the proximity limitation of using an air dodge. Using double jump + dair, i could effectively extend the distance in which i can get myself onto a platform, as well as move from ground level to top platform (on specific stages) more quickly than any other method ness has. Since dair auto-cancels within a massive 19 frame window, you can get on a platform and buffer a light/heavy shield or grab, or any other grounded option really.
All of a sudden ness was becoming a lot more mobile on platform stages. When i realized that there was another way to jump outside of Y and X, a way that everyone seems to ignore (i'm talking about tap jumping), things became more interesting. By using
There are obvious downsides, being, if you execute this at a bad time or input it wrong, you either get hit and are without a double jump (which is obviously a huge deal for us), or you end up doing a variety of things depending on which input you missed. If you miss the second jump you do full hop dair (bad), if you miss the cstick you just double jump (BAD), if your thumb is too tense you might end up hitting B on your way to the cstick and doing pkfire or pkthunder (extra bad), and if you miss the fast fall you either won't auto-cancel and will probably suffer dair landing lag or you just won't do the motion fast enough to be helpful to you since you won't auto cancel as fast. The good news is as long as you execute correctly all the time, if you do it at the wrong time you're pretty likely to either be able to put up shield in time or land before you get hit and therefore keep your double jump.
"Psi dashing" (the name i gave this unique movement) is particularly interesting in regards to oos options. Since you can jump out of shield, meaning you can tap jump out of shield, we can psi dash out of shield. When we're in shield, the diagonal inputs will roll instead of jumping, which makes the tap jump input window more narrow than it is in neutral. You can either input in between the diagonal and up in order to psi jump as normal, or you can release shield and the control stick degree range won't be as narrow. You can even aim your shield left/right and use Y+Y to double jump instead, but it's pretty suboptimal compared to just getting the narrow control stick input and it forces you to sometimes aim your shield away from your opponent which isn't always a good idea.
If i'm correct, psi dashing perfectly results in a 10 frame movement option (5 frames to be "airborne", 1 frame to input jump+dair+fastfall, 4 frames auto-cancel?), which is faster than both wavedashing and normally dropping shield which are both 15 frames long, but i haven't actually done any calculations or fact checking on it's speed. Wavedashing will give you far more distance, but this gives ness a micro spacing game he didn't have before. Using it during your opponents approach will cause them to have to re-evaluate the next steps on the fly and give ness the opportunity to punish an approach. Using it in normal movement will make you harder to predict and harder to catch so long as you're not obvious with it. The biggest issues for me in using it defensively/offensively oos is accounting for shield stun and using it at the right time during shield pressure, specifically spacie shield pressure.
What situations can we escape using this? What match-ups does this change? Is it even useful? Discuss.
Here's a video of me practicing movement on platform stages. No johns on the tech flubs.
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