Nurturing a local Melee community

[Onomanic]

Hello. I've recently gotten back into the whole Melee thing with a small tourney hosted by a friend, and saw some potential for growth. It was fun, sure, and really that's what the game is all about, but most of the players sucked. I mean, I don't want to say I'm really any good but I know at least my basics (WD, OoS stuff, L-cancel, DD, etc) Any tips for helping them progress so I can progress as well?

 

[DerfMidWest]

make them interested in the game by showing them pro players for whichever characters they use.
or cool tricks like the samus super wavedash.
techskill/combo videos are good to show them also.
Or just like teach them little tricks to make them interested.

also hosting smashfests always helps.

 

[Onomanic]

make them interested in the game by showing them pro players for whichever characters they use.
or cool tricks like the samus super wavedash.
techskill/combo videos are good to show them also.
Or just like teach them little tricks to make them interested.

also hosting smashfests always helps.

Sounds good. We plan on holding monthlies. For whatever reason, we have a pot going, $3 per person, 8 to 9 people there. Not sure if that's the best way to help them out when a lot of them are thinking about the money.

 

[DerfMidWest]

uhm if its only 8 or 9 people, make it $1.
monthlies as small as that are basically just smashfests anyway.
so yea, teach these kids some basic tech and get them into watching competitive players and you'll have yourself a baby scene in no time.
We did the same thing over here in cleveland.
Our scene (of serious players) went from 3 to like 14 really fast.

 

[rawrimamonster]

Show them youtube vids, usually works for drawing in nubs. Then slowly introduce them to the game and give them tips very kindly and give them suggestions for characters to play until their tech skill grows.

I will warn you

Spoiler

and a lotta the community will attack me on this since theres smokers here but i frankly dont give a ****

If any of them are the xXx420xjuggalox420PROSNIPERxWEED1337xSuperwiggerxcallofdutyxXx new generation of gamer type, forget about teaching them anything, they'll have a casual gamer buzzblown ragequit sooner than want to work to get good. I'm talking from numerous experiences.

Spoiler

before the smokers here have a freakout, weed smoker =\= ******** pothead, big difference

 

[Ryobeat]

I'd say travel man. Your in NJ, right? Get in touch with all sides of Atl North, Central NJ, NYC, PA, etc. Join facebook groups, and go driving around with them and meet new crews.

 

[DerfMidWest]

he isn't talking about expanding the scene, he was talking about getting this group of local casuals into the game.
but yea, keep in mind, in your small group, at least one of them is going to get frustrated and quit the game.

 

[Ryobeat]

OH, okay in that case, whip out the ol Advanced Melee Techniques by Wak, and just play alot.

 

[DerfMidWest]

don't whip that vid out too soon.
thats like whipping your **** out on a first date.
you gotta get to know the girl first (in this case, the girl would be the small community you got here)
first, you've gotta get her thinking "this could be the guy for me"
then you slowly nudge her into being more interested in you
show her what you're all about (tech vids, silentspectre matches, combo videos, wombo combo, etc)
then BOOM whip out the big ol' **** (wak's videos) because they want it.
next thing you know, you got a healthy relationship.

 

[rawrimamonster]

OH, okay in that case, whip out the ol Advanced Melee Techniques by Wak, and just play alot.

Yknow that might be a good idea in numerous ways...the metagame is way too advanced for noobs nowadays, maybe it'd be better and less daunting for them to work through the metagame the way older players did. Like me I started in 2004 watching old isai vs ken vids and got my ideas working and getting better from there, then I started watching the old FC vids and I gradually came up with the community...though having less tournament experience due to being poor I still moved ahead with everyone applying things i've seen and listening and watching changes...but...

my point is, the learning curve is too steep at current. New players see all this flash and tech and simply assume HEY I WANNA DO THAT TOO. What they should be doing is learning from a more shallow learning curve and come from the old metagame and move into the new at their pace.

 

[Ryobeat]

don't whip that vid out too soon.
thats like whipping your **** out on a first date.
you gotta get to know the girl first (in this case, the girl would be the small community you got here)
first, you've gotta get her thinking "this could be the guy for me"
then you slowly nudge her into being more interested in you
show her what you're all about (tech vids, silentspectre matches, combo videos, wombo combo, etc)
then BOOM whip out the big ol' **** (wak's videos) because they want it.
next thing you know, you got a healthy relationship.

Oh my god, this is the best way to describe it XDDDDDD

 

[Onomanic]

Yknow that might be a good idea in numerous ways...the metagame is way too advanced for noobs nowadays, maybe it'd be better and less daunting for them to work through the metagame the way older players did. Like me I started in 2004 watching old isai vs ken vids and got my ideas working and getting better from there, then I started watching the old FC vids and I gradually came up with the community...though having less tournament experience due to being poor I still moved ahead with everyone applying things i've seen and listening and watching changes...but...

my point is, the learning curve is too steep at current. New players see all this flash and tech and simply assume HEY I WANNA DO THAT TOO. What they should be doing is learning from a more shallow learning curve and come from the old metagame and move into the new at their pace.

I agree whole-heartedly with that bit about the metagame. I've been on hiatus for a year or two and had kind of loss touch with melee for a long time prior. I'm watching these videos from Apex and man, how things have changed. I love that Wak video though, it's still helpful for some of the people I introduce it to. So as a guideline, I should show them older stuff like Ken and PC Chris instead of Apex 2012? I know they're playing as Samus, Marth, few IC's, Link, Luigi, Kirby, to name a few.

I'd say travel man. Your in NJ, right? Get in touch with all sides of Atl North, Central NJ, NYC, PA, etc. Join facebook groups, and go driving around with them and meet new crews.

I'm working on the whole traveling thing. Kind of broke, no license, etc.

 

[DerfMidWest]

those videos are for people who want to learn to be good at the game.
you need to make them want to learn first.
thats where tech skill videos and stuff come in.
you show them people doing cool ****, and they want to learn, so you start them off with the basics and let them go from there.

 

[Onomanic]

those videos are for people who want to learn to be good at the game.
you need to make them want to learn first.
thats where tech skill videos and stuff come in.
you show them people doing cool ****, and they want to learn, so you start them off with the basics and let them go from there.

Any suggestions? I can think of a few off the top of my head. They're all familiar with the Wombo Combo video. Whether that's good or bad, I'm not sure.

 

[rawrimamonster]

I agree whole-heartedly with that bit about the metagame. I've been on hiatus for a year or two and had kind of loss touch with melee for a long time prior. I'm watching these videos from Apex and man, how things have changed. I love that Wak video though, it's still helpful for some of the people I introduce it to. So as a guideline, I should show them older stuff like Ken and PC Chris instead of Apex 2012? I know they're playing as Samus, Marth, few IC's, Link, Luigi, Kirby, to name a few.

Lol yeah, drag up old stuff like Azen vs anden or PC vs ken, or even stuff from FC3 with husband and killaOR or variety barrage wes or ultraluigi if you can find anything. If you show them somethin like the stuff silentwolf or lovage does i think their hands would wither like someone after gettin outta shower into the cold air. hahaha

 

[Onomanic]

Lol yeah, drag up old stuff like Azen vs anden or PC vs ken, or even stuff from FC3 with husband and killaOR or variety barrage wes or ultraluigi if you can find anything. If you show them somethin like the stuff silentwolf or lovage does i think their hands would wither like someone after gettin outta shower into the cold air. hahaha

All those names are bringing me baaaaack, lmao.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Hmmm thats an odd cast you got there.... For the samus maybe show silentwolf's active artwork: samus edition or some of phanna's videos, but those might be over the top...

For the luigi, blea gelo's combo video,"**** luigi"

For the ICs.... Hmmm... Old chudat matches are nice.
Maybe some matches of wobbles or fly amanita. NOTHING with wobbling though. Not yet, anyway. You want them to get a solid base to the game first, and having ICs in a group of low level players can be... Troublesome, as they can't really avoid grabs. If that kid learns to wobble too soon, that may be the end of your scene, since nobody like getting 0-deathed just for getting grabbed. Also a lot of IC players at low level learn about wobbling and that will be all that they try to do. They don't learn the character, just the technique. Be careful what you expose him to.

So yea. Hope this helps.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

you should really just screw around a bit yourself and dont be too serious about the game.waks techs and i think it is a great idea to show them mlg video IF they ask for it. If they just seem to want to play please just play with them, also praise is really important when teaching some one. the 1s who want to learn will mostly just ask you for more info. speaking on ICs, freeze glitch on noobs in friendlies or team friendlies is hilarious, if there is anyone else in your area that is good they they will feel helpless against them but if they are frozen they are sure to get some comic relief from it
anyways come @ that kirby player hard on the char switch.

 

[DerfMidWest]

The kirby will switch on his own. It may take up to a year or so, but he'll get frustrated and pick up a higher tier character eventually

 

[GunPunch]

vanir, i love that girl analogy post!

i got into competitive smash this past year. i met a competitive player who destroyed me with his falcon. i'm really competitive so i was like, "woah. holy ****. i need to get good at this game so i can do that." so, if any of ur friends are really competitive, beating them with style and beating them good could flip a switch and make them interested.

as for what everyone has said, yea tech skill vid and combo vids are good. although, i'd be careful with tech skill vids. although vids like Samus Actice Artwork is awesome! sometimes noobs dont appreciate how hard and therefore awesome some tech is. like, sometimes i pull off some awesome tech (while playing with my scrubby roommates) and i freak out...and they have no idea. powershielding is cool to my roommates (read "noobs"). i think they have a count of how many powershields they've done. so, maybe try to powershield alot?

combo vids are great tho. i'd def show them "it takes guts to be amazing"
def show them a super-wavedash too (i almost **** my pants when my friend first showed me it). and have them try it so they appreciate it. it's all about getting them to love the game. get them to appreciate the skill it takes. then once they start to learn the skills, they'll feel good about it...then they're hooked. i mean, my roommates play smash with me alot and they get better. but they dont have the passion for the game like i do. they still like their COD and poop like that, lol.

 

[Massive]

Nobody is ever as interested in the youtube video you're showing them as you are.
They just never are.

If they have a competitive streak, beat them frequently and they will seek out ways to improve on their own. Otherwise you'll just be "that guy" who made them watch some boring video about a 10 year old game.

 

[GunPunch]

Nobody is ever as interested in the youtube video you're showing them as you are.
They just never are.

If they have a competitive streak, beat them frequently and they will seek out ways to improve on their own. Otherwise you'll just be "that guy" who made them watch some boring video about a 10 year old game.

yea, this is very true.

 

[Jockmaster]

Idk, watching vids of Darkrain and Isai are what really got me in to the competitive stuff (back when I thought I liked using Captain Falcon). The Youtube vids are how you draw people in to the competitive aspect, it's fascinating to see how good you can get. Even total nubs can appreciate really good pro play.

 

[Twinkles]

Massive has a point, it varies from person to person but for the most part, lots of people you introduce may not be as interested in the video as you are even if the video is very good. Showed M2K vs. Shiz at ROM to a friend, guy didn't even bat an eyelash.

On the other hand though, I showed a friend the TAS video of C. Falcon & Marth team. He was pretty entranced by it.

 

[GunPunch]

yea, but did someone else show u those youtube vids? i'm just agreeing that USUALLY when u show someone else a youtube vid u like, they dont like it as much as u. that's not to say they cant still think it's awesome, just not as awesome as u think it is.

also, my friend and i where talking about this and we agreed that captain falcon combos are more attractive to noobs and pros alike. he is very acrobatic and fast. he just looks cool. samus combos, for instance, are sometimes like "oh, that was cute" but anyone can enjoy seeing a grown man smash his knee into someone's face three times in a row. or appreciate an awesome falcon punch.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Silentspectre videos are the way my friend got me into melee.
He also got me into being a falcon main by telling me falcon had laser nipples and then kneeing things.
But falcon is super cool to n00bs, so show them old school falcons (isai, jeff, darkrain) and really fun to watch falcons too (mango)

Uhm... For combo videos...
Silence (silent spectre)
Mind reader (darkrain)
Ooh girl (pakman)
Ariquenuubs
It takes guts to be amazing
Mang0 + alex19 + lucky = **** x 3 trailer

Those are usually my goto vids for new players because they are fun to watch. Ariquenuubs is a little over their heads usually though :/

 

[Massive]

Falcon/Falco are probably the flashiest characters in the game, and probably the easiest to generate interest with.

The vast majority of new players can do Falco's trademark pillar combos and feel like a boss with almost no practice. Stuff like L-cancelling and basic spacing are both covered in improving that technique and can be introduced if they so desire.

When trying to hook casual players you have to show them cool techniques they can do right now to keep them interested. They have to feel like higher levels of skill are attainable to them, and that they'll actually have fun doing it. There are many basic techniques new players can implement almost immediately that, in addition to being very effective even on a high level, will make them feel like they're progressing and getting good at the game.

 

[Bones0]

Take them to a tournament and let them get absolutely annihilated. Half of them will be like "**** that," but the other half will be like "I HAVE TO ****ING IMPROVE." From my own experience with new players, trying to coddle them just doesn't work. The people who are giong to quit are going to quit no matter how long you delay them going to a tournament. No one that plays this game goes into every match 100% prepared, so if they don't like going into tournament unprepared, they'll never be interested in improving to attend more tournaments.

Some more specific tips I would give is to keep a healthy variety of characters in your scene. Yeah, spacies are fun, but if you and the second best guy in your scene only use spacies 24/7, obviously they will feel pressured to switch to them as well. Even for the guys with low tiers, just let them play low tiers until they get good enough at the basics that they can decide on their own if they want to change it up, and even then I would just recommend that they play one top tier along with their original main.

Also, depending on how good they are, don't force too much stuff on them at once. Giving them tips is fine, but you don't want to be overwhelming them with all of Melee's options in any given situation because they won't know where to start. Instead of telling them what Mango would have done or listing a million different situations they need to be prepared for in a matchup, just let them play and figure out the basics, and just occasionally correct super bad habits that are completely limiting them. The most common example is rolling. If they just shield and roll all game while you run over them, they aren't learning and they aren't having fun. It's things like that where you need to take a second after the match to say "Yeah, you shield a little too much. You should try to avoid attacks by moving instead. You may get hit a lot when you stop trying to shield all the time, but you'll also be able to get more hits yourself."

 

[DerfMidWest]

How my friend taught me to stop rolling:
Picked puff. Ran at me. Rested me out of roll while yelling "YOU ROLLED!"

That will teach them fast
But don't do it too often or they will think puff is cheap and quit.

EDIT: you can also Jump at them while falcon punching backwards, this is harder to hit with, but a lot funnier and possibley even more effective.

 

[GunPunch]

yea, i played puff once against my friend and told him it was kinda hard to get rests...then i rested him 3 times. now he hates puff forever. actually, it can be hard for me sometimes to hit ppl when they spam rolling. i prefer to play marth and grab/techchase them to oblivion.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Nubs hate marth to death, because they can't deal with his range/combos/gimps

And, if you make a big deal about it, they will think puff is hilarious.
Pretend that she is a ****ty character with one super **** move (rest).
Don't even bother playing her smart, just jump at them and rest and ****.

Don't utilt->rest too much though, because that **** is mad dumb.


Oh, also, don't gimp scrubs too hard. Let them recover sometimes, because gimping them makes them feel helpless and bad.
Obviously, do it a little, when they recover poorly, so they realize they recovered bad.


Remember though, worry more about fun than improvement. thats how you'll inspire them to get into the game.

 

[rawrimamonster]

Oh, also, don't gimp scrubs too hard. Let them recover sometimes, because gimping them makes them feel helpless and bad.
Obviously, do it a little, when they recover poorly, so they realize they recovered bad.

This is...a kinda touchy subject. I let a friend get away with this for a while, while he was trying to get better. Anytime I tried to play serious he'd have a ragequit or just go lax with his playstyle and play like hes indignant and had given up...and that pisses me off because I hate seeing weakness. So I had to limit my options and ended up getting worse from it, its definitely players specific in what they can handle. Just gauge carefully what will make them rage and what they consider "fair". It DOES work and keeps them playing but, well yea...

 

[DerfMidWest]

Mmm, what I meant was don't just go dtilt crazy on scrubs with marth.
If you're gonna gimp, don't make it seem easy and don't just gimp for every kill.
You don't go full out on scrubs, you need to slowly work them to your full **** mode.

 

[Onomanic]

Had a 10+ hour smash fest. Played till dawn. Good ****. Our CF player was asking about improving which was great, though a lot of us were giggling mad with no sleep. Of course it's about having fun but I give advice about getting punished. For example, I was tech chasing him all night because he would always roll away from me on his get ups. His little Uthrow -> knee combo got old quick, too.

What do you guys think is more important to learn first, as far as tech skill? Lcancel or WD? As a more experienced player at this point, I'd say Lcancel. I learned WD first back in the day but today I realize Lcanceling is arguably more important for basic play.

 

[rawrimamonster]

Had a 10+ hour smash fest. Played till dawn. Good ****. Our CF player was asking about improving which was great, though a lot of us were giggling mad with no sleep. Of course it's about having fun but I give advice about getting punished. For example, I was tech chasing him all night because he would always roll away from me on his get ups. His little Uthrow -> knee combo got old quick, too.

What do you guys think is more important to learn first, as far as tech skill? Lcancel or WD? As a more experienced player at this point, I'd say Lcancel. I learned WD first back in the day but today I realize Lcanceling is arguably more important for basic play.

Lcancel is the incremental building block for advancement past being a scrub so yes that. Make sure to teach them how to do Lcancel drills then move to shffling, directly after should be wavedashing ALONG with teaching proper spacing and stage control tactics. One mistake I see a lot of new players making is needlessly wavedashing like it means something, they get punished hard and end up ragequitting because they get complacent.

 

[Onomanic]

I reconsider the whole l-cancel thing since some of them struggle to SHFF, lol. Baby steps. Or SH for that matter.

 

[DerfMidWest]

oh for SH, have them go into training mode and practice it in 1/4 speed.
then after a few minutes, have them try to do it in 2x speed.
after that let them loose in regular mode.

its an exercise, so they won't see immediate results but tell them to do that for warmup before every smashfest and stuff and they'll be SHing consistently in no time.
note:this also works for multishines, but don't worry about those. especially since there aren't even any spacies.

teach the falcon player to tech chase and do like sideB-> things.
If he can learn like.. uair->knee, thats an awesome starting point, but he needs L-canceling first.

L-canceling is more important for some of the characters...
Like Falcon needs to be able to SHFFL to do crap.
But for others (ICs, Samus, etc.) wavedashing is more important

not to say that both are not essential to learn.

 

[Massive]

The best way to teach someone to wavedash is to teach them to waveland, and let them figure the rest out on their own. Wavedashes are character and situation dependant, but wavelanding strategies are nearly universal and can make even the Bowserest characters seem quick and dangerous. People can also understand the concept and the timing a lot better if it visibly stems from an action they have a lot of experience with (jumping and landing).

L cancelling is important for almost everything, but there's no fun way to teach it (you have to do drills) let them do that on their own time. At their level, experience against people will still help them substantially more than L-cancelling will.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Uhm... I'm not sure that I agree.
If you teach the IC players how to wavedash, or more importantly, wavesmash, they are just gonna WD->dsmash all over the place.
Which is good for newer players.

 

[Massive]

If a new player wanted to main IC's I think the best practice is to encourage them to quit the game.

Tollolololololololol.