NU To OU Project- First batch

[Terywj [태리]]

Are we discussing U-Turners in general? Or just ones in the lower tiers?

BTW can you make the title "NU" instead of "Nu"? It's annoying me.. ._.

-Terywj

 

[CRASHiC]

The goal is to create a pokemon to the best of our ability that can compete in the Standard tier and be a viable option to pick.

This is why I recomended Techician. Now it becomes a Scout that isn't weak to Heatran and can hit Rotom-A pretty heavy and with priority.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Aqua Jet along with Pursuit and Technician work, yes.

Doesn't it already get Pursuit? I forget.

-Terywj

 

[Wave⁂]

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.

Give Pedo U-Turn.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.

Give Pedo U-Turn.

Ohh, that makes more sense.

It also fits aesthetically too. Flavor flavor.

-Terywj

 

[CRASHiC]

Question: will he need Choice Scarf, or is his 317 max speed enough for him to come in with choice band and abuse Aqua Jet or another appropriate move from his scout/revenge kill list? Or perhaps even a life orb.

He can still come in a out speed and kill GDose, and with choice band he can 2HKO Rotom without stealth rocks. that's just one example. I'd have to look at the rest of OU. That would be another thing other he would have over scout Scizor.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I think Choice Band + Aqua Jet is good.

If I may I want to request Typhlosion in the next batch.

-Terywj

 

[CRASHiC]

Alright, moving on from that shallow (lol) pokemon, Zangoose.

It strikes me as odd that Zangoose dropped so far this generation, being forced into Borederline last gen, being VERY useful in OU. So, why did Zangoose fall so far? To be honest, I'm at a lost.

1. Immunity grants it poison immunity, allowing it to avoid toxic spikes.
2. It gains elemental punches, as did all physical types.
3. Silk Scarf gained a 20 percent boost.
4. Close Combat.

My guess is that in a world full of offense, Zangoose could no longer go, Oh, Hey there wall, I'm going to set up on you, kay? It rarely gets that opportunity in today's game, and even more, with Close Combat running around everywhere, along with stealth rocks, spikes, among other types, it just doesn't have the bulk nor the speed to do what it needs to. Another problem comes from there simply being better options than a Zangoose with a silk scarf and quick attack, that being anything with Life Orb Bullet Punch. Steel types have also increased, as well as the ever present Rotom, making its main use seem even less viable. Zangoose just doesn't make the cut sadly.

So how to fix it?

Lazy man's answer:
give it extreme Speed.

yeah, let's aid its niche that is no longer a viable niche. That'll work.

No, no it won't. Instead you are setting yourself up for disaster by making a pokemon so specialized that in the right metagame it will destroy it, ALA Blissey and Skarmory in G/S/C. So, not only do we still have a pokemon that isn't viable, but could wreck havok in the wrong environment.

So, with that, we see a need to create a new niche for Zangoose. Any suggestions?

 

[Wave⁂]

I say no to ExtremeSpeed. Lucario and Linoone have that covered.

Zangoose's biggest problem is its poor Speed.
Yeah, I got nothin'.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Quick Feet? Agility?

Also, CRASH!C, wouldn't it better if you updated the OP with the edits for Flareon and Sharpedo so far?

-Terywj

 

[CRASHiC]

I can't believe, out of all the pokemon I would have no idea how to fix it would be Zangoose. that is a big surprise for me.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

What do you think about Quick Feet?

-Terywj

 

[Moozle]

What do you think about Quick Feet?

-Terywj

My first instinct was guts, but quick feet would work even better since it's zangoose's speed that really screws him over.

 

[UltiMario]

Yeah, but that extra damage isn't helping the fact hes getting ***** by priority.

Besides, in reality, this shouldn't really be "NU to OU" when it will more probably be "NU To UU" or "NU to BL" since you can only solve so much that is wrong with a Pokemon by Abilities and moves alone.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

With the Serene Grace Sacred Fire Flareon holding a Choice Scarf exception. That would be pretty badazz IMO.

Also, what were our final edits on Sharpedo? 'Cuz the OP only has what CRASH!C's ideas were.

-Terywj

 

[Circa]

Something tells me STAB and a base 115 Attack stat makes Extremespeed a little less "covered" by Lucario and Linoone than you obviously think. That **** could be extremely dangerous. The only problem it has from there is the fact that the opponent would never let you get the SD in unless they were locked into something that can't even touch you. Zangoose just simply isn't bulky enough (and wasn't given the right typing) to utilize SD in Standard play. One route to go from there would be to actually remove SD, give it Extremespeed, and also give it an ability to abuse the STAB Extremespeed as a revenge killer. I'd say Scrappy (because I love it) but that's freaking nuts. Adaptability maybe? Doesn't hit Ghosts, but it basically negates x2 resistances (which are the only resistances to Normal in OU play; barring Ghosts) and makes it an immediate threat to everything that doesn't resist it. The rest of its movepool also gives it the ability to predict a Ghost and murder it, so that option would make it an even bigger threat. Its frailty and Speed is still an issue though, so it's not broken by any means.

Also remember, this is "NU to OU", not "NU to UU or BL because we think we're too good for the obvious choice that makes it OU". And don't anyone get smart with me and say "Fine, Wonderguard/Magic Guard it then" because you know what I mean. If it's obvious and makes sense aesthetically, go for it. Don't be afraid to take the simple route if it's what needs to be done.

EDIT: I really should have done calcs before mentioning Adaptability (it's a guaranteed OHKO on non-bulky Dragonite after SR; that's scarier than Scizor), but I think my point still stands. I don't think it would be broken thanks to its disadvantages of having no chances but switching in after a KO, but it's quite a gamble. Banded Extremespeed w/ Adaptability does an approximate max of 50% to max HP/max Def Suicune. That's scary. I mean, it doesn't kill anything that resists it or anything bulky, and the current metagame could certainly deal with him, but it makes a team without something to resist him quite hard-pressed to find ways around him as well. No matter what though, I don't think just giving it Extremespeed is quite enough. It needs something else to have an easier time switching in and staying in.

 

[IC3R]

Really, in a metagame half-filled with Steels, resisting Extremespeed should be no difficult task. A good number of those Steels are either faster than or can easily KO Zangoose...

Is the true problem with Zangoose its lack of speed, or its lack of bulk?

 

[UltiMario]

Resisting extremespeed with Adaptability still means X1 extremespeed, and if thats Banded, thats the same as hitting Neutral Extremespeed with STAB w/o adaptability.

 

[Wave⁂]

1. We can't fix Zangoose's vulnerability to priority without changing his stats.

2. I still don't like ExtremeSpeed.

3.
Zangoose @ Toxic Orb
Quick Feet / Jolly
252 Atk / 252 Speed / 4 HP
Facade
Close Combat
Crunch
Swords Dance

 

[UltiMario]

2. I still don't like ExtremeSpeed.

This logic reminds me of the MK debate

 

[Circa]

It's a mixture of the two. His lack of any bulk at all and inability to resist anything but Ghost automatically classifies him as a glass cannon sweeper. Problem is, he also doesn't have the speed that's needed to make a glass cannon sweeper viable. It's much much easier to play around the speed though, so that's the route you have to take.

Like I said UltiMario, it's a gamble. I don't think it's broken and I don't think the metagame would change much, but that's also because I looked at its advantages as well as its disadvantages. One of the plusses to Scizor is that it has the typing as well as enough bulk to get a decent amount of switch-ins AS WELL as revenge kill. Zangoose doesn't have these, so he has to make up for it by being extremely good at the one thing he can do: revenge kill. It makes him a high risk high reward type of Pokemon.

I say Ursaring for the next batch. Should be interesting, seeing as priority doesn't really fit into him aesthetically and he already has great abilities.

EDIT:
@annoying: Like it or hate it, it's the best option. And that set fails to prove he can do anything. Priority comes in and destroys you, and it swims all around OU currently to begin with. That keeps him completely unviable even with Quick Feet.

 

[IC3R]

Give Zangoose an ability that treats every offensive move it uses with +1 priority. WOO!

 

[Wave⁂]

Oh god.

 

[IC3R]

Hahaha!!!

Did I just break it?



One other thing: it doesn't learn Cut for some reason

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Yeah Zangoose can't learn Cut. Weird.

Also I support Annoying's idea.

-Terywuj

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

2. I still don't like ExtremeSpeed.

Aren't we trying to fix them? What does it matter whether or not a certain move fits with a character? If it helps, I say we give it to them.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Zangoose @ Flame Orb / Life Orb
Guts / Adamant
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
~ Swords Dance
~ Extremespeed
~ Close Combat
~ Shadow Claw

-Terywj

 

[CRASHiC]

We'll go with both abilities. I'll write up the changes tommorrow on my day off and reformat the second post. On to our next pokemon.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/lickilicky

why did I even pick this pokemon? I think it needs a new ability, but I'm not sure what. Thick Fat? Scrappy? Basically a new ability is all it needs as its move pool is huge. Does it need any new moves? Too tired to look right now. I'll do a real write up during the reformat tomorrow.

PS. I love you.

EDIT
Actually, I think both of those make him OU now. Does he have a heal move? he could use one. Give him both of that and **** you got a great, versatile pokemon. Hitting Rotom with Explosion? Get out of town! Seriously, I'm scared of him now. ****, that's just what he needs. Or maybe he could use Bibarel's abilities, that would be even more interesting. Actually, I'm excited to talk about him now, just when my head is clear.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

You love whom?

Anyways, Thick Fat could help in the defensive department, where 110 / 95 isn't bad at all. Scrappy or say Unaware makes Lickilicky a more effective offensive threat.

Slack Off could fit as a recovery method, while its already diverse movepool clears up the rest.

-Terywj

 

[CRASHiC]

Is that too much though? I mean, Licky isn't very intimidating right now, but would those 3 changes be too much? Its defense is alright and its offense are barely passable, so it shouldn't be too much. But I'm not sure, guess we'll have to wait to hear critisim from others.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Personally I would say Thick Fat > Scrappy / any other offensive ability, but we'll wait.

-Terywj

 

[Moozle]

I don't think it would be too much. Its stats are all balanced, but none are super high. The abilities you mentioned allow him to take advantage of individual stats, but not really all of them at once. He will be good at a lot of things, but only good, not amazing. I don't think slack off would break lickilicky either. Just my opinion though.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Then say something such as Immunity / Limber, granting him all-around advantage seem more fitting?

-Terywj

 

[CRASHiC]

I never liked either of those abilities in a select few cases, such as Snorlax with immunity. Licky doesn't fear Thunder Wave with that base speed of his.

I like both abilities because Licky can take advantage of both of them very easily and on multiple sets for each ability.

My favorite set for Scrappy:

Sub
Focus Punch
gyro ball
fire blast

Switch in, sub, ****.

Then for Thick Fat
Curse
Slack Off
Return
Explosion

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I wasn't suggesting those moves, more like giving an example to base upon. But I know what you mean.

-Terywj

 

[CRASHiC]

Not much better we could do with this pokemon really. Let's move on, but if anyone has any ideas for this pokemon, feel free to bring it up.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/chatot

Sadly, this is another, why did I pick this pokemon? pokemon. Chatot is an underrated force surely, but it can in no way hang in OU. What it clearly needs is an evolution and I'm not sure what we could do outside giving it new abilities thanks to its good move pool. Its trouble lies in its reliance on Nasty Plot to do almost anything. My suggestion would be to increase its ability to switch in and set up.

Magic Guard

A flying type no longer hurt by stealth rocks, already its switch in has increased. It can now also switch into status effects and the life Orb set no longer hurts its lack of bulk.

 

[Circa]

Its movepool is actually pretty bad. There's a lot you could do to its movepool to make it a force to be reckoned with; abilities aren't entirely needed (although I do agree that a new ability could make it much easier).

I'm almost always opposed to Magic Guard, but in this case I wouldn't be past lacking the logic involved for the aesthetic area.

I would like to mention, however, that whatever gets done to it needs to separate it from other NP'ers in the OU environment. Namely Azelf and Infernape, which are both faster, bulkier, and have a broader movepool than the likes of Chatot. I could see a lot of fixes being required here to make it OU and not just BL.

Same went for Lickilicky, thanks to it being completely outclassed by Snorlax, but I didn't get around to it before you moved on. >.<

 

[CRASHiC]

No no no. Licky is still up for suggestions. Both of these two pokemon are rather boring so they are both up at the same time. any suggestions for either at this time are fine.

Also, Licky is outclassed by Snorlax in a lot of regaurds, which is why I recommended scrappy so that Licky could over come its large weakness to ghost pokemon, which would give it a reason for use over Snorlax

 

[IC3R]

Give Chatot Hydro Pump or Brine, or something Water-based. It's a parrot, which are usually associated with pirates. Pirates are our on sea.

Heatran and Tyranitar problem fix'd.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Chatot could use Magic Guard and Hydro Pump / Water Pulse.

Chatot @ Life Orb
Magic Guard / Modest
4 HP / 252 Sp Atk / 252 Spd
~ Nasty Plot
~ Hyper Voice
~ Heat Wave
~ Hydro Pump

The three "H's" of doom.

-Terywj