Now that generic enemies are on the table, who do you want?

[fogbadge]

Again the problem isn't size. The real issue was that Ridley's in-game designs were very unsuited to being playable. At least they were able to dramatically alter his wings and limbs to make it work, but could they do the same for a guardian?

if they can make piranha plant playable they can make a guardian playable

 

[Quillion]

if they can make piranha plant playable they can make a guardian playable

Okay then, tell me how they can change Guardian's body to be playable.

 

[fogbadge]

Okay then, tell me how they can change Guardian's body to be playable.

shrink it down and reduce its proportions to fit the stage same as ridley

 

[Quillion]

shrink it down and reduce its proportions to fit the stage same as ridley

Do you even know what "proportions" means? Shrinking down is just the easy part. It's just that with the Guardian's wide legspan and wide main body, it can't just be shrunken down.

 

[smashingDoug]

Darknut. They could switch between their two sword styles.

Knuckle joe

Zinger

 

[fogbadge]

Do you even know what "proportions" means? Shrinking down is just the easy part. It's just that with the Guardian's wide legspan and wide main body, it can't just be shrunken down.

tes keeping things within proportion would be to keep everything the same no matter how much bigger or smaller it would be

would it be that hard to reduce its leg length? would its length really effect how it fits on the stage? the chance characters all the time to get them to fit into the game

 

[Quillion]

Darknut. They could switch between their two sword styles.

Knuckle joe

Zinger

The problem with Darknut is that they've vanished from the series since TP. Bokoblin seems more likely since they're the most common villain mooks and they already have an amiibo.

 

[JokalJackal]

Honestly, King Boo and the Slime from Dragon Quest

NOW YOU DON'T HAVE ANY EXCUSE FOR THE BANDANA BOI!

 

[Luigifan18]

I think we need to think of enemies that aren't already represented by another of their race, come to think of it. Why should we have a Koopa when we already have Bowser, after all?

Technically, Bowser is some sort of subrace of Koopa. I like to call it "Royal Koopas".

 

[Quillion]

Technically, Bowser is some sort of subrace of Koopa. I like to call it "Royal Koopas".

That's my headcanon as well, but Bowser can already do anything a regular Koopa can. Is there anything a Koopa can do that Bowser doesn't already?

 

[WolfCypher]

Okay, I'll bite.

Werewolf from any given Castlevania game, why not?

 

[Quillion]

Are third party enemies even allowed at this point? Third party characters need to be special in some way, and enemies don't seem to be on that level.

 

[smashingDoug]

The problem with Darknut is that they've vanished from the series since TP. Bokoblin seems more likely since they're the most common villain mooks and they already have an amiibo.

Well not when darknut is in Smash so that argument goes out the window.

Hell one was in the world of light trailer. Hell he got more screen time then most of the fighters on the roster

And guess what a darknut would be great for the lost of a twilight princess character.

And a darknut doesn’t have an amiibo.
so a new character to sell without any backlash because a dark it amiibo doesn’t already exist.
That’s why I think we didn’t get a gonna as a fighter and instead got piranha plant

 

[Dan]

I want this to be a one-time joke thing that never happens again; it'll probably be inevitable that we get a similar thing if Smash 6 happens.

 

[Quillion]

I want this to be a one-time joke thing that never happens again; it'll probably be inevitable that we get a similar thing if Smash 6 happens.

No way, this is a good thing. They're broadening Smash's horizons by making enemies eligible. And the Plant is definitely going to stick around, it just needs some friends from other series.

 

[Dan]

I'm too straight-laced for you people and your free-thinking.

 

[Dan]

Just wrap up the roster with John Cena and Bugs Bunny why don't you.

 

[GoodGrief741]

No way, this is a good thing. They're broadening Smash's horizons by making enemies eligible. And the Plant is definitely going to stick around, it just needs some friends from other series.

You’re describing the opposite of a good thing.

 

[Dan]

I equated the inclusion of the plant to something impure like casual sex, lol; maybe I care too much, but don't we all?

 

[Quillion]

You’re describing the opposite of a good thing.

 

[Quillion]

Just wrap up the roster with John Cena and Bugs Bunny why don't you.

How did YOU feel about third party characters back in Brawl, then?

 

[Dan]

How did YOU feel about third party characters back in Brawl, then?

Good; Sonic and Snake are not Piranha Plant.

One day I'll let this go...

 

[Quillion]

Good; Sonic and Snake are not Piranha Plant.

One day I'll let this go...

Being ridiculous is just your opinion then.

 

[Cetus]

Trainer Joey. Echo of Pokemon Trainer except all the pokemon are Ratatta, Raticate, and Mega Raticate.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Something about Piranha Plant, Bandana Dee and generic enemies:

Piranha Plant will probably be the only case of generic enemy to fighter. I think that the plant is not intended to be a regular fighter, it's a bonus character, special content for people who preorder the game.
It doesn't appear in the mural, it doesn't appear on the box (assuming that the infamous box from the box theory is the final design), it's just there.
Probably they have chosen a random and unimportant character so that people who buy the game late will still get all the major characters and experience the full game, even without the little bonus that's Piranha Plant.
It's also an unexpected enemy. It's not a Goomba or a Koopa, it's purposely an enemy that makes absolutely no sense to be a fighter, it's that because they wanted to surprise people, it's the real WTF character.
So, I don't think the roster is open to generic enemies yet, IMO Piranha Plant is just a bonus and not the beginning of a new trend. It could have been Sandbag for what we know.

The "problem" is, while the character is absurd, the amount of effort put into it is incredible, the moveset looks very fun and creative, all the moves are very faithful to the source material, it's one of the best crafted characters so far! (but there are a couple of things that bug me: where's the fireball? And, why Petey Piranha has those cages when it's not canon and it was just a Brawl thing? After they changed Giga Bowser to his canon design, I expected other characters to get the same treatment). So, it deserves or not, I don't care anymore, the character seems very fun, the moveset is cool, and I accepted it because of this.

Anyway, I'm not against generic enemies as long as they are iconic and help representing the franchise in a better way.
If I keep thinking, I can find other enemies who could become nice fighters... for example, an Omega Metroid from the Metroid Series (maybe it's a little obscure as a form, but a metroid itself in the roster would make sense given the name of the series, and I know that Dark Samus is one, but she looks nothing like a Metroid).
I mentioned Chef Kawasaki... Chef Kawasaki appears a lot in Kirby games (even though it's mostly in minigames), and usually his appearance is treated differently from those of the other enemies... he even has a theme song! (from Gourmet Race, a minigame where he doesn't even appear but it's still associated to him due to being about food). And, in Japan, they opened resturants (Kirby Cafe) where Chef Kawasaki is a mascotte, and being the chef, it's even more central than Kirby and the Waddle Dees. Chef Kawasaki IMO is something between a main character and a regular enemy, he's a mix of both.
Kamek and Skull Kid are also deserving for their role in their respective games, though I feel like they miss some moveset potential, and I think Kamek works better as a support for other characters than as a fighter himself (in the source games he's often seen powering up enemies and running away, even if there are some bossfights, I think that he being a support for other characters is more iconic to him).

Now about Bandana Dee: my problem with Waddle Dee is not that he's a generic enemy, my problem is that I think he's too generic as a fighter, and it's not because he's a generic enemy, it's more because his signature weapon is just a regular, basic spear, and all what he does is stab with it, in a very basic way (ok, he also used a parasol, but it's still a basic stick-shaped object too, can't do much more than slashes and stabs). Look at how creative Piranha Plant's moveset is...
This is only partially a problem; in the roster, there are already some fighters with generic movesets based on simple and basic actions; such as Little Mac, and the Marths. The problem is, the Kirby series features several characters with unique skills and great moveset potential; Bandana Dee is IMO the least interesting among them, and getting him instead of the other characters is IMO a wasted opportunity for a crazy unique moveset.

Another problem with Bandana Waddle Dee is that he's only one specific iteration of Waddle Dee, and that's limiting IMO.
Look at Piranha Plant once again. It's not one specific version of the plant made into a character, it's the amalgamation of all the iterations of the plant made into one, and it's still called Piranha Plant as the whole species, because it represents all of them (it's not, like, "Fighter Piranha Plant" or something).
I think that if Waddle Dee is ever going to join the roster, it shouldn't be Bandana Waddle Dee, but Waddle Dee in general. Waddle Dees have done countless actions in Kirby games that go way beyond the use of a spear or a parasol. Using Bandana Waddle Dee IMO is just a limitation, especially when you can still represent him as a costume, and also represent Sailor Waddle Dee, Kirby Cafe Waddle Dee, etc.
Also, just like Goomba and several other enemies (Motobug, etc.) Waddle Dee is seen as weak, helpless (excluding exceptions that are obviously just exceptions and not the iconic version of the character).
This is why I once suggested that Waddle Dee as a character whould be a group of Waddle Dees instead of just one.
In a different thread I mentioned a concept, "Waddle Dee Crew", that would consist in a mix between Ice Climbers and Olimar, where you control the leader Waddle Dee (with an hat) and you are followed by 3 more regular Waddle Dees who help you; the moveset would feature the Leader using spears, parasols and other stuff, and the rest of the crew doing some team moves with the leader (mostly specials).
(additional note, I thought of this concept before the Grinch leak existed, this came before the idea of Chorus Kids + Conductor from that "leak", even though it's extremely similar).

So, I'm not against Waddle Dee/s if done right, it's just the concept of Bandana Waddle Dee that people want that I think is wrong, and Piranha Plant (being based on the species in general instead of being a specific iteration of the plant) proves it.
This said, there are countless Kirby characters who I want to see before Waddle Dee, and I'm against the inclusion of Waddle Dee in Smash simply because there are more important and unique characters yet to add before him. Piranha Plant is in Smash, but the Mario series is already well represented, excluding Waluigi and Pauline (who anyway appear in the game in different forms) the Mario series is pretty much complete, only obscure characters and spin-off characters are remaining; it makes sense to add iconic enemies since they have finished the actual characters. Kirby is far from being represented that well (and I fear it will never be as long as Sakurai stays as the director).
Put Adeleine & Ribbon, Marx, Magolor, Chef Kawasaki and Dark Matter in the roster, then we can start discussing about Waddle Dee.

 

[Quillion]

Piranha Plant will probably be the only case of generic enemy to fighter. I think that the plant is not intended to be a regular fighter, it's a bonus character, special content for people who preorder the game.
It doesn't appear in the mural, it doesn't appear on the box (assuming that the infamous box from the box theory is the final design), it's just there.
Probably they have chosen a random and unimportant character so that people who buy the game late will still get all the major characters and experience the full game, even without the little bonus that's Piranha Plant.
It's also an unexpected enemy. It's not a Goomba or a Koopa, it's purposely an enemy that makes absolutely no sense to be a fighter, it's that because they wanted to surprise people, it's the real WTF character.
So, I don't think the roster is open to generic enemies yet, IMO Piranha Plant is just a bonus and not the beginning of a new trend. It could have been Sandbag for what we know.

This certainly may be the case, but the trend about enemies not being playable is officially broken with that one example. Piranha Plant by itself puts enemies officially on the table for Smash, and there's nothing that can be done to reverse this at this point. Remember what Sakurai said about cutting characters?

"Whether it's a minor character or a character that is one of the most highly skilled and most played, if that character is removed from the game, the people who live for that character in Smash Bros. are going to have their feelings hurt."

Next you'll say, "Sheik didn't allow Zelda one-shots", right? The issue with that is that Sheik got in when the criteria for characters wasn't fully developed yet. Since the criteria are very well-developed for Smash at this point in its lifetime, breaking it creates a more permanent change.

Also, can we please stop talking about Bandanna Dee? He's a member of an enemy race, not a generic enemy himself.

 

[fogbadge]

how bout a chum from spaltoon 2?

 

[Eldrake]

If I keep thinking, I can find other enemies who could become nice fighters... for example, an Omega Metroid from the Metroid Series (maybe it's a little obscure as a form, but a metroid itself in the roster would make sense given the name of the series, and I know that Dark Samus is one, but she looks nothing like a Metroid).

That, or a Zeta Metroid if Nintendo feels that an Omega Metroid scaled down to fighter size wouldn't look right. Zeta Metroid would probably be the closest thing to a playable Xenomorph in Smash Bros, with the added difference that it would also spit acid. Given the Alien influence in Metroid, that would be a subtle way to pay tribute to Alien.

 

[Curious Villager]

Eh people have become more open to third parties that barely appeared on any Nintendo consoles after Cloud so mook characters may also become more open in the future. In fact weren't people already supporting things like Slime from Dragon Quest before? (At least during the Smash 4 day's, and was Black mage an enemy? Not too familiar with Final Fantasy but I recalled it being supported too before Cloud) Even Bandana Dee might be a bit more interesting if it was more a regular Waddle Dee that has more universal moves that represents all Waddle Dee's, plus they could do like some of the Pokemon and give it various different headwears along with a bandana as alts rather than just different coloured Bandana's.

I wouldn't mind playing as some of the Zelda enemies such as Dark Nuts or Moblins and all.

That's just me though..

 

[Quillion]

That, or a Zeta Metroid if Nintendo feels that an Omega Metroid scaled down to fighter size wouldn't look right. Zeta Metroid would probably be the closest thing to a playable Xenomorph in Smash Bros, with the added difference that it would also spit acid. Given the Alien influence in Metroid, that would be a subtle way to pay tribute to Alien.

I think Omega Metroid can pass for being Bowser size if need be since their body shape is relatively humanoid. I do prefer Zeta since they look cooler, IMO.

And again, Bandana Dee is off-topic. I want actual generic enemies, not characters built from enemies.

 

[fogbadge]

I wouldn't mind playing as some of the Zelda enemies such as Dark Nuts or Moblins and all.

That's just me though..

its not just you id be up for them as well

 

[Quillion]

its not just you id be up for them as well

I honestly think at this point Zelda enemies have a better chance than the one-shots. At least the former actually appear in multiple games.

 

[fogbadge]

I honestly think at this point Zelda enemies have a better chance than the one-shots. At least the former actually appear in multiple games.

well they never had problems with one shots before but you defiantly have a point

 

[Arcadenik]

I want actual generic enemies, not characters built from enemies.

Slime from Dragon Quest would be perfect! It is the mascot of Dragon Quest!

 

[CrimsonFlash]

3-13 archer, I know that he would be broken but it just needs to happen.

 

[Peridorito]

I don't know if I want any more. Piranha Plant's reveal was amazing because most people tought we couldn't get playable mooks. A second one wouldn't have the same impact.

 

[Dreamking]

First, I would have chosen Hammer Bros over Piranha Plant if we were to get a Mario enemy as a playable character. Second, my top playable mook choice would have been Primid. I think it would have been a good segue into the World of Light segment.

Moblin would be nice to see as playable. I would base his appearance on the classic bulldog look which was last seen in Ocarina of Time I believe.

I also agree that the Piranha Plant clause has boosted the chances of Zelda enemies to be playable before singular characters.

 

[Quillion]

well they never had problems with one shots before but you defiantly have a point

There's no problem with series that are built around one-shots like Pokémon and Fire Emblem, but Zelda isn't that kind of series.

I don't know if I want any more. Piranha Plant's reveal was amazing because most people tought we couldn't get playable mooks. A second one wouldn't have the same impact.

A second one wouldn't have the same impact, but only because Piranha Plant busted the door down and now other enemies are on the table.

 

[fogbadge]

There's no problem with series that are built around one-shots like Pokémon and Fire Emblem, but Zelda isn't that kind of series.

i was thinking of shiek and pitoo

pokemon isnt built around one shots

 

[Quillion]

i was thinking of shiek and pitoo

pokemon isnt built around one shots

I know Dark Pit is technically a one-shot, but he is likely to reappear if the Kid Icarus Uprising series continues.

Sheik is just an artifact from before the "no Zelda one-shot" rule was created.