Noob nonsense Mechanics Q

[BTmoney]

Can anyone back up why Fox is so much easier to play in PM than he is in Melee quantitatively and definitively (i.e. with numbers)?

Did the PM Staff literally make his jump squat have more frames or is it because of the way you interact with the ground in PM that is not exactly how it is Melee (I have been told you leave the ground 1 frame later all around in PM or something like that)?

But then I get confused because even things like double lasering are easier in PM. I get much tighter spreads (as in the rising laser and the second falling laser will come out closer to the same level).

If it's mental then I'll make myself get over it. If it's a frame thing then I'll have to adjust to it and play faster in Melee. I am the type of person who needs to know what the problem is before I commit to a solution.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The only thing I know of that would make Fox easier to use is that the window to SH input is one frame longer universally. The Jumpsquat is the same length, but the register window for the SH is easier.

 

[BTmoney]

The only thing I know of that would make Fox easier to use is that the window to SH input is one frame longer universally. The Jumpsquat is the same length, but the register window for the SH is easier.

So essentially and possibly all of my Melee Fox woes/johns are due to missing SH's occasionally by holding jump 1 frame too long or trying to waveshine and being 1 frame off. That 1 frame makes a huge difference imo. I can barely apply shield pressure/waveshine in Melee and it's not a problem in PM. It's black and white for me. I guess the 1 additional frame of jump squat also gives me a frame of slack (to move from Y to B) when I SHDL.

So I guess it's the 1 frame and my negative attitude on Melee Fox compounding each other because 1 frame probably should not be besting me as often as it does. If that is the case.

If there are any other known mechanical differences I'd like to know those as well (like dash dance lengths). I think what you said is the whole truth however (other than the notion that PM generally feels slower but I don't know if other people feel that way or if there is any merit to that).

Btw I appreciate your consistent, good, and logical posts. Just something to add since you're one of the people who I stop and read.

 

[Kink-Link5]

It's not an additional frame of jumpsquat, it is an additional frame to release jump and still get a SH. Jumpsquat and all things related to it (Being counted as on the ground, being able to JC Grab, etc) are still frame exact to Melee. The window to SHL is still identical to Melee, it's just easier to do the SH.

And thanks much, I appreciate people appreciating me

 

[Doctor X]

Additionally if you have tap-jump on, the C-stick up on the ground inputs a jump as in Brawl, resulting in an automatic JC upsmash. Not a big deal but it reduces the number of inputs he needs to make to, say, upsmash from a dash.

I never had problems with this in Melee historically, but now that I've begun to rely on it in PM I miss this crap all the time when I switch back. >.<

 

[BTmoney]

Yeah the JC thing kills me. I go through the same exact thing lol.

 

[Badge]

Actually, SHDL is a 3 frame window in Melee and a 5 frame window in Project:M due to jump physics not being 100% exact and the laser coming out one frame sooner.

Soonest and latest possible SHDL comparison. The Melee version is 3, respectively 1 frame shorter.

 

[BTmoney]

Actually, SHDL is a 3 frame window in Melee and a 5 frame window in Project:M due to jump physics not being 100% exact and the laser coming out one frame sooner.

Soonest and latest possible SHDL comparison. The Melee version is 3, respectively 1 frame shorter.

I don't know what your motivation is for being so clutch but thank you. I had a feeling I wasn't crazy.

And is that saying you have 3 frames to move from Y to B (I use those buttons) in melee and 5 frames in PM?

 

[Strong Badam]

There isn't actually an additional frame of jumpsquat or anything, but there's a frame after you jump where you're just kind of floating and haven't moved yet that doesn't occur in Melee, and jumps were compensated to go the same distance due to that. Because of that, it makes SDHL have a higher frame window among other things across the cast. It's not intentional, and if we can we intend to fix it.

 

[BTmoney]

There isn't actually an additional frame of jumpsquat or anything, but there's a frame after you jump where you're just kind of floating and haven't moved yet that doesn't occur in Melee, and jumps were compensated to go the same distance due to that. Because of that, it makes SDHL have a higher frame window among other things across the cast. It's not intentional, and if we can we intend to fix it.

The last part is the answer I wanted to hear

 

[CyberZixx]

I find technical stuff easier to pull of in this in general than melee. I guess this explains it all. Helps me get used to doing them for when it is reverted back to melee. It is surprising how much difference one frame can make. The game feels more floaty as a result.

 

[Spiffykins]

There isn't actually an additional frame of jumpsquat or anything, but there's a frame after you jump where you're just kind of floating and haven't moved yet that doesn't occur in Melee, and jumps were compensated to go the same distance due to that. Because of that, it makes SDHL have a higher frame window among other things across the cast. It's not intentional, and if we can we intend to fix it.

So is there any reason not to further compensate by making jump start last one frame less, or...? Was Kink incorrect in saying that the SH window is longer?

 

[Magus420]

Making jump squat 1 less to offset the additional air frame (which would still be there) breaks more than it fixes. It'd change WD timing, reduce JC grab window, allow aerials/etc 1 frame faster from the ground, etc. All of which currently match.

SH input window has nothing to do with what Strong Bad was talking about btw. Melee checks if you've released jump on the last frame of jump startup (3 for Fox), while brawl/PM check if you let go as you leave the ground (4 for Fox). Fox's jump startup is 3 regardless. Strong Bad is talking about the delayed effect of momentum. Melee you enter the air on 4 and also move up from the jump at the same time, brawl/pm you enter the air on 4 but dont start to move up until 5. That delay in movement adds a frame of air time (one that's lower to the ground than existed in melee).

C-stick u-smash in dash and run is actually an instant boost smash not a JC u-smash. If you remove the u-smash change action within dash attack's coding c-stick up does a dash attack.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Actually, SHDL is a 3 frame window in Melee and a 5 frame window in Project:M due to jump physics not being 100% exact and the laser coming out one frame sooner.

Soonest and latest possible SHDL comparison. The Melee version is 3, respectively 1 frame shorter.

Does this also explain why Falco's laser's are mad high?

 

[standardtoaster]

The timing for fast falling in brawl is slightly different than melee, that's why