No Depth? (Oh please...)

[Mama]

Its ridiculous how many of the so called pro Smashers are crying over the loss of something like wave dashing and the reduced lag (or automatic L-canceling if you don't like making any sense lol). In a sense you're judging the depth of a lake by looking at the surface and not even bothering to wait and see for yourself.

Melee was a deep fighter. But that depth was discovered/created by the players. Its been around for a long time. If you were to somehow remove wave dashing from Melee I'd be upset regardless of how important it was to me. (really just used it for spacing and mind games) because thats what I was used to....IN MELEE. Same as the character mechanics. If they made some fast fallers "floatier" then I'd be upset because thats what I was used to....IN MELEE. If the changed directional air dodging up ....well I think you get the point now.

So many people are stuck using Melee as a measuring stick. Judging everything off of Melee standards and scared of the possible loss of Melee's depth. But they're forgetting that this is not Melee. This is Brawl. Nobody has touched the finished project. We have only seen a demo of the game. When we get our hands on the real thing then and only then will we be able to see how deep Brawl will be. It is not Melee. What people think added all the depth to Melee (only thing really gone is wave dashing/directional air dodgin so I really don't get this loss of depth argument) isn't going to be important in Brawl.

So stop acting like you know for a fact that Smash is losing its depth when all you have to go on is Melee's version of it. By claiming so you only show how close minded you are. Unwilling to accept the way things are. That sounds awfully similar to a scrub if you ask me.

Does the lack of an advanced technique mean that the scrubs should rejoice and that pros should lament? No it certainly does not. The real pros will simply discover new advanced techniques and new things that add depth to Brawl. The scrubs will probably be just as upset as they are over wave dashing in Melee and cause some things to be over rated but if they choose not to follow the meta game then they'll remain scrubs.

EDIT : And stop thinking that Brawl can't be competitive. Anything with a vs mode can be competitive and where there is competition there will be people who take it to another level and set the pace for the rest of us.

 

[yoshi_fan]

Its ridiculous how many of the so called pro Smashers are crying over the loss of something like wave dashing and the reduced lag (or automatic L-canceling if you don't like making any sense lol). In a sense you're judging the depth of a lake by looking at the surface and not even bothering to wait and see for yourself.

Melee was a deep fighter. But that depth was discovered/created by the players. Its been around for a long time. If you were to somehow remove wave dashing from Melee I'd be upset regardless of how important it was to me. (really just used it for spacing and mind games) because thats what I was used to....IN MELEE. Same as the character mechanics. If they made some fast fallers "floatier" then I'd be upset because thats what I was used to....IN MELEE. If the changed directional air dodging up ....well I think you get the point now.

So many people are stuck using Melee as a measuring stick. Judging everything off of Melee standards and scared of the possible loss of Melee's depth. But they're forgetting that this is not Melee. This is Brawl. Nobody has touched the finished project. We have only seen a demo of the game. When we get our hands on the real thing then and only then will we be able to see how deep Brawl will be. It is not Melee. What people think added all the depth to Melee (only thing really gone is wave dashing/directional air dodgin so I really don't get this loss of depth argument) isn't going to be important in Brawl.

So stop acting like you know for a fact that Smash is losing its depth when all you have to go on is Melee's version of it. By claiming so you only show how close minded you are. Unwilling to accept the way things are. That sounds awfully similar to a scrub if you ask me.

Does the lack of an advanced technique mean that the scrubs should rejoice and that pros should lament? No it certainly does not. The real pros will simply discover new advanced techniques and new things that add depth to Brawl. The scrubs will probably be just as upset as they are over wave dashing in Melee and cause some things to be over rated but if they choose not to follow the meta game then they'll remain scrubs.

AGREED 100%

Really, greatest post ever... but i think you will get flamed from both sides. Be careful

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

Amen to that brother (sister?)

 

[Darkurai]

Its ridiculous how many of the so called pro Smashers are crying over the loss of something like wave dashing and the reduced lag (or automatic L-canceling if you don't like making any sense lol). In a sense you're judging the depth of a lake by looking at the surface and not even bothering to wait and see for yourself.

Melee was a deep fighter. But that depth was discovered/created by the players. Its been around for a long time. If you were to somehow remove wave dashing from Melee I'd be upset regardless of how important it was to me. (really just used it for spacing and mind games) because thats what I was used to....IN MELEE. Same as the character mechanics. If they made some fast fallers "floatier" then I'd be upset because thats what I was used to....IN MELEE. If the changed directional air dodging up ....well I think you get the point now.

So many people are stuck using Melee as a measuring stick. Judging everything off of Melee standards and scared of the possible loss of Melee's depth. But they're forgetting that this is not Melee. This is Brawl. Nobody has touched the finished project. We have only seen a demo of the game. When we get our hands on the real thing then and only then will we be able to see how deep Brawl will be. It is not Melee. What people think added all the depth to Melee (only thing really gone is wave dashing/directional air dodgin so I really don't get this loss of depth argument) isn't going to be important in Brawl.

So stop acting like you know for a fact that Smash is losing its depth when all you have to go on is Melee's version of it. By claiming so you only show how close minded you are. Unwilling to accept the way things are. That sounds awfully similar to a scrub if you ask me.

Does the lack of an advanced technique mean that the scrubs should rejoice and that pros should lament? No it certainly does not. The real pros will simply discover new advanced techniques and new things that add depth to Brawl. The scrubs will probably be just as upset as they are over wave dashing in Melee and cause some things to be over rated but if they choose not to follow the meta game then they'll remain scrubs.

EDIT : And stop thinking that Brawl can't be competitive. Anything with a vs mode can be competitive and where there is competition there will be people who take it to another level and set the pace for the rest of us.

You are my new deity.

 

[Speedsk8er]

It's like word porn....

Great post.

 

[F@lc0-san]

Its ridiculous how many of the so called pro Smashers are crying over the loss of something like wave dashing and the reduced lag (or automatic L-canceling if you don't like making any sense lol). In a sense you're judging the depth of a lake by looking at the surface and not even bothering to wait and see for yourself.

Melee was a deep fighter. But that depth was discovered/created by the players. Its been around for a long time. If you were to somehow remove wave dashing from Melee I'd be upset regardless of how important it was to me. (really just used it for spacing and mind games) because thats what I was used to....IN MELEE. Same as the character mechanics. If they made some fast fallers "floatier" then I'd be upset because thats what I was used to....IN MELEE. If the changed directional air dodging up ....well I think you get the point now.

So many people are stuck using Melee as a measuring stick. Judging everything off of Melee standards and scared of the possible loss of Melee's depth. But they're forgetting that this is not Melee. This is Brawl. Nobody has touched the finished project. We have only seen a demo of the game. When we get our hands on the real thing then and only then will we be able to see how deep Brawl will be. It is not Melee. What people think added all the depth to Melee (only thing really gone is wave dashing/directional air dodgin so I really don't get this loss of depth argument) isn't going to be important in Brawl.

So stop acting like you know for a fact that Smash is losing its depth when all you have to go on is Melee's version of it. By claiming so you only show how close minded you are. Unwilling to accept the way things are. That sounds awfully similar to a scrub if you ask me.

Does the lack of an advanced technique mean that the scrubs should rejoice and that pros should lament? No it certainly does not. The real pros will simply discover new advanced techniques and new things that add depth to Brawl. The scrubs will probably be just as upset as they are over wave dashing in Melee and cause some things to be over rated but if they choose not to follow the meta game then they'll remain scrubs.

EDIT : And stop thinking that Brawl can't be competitive. Anything with a vs mode can be competitive and where there is competition there will be people who take it to another level and set the pace for the rest of us.

And another one where the WIN is strong with.

 

[BMWfalco]

It ridiculous to expect people to not compare a sequel to it's predecessor. We're all here because we love Melee so much, of course we're going to be drawing comparisons.

 

[GaryCXJk]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=121356

Read it plox.

Most tourney players don't even care jack about wavedashing. There will be other advanced techs to make them stand above you. Now there are no Johns when you little suckers get beaten by them.

 

[Mama]

It ridiculous to expect people to not compare a sequel to it's predecessor. We're all here because we love Melee so much, of course we're going to be drawing comparisons.

Theres a difference between comparing and judging. A lot of people are judging aspects of the game based on their knowledge of Melee. If you simply say "oh thats different" thats comparing. If you say "oh thats different and because of that this game is garbage" then you have transcended mere comparisons and are now judging.

All I'm asking is for people to keep a clear head in this transition from Melee to Brawl. Keep your heads up and stop getting all down in the dumps at the slightest change because truth be told the Smash community is very creative. We take what we're given and adapt around it. Some people are so locked in the Melee game that they don't see this. I want to open their eyes.

EDIT : And I'm a dude (black guy hehe) I just main Peach. Mama is short for...mammaries lol. You'd have to see my Peach drawing to get the joke.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=121356

Read it plox.

Most tourney players don't even care jack about wavedashing. There will be other advanced techs to make them stand above you. Now there are no Johns when you little suckers get beaten by them.

Go back and real my whole post please. Don't wear your IQ on your sleeve lol. I'm referring to posters here like Mew2King (of all people. i was the most shocked at him) and a few others.

 

[MetaKnight0]

If Ink Drop lives up to the hype and can actually cancel into several things then we already have a replacement for wavedash.

 

[GaryCXJk]

Like I said, no Johns for Brawl.

 

[SmashChu]

Thank you! Agreed fully with the post. Maybe this will end them. Maybe........................right?

 

[Xengri]

Its ridiculous how many of the so called pro Smashers are crying over the loss of something like wave dashing and the reduced lag (or automatic L-canceling if you don't like making any sense lol). In a sense you're judging the depth of a lake by looking at the surface and not even bothering to wait and see for yourself.

Melee was a deep fighter. But that depth was discovered/created by the players. Its been around for a long time. If you were to somehow remove wave dashing from Melee I'd be upset regardless of how important it was to me. (really just used it for spacing and mind games) because thats what I was used to....IN MELEE. Same as the character mechanics. If they made some fast fallers "floatier" then I'd be upset because thats what I was used to....IN MELEE. If the changed directional air dodging up ....well I think you get the point now.

So many people are stuck using Melee as a measuring stick. Judging everything off of Melee standards and scared of the possible loss of Melee's depth. But they're forgetting that this is not Melee. This is Brawl. Nobody has touched the finished project. We have only seen a demo of the game. When we get our hands on the real thing then and only then will we be able to see how deep Brawl will be. It is not Melee. What people think added all the depth to Melee (only thing really gone is wave dashing/directional air dodgin so I really don't get this loss of depth argument) isn't going to be important in Brawl.

So stop acting like you know for a fact that Smash is losing its depth when all you have to go on is Melee's version of it. By claiming so you only show how close minded you are. Unwilling to accept the way things are. That sounds awfully similar to a scrub if you ask me.

Does the lack of an advanced technique mean that the scrubs should rejoice and that pros should lament? No it certainly does not. The real pros will simply discover new advanced techniques and new things that add depth to Brawl. The scrubs will probably be just as upset as they are over wave dashing in Melee and cause some things to be over rated but if they choose not to follow the meta game then they'll remain scrubs.

EDIT : And stop thinking that Brawl can't be competitive. Anything with a vs mode can be competitive and where there is competition there will be people who take it to another level and set the pace for the rest of us.

Logic? On these boards?

Seriously nice post. If only more people could think this way, but sadly most won't.

 

[Lightsaberboy]

meh, if it's not in it, i bet someone's gonn find out some other new advanced technique to use instead.

 

[Mama]

Like I said, no Johns for Brawl.

Lol tell that to Mew2King and the other pros that just can't get with it.

I've been playing competitively for 2 years. I've gotten used to the way Melee plays and the way Peach's and Ganondorf's moves work but that doesn't mean I'll be unwilling to seek out new techniques and things. I've accepted that this is going to be something different but there are a few people out there that don't.

And no Johns for posting.

meh, if it's not in it, i bet someone's gonn find out some other new advanced technique to use instead.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were more advanced techniques in Brawl than Melee ever had. The Dash cancel (or Ink Drop if you prefer) is already something that seems pretty cool.

 

[Mama]

I bump therefore I am.

 

[Zankoku]

The OP is correct.

Agreement acquired!

 

[Maricalistaro]

I once knew a dude who played Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Tournament Fighters competitevly. I mean cmon if you can play that competitevly than...

 

[Mikagami]

Thank you Mama. That is all.

 

[Sandwich]

I was about to pull up the "beating a dead horse" autopost but this is in fact, win.
Mama should be made ultramod. Immediately.

 

[SolidSonic]

I was about to pull up the "beating a dead horse" autopost but this is in fact, win.
Mama should be made ultramod. Immediately.

I didn't know this board even had moderators. I mean they try and get people to pay just to post here, but don't moderate worth a crap. Thats why there are 30x wave dashing whining threads.

 

[Byron X]

Mama FTW!!!

 

[mezbomber]

Seriously, people need to stop taking things so seriously.

I really liked this board when I didn't have to scroll through page after page of topics to find something that wasn't complaing/interpreting/praising/etc. the removal of some techniques.

this is ridiculous.

 

[Doggalina]

If Ink Drop lives up to the hype and can actually cancel into several things then we already have a replacement for wavedash.

Agreed. The game's not even out yet and we already have a new advanced tech.

 

[Zankoku]

I didn't know this board even had moderators. I mean they try and get people to pay just to post here, but don't moderate worth a crap. Thats why there are 30x wave dashing whining threads.

Brawl discussion boards are relatively new. There's plenty of moderation in the regular boards (Melee Discussion, Pool Room, Bowser Character Specific, to name a few) and people initially thought assigning two mods and having some supermods would be enough. Clearly the huge number of new people will not be governed by so few, however...

 

[Stormkeeper]

Although I was hoping the WD would have been included in Brawl, I was not anticipating it or expecting it. I agree with the OP on many instances. It's just a fact that WD is gone and we need to get over it.

However, there are some other things to consider. Mama, you indicated that you play Peach and Ganon, both of whom don't really utilize WD as much as other characters do so removal of WD is less of a blow. Being a Fox and Doc player myself, WD is absolutely integral in my playstyle as it opens so many doors in both mindgames and tactical play. I use WD constantly during a match because it removes so many barriers of movement, spacing and overall control. Now that's it's gone I find myself debating whether or not I'll want to play Fox -- not because I automatically think he'll be crap without WD (although it's crossed my mind), but because his playstyle will be completely different.

Imagine if they removed Peach's floating ability. Think of all the options you just lost. No more float cancelling, less flexibility on recovery, not more floating mind games etc. It would change Peach's play style significantly. It's a tactic that Peach players are constantly using so it would be something to think about if it wasn't there.

This is why I think so many players are crying -- simple loss of options from a familiar playstyle.

PS Can someone fill this poor noob in on what an Ink Drop is?

 

[Cojiro]

Seriously, people need to stop taking things so seriously.

I really liked this board when I didn't have to scroll through page after page of topics to find something that wasn't complaing/interpreting/praising/etc. the removal of some techniques.

this is ridiculous.

Indeed. I truly believe that this is a really good, strong community that believes in having fun and pushing the competitive nature of the SSB series. I do think that this strength is being undermined by people who refuse to let go of a certain play style.

Brawl will be different, and it will be deep. Exploring and extending that depth is a large responsibility of the players playing.

 

[Master Peach]

This is a new game. Why can't people realize this. Plus the game is not made to please only one person. It's for everyone. Were already coming up with new advanced techs. This is not Melee 2.0 people, It's brawl, so get over it. (In regards to those who complain.)

 

[2.72]

I was about to pull up the "beating a dead horse" autopost but this is in fact, win.
Mama should be made ultramod. Immediately.

Agreed. It's nice that someone breathed some life back into our dear horse. Of course, the next person to wander along will probably not be so kind.

-2.72

 

[Glinth]

God Topic TBH

 

[Noypi_GjD]

This is a new game. Obviously
Why can't people realize this.Generalization of 'people,' name someone who still thinks this is melee
Plus the game is not made to please only one person. It's for everyone. Duh
Were already coming up with new advanced techs.Obviously
This is not Melee 2.0 people, It's brawl, so get over it.What is "it," we cannot just judge the game from a couple previews/impressions and the game's name -.-;;; its going to take a while to see if the changes are for the better, eg. guilty gear isuka was fail.
(In regards to those who complain.)

If the point of this thread was to point out the game is "not going to be like melee" than its just continuing to beat the dead horse -.-;; nothing new sorry...I don't think many people claimed that the game would have no more depth.

 

[AKC12]

Its ridiculous how many of the so called pro Smashers are crying over the loss of something like wave dashing and the reduced lag (or automatic L-canceling if you don't like making any sense lol). In a sense you're judging the depth of a lake by looking at the surface and not even bothering to wait and see for yourself.

Melee was a deep fighter. But that depth was discovered/created by the players. Its been around for a long time. If you were to somehow remove wave dashing from Melee I'd be upset regardless of how important it was to me. (really just used it for spacing and mind games) because thats what I was used to....IN MELEE. Same as the character mechanics. If they made some fast fallers "floatier" then I'd be upset because thats what I was used to....IN MELEE. If the changed directional air dodging up ....well I think you get the point now.

So many people are stuck using Melee as a measuring stick. Judging everything off of Melee standards and scared of the possible loss of Melee's depth. But they're forgetting that this is not Melee. This is Brawl. Nobody has touched the finished project. We have only seen a demo of the game. When we get our hands on the real thing then and only then will we be able to see how deep Brawl will be. It is not Melee. What people think added all the depth to Melee (only thing really gone is wave dashing/directional air dodgin so I really don't get this loss of depth argument) isn't going to be important in Brawl.

So stop acting like you know for a fact that Smash is losing its depth when all you have to go on is Melee's version of it. By claiming so you only show how close minded you are. Unwilling to accept the way things are. That sounds awfully similar to a scrub if you ask me.

Does the lack of an advanced technique mean that the scrubs should rejoice and that pros should lament? No it certainly does not. The real pros will simply discover new advanced techniques and new things that add depth to Brawl. The scrubs will probably be just as upset as they are over wave dashing in Melee and cause some things to be over rated but if they choose not to follow the meta game then they'll remain scrubs.

EDIT : And stop thinking that Brawl can't be competitive. Anything with a vs mode can be competitive and where there is competition there will be people who take it to another level and set the pace for the rest of us.

QFT
The complainers will be the one johning all the time unless they accept that this is a different game, not MELEE 2.0

 

[Silfa]

Its ridiculous how many of the so called pro Smashers are crying over the loss of something like wave dashing and the reduced lag (or automatic L-canceling if you don't like making any sense lol). In a sense you're judging the depth of a lake by looking at the surface and not even bothering to wait and see for yourself.

Melee was a deep fighter. But that depth was discovered/created by the players. Its been around for a long time. If you were to somehow remove wave dashing from Melee I'd be upset regardless of how important it was to me. (really just used it for spacing and mind games) because thats what I was used to....IN MELEE. Same as the character mechanics. If they made some fast fallers "floatier" then I'd be upset because thats what I was used to....IN MELEE. If the changed directional air dodging up ....well I think you get the point now.

So many people are stuck using Melee as a measuring stick. Judging everything off of Melee standards and scared of the possible loss of Melee's depth. But they're forgetting that this is not Melee. This is Brawl. Nobody has touched the finished project. We have only seen a demo of the game. When we get our hands on the real thing then and only then will we be able to see how deep Brawl will be. It is not Melee. What people think added all the depth to Melee (only thing really gone is wave dashing/directional air dodgin so I really don't get this loss of depth argument) isn't going to be important in Brawl.

So stop acting like you know for a fact that Smash is losing its depth when all you have to go on is Melee's version of it. By claiming so you only show how close minded you are. Unwilling to accept the way things are. That sounds awfully similar to a scrub if you ask me.

Does the lack of an advanced technique mean that the scrubs should rejoice and that pros should lament? No it certainly does not. The real pros will simply discover new advanced techniques and new things that add depth to Brawl. The scrubs will probably be just as upset as they are over wave dashing in Melee and cause some things to be over rated but if they choose not to follow the meta game then they'll remain scrubs.

EDIT : And stop thinking that Brawl can't be competitive. Anything with a vs mode can be competitive and where there is competition there will be people who take it to another level and set the pace for the rest of us.

Once again, QFT. Awesome post, I completely agree with you.

+Respect!

 

[GaryCXJk]

QFT
The complainers will be the one johning all the time unless they accept that this is a different game, not MELEE 2.0

The ones who are Johning are the ones who blame wavedashing on their loss, or on the fact that they are called scrubs.

 

[Mama]

Although I was hoping the WD would have been included in Brawl, I was not anticipating it or expecting it. I agree with the OP on many instances. It's just a fact that WD is gone and we need to get over it.

However, there are some other things to consider. Mama, you indicated that you play Peach and Ganon, both of whom don't really utilize WD as much as other characters do so removal of WD is less of a blow. Being a Fox and Doc player myself, WD is absolutely integral in my playstyle as it opens so many doors in both mindgames and tactical play. I use WD constantly during a match because it removes so many barriers of movement, spacing and overall control. Now that's it's gone I find myself debating whether or not I'll want to play Fox -- not because I automatically think he'll be crap without WD (although it's crossed my mind), but because his playstyle will be completely different.

Imagine if they removed Peach's floating ability. Think of all the options you just lost. No more float cancelling, less flexibility on recovery, not more floating mind games etc. It would change Peach's play style significantly. It's a tactic that Peach players are constantly using so it would be something to think about if it wasn't there.

This is why I think so many players are crying -- simple loss of options from a familiar playstyle.

PS Can someone fill this poor noob in on what an Ink Drop is?

Well actually my brother plays as Fox. I play him almost daily since we both live in the same house still. In my opinion though he's almost too good with Fox lol but in a good keep me on my toes sort of way. Therefore I know how Fox works. He does use wave dashing a lot. Like for triangle jumping and wave shining. When I broke the news to him he didn't even ask why he just said. "Oh that sucks. It was pretty fun." Basically saying he'd be able to move on. He surprised me on how open minded he was but then again his personality is more of a do what it takes than a do what they do sort of thing. On top of that we're both huge Sonic fans since childhood. If Fox doesn't work out he'll have a new character to fall back on. I think a lot of us do.

Some of us may have had our characters changed from the way they are now but I'm going to stay hopeful and see how mine fair in Melee. From what I heard Float canceling and jump canceling for Peach are still present. Also the auto float is still in so floating mind games will still be present. I heard that Peach's aerials have been boosted and her side B is now more useful. In this case the good seems to out weigh the bad seeing as how I rely a lot on mind games and turnips. We should all try to keep our chins up.

If the point of this thread was to point out the game is "not going to be like melee" than its just continuing to beat the dead horse -.-;; nothing new sorry...I don't think many people claimed that the game would have no more depth.

Why don't you read the post? Its not that hard. The least you can do is read the first post (entirely) rather than the impressions. And a hit in what you'll find : No its not just about Brawl being a new game. Its also to address the people who were worried about the depth of the game. And you'd know there were a lot if you were here. (look for Mew2Kings thread.)

 

[Red Exodus]

This is getting old. Fast.

 

[0rion]

YEEAAAHH! Mama owns!!

Pros/ causal players alike who whine and cry and cry and weep some more over one little itty bitsy little tech move *coughcoughwavedashincoughcough aren't real smashers at heart. There one trick ponys thats what they are! True Smash Fanatics will find out and discover new and better ways to own the competition!

So yeah, for all you whiners out there, get off you Melee 2.0 soapbox!! End of novel!

 

[Tony_]

Make the OP a mod immediately.

 

[Lunytunes4.4]

im not really upset about this. i mean in about 2 days? we already found ink drop or whatever so im sure we will find more stuff when we all get our hands on this game

 

[Noypi_GjD]

YEEAAAHH! Mama owns!!

Pros/ causal players alike who whine and cry and cry and weep some more over one little itty bitsy little tech move *coughcoughwavedashincoughcough aren't real smashers at heart. This is a generalization... I don't weep because of the removal a few advance techniques. I'm disappointed that noobies keep claiming that ALL pros need the wavedash to win, hardly, those who are to afraid to jump into the competitive will still be punished by those who got the dedication to improve.

There one trick ponys thats what they are!1 trick ponies huh? its that because they also know how to L-cancel, DI, crouch cancel, short hop, fast fall, ledge jump, JCG, edgeguard, shine..etc

True Smash Fanatics will find out and discover new and better ways to own the competition!
hahah, isn't that what wavedashers did, they went to discover a technique and incorporated it into their game to own the competition, dedication is looked down upon these 'new' users aren't they.

So yeah, for all you whiners out there, get off you Melee 2.0 soapbox!! End of novel!I enjoy how you continue to rejoice this idea that the advance technique users have been owned, we haven't.

Are we forgetting that the wavedash made characters playable such as Ice Climbers and Luigi