Social NintenZone Social 5 - Thanks, Everyone

[praline]

Hinoka seems pretty pointless. She seemingly plays exactly like Cordelia outside of a couple attacks.

 

[ChikoLad]

Hinoka seems pretty pointless. She seemingly plays exactly like Cordelia outside of a couple attacks.

Funny thing is that Hinoka actually came first in development.

Cordelia is the clone.

 

[Aurane]

When my cat eats too quickly she throws up

I have to divide food up in the day

I'm thinking my cat is sick. Probably has a stomach ache.

Just gotta be more gentle with her is all.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

X seems pretty pointless. They seemingly play exactly like Y outside of a couple attacks.

I feel like something like this can be said for a FE:W characters in that game...

I'm not sorry

 

[allison]

Gangreldorf
The Water Emblem
Dark Marth

*Darth Marth

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I mean you're not exactly an authority on who is or isn't iconic.

You haven't even outlined what you define as an iconic in this case. You haven't given people an angle to work with. So really, doesn't matter who people say, you just say "lol no" in response because those responses don't fit the agenda of your own argument or because you haven't played a specific game.

FE is going to have skewed definitions on this either way. As a franchise, it isn't iconic in the same way Mario or Zelda are. The only characters in the entire series who are TRULY iconic period are those in Smash, and Anna (even Lyn could be argued as just being a fan favourite). For anything else, you have to look into the context of the fandom or the franchise itself, and even then, the waters are murky due to some games being Japan exclusive. A lot of people have played those games anyway, but a lot also haven't, particularly newer fans.

So you can't really treat it like Mario or Zelda or Sonic or something.

All that really should matter are the fan favourites for a game like this anyway. The truly iconic characters should be a requirement. A baseline. FE Warriors didn't even achieve this due to the scummy "lol give us your money first then we'll make another game with those obvious additions, maybe" mentality.

Actually I was using the popularity poll.

Arvis and Lyon don't even break the top 100.

Black Knight did, which was why I said he was.

 

[A Distant Demon]

I disagree, Mystery of the Emblem is the most successful game in the franchise in Japan, not even Awakening and Fates have toppled it yet, and its story is what set the precedent for future villains like Zephiel, Nergal, and Loptyr. Additionally, those characters are usually tapped into whenever FE does a spinoff such as with TMS where Medeus and Gharnef shown up in important roles.

You can say a lot of things about those villains, but not being iconic isn't one of them. Those villains are drawn from for a reason and they'll continue to be drawn from until their archetype is thrown out for another popular choice.

well here is the important detail

in Japan

FE is an international series now

Those villains are drawn from for a reason and they'll continue to be drawn from until their archetype is thrown out for another popular choice.

Being drawn from does not make those characters more iconic. Jagens dont make jagen more iconic. They make the arcehtype more iconic (barely, if at all). No one is able to more easily recognize or like Jagen because Frederick exists.

 

[praline]

Now hopefully for FE Warriors 2 they choose the better games and have the focus on Path of Radiance/Radiant Dawn, Binding Blade/Blazing Sword and Sacred Stones

 

[Swamp Sensei]

They should use the best Fire Emblem game.

OG Gaiden.

Not SoV.

Just Gaiden.

 

[ChikoLad]

Actually I was using the popularity poll.

Arvis and Lyon don't even break the top 100.

Black Knight did, which was why I said he was.

A popularity poll doesn't represent how iconic anyone is though, other than the obvious choices.

That poll was strictly voted on by the fandom. People could also vote multiple times. Was just talking to someone about this today where they said they voted for Lucina 90+ times.

 

[A Distant Demon]

They should use the best Fire Emblem game.

OG Gaiden.

Not SoV.

Just Gaiden.

Can't wait to Alm to slap someone with his GIANT. . .codpiece

 

[Arcanir]

well here is the important detail

FE is an international series now

It doesn't change the facts, the game is essentially FE's Super Metroid, it's the one that carries the most influence throughout the franchise. The storytelling structure, the archetypes, mechanics and other elements are drawn from that game and it set the precedent for how future games in the franchise are developed. Without it, FE would likely be a different franchise then it is now and its influence shouldn't be downplayed just because it wasn't released overseas.

It's basically like trying to credit Awakening for the Avatar and Children systems when it's the only one brought overseas, yes those existed in that game, but those systems owe their existences to previous games. Without them Awakening likely wouldn't have had those systems in the first place.

Being drawn from does not make those characters more iconic. Jagens dont make jagen more iconic. They make the arcehtype more iconic (barely, if at all). No one is able to more easily recognize or like Jagen because Frederick exists.

Jagen isn't a good example since storywise their roles tend to fluctuate in influence, characters like Gharnef tend to drive the plot a lot more then those like Jagen who tend to be more in supporting roles.

 

[Opossum]

For the record I would say Gharnef is iconic at the very least. At least, by Fire Emblem standards. Dude influenced so many other villains from Jedah to Validar.

 

[A Distant Demon]

The storytelling structure, the archetypes, strategy and other elements are drawn from that game and it set the precedent for how future games in the franchise are developed.

This still means absolutely nothing. Drawing from something does not make the source materiel more iconic. It also means nothing for a character's iconicness.

Jagen isn't a good example since storywise their roles tend to fluctuate in influence, characters like Gharnef tend to drive the plot a lot more then those like Jagen who tend to be more in supporting roles.

Negal doesnt make Gharnef more iconic. Zephiel doesnt make Medius more iconic. What ever. It still stands that drawing from something does not make the source material more well known or popular.

EDIT i dont think gharnef and medius are the right names, but you know what I mean.

 

[ChikoLad]

This whole discussion is funny to watch because it's just people clashing their personal definitions of "iconic" even though there are objective ways to define it or at least narrow it down. Some proposed definitions are more correct than others.

"I'm right and you're wrong" basically.

People are trying way too hard to defend FE Warriors and justify it's decisions at this point, honestly. Don't understand why, if you're happy with the game, go buy it. It came out today.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I liked Walhart and Validar

 

[praline]

Frankly people would be screaming at Nintendo if we had Fates and Awakening characters but they weren’t the royal siblings or Robin, Frederick and Lissa.

 

[Ivander]

Robust doesn't always refer to quantity.

Yes, the roster of Hyrule Warriors was much lower at launch and even with all the DLC and Legends, it's only slightly higher than FEW's base roster. That's true. However, each of these characters were unique instead of having a bunch of semi-clones like FEW. And on top of that, some had more than one weapon style to choose from, each being so different that each of them might as well be considered their own character. So while there's not a lot of characters in Hyrule Warriors (with only 29 as you said), there's actually a lot of options to choose from.

In fact, counting each weapon style as its own "character" (except Master Sword because that's a clone of Link's default style), the grand total would be;

• 20 at launch
• 23 after the free update that gave us Cia, Wizzro and Volga
• 24 because of the Spinner you can get from a Link amiibo
  
• 29 after the first season of DLC (not counting Ganon and Cucco)
• 30 after the free update that gave us Medli
• 36 at Legends' launch
• 42 after the second season of DLC

And again, every single one is unique. Considering how some FEW characters can feel kinda same-y, I'd say Hyrule Warriors managed to be more robust in its variety.

The reason I didn't count the weapon styles is because when people are talking about Fire Emblem's roster, they are talking about the characters specifically. Why else did you think a while ago, people were talking about the roster and who they care about? Even if any of the characters had different weapons to choose from like Hyrule Warriors, giving them a different weapon wouldn't make someone suddenly care for that character(and it'd be petty if it did).
At the same time, didn't we have someone say there were only 2 semi-clones? Which were ones that were added last minute? That would make for a roster of 21 characters, 2 semi-clones and 2 clones(being F.Robin and M.Corrin, right?). That's still a fairly unique roster when compared to Hyrule Warriors Launch characters and weapons. And no, we can't count the ones in the game and planned for DLC as we don't know if they will remain clones/semi-clones.
And on the subject of weapons, we do know that there are weapons planned for DLC. Whether they will be weapons with different movesets like Hyrule Warriors or just straight-up different weapons for the characters to equip has yet to be confirmed, but if they turn out like Hyrule Warriors, that would be 13 weapons which would mean 13 movesets. Although I doubt they would compare to the true beauty that would be Broken Armor Models.

This whole discussion is funny to watch because it's just people clashing their personal definitions of "iconic" even though there are objective ways to define it or at least narrow it down. Some proposed definitions are more correct than others.

"I'm right and you're wrong" basically.

People are trying way too hard to defend FE Warriors and justify it's decisions at this point, honestly. Don't understand why, if you're happy with the game, go buy it. It came out today.

Remember how we used iconic to justify characters for Smash and Sakurai crushed all our dreams.

And using the "people are trying too hard to defend something" card can easily be changed to "people are trying so hard to defile something". So, the "I'm right and you're wrong" card, even if someone isn't trying to defend, defile or justify a decision", applies to both sides. I mean, just by saying "People are trying too hard to defend and justify it" isn't much different from "Look at these idiots trying so hard." And we all are not without arrogance.

So let's have another Smash be announced soon so we all can have our arrogance crushed and ripped apart gloriously by Sakurai.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

People are trying way too hard to defend FE Warriors and justify it's decisions at this point, honestly. Don't understand why, if you're happy with the game, go buy it. It came out today.

People are trying way too hard to criticize FE Warriors and condemn it's decisions at this point, honestly. Don't understand why, if you're unhappy with the game, don't buy it.

 

[Arcanir]

This still means absolutely nothing. Drawing from something does not make the source materiel more iconic.

Then what do you say about Super Metroid? A Link to the Past? And other games of their ilk? Not everyone has played those games, yet they're recognized as one of the most iconic in their respective franchises in part because of their success and their influence on the games that come after them. Without Super Metroid defining the labyrinths of its maps Metroid wouldn't have evolved into the Metroidvania that we adore today, without Link to the Past's story structure we likely wouldn't have gotten games like OoT (which sold even more then it and likely has more rereleases) or WW, and so on. There's no doubting that without Mystery FE would be in a different place then with and as a result that does give it a status that very few other games in the franchise carry because its success and influence are carried throughout the rest of the franchise's history. Same with the characters, Gharnef set the precedence for many villains after him and it's in part because of the role he played in Mystery and how it influenced other villains going forward.

Negal doesnt make Gharnef more iconic. Zephiel doesnt make Medius more iconic. What ever. It still stands that drawing from something does not make the source material more well known or popular.

And this is where we have our difference: iconic doesn't necessarily equal being the most popular. Marth is considered the most iconic lord in the franchise, but in terms of popularity he lost out to at least Lyn, Ike, Hector, Chrom, Roy and a couple others. Despite that, no one would argue that he's not the most iconic lord in the franchise because not only is he the first, he's the one that carries the most clout both as a character and the influence he has on future lords. Roy for instance has his story drawn heavily from Marth's Mystery of the Emblem and likely owes his existence in part to Marth as a result.

Iconic is more then just popularity, it's also how much influence you carry. If you don't play the character's respective game but still feel where they left their mark on the franchise then that means they left a lasting impression that will continue for many years to come. There's a reason why that character is being drawn from, and as a result they keep their presence felt as their legacy continues as things go forward. For that reason I would consider characters like Gharnef to be iconic in the case of his franchise because his influence carried throughout 25 years of its history and it still leaves us with prominent villains within their own games like Nergal and Lyon. I don't think that history and influence should be ignored, there's a presence that the character has, and as long as it continues it definitely can be considered that he's iconic within his own franchise.

 

[powerprotoman]

*man everyones arguing over fire emblem right now.....better start a new animal crossing town*

and on that note tthe town of canvas is for the birds! penguins and Eagles to be specific...also one lone horse who lives by himself

and now the townasfolk of canvas

Spoiler

Amelia

Aurora

Hopper

Pierce

and papi

my towns fruti are cherrys btw

lookforward to my ongoing adventures....you know post day 3 kinda boring the first 2 days

 

[A Distant Demon]

Iconic is more then just popularity,

Which is exactly why I mentioned recognizability, which is basically the literal definition of iconicness.

Not everyone would vote for Marth on a popularity poll, but nearly every Nintendo fans can recognize him, hence he is the most iconic.

 

[Arcanir]

So aside from Black Knight.

All the iconic villains are from FE1 and/or 3 you say?

Offhand I'd say pretty much, there are popular ones like Lyon and Arvis, but they don't have that same level of influence like Gharnef.

Which is exactly why I mentioned recognizability, which is basically the literal definition of iconicness.

Not everyone would vote for Marth on a popularity poll, but most Nintendo fans can recognize him.

Except they are recognizable, just because Mystery is not released overseas yet doesn't dismiss its status over a large group of the fanbase that has contributed to its success since its beginning, trying to do so is essentially ignoring a large part of its history.

 

[Opossum]

Basically I just consider the iconic Fire Emblem characters the ones IS actually pushes and therefore appear in secondary stuff.


Hence why I'd say Gharnef is. IS uses him a lot. Not iconic in the normal sense, but in the Fire Emblem sense, certainly.

 

[Z25]

Apparently this is from an FE Warriors guide on some gaming website.

"Big Brother is now Big Sister!"

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

"Big Brother is now Big Sister!"

"WHOA! EVEN BETTER!"

 

[ChikoLad]

The reason I didn't count the weapon styles is because when people are talking about Fire Emblem's roster, they are talking about the characters specifically. Why else did you think a while ago, people were talking about the roster and who they care about? Even if any of the characters had different weapons to choose from like Hyrule Warriors, giving them a different weapon wouldn't make someone suddenly care for that character(and it'd be petty if it did).
At the same time, didn't we have someone say there were only 2 semi-clones? Which were ones that were added last minute? That would make for a roster of 21 characters, 2 semi-clones and 2 clones(being F.Robin and M.Corrin, right?). That's still a fairly unique roster when compared to Hyrule Warriors Launch characters and weapons. And no, we can't count the ones in the game and planned for DLC as we don't know if they will remain clones/semi-clones.
And on the subject of weapons, we do know that there are weapons planned for DLC. Whether they will be weapons with different movesets like Hyrule Warriors or just straight-up different weapons for the characters to equip has yet to be confirmed, but if they turn out like Hyrule Warriors, that would be 13 weapons which would mean 13 movesets. Although I doubt they would compare to the true beauty that would be Broken Armor Models.


Remember how we used iconic to justify characters for Smash and Sakurai crushed all our dreams.

And using the "people are trying too hard to defend something" card can easily be changed to "people are trying so hard to defile something". So, the "I'm right and you're wrong" card, even if someone isn't trying to defend, defile or justify a decision", applies to both sides. I mean, just by saying "People are trying too hard to defend and justify it" isn't much different from "Look at these idiots trying so hard." And we all are not without arrogance.

So let's have another Smash be announced soon so we all can have our arrogance crushed and ripped apart gloriously by Sakurai.

People are trying way too hard to criticize FE Warriors and condemn it's decisions at this point, honestly. Don't understand why, if you're unhappy with the game, don't buy it.

The "I'm right and you're wrong" thing was in reference to the nature of the iconic argument - I'm reading most of the posts people are making and most people aren't properly articulating what they deem as iconic to begin with (let alone WHY that criteria should deem something as iconic), so literally, it's just people saying "I'm right and you're wrong". That's not constructive in the least.

And I'm saying people are trying too hard to defend it because they are derailing things into this whole other discussion about iconicness in a prolonged attempt to defend the game. That's trying too hard.

The only thing I did to """"""defile"""""" the game was post an image I saw on reddit and make a joke about the poor graphics design practices of the FE Warriors poster and how it's inadvertently a result of the game's lacking roster. I did not have to try too hard for that one, I can tell you that.

Also, really like the healthy mindset of "expressing criticism/dissatisfaction = defiling". Never change, NintenZone. Never change.

With this in mind, I am going nip the iconic argument in the bud.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/iconic

"Iconic, adjective - relating to or of the nature of an icon"

OK so what's an icon?

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/icon

"Icon, noun - A person or thing regarded as a representative symbol or as worthy of veneration."

Popularity and recognisability do not define a character's status as an icon. They can contribute, but they aren't a primary factor.

All that matters is that they are a representative of the franchise or that the fandom at large deems them as worthy of being highly praised.

The "representative symbol" aspect is basically entirely controlled by IS and Nintendo. They choose who they want to market as an FE icon. They make this decision based on a variety of factors, but all that matters is they make the call. Characters like Tharja - yes, Tharja - can be deemed as iconic purely because they are used ALL OF THE TIME in promotional material and such, and so, they have made their mark and have an influence. Look at how we are getting a Christmas Tharja unit in FE Heroes, for example. Or how she has her own high-quality figure made in her image. She is a literal icon. She is used for literal iconography.

The "worthy of veneration" aspect is reflected in the fandom - the fandom isn't a silent or motionless force. They themselves can make a character iconic. This happens through constant discussion of that character or through fan art or other fan works revolving around that character. This makes it so that character becomes pretty ingrained with the identity of said series. It doesn't even matter if Nintendo and IS don't use them, the fact remains that, in circles where Fire Emblem would be a relevant discussion topic, these characters would be brought up pretty quickly. While I realise I am not the best person to talk about older characters, I will say - Hector is a really good example of a character who fits this bill. It doesn't take long for someone to bring up Hector in a Fire Emblem discussion. You look up Fire Emblem fanart, and I guarantee you won't spend long there before you find Hector artwork. He's super iconic, and people love him, and he is tied to the identity of the Fire Emblem franchise. If someone asks a Fire Emblem fan "who's one of the coolest Fire Emblem characters out there?", there is a very good chance they'd mention Hector. The fact IS hasn't used him much (even in Heroes, he more or less is like any other character, save for being powerful) doesn't change this fact at all - when people think "Fire Emblem", Hector isn't far off in their mind. Hector has helped shape the Fire Emblem franchise as it is today. Arcanir has made a lot of fantastic examples of characters who have influenced the Fire Emblem franchise in this thread too.

This is about as objective as you will get. You can't argue with the Oxford Dictionary when it comes to a definition.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I think people that are not fans of Zelda know who Ganondorf is

But I like the FE games and I don't know most of the characters people listed

If you think of that as iconic

 

[Z25]

Well apparently this can happen in GO:

Spoiler: large image

"I wonder where that Sableye is....

 

[A Distant Demon]

This is about as objective as you will get. You can't argue with the Oxford Dictionary when it comes to a definition.

>implying words don't have multiple definitions
>implying words don't have moultiple meanings over multiple different contexts
>implying only one dictionary matters.

Merriam Webster basically just defines it as recognizable for instance lol

 

[ChikoLad]

>implying words don't have multiple definitions
>implying words don't have moultiple meanings over multiple different contexts
>implying only one dictionary matters.

Merriam Webster basically just defines it as recognizable for instance lol

http://public.oed.com/about/

The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) is widely regarded as the accepted authority on the English language. It is an unsurpassed guide to the meaning, history, and pronunciation of 600,000 words— past and present—from across the English-speaking world.

As a historical dictionary, the OED is very different from Dictionaries of current English, in which the focus is on present-day meanings. You’ll still find present-day meanings in the OED, but you’ll also find the history of individual words, and of the language—traced through 3 million quotations, from classic literature and specialist periodicals to film scripts and cookery books.

The OED started life more than 150 years ago. Today, the dictionary is in the process of its first major revision. Updates revise and extend the OED at regular intervals, each time subtly adjusting our image of the English language.

If you don't realise the OED is the leading authority on the English language, you shouldn't be trying to argue with people over the definitions of words to begin with.

 

[powerprotoman]

Well apparently this can happen in GO:

Spoiler: large image

"I wonder where that Sableye is....

im sorry but i just had too, i mean come on its too perfect not to use that, also lucky finding a sableye

 

[A Distant Demon]

http://public.oed.com/about/



If you don't realise the OED is the leading authority on the English language, you shouldn't be trying to argue with people over the definitions of words to begin with.

If you don't realize words have broad meanings with multiple usages over multiple contexts, you shouldn't be trying to argue with people over the definitions of words to begin with.

 

[Mythra]

Yo, the one true Dictionary is Urban Dictionary.

 

[ChikoLad]

If you don't realize words have broad meanings with multiple usages over multiple contexts, you shouldn't be trying to argue with people over the definitions of words to begin with.

Except I do realise this, and if you would actually go back and read my post regarding Fire Emblem and icons, I applied the correct definition for that context and fully articulated how it applies to said context.

Icon does have other meanings, such as the computing definition which is a symbol or graphic used to represent functions of a computer program (like an undo button). However, none of these definitions remotely apply to this discussion.

Also "mimicking what others say except twisting it to the opposite meaning" is not an intellectual argument. It makes you look like a child who's trying to get back at someone for the sake of it. It's a non-argument. Drop that habit, please. It's tiresome and just plummets my respect for any argument you could have made to zero.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So uh...

Remember when allison said the FE fanbase was the least chill fanbase.

I think this is the best example of that.

We're getting a little tense here, don't ya think?

 

[AmericanDJ]

It looks like I'm the only one not arguing about FEW's decisions at the moment.

Anyway, I beat Ventus' story in BBS today.
I honestly think I like his playstyle the most out of the 3 protagonists so far (The only other one I've done is Terra, so far)
It also appears that I am now very close to getting the Keyslinger trophy, which is good because I need that to unlock the secret ending and secret episode.

----------------------

I also beat FFX today.
Man, I'm really glad that I played this game, because I loved it.
I suppose you could say that this was the first traditional turn-based FF I've played.
What's surprising to me is that I put 64 hours into FFXV, but I put 80 hours into FFX. It was partly because there was so much to do, and partly because I didn't want it to end because I was enjoying it so much.
Overall, this game has been an experience that I don't think that I will forget anytime soon.

 

[ChikoLad]

So uh...

Remember when allison said the FE fanbase was the least chill fanbase.

I think this is the best example of that.

We're getting a little tense here, don't ya think?

Oh I'm perfectly calm. So calm I'm about to go to bed, in fact. :V

This isn't reflective of anything in the FE fanbase though. This exact same thing comes up in other fandoms all of the time, in fact it's quite common among Nintendo circles for the subject of icons to come up. Seems especially important a criteria for characters to get into things. I've had to make a very similar post among Mario circles too.

In other news, Niles is so much of a perv that Robin had to turn into Leo to tell him to calm down.

https://twitter.com/WhiteTheVII/status/921480697046552576

 

[DarkAuraful]

I also beat FFX today.
Man, I'm really glad that I played this game, because I loved it.
I suppose you could say that this was the first traditional turn-based FF I've played.
What's surprising to me is that I put 64 hours into FFXV, but I put 80 hours into FFX. It was partly because there was so much to do, and partly because I didn't want it to end because I was enjoying it so much.
Overall, this game has been an experience that I don't think that I will forget anytime soon.

80 hours in FFX alone? Or both that and X-2 together in the HD Remaster? I remember playing a little bit of it at the beginning but I'm interested in the HD Remaster.

 

[AmericanDJ]

80 hours in FFX alone? Or both that and X-2 together in the HD Remaster? I remember playing a little bit of it at the beginning but I'm interested in the HD Remaster.

Just FFX, although I did do quite a lot of the side content (mainly getting the sigils for the celestial weapons and getting all of the aeons).