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Nintendo Officially Sponsors Apex 2015!

MegaMissingno

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 28, 2014
Messages
574
NNID
missingno
Regarding the amount of viable stages, although Project M has more of them, the stages are mostly boring because their stage hazards were removed. The stage hazards make each of the stages that have them more different and unique compared to just making a different arrangement of platforms. I dislike that Norfair, Pokemon Stadium 2, and other stages don't have their stage hazards in Project M.
Um, good. We like it this way. Hazards are a bad thing that disrupt the flow of the match, and when the devs have the power to remove them they might as well. I prefer fighting my opponent, not the stage. I don't see the merit in a giant wall of lava or fans that change the game's physics.

There are plenty of stages in PM that offer dynamic elements without being disruptive: Green Hill Zone, Norfair, Yoshi's Island, Dracula's Castle, etc. These are well designed and interesting, they don't kill, they don't mess with physics, and they don't interrupt the pace of the match. A minimalist design philosophy is a great approach to stage design, and they manage to do a lot with simple concepts. Any experienced PM player can tell you that these are still very different in terms of matchups, just because they're subtle doesn't mean they're not unique.

Besides, page 2 is still full of tons of gimmick stages, as is the top row of page 1. They even made new ones like Hanenbow and Infinite Glacier. There are still plenty of those, and it should be a good enough balance to keep those who want simple stages and those who want gimmicks happy. Is that not good enough for you? You're basically just complaining that they didn't only cater to you by not giving the rest of us simple stages.
 

Pureownege75

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
229
Location
Gangplank Galleon
And, y'know, all the other things I just mentioned? The physics may be Melee, but there's also so much more to it besides just the physics. Calling it "just Melee" when there's so much more than that is factually incorrect.

Melee is the inspiration behind the project, but that doesn't mean they just stopped there. They've done far, far, far more with it than "just Melee". Are the alt costumes "just Melee"? Are revamped characters with brand new mechanics like Lucas, Lucario, Ivysaur, Snake, and more "just Melee"? Are the new stages "just Melee"? Is Turbo mode "just Melee"? Is All-Star Versus "just Melee"? Is wraparound stamina "just Melee"? Are DACUS and aerial glide tosses "just Melee"?
Yeah, well alot of the stuff that you metnioned aren't fundamental gameplay differences. The games, from a gameplay perspective (as I said), are almost one and the same. They play the same way. I'm not arguing about all of those bells and whistles. The core gameplay IS MELEE with more characters. It's like trying to argue the difference between two Pokemon games. Yes there are differences between generations, but the fundamentals are the same, you play the game the same way, regardless of the other stuff added
 

LimitCrown

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 30, 2014
Messages
636
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LimitCrown
3DS FC
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Um, good. We like it this way. Hazards are a bad thing that disrupt the flow of the match, and when the devs have the power to remove them they might as well. I prefer fighting my opponent, not the stage. I don't see the merit in a giant wall of lava or fans that change the game's physics.

There are plenty of stages in PM that offer dynamic elements without being disruptive: Green Hill Zone, Norfair, Yoshi's Island, Dracula's Castle, etc. These are well designed and interesting, they don't kill, they don't mess with physics, and they don't interrupt the pace of the match. A minimalist design philosophy is a great approach to stage design, and they manage to do a lot with simple concepts. Any experienced PM player can tell you that these are still very different in terms of matchups, just because they're subtle doesn't mean they're not unique.

Besides, page 2 is still full of tons of gimmick stages, as is the top row of page 1. They even made new ones like Hanenbow and Infinite Glacier. There are still plenty of those, and it should be a good enough balance to keep those who want simple stages and those who want gimmicks happy. Is that not good enough for you? You're basically just complaining that they didn't only cater to you by not giving the rest of us simple stages.
How do those stages that you listed have dynamic elements? They all share the same thing in common: a large main platform with one or two smaller platforms that may or may not move. Infinite Glacier is the same except the surface of the stage is slippery and there is a bottomless pit in the middle of the stage if the hinged platform opens. Hanenbow is basically what was the rightmost platforms of the stage. Most of those stages you listed aren't really unique when they're designed very similarly to each other.

You may as well replace the "we" in your second sentence with "super competitive players". Would most people who play a Super Smash Bros. game prefer to have a lot of the stages have similar layouts? Probably not.

The lava in Norfair in Smash 4 is telegraphed so you can see when it will appear, and it isn't difficult to adjust to the change in falling speeds caused by the Flying-type transformation of Pokemon Stadium 2. Also, not every stage needs to be "viable".
 
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BestNameEver

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 15, 2014
Messages
22
Location
PA Philadelphia
NNID
Gunter7-14-10
Excuse me if I'm intruding in a conversation here, and this is purely out of curiosity, but what would you consider genuine support from Nintendo, that would be within reason?

Well first lets acknowledge that the main reason anyone sponsors anything is mainly for money rather than out of the goodness of their heart.

First, the fact that the creator of the series is clearly indifferent towards the scene and still doesn't truly understand it (hence his "go play street fighter" remark) is important to note and truly disappointing compared to Ono.

Now, let's look at how they handled the competitive scene with Smash 4. The invitational obviously wasn't done for the competitive scene. They are yet to host a single tournament using a standard ruleset, which is telling. For Glory was lazily put together. The lack of a leaderboard is disappointing and demotivating. To tie in with a lazy FG was the fact that little effort was put into making tournament viable stages. Luckily we got an okay starter list (one too many flat stages) and a meh counterpick list (delly, DK 64, and sky are all very prone to camping and 2nd part of Castle is really annoying). Next there's the customs issue. We were provided a means to cut landing lag, one of the main E3 complaints. Great. Except 0 easy means of accessing customs were provided and now all that additional content is considered irrelevant to competitive play. Last, the biggest disappointment is obviously no balance patches now. People are keeping their fingers crossed for a Mewtwo patch, but the lack of interest on Sakurai's part is disappointing. I'm not saying the game will die because of it. The meta could be dominated by Diddy, Sheik, Yoshi, Sonic, Rosie, Ness, and whatever and it would do just fine. The fact that there isn't much interest in just fixing Diddy's uair (literally fox's uair but better) tells me they don't care.
So, Nintendo could 1) Fix FG 2) Provide reasonable, quick means to access customs for tournaments 3) Give a **** about patches

Now we come to other Smash games. They should be showing equal support to all Smash games at Apex. Correct me if I'm wrong (there's probably some legal complication), but they could willingly show complete ignorance towards PM and just pretend it wasn't there if they really wanted to. I get the impression that the only game they care about having main stage is Smash 4.

So nothing Nintendo has done so far is at all significant and certainly not worth the loss of PM imo. It's frustrating to think of Nintendo just waltzing into a community that doesn't need them, doing nothing substantial (so far at least) to help the community, and getting PM kicked out. I don't even play PM seriously but it's easy to tell how salt inducing and how much that sucks.
 

BestNameEver

Smash Rookie
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22
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PA Philadelphia
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Gunter7-14-10
You may as well replace the "we" in your second sentence with "super competitive players". Would most people who play a Super Smash Bros. game prefer to have a lot of the stages have similar layouts? Probably not.
There are plenty of casual players I know who enjoy PM's stages just fine. They can take or leave those elements, and PM has plenty of other stages on the second page for casual play.

Anyone who has a deep understanding of Smash does see uniqueness of the viable stages in PM are. You don't need to make stages gimmicky to make them game changing to MUs. If you think stage hazards only can make stages unique you don't have a good understanding of the game.

Stage hazards are flat out bad for competitive play. They're nearly always inconsistent in Smash (a rare example of a consistent hazard is the bumper in peach's castle 64). They're a 3rd party element in a match between 2 parties that disrupt the interaction between these players.
 
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MegaMissingno

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 28, 2014
Messages
574
NNID
missingno
How do those stages that you listed have dynamic elements? They all share the same thing in common: a large main platform with one or two smaller platforms that may or may not move. Infinite Glacier is the same except the surface of the stage is slippery and there is a bottomless pit in the middle of the stage if the hinged platform opens. Hanenbow is basically what was the rightmost platforms of the stage. Most of those stages you listed aren't really unique when they're designed very similarly to each other.
Green Hill Zone is a deceptively vertical stage with an unusual high arc on the platform. Despite having only one platform, it's high up and goes higher.

Norfair just sorta drifts around nice and slow, slowest of all the moving stages, and is asymmetric. It's a subtle effect but pretty neat as the stage gradually shifts to and fro. It's also one of the smaller stages in PM for characters that like it small.

Yoshi's Island features the large tilting platform, and the ghosts that come and go. The slopes can be tricky for projectiles and wavedashes. Additionally, the support ghosts are now on a fully predictable timer, giving the player the ability to plan around them instead of leaving it to luck.

Dracula's Castle is large (perhaps a bit too large, most tournaments have dropped it due to this, but I'm still citing it as a good example of interesting design for the platforms) and constantly shifting between many different layouts and patterns. It shows that quite a lot can be done with just three platforms.

Despite having simple mechanics, they all use them very differently and create very different matchups. Simplicity is a virtue here, they limit a stage to just having one or two dynamic elements elements and then explore how to make them count. It's a very elegant design philosophy that proves how less can be more. You don't need hazards, physics shenanigans, or RNG to create interesting and varied stages. There are plenty of other ways to accomplish that.

You may as well replace the "we" in your second sentence with "super competitive players". Would most people who play a Super Smash Bros. game prefer to have a lot of the stages have similar layouts? Probably not.

The lava in Norfair in Smash 4 is telegraphed so you can see when it will appear, and it isn't difficult to adjust to the change in falling speeds caused by the Flying-type transformation of Pokemon Stadium 2. Also, not every stage needs to be "viable".
Well, given how popular For Glory seems to be, I dunno, apparently there are quite a number of people who are cool with having only one stage at all. By comparison just PM's starter stages alone are tons more varied than that.

But more importantly, and as I said before, you're still forgetting the top row and page 2. You still get the gimmick stages there. That's a healthy mix of both types of stages, shouldn't everyone be happy with that? What's the problem? It really sounds to me like you're just complaining that you want all the stages to have bigger gimmicks. To which I'll paraphrase your own words and say not every stage needs them.
 

Novaremnant

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 9, 2014
Messages
11
Again, you are blinded by anger. The argument is not "who is doing it more" but whether it is right to do it at all.

Two wrongs do not make a right. Besides, the Melee and PM community has recieved a lot of **** from the Brawl community. It's not a one way street you try to make it out to be. The victim act is getting old. You're a backroomer, someone who is supposed to represent part of the smash community. Don't be part of the problem..
At the last VGBC stream I watched, Smash 4 players wouldn't stop harassing Project M viewers.
...
 

JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines)

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 20, 2014
Messages
182
Location
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania
Most of you need to look at the long run, yes this will make a lot of people mad for now but for a tournament like Apex to get sponsorship from Nintendo is HUGE! This will do wonders for the long run! Sometimes you need to make sacrifices to improve things but I promise that it'll be worth it in the long run.

Biggest round of applause to the Project M team for being good sports, as much as it must hurt I'm glad you guys showing great appreciation to Nintendo nothing less!

This is coming from a Melee player who loves Project M BTW!
Finally, someone who understands :awesome::awesome::awesome::awesome:
 

drewilliam

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 14, 2014
Messages
78
Location
Flagstaff, AZ
NNID
hollowords
@ Karnu Karnu @ JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines) JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines) Give some concrete reasons of how it will be better instead of just saying it will be better. I gave you concrete reasons of how it's worse, your argument has no validity.

@Cahalan I agree that if PM isn't aloud at Apex, that it would be nice to see it at a different tournament or unofficially on the side somehow at Apex
 

JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines)

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 20, 2014
Messages
182
Location
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania
@ Karnu Karnu @ JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines) JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines) Give some concrete reasons of how it will be better instead of just saying it will be better. I gave you concrete reasons of how it's worse, your argument has no validity.

@Cahalan I agree that if PM isn't aloud at Apex, that it would be nice to see it at a different tournament or unofficially on the side somehow at Apex
I already said in my first post that Nintendo can help out with huge bot bonuses (Something Smash is lacking compared to other esport games), the ability to stream all smash games, getting plenty of setups for tournaments, heck Nintendo could eve start a Smash circuit. Not only that but Nintendo can help expose the Smash community more than we can.
 

drewilliam

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
78
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hollowords
@ JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines) JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines) We know Nintendo is just cashing in on the craze and they don't really care about what the fans really want (compared to the fans themselves). We have seen the 2 or 3 tournaments officially run by Nintendo with items on and 4-for-all's. Also, they purposely take out competitive elements from Melee in Brawl and 4, nearly shut down one of the biggest Smash Bros tournaments of all time, and now you're ready to accept them with open arms just because of money??? There are plenty of other sponsors who don't interfere.
 
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Laggalot101

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 23, 2014
Messages
122
Location
Netherlands
3DS FC
1418-6741-7161
Ok, though I only half agree on most of these things, I understand and respect your point. Though I have a few more questions if you don't mind.

First, the most recent (and first, for that matter) balance patch we got was mid-late November for the 3DS version, and was already built in for the Wii U version. That's about one and a half months ago. I don't know what's the standard on this matter for most fighting games, but how frequent should balance patches be, then? It should also be considered that balance patches render saved replays unplayable (which will cause some frowns here and there). And of course, balance changes all the time, especially if players constantly have to learn a changed metagame. Wouldn't frequent balance patches prevent a metagame from ever properly settling?

Second, why should all Smash games receive equal support? You have Brawl, for instance, which just doesn't generate that much interest anymore, and Smash 64 doesn't do much better, it seems. Melee and Smash 4 seem the obvious ones to support most. Melee is a given due to its competitive reputation and interest. Smash 4, meanwhile, is obviously new and being produced and sold, meaning that supporting it is potentially directly profitable to Nintendo and as you said, Nintendo wants profit (after all, it's a company). So again, why should all Smash games receive equal support?

And last (not really a question), the idea that Project: M and Nintendo's support could somehow exist within the same event without Nintendo needing to recognize Project: M seems far-fetched to me. And I mean really far-fetched. In truth, I don't know enough to say it's not possible, but that just makes too much sense. By that I mean, if that would really be possible, there'd be litterally no logical reason (that I can see) that this option would not be taken. Therefore, I see this as impossible until I see solid evidence for the opposite.
 
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GameFreak164X

Smash Rookie
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Jul 9, 2014
Messages
21
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GameFreak164X
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There will be a lot of Diddy Kongs just like there is a lot of Fox and Shiek in Melee and Metaknight in Brawl. The Diddy Kongs aren't going to make it that far and even the top players using them in recent tournaments have been losing to people using "low tier" characters like Charizard.
Glad to hear that Smash 4 is balanced enough to not be dominated by one character, and that low tiers have a chance.
 

GameFreak164X

Smash Rookie
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GameFreak164X
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@ JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines) JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines) We know Nintendo is just cashing in on the craze and they don't really care about what the fans really want (compared to the fans themselves). We have seen the 2 or 3 tournaments officially run by Nintendo with items on and 4-for-all's. Also, they purposely take out competitive elements from Melee in Brawl and 4, nearly shut down one of the biggest Smash Bros tournaments of all time, and now you're ready to accept them with open arms just because of money??? There are plenty of other sponsors who don't interfere.
The invitational was the only tournament with items on and free-for-alls, which was at E3 so they were trying to also show off how the generally played as well as showing off the competitive community. Also, you do know that Nintendo SIGNIFICANTLY altered the way Smash 4 played after the feedback taken from the pros at E3, so try to appreciate what is great about Smash 4, rather than hating what's not in the game. (Also, are you still made about the EVO 2013 fiasco? Things have significantly changed since then)
 

GameFreak164X

Smash Rookie
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People have been wanting forever to see Nintendo supporting the competitive community and now that they finally fu**** do it it's just a "conspiracy and a complot" they're doing just to ditch PM out of tourneys?

This community sometimes, I swear to god...
IKR
 

drewilliam

Smash Apprentice
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78
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Flagstaff, AZ
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hollowords
@ GameFreak164X GameFreak164X No, they hosted a nation wide open tournament through gamestops after the game was already out for a while and until the grand finals there was items on and/or 4-for-all's and/or time instead of stock. Search Smash 3DS open tournament. There was also another tournament before the game came out with the same story (the second ended up as bowser vs bowser on battlefield in GrandFinals). And why would you defend Nintendo? So far money is the only positive (which they haven't even brought that much at all yet) over a mountain of negatives.

In other words the only positive aspect of their official support hasn't even happened yet, but the negatives are already here in the banning of PM, their less than competitive rules for their hosted events, and their ugly past.
 
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GameFreak164X

Smash Rookie
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Jul 9, 2014
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@ GameFreak164X GameFreak164X No, they hosted a nation wide open tournament through gamestops after the game was already out for a while and until the grand finals there was items on and/or 4-for-all's and/or time instead of stock. Search Smash 3DS open tournament. There was also another tournament before the game came out with the same story (the second ended up as bowser vs bowser on battlefield in GrandFinals). And why would you defend Nintendo? So far money is the only positive (which they haven't even brought that much at all yet) over a mountain of negatives.

In other words the only positive aspect of their official support hasn't even happened yet, but the negatives are already here in the banning of PM, their less than competitive rules for their hosted events, and their ugly past.
First of all, Nintendo has had an ugly past with the competitive community, sure, but have things not changed since then? Nintendo is being more open with the competitive community and fans of other games in general as of late, they're paying attention. Changes were made Smash 4 as a result of the Smash Invitational, people said Smash 4 felt like Brawl 2.0 at E3. Second, PM is a mod, Nintendo is not legally allowed to sponsor it due to licensing rights. Third, Nintendo's tournaments may have been more casually focused, but does that stop APEX or EVO from having a competitive rulesets. No. Nintendo's support can only help the community grow and benefit the community.
 

drewilliam

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hollowords
1) you're obviously right about their change in stance. But if making a better version of brawl is all they have to offer its personally not enough to make up for banning PM

2) smash 4 will always feel like brawl. But I appreciate the balance changes

3) right Nintendo can't legally sponsor a PM tourney. A great reason for them to stay out of it.

4) yeah. Apex will continue being good w or wo Nintendo. But it would have been a lot better wo them. It basically would be the same but w another game equally as popular as smash 4.
 

GOLDENMOP

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 21, 2014
Messages
54
Nintendo Supporting the Competitive Smash scene is much more important than Project M in all honesty.
Lol, no. The community lived for over a decade without any recognition from nintendo. Nintendo doesn't need to be a part of the community, we've already proven that. And if they're going to cut off a large part of the community, they don't deserve to either. Besides, it's not like nintendo is going to stay with them either. In less than a year Nintendo will forget about the scene already. I love Nintendo, but I don't like when they screw over some of their fans.
 

Patrick Ray

Smash Apprentice
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136
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TheAmericaMan
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Lol, no. The community lived for over a decade without any recognition from nintendo. Nintendo doesn't need to be a part of the community, we've already proven that. And if they're going to cut off a large part of the community, they don't deserve to either. Besides, it's not like nintendo is going to stay with them either. In less than a year Nintendo will forget about the scene already. I love Nintendo, but I don't like when they screw over some of their fans.
I never said it was necessary for Nintendo to support the competitive scene. Only that it can make such a huge.impact in doing so that it's not something to simply be taken lightly. I do love project M but I see it as a mod that is not a mandatory staple in competitive smash. Obviously if Nintendo were to pull out of this then for sure I would be glad for PM to come back. However if Nintendo sticks with the competitive scene then I believe it better than keeping PM. A future of competitive smash will always exist with the way it is currently.progressing. A future supported by Nintendo would cause extensively more potential.
 
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LimitCrown

Smash Ace
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636
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LimitCrown
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There are plenty of casual players I know who enjoy PM's stages just fine. They can take or leave those elements, and PM has plenty of other stages on the second page for casual play.

Anyone who has a deep understanding of Smash does see uniqueness of the viable stages in PM are. You don't need to make stages gimmicky to make them game changing to MUs. If you think stage hazards only can make stages unique you don't have a good understanding of the game.

Stage hazards are flat out bad for competitive play. They're nearly always inconsistent in Smash (a rare example of a consistent hazard is the bumper in peach's castle 64). They're a 3rd party element in a match between 2 parties that disrupt the interaction between these players.
Do you think that just because the casual players that you know enjoy Project M's stages, most other players would prefer the stages to be like this? The different types of stage hazards and gimmicks that the stages have would add more to the stages' identities and make them unique compared to simple aesthetic differences and slightly different arrangements of platforms. You're only seeing things from a very competitive player's perspective.
 
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drewilliam

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Project M is Melee 2. Smash 4 is Brawl 2. Look at Melee after 3 smash titles, more popular than ever. Look at Brawl after 2 titles, near death. Bottom line: Project M is a bigger deal than Brawl 2. When Nintendo's support means the banning the 2nd most popular Smash game from what started as a grassroots tournament people should be upset.
 

IvyDivyHorkyDorky

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 31, 2014
Messages
24
Project M is Melee 2. Smash 4 is Brawl 2. Look at Melee after 3 smash titles, more popular than ever. Look at Brawl after 2 titles, near death. Bottom line: Project M is a bigger deal than Brawl 2. When Nintendo's support means the banning the 2nd most popular Smash game from what started as a grassroots tournament people should be upset.
It sounds like the best solution for people who can't understand that Nintendo needs to make money to make games to produce assets to be modded, is for Project M to ditch the Nintendo characters and do it's own thing. I.E. League of Legends to War Craft 3. When it get's to the point that the "community" thinks that the mod takes priority over a game that was actually created by Nintendo, they probably shouldn't be using those characters anymore and make the game they want, free of Nintendo's involvement.

I don't know... I'm really excited to see the diverse play styles of Smash 4 characters. I guess to me it seems unfair that Brawl gets so much flack while it's characters get ripped and absorbed without appreciating how clever they play compared to Melee, yet Melee will always be superior in the majorities eyes. Now we have neat characters such as a disjointed tandem companion, a fighter with a super meter, a swordsmen that can change his attributes on the fly, and a yoga instructor with an absurdly hard to read form! Those will probably just be taken too. "Thanks Smash 4 we don't need you... except for assets! *yoink*." This is one of the worst cases of biting the hand that feeds that I have ever witnessed and it makes me sad ;_; ...
 
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BestNameEver

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May 15, 2014
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Do you think that just because the casual players that you know enjoy Project M's stages, most other players would prefer the stages to be like this? The different types of stage hazards and gimmicks that the stages have would add more to the stages' identities and make them unique compared to simple aesthetic differences and slightly different arrangements of platforms. You're only seeing things from a very competitive player's perspective.
It's not a matter of perspective, the stages in PM ARE unique with key, MU changing differences. Feel free to 1) say those differences aren't enough for you or 2) stay willfully ignorant, but the differences ARE there.

Same goes for you, that was my point in saying I know casual players who enjoy PM's stages. You don't speak for everyone either.
 

MegaMissingno

Smash Ace
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Jul 28, 2014
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574
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missingno
Changes were made Smash 4 as a result of the Smash Invitational, people said Smash 4 felt like Brawl 2.0 at E3.
Source? What changes were made? I didn't see anything different between the invitational and now. And I mean it still feels like Brawl 2.0 to me and I know I'm not alone in feeling that way, whatever they did (if anything) wasn't enough.
Do you think that just because the casual players that you know enjoy Project M's stages, most other players would prefer the stages to be like this? The different types of stage hazards and gimmicks that the stages have would add more to the stages' identities and make them unique compared to simple aesthetic differences and slightly different arrangements of platforms. You're only seeing things from a very competitive player's perspective.
I've told you three times now that page 2 is still there and you've yet to acknowledge that. Right now we do have both, and if you somehow have a problem with both then I don't know what to say because that's just selfish.
 
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EpixAura

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
474
Location
Greenville, NC
Hang on a minute. What tournaments have you seen people lose to because of rage and only rage? Which players are you referring to and did they lose the championship? If you're going to make statements referencing your first-hand account, please provide evidence. Failure to provide an abundance of specific matches and players means you're making up scenarios and numbers to benefit your argument. Also, you're saying that rage only benefits the losing player? How about the winning player who's taken a stock or two and is at 100++%?? Isn't rage benefiting the winning player in that scenario, therefore affirming your statement that "the winning player deserves to win and the losing player deserves to lose"? Again, you're only focusing on one scenario in order to strengthen your argument which makes your point(s) flawed at the most fundamental level.

How exactly does the new ledge mechanic prevent punishing recoveries again? Please elaborate because I play smash 4 and I am still able to punish recoveries, granted it is not in the same fashion as melee, PM or brawl. Lastly, what is it that makes lucario noncompetitive by design again? What traits/skills are you referring to and how do they hinder his viability?
Expecting me to provide evidence of Rage being a deciding factor is a bit much. I'd rather stop before my walls of text become full on novels. However, the tournament I was primarily thinking of was KTAR, where M2K's Diddy made numerous comebacks because of Rage. Of course he didn't win by Rage alone, it's not like M2K is just some random mashing buttons. However, these players were generally outplaying him, and died to moves that wouldn't have killed otherwise. Saying that because I don't provide evidence, I absolutely must be making things up is flawed to say the least.
In the situation where the player is a stock or two up and at 100+%, odds are Rage is just going to mess with his combos more than do actual good. The increased knockback can help with maintaining stage position, but other than that it's not really doing much at low percents, and if the opponent is a full stock down ALSO at 100+%, then odds are the game isn't salvageable at that point anyway. It doesn't always benefit to losing player, but a majority of the time, it does, and it is very impactful.
As for the new ledge making punishing a huge portion of recoveries nearly impossible... that's just how it is. Sure, some are easy to deal with: Falcon, Duck Hunt, and in certain situations, characters like Rosalina, Diddy, Pit, etc. However, these are the minority, and in a lot of situations, their recoveries are still unreasonably safe. Having what was generally considered the best edgeguarding option across all Smash games - grabbing ledge - gone, make things even more difficult. Lastly, Getup options like Rolling and standard getup have many more invincibility frames than in the past, and it's very easy to get punished for mistiming a punish of your own. Basically, it's far too hard to punish your opponent for being in what should be a bad situation.
In regards to Lucario being an uncompetitive character by nature, it's pretty clear to see that Aura is just an atrocious mechanic, similar to Rage but much, much worse. The potential to kill characters at 50 when you're at kill percent and being effectively ungimpable (Lucario can make it back from the bottom corners of the blastzones without a jump on pretty much any stage at slightly over 40%) is incredibly silly, and essentially leads to a situation where you can make a comeback with one luck Bair/Force Palm/Smash when you've only landed a few stray hits the entire match leading up to that point. Basically, it makes it very easy to set up a situation where the better player doesn't win. I don't know where you got the idea that I implied these things hinder his viability. Quite the opposite, in fact, as I believe he very possibly a top 3, and certainly a top 5, character.
 

Karnu

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@ JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines) JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines) All of that is cool, but honestly it doesn't really matter to me personally. I would rather have PM.
What @ JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines) JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines) said!

Well you're not thinking straight then and in fact being selfish to the community. Think about it, for years we have been neglected by Nintendo and its been over a decade and even went as far to ban the melee stream at EVO. This is something we have been waiting for a long time and will be the start of fantastic things to come! Maybe we may even get official support to Project M! Giving Project M up for this event won't kill you, the game and the community. Nintendo's support is our main priority right now
 
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JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines)

Smash Apprentice
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What @ JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines) JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines) said!

Well you're not thinking straight then and in fact being selfish to the community. Think about it, for years we have been neglected by Nintendo and its been over a decade and even went as far to ban the melee stream at EVO. This is something we have been waiting for a long time and will be the start of fantastic things to come! Maybe we may even get official support to Project M! Giving Project M up for this event won't kill you, the game and the community. Nintendo's support is our main priority right now
To add to that, just because PM isn't at CEO and Apex doesn't mean the community is dead. It's up to the people in the Project M community to keep the scene alive by hosting more Project M tournaments or including Project M in the game roster for tournaments.
 

MegaMissingno

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Well you're not thinking straight then and in fact being selfish to the community. Think about it, for years we have been neglected by Nintendo and its been over a decade and even went as far to ban the melee stream at EVO. This is something we have been waiting for a long time and will be the start of fantastic things to come! Maybe we may even get official support to Project M! Giving Project M up for this event won't kill you, the game and the community. Nintendo's support is our main priority right now
Who's this "we" that's been waiting for this? I was perfectly happy with staying grassroots and independent. All I see here anyway is hollow lip service, they're not even doing anything with this sponsorship. If you think that's worth kicking out part of the community, that PM and everyone who plays it should be sacrificed to benefit Smash 4, you are the one being selfish to the community here.

Also, no, Nintendo is never going to officially support PM. Not going to happen ever.
 
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Pureownege75

Smash Journeyman
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Project M is Melee 2. Smash 4 is Brawl 2. Look at Melee after 3 smash titles, more popular than ever. Look at Brawl after 2 titles, near death. Bottom line: Project M is a bigger deal than Brawl 2. When Nintendo's support means the banning the 2nd most popular Smash game from what started as a grassroots tournament people should be upset.
*implying Project M is an actual part of the Super Smash Bros Series*
It's not a true smash game. That's like calling a Pokemon romhack a part of the series. It's not, You guys are lucky that Nintendo hasn't shut down the game by now, but they are being pretty chill about it
 

joshl94

Smash Apprentice
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Aug 19, 2009
Messages
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Project M is, and always has been, an unofficial modification of Nintendo's property. They have every right to do with it as they please. They're actually being pretty nice about the situation as they could have completely ****ing obliterated it if they felt like it. Hell, even Sega or Konami could have done something but they're all looking the other way on this. I get that people are upset regarding Project M but its overall a positive. This will help the scene grow even more. Project M won't die because of this. Its up to its players to keep playing and setting up tournaments for it.
 

DarkStarStorm

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The speculation is over, Apex has announced that Apex 2015 will be sponsored by Nintendo! This partnership represents a first for Nintendo with a grassroots tournament and follows earlier licensing permissions given to Major League Gaming and EVO 2014 during the "Summer of Smash". Current details concerning the deal are few, though Nintendo now joins SmashBoards as a partner in the biggest Smash event of the year and, indeed, in history. As of this morning, more than 1,200 unique Smashers have registered and paid their venue fee to attend Apex 2015.


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More information will be provided in an update within this article as it becomes available. Get excited everyone!

Current Attendance Numbers
Melee 1v1 Total: 725
Brawl 1v1 Total: 96
Smash 4 1v1 Total: 476
Smash 64 1v1 Total: 129
Pokemon Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire VGC total: 51
Ultra Street Fighter IV 1v1 Total: 50
Guilty Gear Xrd 1v1 Total: 27
Killer Instinct 1v1 Total: 10
Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 1v1 Total: 20



SmashCapps is HYPED! Follow him on Twitter and share in the hype!
Of course, no Project M.
 

GameFreak164X

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Jul 9, 2014
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Source? What changes were made? I didn't see anything different between the invitational and now. And I mean it still feels like Brawl 2.0 to me and I know I'm not alone in feeling that way, whatever they did (if anything) wasn't enough.
Shield mechanics are very quick in Smash 4, much faster than any other Smash game. Punishing attacks out of shield is extremely reliable, you cancel a dash with a shield very quickly, and dodge-rolling is extremely fast. The shield mechanics are actually fast enough to make jumping out of shield possible. Sure, wave-dashing, land-cancelling, and lots of other "tech" from Melee is not here, but Nintendo did the next best thing, make the standard Smash mechanics feel as smooth and reliable for competition as possible. Yes, the game is more defensive due to these mechanics, but its defensive because those defensive mechanics are reliable, not because there's no approach options, like in Brawl. Also, many aerials in the game auto cancel extremely fast, giving the players more approach options from the air. Yes, the game is much closer to Brawl than Melee, but the mechanics are more than reliable enough to consider Smash 4 a competitively viable game. Just because its different, doesn't mean its bad.
Here's a video by Maximilian, a well-known Youtube content creator who focuses on fighting games. He played the game at E3, and noticed some significant changes from the E3 demo once the game came out on 3DS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUxQVow5sp8
 
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